WSOP - just won a seat (1 Viewer)

[ditka...mike ditka]

Great job not busting out early!  Any memorable wins?

To be honest, no really memorable hands. Had pocket aces once and kings once but didn't get much play out of them. 

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Martin Jacobson was at the table and seat directly behind me so we sat back to back the whole day. They filmed him a lot. Qui Nguyen was a couple of tables away too

 

[sbonomo]

To be honest, no really memorable hands. Had pocket aces once and kings once but didn't get much play out of them. 

That's frustrating.  I am sure there will be something cool before the tournament is over!

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Just checked the site. I'm in 330th out of the 795 that played yesterday. Chip leader has about 5x my stack.  Probably about 6000 more people will play their first day today and tomorrow 

 

[cockroach]

  No different than folding 56 and watching 665 come on the flop 

Mathematically it is a HELL of a lot different.  

 

[Zegras11]

The correct play is to fold, but with a 100bb I'm going to call 2k.   Looks like be had position on the two prior.   I'm this tournament, you need to play cheap shots for possible large pots.   Two percent is not a big loss if someone squeezes afterwards or he misses.  

 

[kutta]

The correct play is to fold, but with a 100bb I'm going to call 2k.   Looks like be had position on the two prior.   I'm this tournament, you need to play cheap shots for possible large pots.   Two percent is not a big loss if someone squeezes afterwards or he misses.  

The problem is, if he "hits." What does he do if an ace hits the flop? He's probably in  second place at best, but it's really easy to bleed chips in that spot.

 

[gianmarco]

The problem is, if he "hits." What does he do if an ace hits the flop? He's probably in  second place at best, but it's really easy to bleed chips in that spot.

The other problem is what about the 20 other times he gets this kind of hand and it's raised preflop? That 50k turns into 30k REALLY quick making marginal preflop calls like this. Especially at a new table with no reads on the players. 

Sure, it's only 5% of his chips. This hand. But do that over and over and it adds up when you don't hit. And if you aren't going to do it every time, then why this hand? I'm sorry, but in this situation it's not the right play unless you get a read that one of the raisers is ready to donate chips.

 

[Zegras11]

The problem is, if he "hits." What does he do if an ace hits the flop? He's probably in  second place at best, but it's really easy to bleed chips in that spot.

If he hits the flush on the flop, an ace can't hit.  is that what you meant?

 

[Galileo]

Watching Day 1B...Vanessa Selbst got hammered by Gaelle Baumann.  Boat ran into quads.  Goodbye, Vanessa.

 

[lod001]

The problem is, if he "hits." What does he do if an ace hits the flop? He's probably in  second place at best, but it's really easy to bleed chips in that spot.

He has the ace. A ton of the people playing inn that game would try and limp in with that hand.

In a tourney like that there are donks galore that will play stupid ####. You have to take risks and get lucky. Playing tight will get you nowhere unless you are getting dealt good cards.

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

The other problem is what about the 20 other times he gets this kind of hand and it's raised preflop? That 50k turns into 30k REALLY quick making marginal preflop calls like this. Especially at a new table with no reads on the players. 

Sure, it's only 5% of his chips. This hand. But do that over and over and it adds up when you don't hit. And if you aren't going to do it every time, then why this hand? I'm sorry, but in this situation it's not the right play unless you get a read that one of the raisers is ready to donate chips.

This was basically my thinking exactly. At the table I sat at for 9.5 hours of play before this, I may have called depending on who was before me since I've seen their tendencies all day.  At a new table, first hand, I didn't like the risk. 

 

[lod001]

Watching Day 1B...Vanessa Selbst got hammered by Gaelle Baumann.  Boat ran into quads.  Goodbye, Vanessa.

"I don't know if I'm good enough to fold this. I guess you could have ace-seven of hearts so I have to call."   No pocket 7's. Now GTFO.

Translation: 'I'm Vanessa Selbst, I guess you could go all in with the 3rd best hand so I will take your chips.'  
 

 

[kutta]

If he hits the flush on the flop, an ace can't hit.  is that what you meant?

No. I mean there's no flush but an ace comes. His ace is probably second best at that point.

 

[lod001]

No. I mean there's no flush but an ace comes. His ace is probably second best at that point.

Oh, other than A-A-4 flop, you fold at that point. You are strictly playing to flop a huge hand if not the nuts.

 

[Zegras11]

No. I mean there's no flush but an ace comes. His ace is probably second best at that point.

or third best in this case.

 

[kutta]

Oh, other than A-A-4 flop, you fold at that point. You are strictly playing to flop a huge hand if not the nuts.

But the problem is it is hard to get away from that hand sometimes. If both people check, do you bet? Playing A-junk is just a recipe for disaster because chances are small that you hit it, and if you do hit part of it (2 clubs?) it's hard to get away from.

 

[kutta]

I'm not saying it's an insta-fold. I'm saying he should usually fold there, so he shouldn't beat himself up.

 

[lod001]

But the problem is it is hard to get away from that hand sometimes. If both people check, do you bet? Playing A-junk is just a recipe for disaster because chances are small that you hit it, and if you do hit part of it (2 clubs?) it's hard to get away from.

I would check. It is a recipe for disaster. If you hit 2 clubs, you check as well. It's a garbage hand so you are just hoping to get lucky at the flop, turn or river if you can limp to the end without committing more chips.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

.

 

[James Daulton]

Two cards of the same suit and you folded?  Newb

 

[cockroach]

TAnd if you aren't going to do it every time, then why this hand? 

30 min left to play

 

[gianmarco]

Two cards of the same suit and you folded?  Newb

But it was sooooted....

 

[Zegras11]

Sad, but cool story

 

[IC FBGCav]

Yeah I fold that hand with a two-bet into me and that stack every time. 

More than likely, if you play it, it is better to raise it in that situation.

 

[IC FBGCav]

His fold was right in this situation I think because the 4x bb open is very polarized.  Either top 5 hand or middle pair/weak holding but the position of the initial raise matters to put into context.  Then the flat.  Knowing about those two players would give him a ton of info on how to proceed properly.

So in the end hero made the safe conservative and usually correct play being new to the table.  Plus sticking with his game plan.  But people using always or never need to brush up a little.  .

There are legitimate cases to be made for all 3 options in this situation and hero made the one that suited his plan.  And I say this with just preflop action, it doesn't change because he hit the flop.

Also, guy could have had a set...which means decent outs.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Did you watch espn2 to see if you were on?

 

[gianmarco]

More than likely, if you play it, it is better to raise it in that situation.

This.

Especially being new to the table. I wouldn't argue raising to $6500 here. Much better than flat calling with others left to act behind.

 

[IC FBGCav]

This.

Especially being new to the table. I wouldn't argue raising to $6500 here. Much better than flat calling with others left to act behind.

I didn't want to go too deep but 6500, gives you a chance to win outright on the squeeze and/or gives you info when they act.  If they reraise, easy fold, if one or both call, free flop, plus call narrows their range.

 

[gianmarco]

I didn't want to go too deep but 6500, gives you a chance to win outright on the squeeze and/or gives you info when they act.  If they reraise, easy fold, if one or both call, free flop, plus call narrows their range.

Exactly.  I was going to type out this exact response when I first wrote it.  When you look at the money amount, I'd rather do this once than flat call 3 1/2 times.  I'm much more likely to flat call with a J10s or KQs type hand that has more ways to win, is easier to get away from, and works well in a multi pot where I can see the flop as cheaply as possible when I'm in good position.  If I'm playing a marginal hand like A4s or even something like a 56, then I'm raising to limit their calling range, take control, and see what happens.

Plus, as someone pointed out above, being 30 minutes left to go does make a difference.  Right before breaks and especially right at the end of the day (or on the bubble), most players are going to really tighten up and don't want to get involved in a lot of hands.  Those are great times to try and steal some cheap pots even if just the blinds/antes.

You played really tight the first day.  Which is good.  But, with that image you build up (as evidenced by not getting much play on your AA and your KK), you have to use that image every once in a while when you don't have a hand to be aggressive and take some chips, especially in position.  If you get any late early/middle raisers and callers, try and squeeze for some chips if it's a sneaky hand (suited connectors are great for this kind of play).  Put your tight image to work for you if the cards aren't coming.

Good luck tomorrow!!

 

[gianmarco]

Sorry, one more post to offer a little advice for tomorrow.  Tournaments are funny because the way you play at the beginning of a tournament is different than how you play the middle is different than how you play the end.

In a smaller tournament with a much lower buy-in, your goal should be to try and win the tournament (or else what is the point).  Here, just cashing is a huge win.  Thus, you still don't need to get crazy.  And while I posted above that you still have plenty of time, overall it's much less time than you had on Day 1 because you HAVE to get a double up tomorrow or you're going home.  That wasn't so on Day 1.

With that being the case, if you go card dead, you have to find a way to make that happen.  Of all the things you can do to help yourself, you MUST play position.  Do not call any middling hands in early position.  You can't afford to bleed chips away on those hands.  If you get cards you can work with in middle or late position, you have to be a little aggressive and pick those spots to pick up small pots when possible.  And, if your image is such that you're not getting any action when you are raising, then if you do pick up a monster, you're going to have to gamble and slow play it to hopefully get paid.  On the flipside, if your new table is calling your action, then go hard when you pick up a big hand.

The most important factor in your decision making has to be position.  You can play poker using position without even looking at your cards.  Finally, if you get short and find that your next move is an all-in, find an ideal time to do so while in position and I'd recommend not even looking at your cards (just make sure you pretend look) or just looking at one and going with it so that no one can get any kind of read on you.

You'll need some luck, but you can maximize that if you make good decisions.  Don't rush anything, don't tilt, don't get frustrated...just have fun and keep a cool head.  You'll do fine!

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Did you watch espn2 to see if you were on?

I didnt, but a few friends were watching and didnt see me at all.  

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Here's a question - about half my table had sunglasses on.  What are your thoughts on sunglasses?  I picked some up yesterday but not related to wanting to wear them tomorrow.  But if they consensus here is that I should, I will.

 

[gianmarco]

Here's a question - about half my table had sunglasses on.  What are your thoughts on sunglasses?  I picked some up yesterday but not related to wanting to wear them tomorrow.  But if they consensus here is that I should, I will.

If they won't interfere with your play, then there's really no downside.  If even one person gets a read off of you based on your eyes, then it's worth it.  That said, some people are good at changing up how they act and want people to try and get a read on them.  If you're that person, then that's fine to go without them.

My only suggestion with it is if you're going to use sunglasses, keep them on all the time.  You don't want to give any information whatsoever while trying to put them on for certain hands.  Either wear them all day or don't wear them at all. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Here's a question - about half my table had sunglasses on.  What are your thoughts on sunglasses?  I picked some up yesterday but not related to wanting to wear them tomorrow.  But if they consensus here is that I should, I will.

I always have them, play 90% without them.  Only wear when hungover.  I you are new to this as you say. Glasses won't hide tells.  Just act the same way on all big decisions.  

The shark move, when you are weak act normal.  When strong go into shell.

 

[pantherclub]

I personally think sunglasses are silly. 

 

[pantherclub]

I always have them, play 90% without them.  Only wear when hungover.  I you are new to this as you say. Glasses won't hide tells.  Just act the same way on all big decisions.  

The shark move, when you are weak act normal.  When strong go into shell.

Exactly, for the most part the "tells" arent in the eyes its how you play certain scenarios.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Here's a question - about half my table had sunglasses on.  What are your thoughts on sunglasses?  I picked some up yesterday but not related to wanting to wear them tomorrow.  But if they consensus here is that I should, I will.

They should be banned but, if you can't look back at someone when they're looking at you, it's basic equipment

 

[IC FBGCav]

The only real eye tell is when the flop hits good for a player they instinctively look down at their chips.  So when you are in on the flop, look at the other players in when the dealers spreads it.  So you can see if they look down.  And they get no reaction from you.

 

[gianmarco]

I always have them, play 90% without them.  Only wear when hungover.  I you are new to this as you say. Glasses won't hide tells.  Just act the same way on all big decisions.  

The shark move, when you are weak act normal.  When strong go into shell.

Yep, bolded is really important.  In particular, the biggest thing is how you bet.  If you announce a bet, do it every single time you bet.  If you slide your chips in, then slide your chips in every time (vs. stack vs. toss, etc.).  Take your time before every bet and focus on doing it exactly the same every single time. 

 

[gianmarco]

The only real eye tell is when the flop hits good for a player they instinctively look down at their chips.  So when you are in on the flop, look at the other players in when the dealers spreads it.  So you can see if they look down.  And they get no reaction from you.

Actually, it has more to do with blinking than anything else.  People that bluff have a tendency to blink more often.  Sunglasses can help hide that.

At the same time, you can use that to your advantage if you don't wear them.  You just have to be aware of these things and figure out which way would work to your advantage more.

ETA -- Read this

 

[The General]

I like to say "Yahtzee" or "Bingo" whenever an  Ace is flopped. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Actually, it has more to do with blinking than anything else.  People that bluff have a tendency to blink more often.  Sunglasses can help hide that.

At the same time, you can use that to your advantage if you don't wear them.  You just have to be aware of these things and figure out which way would work to your advantage more.

ETA -- Read this

But really it happens all the time, if you watch your opponents on the flop and they connect.  They look at their chips.

 

[pantherclub]

I like to say "Yahtzee" or "Bingo" whenever an  Ace is flopped. 

Best advice yet in this thread

 

[Zegras11]

Actually, it has more to do with blinking than anything else.  People that bluff have a tendency to blink more often.  Sunglasses can help hide that.

At the same time, you can use that to your advantage if you don't wear them.  You just have to be aware of these things and figure out which way would work to your advantage more.

ETA -- Read this

I read Joe's book years ago.  It was very interesting and he said the #1 tell was what people do with their feet.  I've won a few hands using this....

My other thing from his book is that people are different.  I'm 57.  I've sat down at the table and had a forearm muscle twitch for a minute out of the blue and laughed to myself that someone might think that's a tell. It's not LOL.  Joe said you have to get a baseline on each player and then see how they act differently from that.

I don't where glasses.  Never felt comfortable wearing them.  I do try to have the same mannerisms on every hand.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I like to say "Yahtzee" or "Bingo" whenever an  Ace is flopped. 

I always yell "gimme a deuce".   It confuses them on many levels.

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

I always yell "gimme a deuce".   It confuses them on many levels.

I may try yelling this before scampering off to the bathroom if I feel like I need to step away from the table for a few min to regroup 

 

[IC FBGCav]

I may try yelling this before scampering off to the bathroom if I feel like I need to step away from the table for a few min to regroup 

Plus, you got to leave early to beat the insane bathroom rush.

 

[gianmarco]

I read Joe's book years ago.  It was very interesting and he said the #1 tell was what people do with their feet.  I've won a few hands using this....

My other thing from his book is that people are different.  I'm 57.  I've sat down at the table and had a forearm muscle twitch for a minute out of the blue and laughed to myself that someone might think that's a tell. It's not LOL.  Joe said you have to get a baseline on each player and then see how they act differently from that.

I don't where glasses.  Never felt comfortable wearing them.  I do try to have the same mannerisms on every hand.

Yep.  The only universal thing I've learned is that nothing is universal when it comes to tells.  But, lots of players have tells, some bigger than others, and especially with players that get involved in a lot of hands, if you focus on just a couple people at the table, especially over a long period of time like you'll have in this tourney, then it can pay off.

I've used the feet thing myself.  I've also used the chip betting method.  I've watched guys slide their chips in and flip over a big hand then down the road call a bluff pretty confidently when they toss their chips in. 

I am cold all the time when I sit and play and will often time shiver, rub my hands together, etc.  I always wonder if people ever try to get a read off that stuff.  That said, I never use sunglasses either.  At most, I'll put a hat on and put my head down if I'm involved with a big hand if I'm trying to give away as little as possible.  I've also been told that I'm really difficult to read because of how I vary my betting patterns so I worry very little about my physical tells.

 

[Zegras11]

Yep.  The only universal thing I've learned is that nothing is universal when it comes to tells.  But, lots of players have tells, some bigger than others, and especially with players that get involved in a lot of hands, if you focus on just a couple people at the table, especially over a long period of time like you'll have in this tourney, then it can pay off.

I've used the feet thing myself.  I've also used the chip betting method.  I've watched guys slide their chips in and flip over a big hand then down the road call a bluff pretty confidently when they toss their chips in. 

I am cold all the time when I sit and play and will often time shiver, rub my hands together, etc.  I always wonder if people ever try to get a read off that stuff.  That said, I never use sunglasses either.  At most, I'll put a hat on and put my head down if I'm involved with a big hand if I'm trying to give away as little as possible.  I've also been told that I'm really difficult to read because of how I vary my betting patterns so I worry very little about my physical tells.

That's a tell.