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Roe v. Wade Overturned (1 Viewer)

I did say almost always.   You make so many so often a couple have to be right just by luck.
Like a broken clock right? Lol

Look forget about me; what I think doesn’t matter. If you truly believe this is no big deal then you’re delusional, no offense. I’ve been driving all morning listening to radio, and apart from the sports stations there’s only one topic of conversation. And it’s not the leak either. 

 
The only person that mentioned ANY of this drivel was you.  The ONLY thing I said was if the status quo doesn't change, the opportunity simply isn't there.  The rest is your bull#### you've thrown on top of it and now you're trying to attribute your bull#### to me.  Piss off.....stop putting words in my mouth.  This is a YOU problem.


yep - there you go

opportunity just wasn't there for my Dad, for my Grandpa, for me .... we just led lives so horrible poor and sad and without opportunity that abortion would have been better for us maybe?  

I'm not putting words - I'm expanding on what it appears you REALLY meant

If I'm wrong then say it - tell me you didn't mean poor people have less worth. Tell me you didn't mean abortion for people who have a more challenged life isn't a better option than letting them life it? Say that and I'll apologize deeply for misreading into what you're saying because I truly would be

 
Schumer says he will bring a vote to the floor to codify abortion rights even though it won’t pass; he wants to show the nation where every Senator stands on this issue. I imagine Pelosi will do the same. 

 
Is it a crime to mail abortion pills into a state where abortion is illegal?
It will be soon if not already:

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/03/16/as-abortion-pills-take-off-some-states-move-to-curb-them

Could also make it a crime to "aide and Abet across state lines thus making pregnant women seeking abortion prisoners of the state:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/missouri-considers-law-to-make-illegal-to-aid-or-abet-out-of-state

But at least abortion in not outlawed nationally. Don't know what happens if you're pregnant and decide to actually move to another state and then get an abortion, maybe State Troopers can lure you back for prosecution.

 
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I'm personally pro life in the sense that I would move heaven and earth to help a pregnant woman make a decision to keep a child or sexually active people from never conceiving in the first place. Sexual education at an age well before sexual activitiy. Contraception universally available. Parental leave from work. Childcare support. Universal health care for mothers and children. Better early education. Whatever it takes. 

But the line I draw is cooercing other in regards to their own body.

I believe that's what makes overturning Roe V Wade so popular with conservatives. You get to do something without actually, you know....DOING something. Easiest cause in the world. They fight real world workable solutions to lower the abortion rate tooth and nail. 

For instance:

https://cdphe.colorado.gov/fpp/about-us/colorados-success-long-acting-reversible-contraception-larc   


What are your thoughts on vaccine mandates?

 
Schumer says he will bring a vote to the floor to codify abortion rights even though it won’t pass; he wants to show the nation where every Senator stands on this issue. I imagine Pelosi will do the same. 


has there been any other Supreme Court ruling that a political party went to such lengths to show the nation anything ?.

 
Schumer says he will bring a vote to the floor to codify abortion rights even though it won’t pass; he wants to show the nation where every Senator stands on this issue. I imagine Pelosi will do the same. 
Ummmm, doesn't the filibuster prevent bringing a vote to the floor?

 
I'm fine with states having the right to decide on abortion, as long as there is a caveat that they fix their school systems, provide better aid for unwed mothers and children of poverty, provide free medical care for pregnant women and the children, and that all the people that are in favor of outlawing abortion are mandated to adopt at least one child, means tested. So, if you're over a certain income bracket, you could be mandated to adopt more.

 
What are your thoughts on vaccine mandates?
Women should have the right to choose to have an abortion. People should be forced to get Covid vaccinations in the interest of public health. 
 

Whether or not you agree or disagree with either of the above two statements, they don’t contradict each other. They’re not even similar enough to compare. 

 
Not really.  Unless duress also covers such things as dress codes, work hours, etc.


There's a huge difference between what clothes I wear and being injected with a non reversible vaccine that has been tested for less than a year.  I'd like to think you can see the distinction.

 
I'm fine with states having the right to decide on abortion, as long as there is a caveat that they fix their school systems, provide better aid for unwed mothers and children of poverty, provide free medical care for pregnant women and the children, and that all the people that are in favor of outlawing abortion are mandated to adopt at least one child, means tested. So, if you're over a certain income bracket, you could be mandated to adopt more.
Unfortunately the states that will outlaw abortion also have the worst support systems for those it will affect.

 
Women should have the right to choose to have an abortion. People should be forced to get Covid vaccinations in the interest of public health. 
 

Whether or not you agree or disagree with either of the above two statements, they don’t contradict each other. They’re not even similar enough to compare. 


my body my choice then isn't my choice at all is it ?

 
Women should have the right to choose to have an abortion. People should be forced to get Covid vaccinations in the interest of public health. 
 

Whether or not you agree or disagree with either of the above two statements, they don’t contradict each other. They’re not even similar enough to compare. 
The hell they don't contradict each other when we are talking about drawing the line in coercing others to do something with their body.  No one cares about your personal beliefs. 

 
Like a broken clock right? Lol

Look forget about me; what I think doesn’t matter. If you truly believe this is no big deal then you’re delusional, no offense. I’ve been driving all morning listening to radio, and apart from the sports stations there’s only one topic of conversation. And it’s not the leak either. 
Oh I never said it wasn't a big deal.  its a HUGE deal.....This is one of the most polarizing things in America, always has been.  However there are feelings on both sides for this.  You seem to think the only ones that matter are the ones you agree with.  Not unusual for most positions.  However I think there is a stronger push for removal of legal abortion than your cnn polls tell you

 
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there is no Constitutional Right to abortion - there was a ruling 50 years ago

that's fact - and its about to be ruled another way it appears
I saw that a couple times too and wondered where the "constitutional right" came into play.   Heard a lady on the radio saying that too and I didn't know where that was true.

 
So in your world the life of an unborn child full of potential is of equal value to that of an adult who has taken another life?

Bizarre value system.
If Christianity is a bizarre value set, then you are quite right.

But he absolutely states it correctly within the confines of Christianity.  The innocent unborn baby is equal in God's eyes to the mass murderer.  Both are God's children   

 
I saw that a couple times too and wondered where the "constitutional right" came into play.   Heard a lady on the radio saying that too and I didn't know where that was true.


they're been told its a Right for decades, they believe what was told

for a long time, I was misled on what marriage was ... when I realized it was a legality granted by the state and had nothing to do with religion ... I came to understand marriage for same sex was fine and dandy

 
There's a huge difference between what clothes I wear and being injected with a non reversible vaccine that has been tested for less than a year.  I'd like to think you can see the distinction.
Sure.  It's still a condition of employment.  That's not the same as being forced.  The NY Yankees don't allow facial hair (or once didn't).  The Boston Red Sox do.  Condition of employment.

 
Off the beaten track here, but Americans donate to charity more than any other country and conservative Americans are the most generous among us.  The assertion is categorically incorrect.

After the left's insistence on vaccine compliance (I was forced under penalty of dismissal from my place of work) I find this line of thinking hysterical.  This came home to roost pretty quick.
Your resistance to vaccination harms others. Public health is a thing.

 
There's a huge difference between what clothes I wear and being injected with a non reversible vaccine that has been tested for less than a year.  I'd like to think you can see the distinction.


The distinction that matters is that vaccines were/are not mandated any more than wearing pants or using a toilet is mandated. You don't have to do either, but if you want to enjoy the privilege of sharing space with other humans you have to abide by the rules we collectively have set for our collective benefit. 

If you are a person who opposed vaccine mandates by citing some notion of bodily autonomy or "my body my choice" or whatever, but you support abortion bans, that is logically inconsistent IMO. I have yet to hear a bodily autonomy argument against vaccine mandates that is consistent with being pro-life.

But the same is not true of people who supported vaccine mandates and oppose abortion bans, however, because (to my knowledge) NOBODY supported universal vaccine mandates. They supported vaccine mandates as a condition of sharing spaces with other humans.

 
Sorry if honda as I missed most of the morning. 

This seemed an interesting article. As I understand it Weiss is pro choice.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-shocking-supreme-court-leak?s=r

In March, we ran a piece by the reporter Aaron Sibarium called “The Takeover of America’s Legal System.” The story made the case, backed up by exhaustive reporting, that just as education and the press and medicine were being transformed from within, so too, was the law. And those who comforted themselves with the notion that the law would be a bulwark against the new dogma were in for a rude awakening. 

Aaron showed that the young lawyers who were entering the most elite legal institutions in the country—law firms and law schools and courts—didn’t necessarily share the ethos of those institutions. In fact, many of them explicitly seek to revolutionize them. 

My thoughts immediately went to this story when I saw the shocking headline last night by Politico: The Supreme Court plans to overturn Roe. We know that because someone leaked what appears to be an initial draft of the majority opinion of a decision that was expected to land in late June.

You can read the entire thing here.

The opinion, written by Justice Samuel Alito and joined by Justices Clarence Thomas, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, holds that “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start.” It goes on: “We hold that Roe and Casey”—the 1992 decision that upheld Roe, which passed in 1973—“must be overruled.” More: “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”

Less than two hours after Politico dropped the story, CNN reported that Chief Justice John Roberts does not want to overturn Roe, but was willing to uphold the Mississippi law that would ban abortion at 15 weeks of pregnancy. Who knows what could leak next.

From what I can see, this is a shattering event on three levels. Substantively, politically, and institutionally. 

Substantively. If indeed this draft opinion becomes the law, what will it mean for American women to live in a country where Roe is overturned and abortion is kicked back to the states? What will it mean practically? What would it mean for women in the 13 states where abortion would become immediately illegal? What would it mean for the doctors who perform those abortions, including in cases of rape and incest? Or in the case of ectopic pregnancies? And other unthinkable questions.

Politically. The most obvious take here is that the Democrats were in for a bruising in the midterms and this was leaked by a liberal to galvanize Democrats. Galvanize how? Perhaps to get voters to turn out as if their lives depended on it. Perhaps to pass a law before the midterms legalizing abortion. (Here’s Bernie Sanders on Twitter last night: “Congress must pass legislation that codifies Roe v. Wade as the law of the land in this country NOW. And if there aren’t 60 votes in the Senate to do it, and there are not, we must end the filibuster to pass it with 50 votes.”) Perhaps to reanimate the case for court-packing.

Institutionally. I know several people who have clerked for the Court. And because I am, like every journalist, utterly and shamelessly nosy, I have pressed all of them to share their personal anecdotes about the mysterious men and women in black robes. Sure, they’d share fun details about pick-up basketball, or the famously warm relationship between Scalia and RBG. Maybe, years after the fact, they’d tell a highly curated, well-rehearsed story. But the idea of breathing a word about the actual workings of the court, about a decision that had not yet been made public—that would have appalled every single one of these people, liberal and conservative alike. 

How did we go from that ethos to a world in which—leaving the possibility of some kind of Russian or Chinese hack, or a more banal security breach, or someone pulling the draft from the garbage—one or more clerks are undermining the institution itself? (That question is the same whether the leaker was a liberal enraged about the decision, or, less obviously, a conservative, perhaps trying to firm up a fifth vote or somehow pressure the chief justice.)

On the question of abortion—its morality and its legality—I do not think there is a better piece that has been written than on the subject than this one by Caitlin Flanagan. It’s called “The Dishonesty of the Abortion Debate” and I urge you to read it. And, if you haven’t yet, please listen to the conversation I had with Caitlin about abortion on Honestly, which captures where I sit on this fraught issue. 

Perhaps you feel torn. Most Americans do: A majority of Americans consistently say they do not want Roe to be overturned . . . and yet a majority of Americans also favor some restrictions on abortion. According to Gallup, less than 30 percent of Americans say that abortion should “generally be legal” in the second trimester. All of which suggests that few people have actually read Roe.

On the question of politics, and the hideous ways this leak and the decision itself will play out, there will surely be much more to say in the coming days. (As I write, the crowd gathered outside the Court is chanting, “Fascist scum have got to go.”) This leak is tremendous news for Democrats, who would spend every moment until the midterms promising to overturn this ruling (and running away from the subject of inflation).

To my mind, though, the question of what this leak means for the institution of the Supreme Court is the most profound one. That is because it captures, in a single act, what I believe is the most important story of our moment: the story of how American institutions became a casualty in the culture war. The story of how no institution is immune. Not our universities, not our medical schools, not legacy media, not technology behemoths, not the federal bureaucracy. Not even the highest court in the land.

The Supreme Court was always the most cloistered governmental institution in America—the one where wisdom and precedent and reverence for our great constitutional tradition outweighed everything else. If there was something sacred that remained, this was it. Yes, there have been leaks from the Court before. But as Politico pointed out, last night’s leak was historic, and not in a good way: “No draft decision in the modern history of the court has been disclosed publicly while a case was still pending.” 

I called up one of the smartest professors I know at one of the top law schools in the country, and he echoed that: “To my knowledge, it’s never happened before in the modern history of the court. It is the most serious possible breach.”

Serious, severe, shocking, he said. But in the end, not surprising. Why not? Here’s how he put it: “To me, the leak is not surprising because many of the people we’ve been graduating from schools like Yale are the kind of people who would do such a thing.” 

What did he mean by that? “They think that everything is violence. And so everything is permitted.”

He went on: “I’m sure this person sees themselves as a whistleblower. What they don’t understand is that, by leaking this, they violate the trust that is necessary to maintain the institution.”

Perhaps some of you feel that the institution had already been betrayed. That the Court, long before this leak or this explosive decision, had already been diminished. Maybe the refusal to consider Merrick Garland put you over the edge. Or maybe it was the revelations about Clarence Thomas’s wife and January 6th. Or maybe it was the Kavanaugh hearings. How he was grilled. Or that he was nominated. Or maybe it was earlier: Bush v. Gore or Anita Hill or Robert Bork. 

This feels different than all of that. Why? Because all of those other instances were moments of outrage bookended by long periods of sobriety and seriousness. They were the exceptions that proved the rule. Now, everything seems to have been turned upside down, and the outrage, the uncontrollable or unslakable partisan fury, seems to have overtaken everything. Our sense of history, our respect for the institution, for norms, for even more basic human things: like trust, devotion, privacy, integrity. Jonathan Turley put it this way late last night: “There appears no ethical rule or institutional interest that can withstand this age of rage.”

To the jaded and hardened who have already crossed over into this new age—an age in which power and winning are the only tests of virtue, and the old ideas, like civility and respect, now seem twee—the leak might seem normal or even necessary. But it is nothing more than the most recent salvo in our race to the bottom.

 
What was preventing them from addressing those support systems already?  Do only unwanted babies deserve support?


there is a support system - the United States has support systems - they need to be better, absolutely. I can't tell you why they're not 100% perfect, maybe they will be in 1 year, 3 years or 5 years? Just work harder is all we can do 

 
my body my choice then isn't my choice at all is it ?
Being quite silly with this response - can someone who is pregnant get someone else pregnant by standing next to them?

I get that you are passionate about this item but let’s not resort to invalid comparisons. 

 
Serious, severe, shocking, he said. But in the end, not surprising. Why not? Here’s how he put it: “To me, the leak is not surprising because many of the people we’ve been graduating from schools like Yale are the kind of people who would do such a thing.” 

What did he mean by that? “They think that everything is violence. And so everything is permitted.”

He went on: “I’m sure this person sees themselves as a whistleblower. What they don’t understand is that, by leaking this, they violate the trust that is necessary to maintain the institution.”


the most important part of all of this maybe 

 
there is a support system - the United States has support systems - they need to be better, absolutely. I can't tell you why they're not 100% perfect, maybe they will be in 1 year, 3 years or 5 years? Just work harder is all we can do 


Can you tell us why they're worse in states that have trigger bans or are most likely to ban abortion going forward? Why haven't those states done what the pro-choice states have already done to improve the welfare of children? 

 
Question for you as you’ve read the decision: does Alito discuss the right of privacy? 


Here are some excerpts from the draft:

"Even though the Constitution makes no mention of abortion, the Court [US Supreme Court in Roe] held that it confers a broad right to obtain one.  It did not claim that American law or the common law had ever recognized such a right, and its survey of history ranged from the constitutionally irrelevant...to the plainly incorrect"

"The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision, including the one which the defenders of Roe and Casey now chiefly rely - the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.  That provision has been held to guarantee some rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution, but any such right must be 'deeply rooted in the Nations history and tradition' and 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty'."

"Roe's defenders characterize the abortion right as similar to the rights recognized in past decisions involving matters such as intimate sexual relations, contraception and marriage, but abortion is fundamentally different, as both Roe and Casey acknowledged, because it destroys what those decisions called 'fetal life' and what the law now before us describes as an 'unborn human being.'"

"It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives.  'The permissibility of abortion, and the limitations, upon it, are to be resolved like most important questions in our democracy: by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting....'  This is what the Constitution and rule of law demand."

PRIVACY:

"Roe, however, was remarkably loose in its treatment of the constitutional text.  It held that the abortion right, which is not mentioned in the Constitution, is part of a right to privacy, which is also not mentioned.  And that privacy right, Roe observed, found to spring from no fewer than five different constitutional provisions..."

"Roe expressed the 'feel[ing]' that the Fourteenth Amendment was the provision that did the work, but its message seemed to be that the abortion right could be found somewhere in the Constitution and that specifying its exact location was not of paramount importance.  The Casey court did not defend this unfocused analysis and instead grounded its decision solely on the theory that the right to obtain an abortion is part of the 'liberty' protected by the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause."  [Alito then goes on to discuss "liberty" and why abortion doesn't apply, namely it's not "deeply rooted in our Nation's history and tradition."  Alito says that when the Fourteenth was ratified that "28 out of 37" States had enacted statutes making abortion a crime.  All but one had done so by 1910.]  "In short, the 'Court's opinion in Roe itself convincingly refutes the notion that the abortion liberty is deeply rooted in the history or tradition of our people.' [quoting the dissent in Roe]"

[When discussing the above rooting in history, respondents claim the above abortion crime evidence "does not matter"]  "But that argument flies in the face of the standard we have applied in determining whether an asserted right that is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution is nevertheless protected by the Fourteenth Amendment." [Respondents provided no evidence of the existence of a "right to an abortion" prior to the Roe decision.]

[Alito, on "liberty"] "While individuals are certainly free to think and to say what they wish about 'existence,' 'meaning,' the 'universe,' and 'the mystery of human life,' they are not always free to act in accordance with those thoughts."

"Nor does the right to obtain an abortion have a sound basis in precedent.  Casey relied on cases involving the right to marry a person of a different race...the right to marry while in prison...the right to obtain contraceptives...the right to reside with relatives...the right to make decisions about the education of one's children...the right not to be sterilized without consent...and the right in certain circumstances not to undergo involuntary surgery...These attempts to justify abortion through appeals to broader rights to autonomy and to define one's 'concept of existence' prove too much...What sharply distinguishes the abortion right from the rights recognized in the cases on which Roe and Casey rely is something that both those decisions acknowledged: Abortion destroys what those decisions call 'potential life' and what the law at issue in this case regards as the life of an 'unborn human being.'  Noe of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical moral question posed by abortion.  They are therefore inapposite.  They do not support the right to obtain an abortion and by the same token, our conclusion that the Constitution does not confer such a right does not undermine them in any way."

Sorry, don't feel like going any further (about 35 of 98).  

 
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If you are a person who opposed vaccine mandates by citing some notion of bodily autonomy or "my body my choice" or whatever, but you support abortion bans, that is logically inconsistent IMO. I have yet to hear a bodily autonomy argument against vaccine mandates that is consistent with being pro-life.

But the same is not true of people who supported vaccine mandates and oppose abortion bans, however, because (to my knowledge) NOBODY supported universal vaccine mandates. They supported vaccine mandates as a condition of sharing spaces with other humans.


Yikes at this logic. Amazing the lengths some of you will go to justify your philosophical inconsistencies.

 
that will have to be addressed absolutely
Please support the efforts to help young children. I've read about the deprivation of poor kids as young as 2 & 3 based on school-readniness measures, but hearing it first-hand from my roommate who's worked in 4 different early learning centers in the last 5 years makes it real. The difference between kids in private pre-schools and under-funded public ones is Stark. Not all single-moms will have LeBron James-like children. The vast majority of kids are simply left behind. Expanding Medicaid, more funding for universal pre-k, those can make a difference.

 
If Christianity is a bizarre value set, then you are quite right.

But he absolutely states it correctly within the confines of Christianity.  The innocent unborn baby is equal in God's eyes to the mass murderer.  Both are God's children   
Since I'm not Christian this is completely irrelevant.

 
I was formerly pro-life but saw a comparison a while ago that really made me re-consider.

Hypothetically, assume a person you don't know has a rare bone marrow condition.  You have been determined to be the only possible match.  The only way this person can live is if you undergo a medical procedure to donate bone marrow.  Can the state compel you to donate?

Similarly, can the state compel you to undergo a different procedure (child birth) purely because someone elses life (the fetus) is on the line?  
That's what changed your mind?
Put me in the highly skeptical camp here. 

The analogy doesnt even fit. If you dont donate marrow you just dont donate. Nothing changes. You dont have to actively abort the other person to get out of donating bone marrow. 

The whole situation is muddy and I dont see how an also muddy analogy acts like a beacon of light for an aha moment.

 
Please support the efforts to help young children. I've read about the deprivation of poor kids as young as 2 & 3 based on school-readniness measures, but hearing it first-hand from my roommate who's worked in 4 different early learning centers in the last 5 years makes it real. The difference between kids in private pre-schools and under-funded public ones is Stark. Not all single-moms will have LeBron James-like children. The vast majority of kids are simply left behind. Expanding Medicaid, more funding for universal pre-k, those can make a difference.


I was one of those poor kids, from a family that was poorer than you can imagine

 
Yikes at this logic. Amazing the lengths some of you will go to justify your philosophical inconsistencies.


The thing about faulty logic is it's easy to poke a hole in it. If there was an actual inconsistency here you would have explained it instead of posting this. 

I already knew it was a pretty good argument, but I appreciate the validation!

 
Being quite silly with this response - can someone who is pregnant get someone else pregnant by standing next to them?

I get that you are passionate about this item but let’s not resort to invalid comparisons. 
Not if the other person is vaccinated and wearing a condom.  

 
Fine, since you always demand links, how about one from you showing a poll from a reputable polling organization that abortion is NOT popular among with the American public. 
Just need to nit pick here.  Abortion in probably not popular among the American public as opposed to  legal access to abortion as a necessary option.  These aren't the same.  You can be ideologically against abortion but pragmatically understand that it is a legal necessity.    And while the above should go without needing to be said, it seems clear that it needs to be said.

 
Yikes at this logic. Amazing the lengths some of you will go to justify your philosophical inconsistencies.
Yep.  This falls flat because those opposing abortion are concerned for another human life.  Not sure why these folks consistently use this completely invalid comparison to vaccine shots.  

It is not inconsistent to say "my body my choice" when it comes to vaccines yet still be pro life due to the life of the fetus being considered.  Silly

 
Since I'm not Christian this is completely irrelevant.
I figured as much....but I was just explaining where the opposition to capital punishment and abortion come from among Christians.  It has to do with the dignity of the human person who was created in the likeness and image of God....

 
Good for you. Your family also deserves credit. Most women who want an abortion would be single moms. The family-support may not be there as it was for you.


you know something funny ?  most poor kids have fun, live everyday, they don't realize they're poor until someone points it out to them

link to the red above ? I found this

14% married 31% cohabitating 45% would not be "single moms"  ... 45% never married and a high % would be

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/report_downloads/us-abortion-patients-table1.pdf

 
Put me in the highly skeptical camp here. 

The analogy doesnt even fit. If you dont donate marrow you just dont donate. Nothing changes. You dont have to actively abort the other person to get out of donating bone marrow. 

The whole situation is muddy and I dont see how an also muddy analogy acts like a beacon of light for an aha moment.
ok.  It made a lot of sense to me, but YMMV.  We are all on different journeys and different analogies will resonate differently with you.

 

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