Roe v. Wade Overturned (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

This case has nothing to do with precedent. Precedent means that lower courts must follow the lead of higher courts. Both before and after this decision, assuming it becomes law, binding precedent will still be binding to the exact same extent, and non-binding precedent will still be non-binding to the exact same extent.

This case has a lot to do with stare decisis. There are like 20 pages about it. They can't be summarized on a bumper sticker.

Question for you as you’ve read the decision: does Alito discuss the right of privacy? 

 

[Sand]

This case has a lot to do with stare decisis. There are like 20 pages about it. They can't be summarized on a bumper sticker.

Stare Deceases

Done.  Where are my royalties?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Time for some serious sexytime boycotts.

I assume all pro-life men abstain from sex until marriage, right?  Seems like if you really care about preventing abortion it's a no-brainer.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Sodomy, contraception, gay marriage, interracial marriage and other privacy rights are all in jeopardy.  

People aren't paying enough attention to this.  Alito specifically called out the sodomy and gay marriage cases as being built on the same wrong logic as Roe.

And if you think they won't really go through with it, I have no help for you.

 

[Rich Conway]

Stare Deceases

Done.  Where are my royalties?

Credit where credit is due.  Good work here.

 

[dkp993]

In a recent thread you said something nice about my posts in general but pointed out a certain tic of mine that you found annoying, which I appreciated. Now I'm going to return the favor.

You're one of my favorite right-leaning posters here, because you force me to really think through some of my assumptions. But you have this habit of lumping "the left" together as a unitary blob that acts in concert and where everyone who is even slightly left of center is responsible for everything the blob says or believes.

Imagine if I said you were a hypocrite because you claim to be pro-life even as "the American right" assassinates abortion providers and bombs clinics. Would you think that was a fair charge? Or would you rightly object that you don't support assassinations and bombings?

Lumping everyone together is basically a dodge that allows you to have an argument with the opponent you wish you were debating rather than the one you actually have. People are responsible for what they say and believe (and who they vote for). Period.

As to the issue at hand, I was born the same year as Roe, and in my lifetime I can't recall a single pro-choice protest that turned violent, nor a single abortion-rights group that has endorsed violence. If you know of one, feel free to provide links. But enough already with these overbroad assumptions about "the left".

Well said and i will take this to heart.  Tim isnt the only one being dramatic so i need to tone it down sd well.

Good on both of you for being open to personal “shortcomings”. It’s refreshing to see, especially in a thread that inspires so much passion.  Thank you both.  

 

[Stealthycat]

Fine, since you always demand links, how about one from you showing a poll from a reputable polling organization that abortion is NOT popular among with the American public. 

I simply disagree with the poll results you showed

https://www.vox.com/a/abortion-statistics-opinions-2016/poll

interesting that ... if people knew more about abortion, they'd be impacted on how they feel about it 

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

You're conflating two very disparate items.  I'm fine with more distribution points - that's great.  That is infinitely better than denying a child their right to a life.

The second doesn't come down to access, it comes down to forced support.  The courts found, rightly, that these places shouldn't be forced to support something that went against deeply held beliefs.  The whole "this limits access" was a transparent canard and continues to be so.  There was no limiting of access - it simply came down to who paid for birth control (it should also be noted that by definition the folks affected were employed, not indigent).

Interesting note - EWTN, who was prime in this case, is right along my most common cycling route.  Pretty unassuming building, to be honest.

I agree on the Hobby Lobby, my point was there are organizations, and politicians, who would also like to outlaw contraception.

It does come down to access. There are only 600 Planned Parenthood locations while approximately 88,000 pharmacies in the US.  

 

[Stoneworker]

Dude in a few days nobody is going to be talking about the leak. They will be talking about the decision to overturn Roe for years. 
The leak is so unimportant in the overall scheme of things. It’s a distraction. 

Where we differ is that you believe the leak is an isolated and one-time event. It is not.

It is a manifestation and yet further evidence that our society now esteems tribal political values above all else. That GB, is a cancer. 

FTR, I'm against overturning Roe.

 

[Mookie]

This case has nothing to do with precedent. Precedent means that lower courts must follow the lead of higher courts. Both before and after this decision, assuming it becomes law, binding precedent will still be binding to the exact same extent, and non-binding precedent will still be non-binding to the exact same extent.

This case has a lot to do with stare decisis. There are like 20 pages about it. They can't be summarized on a bumper sticker.

Supreme Court precedent controls the Supreme Court until the Court wipes it away by refusing to follow the principle of stare decisis.  Twenty pages of rambling about the sanctity of words written almost 250 years ago does not justify the Court's decision - it merely rejects the justifications of a prior sitting SCOTUS, and signals that we are headed towards textualism.  

 

[Desert_Power]

I agree yet it's all perfectly compatible with the argument, and necessary, if it needs to be overturned. 

I agree. The idea that we should outlaw abortions while simultaneously lacking universal health insurance or federally mandated maternity leave borders on barbaric. Throw in our relative levels of infant/pregnancy-related mortality and it looks even worse.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Does anybody here support a federal ban on abortion?

I'd like to hear an argument that (a) the right to an abortion isn't among the liberties protected by the 14th Amendment, but (b) the power to regulate abortion is among the authorities granted to Congress under Article I, Section 8 (or any other constitutional provision).

I think it's pretty easy to make the case for either one of those positions alone, but I don't know what consistent judicial philosophy would support both. If "the Constitution never mentions abortion" is good for the goose, it seems like something about a gander may also be implicated.

 

[Stealthycat]

I assume all pro-life men abstain from sex until marriage, right?  Seems like if you really care about preventing abortion it's a no-brainer.

no, but they are held financially accountable for the choices they made

they are just as responsible as the women - and maybe they should be just as responsible for making the choices on abortin then too ??

 

[PhillipPhoto]

Really?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/25/majority-of-americans-support-abortion-poll-finds---but-not-later-in-the-pregnancy/?sh=26c147c25074

Majority Of Americans Support Abortion, Poll Finds — But Not Later In The Pregnancy

TOPLINE

 A majority of Americans broadly believe abortion should be legal and more than 60% believe people should be able to obtain abortions during the first trimester of their pregnancy, a new Associated Press/NORC poll finds—but support for abortion being legal drops significantly as the pregnancy continues, an issue that will soon be taken up by the U.S. Supreme Court.

KEY FACTS

The poll, conducted June 10-14 among 1,125 U.S. adults, found 57% of respondents believe abortion should be legal overall in all or most cases—with 23% saying it should be legal in all cases and 33% saying only in most cases—including 76% of Democrats and 36% of Republicans.

The ruling was made as the case from Mississippi would be upheld by overturning Roe v. Wade.  Mississippi would be able to allow abortions AND implement the 15 week requirement  "But Not Later In The Pregnancy"

The ruling matches what the people want in your poll exactly.

 

[Stoneworker]

I agree that turning a blind eye to perjury, ignoring court orders and allowing supposed ignorance to the law as an excuse to avoid prosecution has rendered the current system of laws useless. 

This is a pretty blatant attempt to pin me down as a Trump supporter. Maybe just stick to the issues.

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

I agree. The idea that we should outlaw abortions while simultaneously lacking universal health insurance or federally mandated maternity leave borders on barbaric. Throw in our relative levels of infant/pregnancy-related mortality and it looks even worse.

Correct if this is about respecting all life as a precious miracle.  Of course it isn't about that at all. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Question for you as you’ve read the decision: does Alito discuss the right of privacy? 

Of course. He cites Griswold and Roe and other privacy cases.

 

[Jackstraw]

I'm personally pro life in the sense that I would move heaven and earth to help a pregnant woman make a decision to keep a child or sexually active people from never conceiving in the first place. Sexual education at an age well before sexual activitiy. Contraception universally available. Parental leave from work. Childcare support. Universal health care for mothers and children. Better early education. Whatever it takes. 

But the line I draw is cooercing other in regards to their own body.

I believe that's what makes overturning Roe V Wade so popular with conservatives. You get to do something without actually, you know....DOING something. Easiest cause in the world. They fight real world workable solutions to lower the abortion rate tooth and nail. 

For instance:

https://cdphe.colorado.gov/fpp/about-us/colorados-success-long-acting-reversible-contraception-larc   

 

[timschochet]

I agree on the Hobby Lobby, my point was there are organizations, and politicians, who would also like to outlaw contraception.

It does come down to access. There are only 600 Planned Parenthood locations while approximately 88,000 pharmacies in the US.  

It’s very difficult to lease space to a Planned Parenthood office. I’ve tried in the past; I may again in the future. They’re good good people .

The problem is the protesters. At a shopping center near me where PP is at, the protesters are there 4-5 days a week. Their signs are ugly and tasteless “BABY KILLERS!” etc and pictures of fetuses being torn from the womb. Most landlords won’t put up with it; it hurts the other businesses and makes people not want to come to your center. So PP has a lot of trouble finding spaces even in liberal states like mine. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Supreme Court precedent controls the Supreme Court

This is not correct.

ETA: The accurate way to phrase that is, "Supreme Court precedent is often persuasive to the Supreme Court."

 

[Stealthycat]

Does anybody here support a federal ban on abortion?

I would support is because an unborn life is valuable, precious and we protect that life with every law we have don't we? That life is recognized in every other way isn't it? 

 

[kevzilla]

That dog might actually go up in price. @kevzilla father will finally get paid for his years of accumulation and patience.

He cut those dogs loose long ago, but he's been turning AEP dividends into more stock for 50+ years 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Where we differ is that you believe the leak is an isolated and one-time event. It is not.

It is a manifestation and yet further evidence that our society now esteems tribal political values above all else. That GB, is a cancer. 

FTR, I'm against overturning Roe.

Reminder that we still have no idea who the leaker is, nor their motivation for releasing the draft.

Hell, for all we know someone got tripped up by Microsoft Outlook's auto-complete function. They were trying to email the draft to John Roberts but they typed "J-O-H-N" and then accidentally selected Politico reporter John Richardson from the pulldown menu.    

 

[Snotbubbles]

Does anybody here support a federal ban on abortion?

I'd like to hear an argument that (a) the right to an abortion isn't among the liberties protected by the 14th Amendment, but (b) the power to regulate abortion is among the authorities granted to Congress under Article I, Section 8 (or any other constitutional provision).

I think it's pretty easy to make the case for either one of those positions alone, but I don't know what consistent judicial philosophy would support both. If "the Constitution never mentions abortion" is good for the goose, it seems like something about a gander may also be implicated.

I am pro-life but I wouldn't be for an outright ban.  To me somewhere around 10 weeks, when the fetal heart is fully developed.  After that, I don't know, I just have moral reservations.  Most pro-choice advocates want restrictions on abortion as well so there is incentive to find common ground from both sides.  Maybe this will be the catalyst.

 

[The Commish]

well that's true too - but a SC ruling would maybe jolt them, whether it should be required or not

the babies will be alive and have opportunity - that's better than being dead and ..well, dead

not if things don't change from status quo they won't....that my point.

 

[skol asylum]

spoken by a voice of poverty thank you very much

but if that's your excuse to kill innocent lives - why stop at the arbitrary birth thing? allow killing of all those worthless poverty kids up until age 3 or 5 or something ? make the world better right ?  get rid of the poverty kids, they didn't have a chance anyway right ?

I cannot believe that view exists - man that's just horrible and I'm glad people like me are around to fight people like you

seriously

And Im glad people like me are around to find people like you. That's a pretty ridiculous extension of your argument and you know it. I would never advocate such a thing. I'm tired of old white men dictating what others can or can't do concerning their own bodies. Whether it's the extremely harmful attacks on trans kids or those on women and abortion. Like other have pointed out I'm sure the attacks on gay marriage will come next. What happened to the concept of compassion in this country?

 

[Stealthycat]

I believe that's what makes overturning Roe V Wade so popular with conservatives. You get to do something without actually, you know....DOING something.

you don't know conservatives very well IMO

 

[Stoneworker]

Reminder that we still have no idea who the leaker is, nor their motivation for releasing the draft.

Hell, for all we know someone got tripped up by Microsoft Outlook's auto-complete function. They were trying to email the draft to John Roberts but they typed "J-O-H-N" and then accidentally selected Politico reporter John Richardson from the pulldown menu.    

You are correct. And yes I'm guilty of jumping to a conclusion based on my view of most likely events/motivations.

But IMO that also perfectly illustrates my point of the importance of integrity to the process > one single issue.

 

[Jackstraw]

you don't know conservatives very well IMO

I donated a box of diapers and a Kroger gift certificate at my church I'm off the hook la dee da! 

Or are you suggesting there's some conservative sponsored legislation solmewhere I'm missing?  

 

[The Dude]

when my daughter had her abortion, she had my unborn grandchild killed .... does that impact to me matter? to the father of the child and his family? to the child who might have grown up to be the next great mathematician, artist, piano player or President? 

lets talk seriousness, please, I welcome that discussion because its literally a life or death talk we're having 

SC, this hurts my heart.  this should be a separate topic that could really get to some deep issues - but I don’t know your approach is the best to lead that conversation

 

[Stealthycat]

not if things don't change from status quo they won't....that my point.

yes, absolutely being alive in the USA you have every chance in the WORLD

of all the NBA/NFL players, how many do you think came from poor, broken, single family poverty homes?   c'mon man, don't play this like all the poor people might as well die. I'm so sick of hearing people say that - ya'll must never have known poverty

my Dad knew poverty - people saying the stuff you're saying would have seen him killed because he didn't have any chance

 

[skol asylum]

Don't worry, the rich people will be able to get abortions still. 

This is 100% true. As will many anti-abortion advocates who suddenly find themselves in a position they never thought possible.

 

[skol asylum]

yes, absolutely being alive in the USA you have every chance in the WORLD

of all the NBA/NFL players, how many do you think came from poor, broken, single family poverty homes?   c'mon man, don't play this like all the poor people might as well die. I'm so sick of hearing people say that - ya'll must never have known poverty

my Dad knew poverty - people saying the stuff you're saying would have seen him killed because he didn't have any chance

Let's hope those hundreds of thousands of new babies are blessed with good genes to be professional athletes.

 

[Stealthycat]

SC, this hurts my heart.  this should be a separate topic that could really get to some deep issues - but I don’t know your approach is the best to lead that conversation

truth is, we've all lost family member to abortion whether we knew it or not

my daughter is haunted every day by what she did because the father of her child died not long after .... that child would have been someone very special had she not allowed it to be killed

50 years, 62 million mothers have had to live with what they did, thanks to Sanger/Planned Parenthood blacks have been targeted and 40% of abortions have been them

its horrific, its infanticide, its time to stop it, progress to a society that cherishes life 

I'm just being real and honest

 

[Stealthycat]

Let's hope those hundreds of thousands of new babies are blessed with good genes to be professional athletes.

they will have the choice to live their lives how they want to yes 

 

[supermike80]

I guess that’s why Joe Biden is President. 

I did say almost always.   You make so many so often a couple have to be right just by luck.

 

[The Commish]

yes, absolutely being alive in the USA you have every chance in the WORLD

of all the NBA/NFL players, how many do you think came from poor, broken, single family poverty homes?   c'mon man, don't play this like all the poor people might as well die. I'm so sick of hearing people say that - ya'll must never have known poverty

my Dad knew poverty - people saying the stuff you're saying would have seen him killed because he didn't have any chance

Sorry....we have MOUNDS of evidence to the contrary.  You're putting tons of words in my mouth again and I don't really appreciate it.  

 

[Rich Conway]

Let's hope those hundreds of thousands of new babies are blessed with good genes to be professional athletes.

Why does everyone keep taking this horrible bait?

 

[PhillipPhoto]

Democrats blew it by not relenting on late term abortions.  That's when they lost me.  Babies have survived being born at 21 weeks.  In 2018 the CDC reported there were roughly 6,200 abortions at 21 weeks or later.  

I think this sums up the ruling.  Am I correct that the court had to overturn RvW in order to allow states to pass laws to outlaw late term abortions once the Mississippi case made it to them?

 

[Sand]

I donated a box of diapers and a Kroger gift certificate at my church I'm off the hook la dee da! 

Off the beaten track here, but Americans donate to charity more than any other country and conservative Americans are the most generous among us.  The assertion is categorically incorrect.

But the line I draw is cooercing other in regards to their own body.

After the left's insistence on vaccine compliance (I was forced under penalty of dismissal from my place of work) I find this line of thinking hysterical.  This came home to roost pretty quick.

 

[squistion]

I simply disagree with the poll results you showed

https://www.vox.com/a/abortion-statistics-opinions-2016/poll

interesting that ... if people knew more about abortion, they'd be impacted on how they feel about it 

Which you can't disprove with a poll from any other polling organization that is considered reputable. 

 

[whoknew]

I don't know if this is the right thread for this and don't know if its already been discussed, but I wonder if this will slow the massive growth in some states. Specifically I'm thinking of Texas (that's where I live). We've had a ton of companies relocating here. Will this slow that progress some? 

I think its possible.

 

[Stealthycat]

Sorry....we have MOUNDS of evidence to the contrary.  You're putting tons of words in my mouth again and I don't really appreciate it.  

then stop with the indications that poor people deserve less chance in life 

remember - my family WAS poverty, we lived it in a way few people here understand. Literally barefoot, picking cotton, you ate if you caught it or killed it, no education .... I'm familiar with poverty .....you know some of the best days of my Dad's life ?  when he was a kid, living the poorest of poor that most can't imagine. Don't tell me he was better off not being born, that my Grandma's life would have been so much better had she had him killed in the womb

that's how your posts are coming across - maybe you don't see it 

 

[Rich Conway]

Off the beaten track here, but Americans donate to charity more than any other country and conservative Americans are the most generous among us.  The assertion is categorically incorrect.

Both of these statements depend heavily on a liberal definition of "charity".

 

[Stealthycat]

Which you can't disprove with a poll from any other polling organization that is considered reputable. 

again - if your pro-abortion side is so strong in numbers every state will have legalized abortion on every corner - no worries, right ?

 

[Rich Conway]

After the left's insistence on vaccine compliance (I was forced under penalty of dismissal from my place of work) I find this line of thinking hysterical.  This came home to roost pretty quick.

Condition of employment isn't "forced".

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Am I correct that the court had to overturn RvW in order to allow states to pass laws to outlaw late term abortions once the Mississippi case made it to them?

Based on the Politico reporting, Roberts was inclined to concur in the judgment but dissent from overturning Roe. If that's accurate, it shows that it'd be possible to uphold the Mississippi law without overturning Roe, perhaps with some mental gymnastics involved.

ETA: I don't think everyone would describe 15 weeks as "late-term."

 

[The Commish]

then stop with the indications that poor people deserve less chance in life 

remember - my family WAS poverty, we lived it in a way few people here understand. Literally barefoot, picking cotton, you ate if you caught it or killed it, no education .... I'm familiar with poverty .....you know some of the best days of my Dad's life ?  when he was a kid, living the poorest of poor that most can't imagine. Don't tell me he was better off not being born, that my Grandma's life would have been so much better had she had him killed in the womb

that's how your posts are coming across - maybe you don't see it 

The only person that mentioned ANY of this drivel was you.  The ONLY thing I said was if the status quo doesn't change, the opportunity simply isn't there.  The rest is your bull#### you've thrown on top of it and now you're trying to attribute your bull#### to me.  Piss off.....stop putting words in my mouth.  This is a YOU problem.

 

[Stealthycat]

Condition of employment isn't "forced".

except for rape/incest condition of pregnancy isn't either

 

[The Commish]

I don't know if this is the right thread for this and don't know if its already been discussed, but I wonder if this will slow the massive growth in some states. Specifically I'm thinking of Texas (that's where I live). We've had a ton of companies relocating here. Will this slow that progress some? 

I think its possible.

what you lose in companies other people coming into the state you will make up in babies