Milk Carton Alert (1 Viewer)

[Rich Conway]

I do believe vaccines work but are these vaccines or are they simply like a flu shot. Vaccines usually eradicate the disease don't they. Not a doctor but that's what I always thought. I am fully vaxxed and boosted if that's what its called.

This isn't really the case.  The COVID vaccines are pretty similar to the polio vaccines, really.  The polio vaccine wasn't 100% effective at preventing breakthrough cases either.  However, it was effective enough that once 95%+ of people were vaccinated, polio couldn't continue to spread enough to survive.  If we could have waved a magic wand and vaccinated the entire world population all at once for COVID, COVID would have died off as well.  Unfortunately, COVID is more contagious, people move around a lot more and a lot faster than they did then, and we have a lot more vax resistant people nowadays, both in this country and worldwide.

 

[BassNBrew]

Direct Headline: Trump Tells Supporters at Rally ‘I Recommend You Take’ Vaccine, But Adds: ‘I Also Believe in Your Freedoms’

By Josh Feldman Jul 25th, 2021, 9:41 am

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/trump-tells-supporters-at-rally-i-recommend-you-take-vaccine-but-adds-i-also-believe-in-your-freedoms/

Direct Headline: Trump promoted vaccines on Fox. Then the host goaded him into bashing boosters.

Bartiromo then asked Trump about breakthrough cases for those who have received the vaccines. Again, Trump used the occasion to promote the vaccines and — as he has on a few occasions — told people to get them. It was actually one of Trump’s most forceful endorsements of the vaccine. “I recommend that people take it,” he said. “I also recommend that you have your freedoms to do what you want to do.” Trump added: “Now one thing: When you have the vaccine, people that do — and it’s a very small number relatively, but people that do get it — get better much quicker. And it’s very important to know. They don’t get nearly as sick, and they get better. [Sen.] Lindsey Graham is an example. He said, if I didn’t have this vaccine, I would have died...So once you get the vaccine, you get better,” Trump added.

By Aaron Blake August 18, 2021 at 1:34 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/18/trump-went-fox-promoted-vaccines-then-host-goaded-him-into-bashing-boosters/

Direct Headline: Trump and top ally get booed by the monster Trump’s GOP created

“I believe totally in your freedoms. I do. You’ve got to do what you have to do,” Trump said, before adding with emphasis: “But, I recommend take the vaccines. It’s good. I did it. Take the vaccines...You got — no, that’s okay. That’s all right. You got your freedoms. But I happened to take the vaccine,” Trump said, before defusing the situation a bit with a jokey comment: “If it doesn’t work, you’ll be the first to know.” But then he added: “But it is working.”

By Aaron Blake August 23, 2021 at 11:40 a.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/23/trump-booed-gop-vaccines/

****

In order for you to sell your cooked cheap tribalist narrative and to keep pushing the agenda of the activist complicit MSM,  you'd have to avoid the truth in that the said "vocal minority" could actually be Donald Trump.

You've managed to shape a narrative here where Trump is actually looking like a pandemic hero. Not from a single Conservative and/or Republican here on this topic, but just solely from you.

Your lazy ugly tribalism just turned you into a MAGA billboard. Congratulations.

If you weren't so lazy you would know that I suggested branding this as the Trump vaccine well before it was mentioned here.  Maybe spend more time reading than regurgitating others headlines.  Just some advice if you want to stop turning yourself into a billboard for posting foolishness.

 

[GordonGekko]

Are there any conservative posters left around these parts who meet ALL of the following criteria?

1. You believe Trump lost the election, as in it wasn't stolen from him.

2. You believe the vaccine works and isn't killing people in large numbers.

3. You think the people who entered Congress last January weren't Patriots (not New England Patriots).

...Kind of ironic given that we disagree on a majority of issues.....

Direct Headline: ‘The vaccines do work:’ Trump says he’s proud of the coronavirus vaccines but rejects any mandates

“The vaccines do work,” he said on the “John Fredericks Show,” a conservative talk radio program. “And they are effective. So here’s my thing: I think I saved millions and millions of lives around the world. We would have had another Spanish flu...And now countries are using our vaccines, and it’s tremendous,” Trump added. “It’s tremendously successful...I love our people, so I want our people to take the vaccines. But at the same time, I have to tell you, you can’t mandate it. You can’t force it. And I don’t think it’s going to be necessary because this thing is going to eventually go away.”

By Eugene Scott September 1, 2021 at 6:27 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vaccine-coronavirus-mandates/2021/09/01/34e23604-0b6f-11ec-9781-07796ffb56fe_story.html

Direct Headline: Donald Trump told his supporters he got a coronavirus booster shot. They booed him.

Former president Donald Trump found himself in a rare position on Sunday — getting booed by his own supporters after he told them he’d gotten a coronavirus vaccine booster. Trump was in Dallas with conservative pundit Bill O’Reilly for the final stop of their two-man live interview show, “The History Tour,” when Trump started taking credit for his administration developing vaccines that have “saved tens of millions of lives worldwide.” He told the crowd to be proud of the coronavirus vaccines and said that bad-mouthing their effectiveness is “playing right into their hands,” an apparent reference to their shared political enemies.

By Jonathan Edwards December 21, 2021 at 6:50 a.m. EST

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/21/donald-trump-covid-booster/

****

I don't prevent you from making #### up out of thin air to fulfill some zealot induced radicalized tribalism. That's your free speech, even if it's ugly and it's anti-community and it's going to drive away paying subscribers.

But once you use that as a vehicle to try to run over all Conservatives and/or Republicans here, then you'll get the confrontation that you are clearly demanding.

Donald Trump believes the vaccines work and he has consistently encouraged people to go get them. And yet the radical left here wants to pretend that doesn't exist at all. Which is why there is a cheap desire to engage in logical fallacy bombing, ad hominem, gas lighting, sealioning, source policing and just about everything else except just plain raising level of discussion.

At some point, you are going to have to ask yourself how much of this that you really want. The problem with many radical leftists here is that their eyes are bigger than their stomach.

 

[GordonGekko]

Are there any conservative posters left around these parts who meet ALL of the following criteria?

1. You believe Trump lost the election, as in it wasn't stolen from him.

2. You believe the vaccine works and isn't killing people in large numbers.

3. You think the people who entered Congress last January weren't Patriots (not New England Patriots).

....If you weren't so lazy you would know that I suggested branding this as the Trump vaccine well before it was mentioned here.  Maybe spend more time reading than regurgitating others headlines.  Just some advice if you want to stop turning yourself into a billboard for posting foolishness...

VIDEO: 'Get vaccinated': Gov. DeSantis' COVID-19 orders become clear May 4, 2021

“So my message is the vaccines protect you, get vaccinated, and then live your life as if you’re protected,” DeSantis said.

https://youtu.be/VW33DNBy4L8?t=62

VIDEO: DeSantis on people not getting vaccinated Jul 21, 2021

Most of them don’t believe COVID-19 is a hoax, DeSantis said. Most unvaccinated people are younger, and therefore, they’re calculating that they could handle an infection, a decision he said he understands. To reach unvaccinated people, it’s important to be honest about the risks of COVID-19, he added. “I think that the more they’re hectored by government officials or some of these folks, that is not going to get them to yes, I can tell you that right now,” DeSantis said. “I think these are folks that have skepticism of authorities.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEI4QdwGgac

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/442685-ron-desantis-urges-vaccinations-blames-mainstream-messaging-for-skeptics/

Direct Headline: DeSantis: Those Who Don't Vaccinate May Be Wrong, But It's Their Choice

Gov. Ron DeSantis says people who decide not to get a COVID-19 vaccine might be making the wrong choice, but he defends their right to choose. Speaking in Doral, DeSantis agreed Tuesday that vaccines save lives. “There are some of those folks who may make a decision that’s not ultimately the right decision for them,” DeSantis said at a news conference Tuesday in Miami-Dade. “There’s obviously probably people that have been hospitalized who probably wouldn’t have been if they had done that...But to take somebody’s job away? These are cops, these are firefighters. These people have been on the front lines for us for this whole pandemic, and if someone needed their help, whether they were COVID positive or not, these guys were on the scene.”

By Associated Press Published September 15, 2021 at 11:34 AM EDT

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/politics-issues/2021-09-15/desantis-those-who-dont-vaccinate-may-be-wrong-but-its-their-choice

*****

I'm waiting for you, and others here are waiting for you, to show us all how and why and when all Conservatives and/or Republicans here in the PSF and up to 100 million American citizens, Conservatives and/or Republicans alike, are saying the vaccine is"killing people in large numbers".

Ron DeSantis is a legitimate 2024 POTUS contender and he's Pro Vaccine and Anti-Mandate. He believes in choice, even if that choice ends up being the wrong decision for some people. He also points out many First Responders and health care professionals took massive risks to show up each day to work when there was no vaccine and there no prediction on if or when a vaccine would arrive or where the virus might go or mutate, and that to start taking their jobs is an attack on their sacrifice and service for the public good. He also points out that bullying people and shaming them and attacking them isn't the best way to get them to listen to you or to do as you ask.

What's wrong with any of that? There's nothing wrong with any of that. You just decided to attack all Conservatives and/or Republicans here in the PSF and feel the need to quadruple down on smearing the entire community with your tribalism.

Your free speech is yours. But each time you want to logical fallacy bomb every last Conservative here, I'll see that it costs you.

 

[Sand]

But each time you want to logical fallacy bomb every last Conservative here, I'll see that it costs you.

  Lighten up, Francis.  It was/is a good subject of discussion.

 

[GordonGekko]

Raising the level of discussion?

By making baseless accusations that BassNBrew is trying to silence conservatives?  By accusing him of smearing millions of people?  By using terms like "low information" on a near daily basis?  

These posts are dismissive, snarky, inflammatory and condescending...and do nothing to help raise any level of discussion or discourse.

Direct Headline: Week In Politics: Republicans Urge Vaccine Hesitant Citizens To Get The Shot

SIMON: Governor Ivey, Senator McConnell - of course, both Republicans. A number of Republicans this week made a vocal push for vaccinations.

ELVING: That's right. There's been a mini surge of people who decided it was time to be on the right side of history, on the right side of science. And we should say this is more than welcome. It's just what we talked about a week ago, people stepping up in the most affected parts of the country to be advocates for their own people's health...

Ron Elving July 24, 20217:40 AM ET

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/24/1020088155/week-in-politics-republicans-urge-vaccine-hesitant-citizens-to-get-the-shot

Direct Headline: Growing number of Republicans urge vaccinations amid delta surge

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) was part of the rising chorus on Tuesday, stressing the need for unvaccinated Americans to receive coronavirus shots and warning that the country could reverse its progress in moving on from the pandemic. “These shots need to get in everybody’s arm as rapidly as possible, or we’re going to be back in a situation in the fall that we don’t yearn for, that we went through last year,” McConnell said during his weekly news conference. “I want to encourage everybody to do that and to ignore all of these other voices that are giving demonstrably bad advice.”

By Marianna Sotomayor, Jacqueline Alemany and Mike DeBonis July 21, 2021 at 10:15 a.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/growing-number-of-republicans-urge-vaccinations-amid-delta-surge/2021/07/20/52a06e9c-e999-11eb-8950-d73b3e93ff7f_story.html

******

 "On 1/3/2022 at 4:42 PM, BassNBrew said:

Are there any conservative posters left around these parts who meet ALL of the following criteria?

1. You believe Trump lost the election, as in it wasn't stolen from him.

2. You believe the vaccine works and isn't killing people in large numbers.

3. You think the people who entered Congress last January weren't Patriots (not New England Patriots)."

You are pointing your finger at me talking about baseless accusations but you are desperately trying to defend some unhinged zealot trying to sell the narrative that Conservatives here and out in the world are saying the vaccine is "killing people in large numbers"?

Those accusations don't last long when I post source after source citing name brand Republicans telling people to go get the shot. To get the COVID19 vaccine for the good of all of America. They just don't want mandates and they just don't want to see people lose their jobs and livelihoods over it. What exactly is wrong with that position?

There is nothing wrong with that position. It's just different than yours. You want silence from the Conservatives here. Your endless cheap dirty routine of source policing them is a way to call Conservatives and/or Republicans here liars without taking a banning for it. Of course to do it here would require you to hammer down on The Washington Post and NPR. If you want to try to gaslight me, at least show some actual skill in the attempt.

Here's a crazy thought - There aren't masses of American citizens, on either side of the aisle, who are saying the COVID19 vaccines will kill a large number of people.

It's completely and totally pathetic that this point needs to actually be explained to other supposed adults. Just pitiful.

 

[sho nuff]

Ahh more insults…

No…I don’t want to silence conservatives. Neither dos BNB.  That is yet another baseless assertion.

That again is mot raising any level of discussion or discourse.

 

[bigbottom]

Your free speech is yours. But each time you want to logical fallacy bomb every last Conservative here, I'll see that it costs you.

I’m reminded of an observation that I’ve long had about pranks. Like the prank where a person’s office cubicle and all its contents are all meticulously covered in tin foil. Or where a person’s dorm room is filled floor to ceiling with inflated balloons. I’ve always thought that if the prank takes a bunch of work to prepare, and only a fraction of that to undo, it’s not really that great of a prank. Or at least it’s a prank that cost the prankster more than the prankee.  So to the bolded, given the significant time and effort you’ve put in these multiple posts, I feel like it’s cost you as much or more than it has cost him. 

 

[JIslander]

I’m reminded of an observation that I’ve long had about pranks. Like the prank where a person’s office cubicle and all its contents are all meticulously covered in tin foil. Or where a person’s dorm room is filled floor to ceiling with inflated balloons. I’ve always thought that if the prank takes a bunch of work to prepare, and only a fraction of that to undo, it’s not really that great of a prank. Or at least it’s a prank that cost the prankster more than the prankee.  So to the bolded, given the significant time and effort you’ve put in these multiple posts, I feel like it’s cost you as much or more than it has cost him. 

Like The Office...Jim putting Dwights stapler in jello 

 

[tymarsas]

Like The Office...Jim putting Dwights stapler in jello 

I was definitely thinking about this one: https://youtu.be/pK3se4G1Grs. That had to take a long time, but the payoff is pretty good.

 

[BassNBrew]

Here's a crazy thought - There aren't masses of American citizens, on either side of the aisle, who are saying the COVID19 vaccines will kill a large number of people.

It's completely and totally pathetic that this point needs to actually be explained to other supposed adults. Just pitiful.

Are there any conservative posters left around these parts who meet ALL of the following criteria?

I understand that reading comprehension can be difficult, but it would be a much better use of your time to cease the low value postings and read a little more.

DIRECT HEADLINE: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/featured-topic/covid-19-vaccine-myths-debunked

The mayo clinic isn't posting articles about myths because of a few people on the fringe.

DIRECT HEADLINE: One in five Americans believes the US government is using the COVID-19 vaccine to microchip the population  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/07/15/why-wont-americans-get-vaccinated-poll-data

https://www.science.org/content/article/just-50-americans-plan-get-covid-19-vaccine-here-s-how-win-over-rest

DIRECT HEADLINE: 

1 in 5 Americans believes microchips are hidden in COVID vaccines, poll finds

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article252883663.html

 

[BassNBrew]

I’m reminded of an observation that I’ve long had about pranks. Like the prank where a person’s office cubicle and all its contents are all meticulously covered in tin foil. Or where a person’s dorm room is filled floor to ceiling with inflated balloons. I’ve always thought that if the prank takes a bunch of work to prepare, and only a fraction of that to undo, it’s not really that great of a prank. Or at least it’s a prank that cost the prankster more than the prankee.  So to the bolded, given the significant time and effort you’ve put in these multiple posts, I feel like it’s cost you as much or more than it has cost him. 

And on this note, I'll try to refrain from taking any more of @gordon gekko 's bait.

 

[Sand]

I’m reminded of an observation that I’ve long had about pranks. Like the prank where a person’s office cubicle and all its contents are all meticulously covered in tin foil. Or where a person’s dorm room is filled floor to ceiling with inflated balloons. I’ve always thought that if the prank takes a bunch of work to prepare, and only a fraction of that to undo, it’s not really that great of a prank. Or at least it’s a prank that cost the prankster more than the prankee.  So to the bolded, given the significant time and effort you’ve put in these multiple posts, I feel like it’s cost you as much or more than it has cost him. 

In college we saved copies of the school paper for months and one day pulled them all apart and completely filled a guy's room, floor to ceiling, with newspaper.  

I'm pretty sure it was more work for us to prepare than to clean up, but it was totally worth it.  Can you really put a relative worth on works of art like this?

 

[BladeRunner]

And on this note, I'll try to refrain from taking any more of @gordon gekko 's bait.

I'm not so sure it's the other way around. 

 

[rustycolts]

This isn't really the case.  The COVID vaccines are pretty similar to the polio vaccines, really.  The polio vaccine wasn't 100% effective at preventing breakthrough cases either.  However, it was effective enough that once 95%+ of people were vaccinated, polio couldn't continue to spread enough to survive.  If we could have waved a magic wand and vaccinated the entire world population all at once for COVID, COVID would have died off as well.  Unfortunately, COVID is more contagious, people move around a lot more and a lot faster than they did then, and we have a lot more vax resistant people nowadays, both in this country and worldwide.

I just want to say that it is posts like this one that has kept me coming back here year after year for 19 years. During that time I lurked more than I posted.Reason being there are some pretty intelligent posters in this forum. Which can be pretty Intimidating for an ol redneck from Lake County FL to ingage in conversation with. Now I will say sometimes I shake my head in wonderment on how someone can think the way they do but to each there own.

What I am saying is that the brain needs just as much exercise as the muscles in your body. So after Richs post I researched and it took 18 years to eradicate polio from the US after vaccine was developed for use and another 12 to get it completely eradicated from the Western hemisphere.  Measles it took close to 30 to eradicate it from the US . Though it is making a small  comeback. I love learning new things.

Also proud to say it took me 17 years of those 19 to get my first suspension.  That was because I felt very strongly and very emotinal about something that happened during the riots because of something that happened to a good friend of mine earlier in life. I could have worded it differently expressing the same outcome for the criminal. Was a little aggravated about the suspension but hey I wouldn't stop shopping at Publix cuz I got one bad tomato. 

Anyway thanks Rich you got me to exercise my brain a little tonight .

 

[dkp993]

I just want to say that it is posts like this one that has kept me coming back here year after year for 19 years. During that time I lurked more than I posted.Reason being there are some pretty intelligent posters in this forum. Which can be pretty Intimidating for an ol redneck from Lake County FL to ingage in conversation with. Now I will say sometimes I shake my head in wonderment on how someone can think the way they do but to each there own.

What I am saying is that the brain needs just as much exercise as the muscles in your body. So after Richs post I researched and it took 18 years to eradicate polio from the US after vaccine was developed for use and another 12 to get it completely eradicated from the Western hemisphere.  Measles it took close to 30 to eradicate it from the US . Though it is making a small  comeback. I love learning new things.

Also proud to say it took me 17 years of those 19 to get my first suspension.  That was because I felt very strongly and very emotinal about something that happened during the riots because of something that happened to a good friend of mine earlier in life. I could have worded it differently expressing the same outcome for the criminal. Was a little aggravated about the suspension but hey I wouldn't stop shopping at Publix cuz I got one bad tomato. 

Anyway thanks Rich you got me to exercise my brain a little tonight .

Great post Rusty.  You’re a good egg.  I’ve always enjoyed your posts and perspectives (even when I disagree).  Post more around here, voices like yours are needed round these parts.  

 

[GordonGekko]

DIRECT HEADLINE: One in five Americans believes the US government is using the COVID-19 vaccine to microchip the population  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/07/15/why-wont-americans-get-vaccinated-poll-data

https://www.science.org/content/article/just-50-americans-plan-get-covid-19-vaccine-here-s-how-win-over-rest

DIRECT HEADLINE: 

1 in 5 Americans believes microchips are hidden in COVID vaccines, poll finds

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article252883663.html

Direct Headline: U.S. Senator Roger Marshall pushes for vaccination amid reports of low demand

U.S. Senator Roger Marshall is urging people to get vaccinated, after some reports show a slow down in people receiving vaccinations in the state. News Apr 22, 2021 / 08:29 PM CDT

https://www.ksnt.com/video/u-s-senator-roger-marshall-pushes-for-vaccination-amid-reports-of-low-demand/6559692/

Direct Headline: Sen. Roger Marshall says ‘shame on you’ to seniors who didn’t get a COVID booster shot

“So, our plan is to be honest with Americans. About 30% of Americans right now have chosen not to get the vaccine. But what the biggest impact would be right now is to get boosters into seniors. That’s what’s going to stop hospitalizations and stop deaths. If you’re a senior citizen and haven’t got your booster yet, shame on you. Please go do that...I think being honest with America is the plan. We know that mandates don’t work. From a practical standpoint, mandates are going to cause an economic shutdown, it’s going to exacerbate inflation, it’s going to cause brownouts, it’s going to cause supply chain disruptions, and national security issues...I support the vaccines but not the mandates...Look as a physician, I was never able to talk to anybody in stopping smoking by a mandate or by trying to argue with them. It was by being honest and communicating with them. I would just encourage all those folks who have not got the vaccine yet to talk to their doctor about it...And by the way, let’s talk about eating healthy and exercising every day, and getting seven hours of sleep and avoiding stress. Those are the things that we could all be doing to help minimize the impact of this virus.” by Christopher Tremoglie December 12, 2021 02:04 PM

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/sen-roger-marshall-says-shame-on-you-to-seniors-who-didnt-get-a-covid-booster-shot

Direct Headline: Roger Marshall is at war against vaccine mandates. His weapon of choice? Natural immunity

Roger Marshall, physician turned U.S. Senator, is waging a battle in Congress against vaccine mandates. Last week, he signed onto an effort to overturn the new rule issued by President Joe Biden’s administration requiring most private employers to have their workers vaccinated or tested weekly by Jan. 4. He pledged not to vote on a bill to fund the government unless it contains a provision that would nullify the mandate. He filed an amendment to guarantee that anyone who doesn’t comply with the military’s vaccine mandate must be honorably discharged. Marshall is vaccinated and he recommends that people do the same.  By Daniel Desrochers November 08, 2021 5:00 AM

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article255572211.html

Sen. Marshall Leads Effort to Defund the Vaccine Mandate

10 Senators Pledge Objections to Spending Packages Unless Vaccine Mandate is Defunded. Senator Marshall introduced the COVID-19 Vaccine Dishonorable Discharge Prevention Act to prohibit the Department of Defense from giving service members a dishonorable discharge for choosing not to receive a COVID-19 vaccine. U.S. Senator Roger Marshall, M.D. November 3, 2021

https://www.marshall.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-marshall-leads-effort-to-defund-the-vaccine-mandate/

*****

Your position is that 68 million American citizens believe that the COVID19 vaccine has a microchip implanted in it.

SIXTY EIGHT MILLION AMERICANS.

Add this to the 5-7 people you know in your personal life that pissed you off for making personal medical decisions and voting decisions that don't line up with yours and a couple of posters somewhere and some time that said something to trigger you, and you've decided to smear wide sweeping ranges of the entire American population as a bizarre unhinged tribalistic response.

Let's talk about Senator Roger Marshall, a Republican from Kansas who is also a physician. Does he sound like he's part of the Conservative death cabal that you keep shouting about?

Marshall is Pro Vaccine and Pro Booster but Anti-Mandate. He says these crazy things like you can't effectively get compliance by carpet bombing people with mandates and shaming them and arguing with them. He talks about making attempts to get more effective communication with the public and get more people to talk to their doctors and so people can try to make the best informed decision for themselves. He also talks about (gasp) people eating healthier, exercising, operating with good sleep patterns/sleep hygiene and controlling issues that can help one recover from COVID19. He also wants those who served and fought for this country to not be dishonorably discharged for not taking the vaccine and for elected officials to see the large scale economic fallout of sweeping policies like mandates.

Does any of that sound unreasonable to anyone here? Does anyone believe 68 million American citizens are terrified of a "microchip" in the vaccines? Does anyone believe Roger Marshall is part of this overwhelming death cabal that BassNBrew keeps shouting about?

Nothing you are saying comes close to functional objective reality.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Nonsense?  Danger it poses?  You don't want to answer. 

Do you think Biden got 81 million votes?

I'm surprised Trump got 81 votes.

But I can acknowledge everyone doesn't share my values.

 

[Terminalxylem]

1. I don't think the election was stolen but I think the anti Trump propaganda spewed by main stream media for four years effected the election in a major way. Propaganda is a proven powerful tool. People fall for it and never realize it.

I do believe vaccines work but are these vaccines or are they simply like a flu shot. Vaccines usually eradicate the disease don't they. Not a doctor but that's what I always thought. I am fully vaxxed and boosted if that's what its called.

As far as the protestors some were protestors and some were idiots. It's easy to identify the difference. Ones inside the Capital fit one criteria and the ones that) stayed outside fit the other. I don't think either were patriots. A patriot is someone who is willing to put his life on the line to serve and defend this country.

I just hope this country can heal itself before I die.

1. There's propaganda on both sides of the aisle. Absent the media's influence, do you think Trump would have won?

2. No, not all vaccines eradicate disease. As evidence, we've only eliminated two disease in the history of mankind via vaccination. 

And flu shots are vaccines.

3. If you don't believe the election was stolen, were the Capitol protesters justified in their efforts?

 

[BladeRunner]

1. There's propaganda on both sides of the aisle. Absent the media's influence, do you think Trump would have won?

2. No, not all vaccines eradicate disease. As evidence, we've only eliminated two disease in the history of mankind via vaccination. 

And flu shots are vaccines.

3. If you don't believe the election was stolen, were the Capitol protesters justified in their efforts?

Is this another litmus test prove your conservative Bona fides?

And, if so, should you really be the one determining the questions? 

 

[rustycolts]

1. There's propaganda on both sides of the aisle. Absent the media's influence, do you think Trump would have won?

2. No, not all vaccines eradicate disease. As evidence, we've only eliminated two disease in the history of mankind via vaccination. 

And flu shots are vaccines.

3. If you don't believe the election was stolen, were the Capitol protesters justified in their efforts?

Absent the media and the virus yes I think he would have won. That one two punch ended his chances. Also Americans love their freebies if he had got those stimulus checks out before the election that could have changed outcome. Also the propaganda machine was much larger and much more efficient against Trump than Biden.

2. Yes thanks to Rich I learned tonight that vaccines do not work overnight. Because I'm not a medical guy still really not understanding why those vaccinated are still getting sick. Is a flu shot a type of vaccine? Asking because  I don't know.

3. Listen again Americans are allowed to protest. However they should protest legally. I don't believe those that invaded the Capital were protestestors as I said they were idiots. Just like those that were rioting and looting and burning cities this summer were not protestors they were criminals. Lastly none of these people are patriots. Patriots are the folks that put their lives on the line for our country. There are even a very few politicians that are patriots Tulsi and Crenshaw for example and even though I disagreed with him quite a bit towards the end John McCain was a great American patriot.

Oh and you are one of those guys I get intimidated to talk  too. That's a compliment. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

2. Yes thanks to Rich I learned tonight that vaccines do not work overnight. Because I'm not a medical guy still really not understanding why those vaccinated are still getting sick. Is a flu shot a type of vaccine? Asking because  I don't know.

Yes, the flu shot is a vaccine. In a typical year, it's only 50%-60% effective, because the influenza virus mutates so much faster than a coronavirus, so when they develop the vaccine each year they're only guessing at what it will look like in a few months. The Covid vaccines aren't perfect, but they're way more effective than a typical flu shot.

I heard an analogy the other day that I found super helpful for understanding vaccines. Hopefully you will, too:

Think of your body as a castle, the virus as an invading army, and the vaccine as a wall builder. In most cases the wall will keep the army out. But some walls won't be tall enough to stop the army, and some will be a height that should be plenty tall enough, only it turns out this particular army had ladders that allow them to scale the wall. Nonetheless, in both cases the wall will at least slow them down, so you're still better off than if you had no wall whatsoever.

Oh and you are one of those guys I get intimidated to talk  too. That's a compliment. 

Totally relate to that. Sometimes I'll post a theory in the FFA Covid thread, and I'll feel the need to add a disclaimer inviting Terminal, Doug B and the other smart guys to tell me if I'm full of it. To his everlasting credit, Terminal is always very nice in his replies even when my theory is way off base. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Absent the media and the virus yes I think he would have won. That one two punch ended his chances. Also Americans love their freebies if he had got those stimulus checks out before the election that could have changed outcome. Also the propaganda machine was much larger and much more efficient against Trump than Biden.

2. Yes thanks to Rich I learned tonight that vaccines do not work overnight. Because I'm not a medical guy still really not understanding why those vaccinated are still getting sick. Is a flu shot a type of vaccine? Asking because  I don't know.

3. Listen again Americans are allowed to protest. However they should protest legally. I don't believe those that invaded the Capital were protestestors as I said they were idiots. Just like those that were rioting and looting and burning cities this summer were not protestors they were criminals. Lastly none of these people are patriots. Patriots are the folks that put their lives on the line for our country. There are even a very few politicians that are patriots Tulsi and Crenshaw for example and even though I disagreed with him quite a bit towards the end John McCain was a great American patriot.

Oh and you are one of those guys I get intimidated to talk  too. That's a compliment. 

I'm not trying to intimidate anyone. Sorry if my tone/verbiage contributes to that feeling. As to your points:

1. I think Trump was losing regardless, because of his behavior and failed policy. The media certainly did him no favors, but he made his own bed, especially evident in pandemic mismanagement. 

2. Rich did a great job explaining vaccines don't eliminate disease without near universal acceptance. And it takes a long time to vaccinate several billion people, when infection is worldwide.

Even then, other factors, like animal reservoirs (places for infectious agents to hide) and non-sterilizing immunity (inability to instantly kill all the bug) make it virtually impossible for any vaccine to be perfect. This article sums it up for the covid vaccines. 

And yes, the flu shot is a vaccine, that is, a tool which primes the body's immune system to fight infection (or cancer) by exposing it to a weakened bug, or part of it.

I have no idea why people started making the distinction between "shots" and "vaccines". Heck, there are formulations of flu vaccination that don't even involve injections.

3. The protestors who invaded the Capitol were criminals, as were some who remained outside (assaulting cops, vandalizing property, etc.). But all were misguided, even those exercising their right to protest legally. I'm not sure exactly where misguided and idiotic overlap, but we can agree none were heroes. One could argue they were patriotic, inasmuch as they were motivated by love of country, no matter how perverse their actions appeared.

 

[rustycolts]

@TerminalxylemHey I know your not trying to be intimidating.  Your just a smart guy and I get intimidated talking to smart folks sometimes afraid I'll sound dumb..

Now on the other hand of course I would have to be about 20 years younger but physically no one intimidated me. Hell I'd walk into a bar back in the day find the biggest guy I could and start talking about his Mama. I have as I've gotten older got a little smarter than that not much but a little anyway.

 

[Rich Conway]

I just want to say that it is posts like this one that has kept me coming back here year after year for 19 years. During that time I lurked more than I posted.Reason being there are some pretty intelligent posters in this forum. Which can be pretty Intimidating for an ol redneck from Lake County FL to ingage in conversation with. Now I will say sometimes I shake my head in wonderment on how someone can think the way they do but to each there own.

What I am saying is that the brain needs just as much exercise as the muscles in your body. So after Richs post I researched and it took 18 years to eradicate polio from the US after vaccine was developed for use and another 12 to get it completely eradicated from the Western hemisphere.  Measles it took close to 30 to eradicate it from the US . Though it is making a small  comeback. I love learning new things.

Also proud to say it took me 17 years of those 19 to get my first suspension.  That was because I felt very strongly and very emotinal about something that happened during the riots because of something that happened to a good friend of mine earlier in life. I could have worded it differently expressing the same outcome for the criminal. Was a little aggravated about the suspension but hey I wouldn't stop shopping at Publix cuz I got one bad tomato. 

Anyway thanks Rich you got me to exercise my brain a little tonight .

To be fair, this is something I learned here on FBG from @Terminalxylem, so I echo your sentiments!

 

[lazyike]

I say yes to all three.  Kinda easy.   I imagine CNN would tell you something different though

If you were a member of the House you would be primaried and could lose committee assignments. Maybe a trip to Mar a lago would straighten your Rinoism out.

 

[Sand]

I imagine CNN would tell you something different though

No worries - no one is watching.

 

[Joe Mammy]

Hell I'd walk into a bar back in the day find the biggest guy I could and start talking about his Mama. 

Pays to be midsized.

 

[rockaction]

I'm a proud conservative and I despise the GOP. Any other questions?

What do you make of the new intellectual right and their encouragement of anti-democratic arguments and policies? By that, I mean what do you make of those that explicitly argue against liberal democracy as a form of government? 

This line of thought has gained serious truck on the right. I personally would not call myself a member of the current American right, or even "conservative," in any colloquial way anymore. I'd have to explain to people every time that nativists and those who were against republics and democracies had stolen my point on the right of the political spectrum, and I had, as a classical liberal, moved leftward along that line out of necessity and for intellectual accuracy's sake. 

It would be a pain to describe it every time I used the word "conservative." People would be honestly confused over my positions. A lament: First they took away "liberal" from classical liberal and made it statist, then they took the word "conservative" away for all pragmatic shorthand intents and purposes. It leaves me to just have to say "classical liberal" and be done with it. 

 

[BladeRunner]

What do you make of the new intellectual right and their encouragement of anti-democratic arguments and policies? By that, I mean what do you make of those that explicitly argue against liberal democracy as a form of government? 

This line of thought has gained serious truck on the right. I personally would not call myself a member of the current American right, or even "conservative," in any colloquial way anymore. I'd have to explain to people every time that nativists and those who were against republics and democracies had stolen my point on the right of the political spectrum, and I had, as a classical liberal, moved leftward along that line out of necessity and for intellectual accuracy's sake. 

It would be a pain to describe it every time I used the word "conservative." People would be honestly confused over my positions. A lament: First they took away "liberal" from classical liberal and made it statist, then they took the word "conservative" away for all pragmatic shorthand intents and purposes. It leaves me to just have to say "classical liberal" and be done with it. 

Sorry, rock, but what are you talking about per the bolded?  What anti-democratic arguments and policies?

 

[rockaction]

Sorry, rock, but what are you talking about per the bolded?  What anti-democratic arguments and policies?

The part of the intellectual right that is openly supporting illiberal forms of government. 

See the links and sources included in this article. 

https://scholars-stage.org/the-problem-of-the-new-right/

 

[Yankee23Fan]

What do you make of the new intellectual right and their encouragement of anti-democratic arguments and policies? By that, I mean what do you make of those that explicitly argue against liberal democracy as a form of government? 

This line of thought has gained serious truck on the right. I personally would not call myself a member of the current American right, or even "conservative," in any colloquial way anymore. I'd have to explain to people every time that nativists and those who were against republics and democracies had stolen my point on the right of the political spectrum, and I had, as a classical liberal, moved leftward along that line out of necessity and for intellectual accuracy's sake. 

It would be a pain to describe it every time I used the word "conservative." People would be honestly confused over my positions. A lament: First they took away "liberal" from classical liberal and made it statist, then they took the word "conservative" away for all pragmatic shorthand intents and purposes. It leaves me to just have to say "classical liberal" and be done with it. 

I haven't had enough coffee yet to answer this the way it needs be answered. But I think my 30,000 foot answer is that it isn't a movement grounded in a philosophical plan, but more the tantrum of petulant children thinking they are men, demanding respect they don't deserve, looking for someone to blame and there are just enough of them that we have to wonder what their grand movement means.

To me there is no intellectual right. Not right now. The ones that call themselves that are the same people that remind you at the bar that. You k on, I'm a pretty important person. 

And I'm not one of them anymore either. I likely never will be again. 

 

[BladeRunner]

The part of the intellectual right that is openly supporting illiberal forms of government. 

See the links and sources included in this article. 

https://scholars-stage.org/the-problem-of-the-new-right/

I literally just read the first paragraph and disagree with this new intellectual right already. Thanks for the blank and I'll read the rest of it later when I get back.

 

[rockaction]

the same people that remind you at the bar that. You k on, I'm a pretty important person.

This seems like a really important point and the crux of your answer, but its syntax is off, at least to me, so I'm trying to make sense of it, but really can't. 

Sorry about that. Any chance you can clarify a little? 

 

[AAABatteries]

And on this note, I'll try to refrain from taking any more of @gordon gekko 's bait.

THANK YOU

 

[djmich]

The part of the intellectual right that is openly supporting illiberal forms of government. 

See the links and sources included in this article. 

https://scholars-stage.org/the-problem-of-the-new-right/

Hey Rock, which part of this discription would you consider illiberal?  I wouldn't say I agree with these (they're overall pretty vague so hard to be firm on that), but I'm not sure I would call them illiberal

Of tariffs and industrial policy, they are unequivocally in favor. Government economic intervention is to be lauded, if such intervention revitalizes the heartland and secures the dignity of the working-class man. Both tech companies and high finance are viewed with suspicion. New Right figures are the conservatives most likely to be calling for Section 230 reform and least likely to care about corporate tax rates. The New Right distrusts capital.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This seems like a really important point and the crux of your answer, but its syntax is off, at least to me, so I'm trying to make sense of it, but really can't. 

Sorry about that. Any chance you can clarify a little? 

The person who has to claim at the bar while in the middle of a conversation or while trying to get someone's attention that they are "a very important person" isn't.

 

[rockaction]

Hey Rock, which part of this discription would you consider illiberal?  I wouldn't say I agree with these (they're overall pretty vague so hard to be firm on that), but I'm not sure I would call them illiberal.

The illiberalism is in the source and hyperlinked part of the article. It's throughout the article. The section you quoted does not touch on illiberalism, per se. This part, about two or three paragraphs down from the section you quoted, specifically deals with illiberal thought becoming en vogue within the American right. 

"Perhaps the most ballyhooed version of this critique comes in Patrick Deneen’s Why Liberalism Failed. Deneen is a political theorist. He beholds America’s ills through the lens of his profession. He discovers the origin of all that ails us in the thought of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, and Francis Bacon, early modern philosophers who reimagined liberty as lack of external restraint and recast humanity as a collection of autonomous and rational self-maximisers. Nowhere have these ideas had more power than in America, whose government “was instituted among men” to secure the “pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” for its individual citizens. In Deneen’s mind this is America’s original sin."

 

[djmich]

The illiberalism is in the source and hyperlinked part of the article. It's throughout the article. The section you quoted does not touch on illiberalism, per se. This part, about two or three paragraphs down from the section you quoted, specifically deals with illiberal thought becoming en vogue within the American right. 

"Perhaps the most ballyhooed version of this critique comes in Patrick Deneen’s Why Liberalism Failed. Deneen is a political theorist. He beholds America’s ills through the lens of his profession. He discovers the origin of all that ails us in the thought of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, and Francis Bacon, early modern philosophers who reimagined liberty as lack of external restraint and recast humanity as a collection of autonomous and rational self-maximisers. Nowhere have these ideas had more power than in America, whose government “was instituted among men” to secure the “pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” for its individual citizens. In Deneen’s mind this is America’s original sin."

Thanks Rock.  Maybe I have to read this whole thing but one of the premises is that the "New Right" thinks that governments role to secure the “pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is bad?  Seems like a lot of nuance might be missing (and again maybe it's all laid out in the rest of the article).

 

[rockaction]

Thanks Rock.  Maybe I have to read this whole thing but one of the premises is that the "New Right" thinks that governments role to secure the “pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is bad?  Seems like a lot of nuance might be missing (and again maybe it's all laid out in the rest of the article).

Yes, that's what the premise is. It's a long-standing complaint among conservatives (George Will, notably) that the original sin of American politics lies in the elevation of Enlightenment rationalists rather than Classical virtue-seekers. You're right and the author of the piece is right -- that's what the author of the piece is saying.  

That is what the New Right is saying in their own words. They're hung up on that exact troika of things. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

To me there is no intellectual right. Not right now.

The right is currently pretty into populism, which tends to shun anything too intellectual.

Nonetheless, I'd say that there are still some right-leaning intellectuals around -- George Will, Jennifer Rubin, David Brooks, David Frum, Max Boot, David French.... The problem is that, at this point, they are usually considered RINOs.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I know a lot of people who are in this group or very close to it.  In fact, the majority of people I know.  People need to realize that when people who voted for Trump get polled they love to mess with the pollsters.  If a pollster calls here, sure I'm telling him I think the election was stolen.  Personally I enjoy having a little fun with them.  

It might be easier to believe that conservatives are fibbing to pollsters exaggerating their shameful beliefs, their terrible positions, their vote if their candidates would start underperforming their polling numbers.  But they don't!   

 

[Shula-holic]

It might be easier to believe that conservatives are fibbing to pollsters exaggerating their shameful beliefs, their terrible positions, their vote if their candidates would start underperforming their polling numbers.  But they don't!   

Considering you think people like me have shameful beliefs and terrible positions then you wouldn't like my answers when I give them to you straight either.

 

[BladeRunner]

Considering you think people like me have shameful beliefs and terrible positions then you wouldn't like my answers when I give them to you straight either.

Why the Left Think They are Better 

https://youtu.be/8qCHRYMe66g