Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Does he know he can't have #12?
Hes not as good?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Not even close to a monster assumption. In his first 8 (got hurt in game 9), Percy was on pace for 120-1334-6 and that is with Ponder throwing for 180 yards a game. Wilson's going to be a lot closer to 4000 yards this year than his rookie year. After watching Wilson get better and throwing in Harvin, I would be excited to be a Seattle fan.Assuming a 16 game season, I'd probably go under slightly/over/over. An 80-1100-8 type year?Of course, that's a monster assumption.His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
He might not be as dynamic in terms of contributing to kickoffs and running plays, but Cruz IMO is way more resourceful as a WR than Harvin.Hes not as good?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
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Havin only played one full season without missing time due to medical issues, wants Calvin Johnson money, head case, smart move by the vikings.
I disagreeHe might not be as dynamic in terms of contributing to kickoffs and running plays, but Cruz IMO is way more resourceful as a WR than Harvin.Hes not as good?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
And he gets some trick/nontraditional plays we don't see for many other WR's with his rushes. I'm not sure you see that as much with a running QB and teams keeping help in low to counter Wilson taking off. So I'm not sure this is a good thing for Harvin despite not having Ponder throwing to him anymore...His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
Sirius NFL. Not sure of their source............I will ask him and try to get right back.What's his source?I friend of mine just told me Wallace has agreed and is signing with Miami.As a Mike Wallace owner, in no way do I want Ponder throwing him the ball.
Also some guy from Palm Beach Press reporting it.Ben Volin is the number one source for Dolphins info and he's saying Mike Wallace is a done deal.
Which is why I like this deal for the Vikings. It wasn't working out, they save money, and get some good chips to use on talent in the draft.I see what you mean. I think the injury was used as an excuse to teach him a lesson for his insubordination.Was it due to the injury or him though? That's my point. I'm guessing, so I may be wrong, but the ankle injury wasn't that bad. My linkNo he couldn't have. The team placed him on IR.That would be the Irritating Rapscallion list.IMO Harvin quit on this team last year and could've played in the playoffs.
In the coming days, we will be hearing not great stories about his time with the Vikings.
that is pretty evident Dont want to hijack this thread as I think Harvin will be a monster with Russel but I would like to know if I am alone in feeling that Cruz was a smarter play for the Hawks.I disagreeHe might not be as dynamic in terms of contributing to kickoffs and running plays, but Cruz IMO is way more resourceful as a WR than Harvin.Hes not as good?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
I was just going on pure stats. And the thing about pro-rating is that sometimes it's simply wishful thinking.Harvin isn't the biggest guy. It's not just the headaches that have caused him to miss games, it's how hard he plays for his size that's a problem too.Putting up the numbers he did in those 2012 games caused a tremendous toll to his body. I don't think he CAN play that hard for 16 games.That really isn't being honest about his best year, is it?In 2012, in 9 games he had 62/677/3 including his last game of 2-10 when Ponder threw for 63 yards and I am pretty sure Harvin was hurt. Prorated, even with that 9th game, that is 110/1203/5, which is an awful lot better than 2011. Heck, looking at only his first 8 instead of the game he was hurt in, prorated for a full season he is 120/1334/6, which is what I remember based on how he was tearing it up in my PPR league.I would think he has a great chance of besting the 2011 numbers and I would bet that his prorated 2012 numbers are a lot more likely as I think Russell Wilson takes a step getting far closer to 4000 yards passing than Ponder will be in 2013. Being a Vikings homer, I can see the thought, but as an outsider I think it is pretty silly to say that you can't see Harvin going over 1000 yards.His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
The Giants would be able to match any offer that Seattle made? Harvin is better than Cruz?They didn't have to compete with other teams?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Wow, the disinformation is flying out here. Harvin played 14, 15 and 16 games in his first 3 years even with the migraine issues that appear to be under control. He had an ankle injury where it appeared the Vikings shut him down. Missing 3 games in his first 3 years is "medical issues" now?Do you think Cruz isn't going to want Calvin Johnson money? Why would he be a discount?All I know is that as a GB fan, I am pretty sure you would think it was a smart move by the Vikings. There is a big percent (probably close to 50%) that an end of the 1st round pick could amount to nothing and Harvin is gone.I think Seattle made a great move and unless Griffin gets back to 100% and/or Tony G plays another year, they and the 49ers should be fighting it out for the SB bid. My money would be on Seattle.Havin only played one full season without missing time due to medical issues, wants Calvin Johnson money, head case, smart move by the vikings.Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Being a Giants fan and following their offseason closely, the Giants would likely take the 1st rounder if Cruz is signed by another squad since they are going to be very tight with the cap and Nicks needs a new contract next year as well.The Giants would be able to match any offer that Seattle made? Harvin is better than Cruz?They didn't have to compete with other teams?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Also, the owners have a gentlemens agreement not to sign RFAs away from other teamsThe Giants would be able to match any offer that Seattle made? Harvin is better than Cruz?They didn't have to compete with other teams?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Also another 342/2 rushing. From a PPR standpoint, I think his value remains high. Like Top 5 in the NFL high, just like it was last year.His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
Sorry, I still disagree. His 2012 games were what his end of year 2011 was like. Not even prorating, his last 16 games (7 in 2011 + all 9 in 2012) are 132-1258-9 and 238-2 rushing.Outside of his ankle, he missed 3 games in 3 years including playing RB, WR and KR. Based on the % of plays behind the LOS in 2012, I would think it is a pretty good bet that he has a better chance of being healthy in Seattle. If you really think Harvin can't get 1000 yards in a season without Ponder, then your purple colored glasses are impeding your view, IMHO.I was just going on pure stats. And the thing about pro-rating is that sometimes it's simply wishful thinking.Harvin isn't the biggest guy. It's not just the headaches that have caused him to miss games, it's how hard he plays for his size that's a problem too.Putting up the numbers he did in those 2012 games caused a tremendous toll to his body. I don't think he CAN play that hard for 16 games.That really isn't being honest about his best year, is it?In 2012, in 9 games he had 62/677/3 including his last game of 2-10 when Ponder threw for 63 yards and I am pretty sure Harvin was hurt. Prorated, even with that 9th game, that is 110/1203/5, which is an awful lot better than 2011. Heck, looking at only his first 8 instead of the game he was hurt in, prorated for a full season he is 120/1334/6, which is what I remember based on how he was tearing it up in my PPR league.I would think he has a great chance of besting the 2011 numbers and I would bet that his prorated 2012 numbers are a lot more likely as I think Russell Wilson takes a step getting far closer to 4000 yards passing than Ponder will be in 2013. Being a Vikings homer, I can see the thought, but as an outsider I think it is pretty silly to say that you can't see Harvin going over 1000 yards.His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
Exactly. How much higher do his numbers have to go from 1300/8 to retain elite WR status? Wilson will be able to get him the ball downfield as well. Seahawks are going to be incredible next year.Also another 342/2 rushing. From a PPR standpoint, I think his value remains high. Like Top 5 in the NFL high, just like it was last year.His best year as a Viking was in 2011 where he went 87/967/6.Which of these numbers go up when he's a Seahawk? I'm not sure any do.What's this do to Harvins value?
Again, there's no way you can say that as fact. It's just wishful thinking that could turn out to be true. I'd say he has even less of a chance to stay healthy considering his high milage and playing style given his body type.Was it more likely that Sidney Rice would be healthier in Seattle than Minnesota?Outside of his ankle, he missed 3 games in 3 years including playing RB, WR and KR. Based on the % of plays behind the LOS in 2012, I would think it is a pretty good bet that he has a better chance of being healthy in Seattle. If you really think Harvin can't get 1000 yards in a season without Ponder, then your purple colored glasses are impeding your view, IMHO.
That is a VERY good way to look at this. With the new tampering period it is VERY likely they already have a deal for a WR. IF so, thats huge for them and could end up being a win-win type of deal.I like Rotoworld's take on this as a big feather in Rick Spielman's hat:
Jeff Ireland wishes he could trade as well as Rick Spielman; the Dolphins traded Brandon Marshall last offseason for two third-rounders, one of which Ireland blew on obvious TE bust Michael Egnew. The Vikings now have four picks in the top 83 this year: Nos. 23, 25, 52, and 83. It's also conceivable that Spielman has already struck an under-the-table deal with a free agent like Greg Jennings.
Do you mean per game stats or total season stats? I don't see how is per game stats will go down much unless the Seahawks use him as more of a deep threat and with less screens/short passes and runs that the Vikes did. You have to like Wilson better than Ponder as his QB, but the only worry I have as a Harvin owner is that he won't get all those short distance touches that guaranteed him a good amount of yards basically every week.Again, there's no way you can say that as fact. It's just wishful thinking that could turn out to be true. I'd say he has even less of a chance to stay healthy considering his high milage and playing style given his body type.Was it more likely that Sidney Rice would be healthier in Seattle than Minnesota?Outside of his ankle, he missed 3 games in 3 years including playing RB, WR and KR. Based on the % of plays behind the LOS in 2012, I would think it is a pretty good bet that he has a better chance of being healthy in Seattle. If you really think Harvin can't get 1000 yards in a season without Ponder, then your purple colored glasses are impeding your view, IMHO.
Look, I'm not saying he's going to regress. He's a great talent. I'm just saying I don't expect much, if any, of a bump in stats.
Per game statsDo you mean per game stats or total season stats? I don't see how is per game stats will go down much unless the Seahawks use him as more of a deep threat and with less screens/short passes and runs that the Vikes did. You have to like Wilson better than Ponder as his QB, but the only worry I have as a Harvin owner is that he won't get all those short distance touches that guaranteed him a good amount of yards basically every week.
Rice Owner: They didn't get him the ball enough last year.Golden Tate owner
Rice had his best year under Bevell and across from Harvin.Rice Owner: They didn't get him the ball enough last year.Golden Tate owner
Assuming he isn't a cap casualty this is great news for Rice. If he is a cap casualty then this is great news for Tate instead.Rice Owner: They didn't get him the ball enough last year.Golden Tate owner
They think Harvin is better.Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
NFL fantasy football: Harvin’s value in SeattleHarvin is a gamble because of the resources Seattle traded. The Seahawks are an organization built on great draft picks, and now they will have fewer turns at the podium. Harvin also will cost No. 1 wide receiver money to retain long-term. Sidney Rice, who is due $8.5 million in each of the next two seasons, also makes No. 1 wide receiver money. Don't expect Rice to be released this offseason, but his status is year-to-year at this point. It's hard to pay so much money at that position.
Be surprised if hes not cut this year or nextRice Owner: They didn't get him the ball enough last year.Golden Tate owner
That also happened to be the year Favre was having his great season in Minny.Rice had his best year under Bevell and across from Harvin.Rice Owner: They didn't get him the ball enough last year.Golden Tate owner
Oh c'mon Andy. Sidney Rice? His first two years he missed 3 games which is what Percy missed total in his first 3 years. In Rice's 4 other seasons, he made it to 16 twice and in the other two years missed 7 and 9 games. Heck, Rice played all 16 games last year and people weren't even sure until right before the season if he was going to start the season. Other than Favre's miracle year, Rice has less receptions in every year than Harvin had in 9 games last year. Rice is not a good comparison to Harvin.Other than Harvin and the Minny staff, I don't know if we will really know how much time Harvin really should have missed last year, but he has had 1 injury cost him multiple games in 4 years and unfortunately, his fight with the staff got him benched for the year, so we don't know how bad it really was.Again, there's no way you can say that as fact. It's just wishful thinking that could turn out to be true. I'd say he has even less of a chance to stay healthy considering his high milage and playing style given his body type.Was it more likely that Sidney Rice would be healthier in Seattle than Minnesota?Outside of his ankle, he missed 3 games in 3 years including playing RB, WR and KR. Based on the % of plays behind the LOS in 2012, I would think it is a pretty good bet that he has a better chance of being healthy in Seattle. If you really think Harvin can't get 1000 yards in a season without Ponder, then your purple colored glasses are impeding your view, IMHO.
Look, I'm not saying he's going to regress. He's a great talent. I'm just saying I don't expect much, if any, of a bump in stats.
And you're just now feeling this way?Golden Tate owner
I'm guessing a Giants fan?He might not be as dynamic in terms of contributing to kickoffs and running plays, but Cruz IMO is way more resourceful as a WR than Harvin.Hes not as good?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Maybe Minnesota will sign Curz now that they have two first round picks.Being a Giants fan and following their offseason closely, the Giants would likely take the 1st rounder if Cruz is signed by another squad since they are going to be very tight with the cap and Nicks needs a new contract next year as well.The Giants would be able to match any offer that Seattle made? Harvin is better than Cruz?They didn't have to compete with other teams?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
This. Pick 23 would be a small price to pay, and they have the cap space.Maybe Minnesota will sign Curz now that they have two first round picks.Being a Giants fan and following their offseason closely, the Giants would likely take the 1st rounder if Cruz is signed by another squad since they are going to be very tight with the cap and Nicks needs a new contract next year as well.The Giants would be able to match any offer that Seattle made? Harvin is better than Cruz?They didn't have to compete with other teams?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Valid question. Cruz will want a good deal of money, too, but hasn't shown the injury issues yet like Harvin. And I highly doubt Cruz will demand top $$ (a la Calvin Johnson territory) like Harvin is. I'd personally rather have Cruz. So why wouldn't a team with a very late 1st rounder, like Seattle, not doing something like that? AND save a couple extra picks?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
Other than spending his entire rookie season on the IR?Valid question. Cruz will want a good deal of money, too, but hasn't shown the injury issues yet like Harvin. And I highly doubt Cruz will demand top $$ (a la Calvin Johnson territory) like Harvin is. I'd personally rather have Cruz. So why wouldn't a team with a very late 1st rounder, like Seattle, not doing something like that? AND save a couple extra picks?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
You're not really trying to understand my point(s). I was just poking fun at you for saying it's likely that Harvin will be healthier in Seattle than Minnesota.1) Harvin will be the same really good player he has been, missing a game here and there, for about the next 2-3 years.Oh c'mon Andy. Sidney Rice? His first two years he missed 3 games which is what Percy missed total in his first 3 years. In Rice's 4 other seasons, he made it to 16 twice and in the other two years missed 7 and 9 games. Heck, Rice played all 16 games last year and people weren't even sure until right before the season if he was going to start the season. Other than Favre's miracle year, Rice has less receptions in every year than Harvin had in 9 games last year. Rice is not a good comparison to Harvin.Other than Harvin and the Minny staff, I don't know if we will really know how much time Harvin really should have missed last year, but he has had 1 injury cost him multiple games in 4 years and unfortunately, his fight with the staff got him benched for the year, so we don't know how bad it really was.Again, there's no way you can say that as fact. It's just wishful thinking that could turn out to be true. I'd say he has even less of a chance to stay healthy considering his high milage and playing style given his body type.Was it more likely that Sidney Rice would be healthier in Seattle than Minnesota?Outside of his ankle, he missed 3 games in 3 years including playing RB, WR and KR. Based on the % of plays behind the LOS in 2012, I would think it is a pretty good bet that he has a better chance of being healthy in Seattle. If you really think Harvin can't get 1000 yards in a season without Ponder, then your purple colored glasses are impeding your view, IMHO.
Look, I'm not saying he's going to regress. He's a great talent. I'm just saying I don't expect much, if any, of a bump in stats.
I will go out on a limb and bet that Harvin plays the whole year (15-16 games), especially if they get him further down the field than Minny did.
It wasn't an IR worthy injury. He got hurt early and used it to stash a young developmental player. When they were down to starting Derek Hagan because Hakeem and Steve Smith got hurt, they admitted as much.Other than spending his entire rookie season on the IR?Valid question. Cruz will want a good deal of money, too, but hasn't shown the injury issues yet like Harvin. And I highly doubt Cruz will demand top $$ (a la Calvin Johnson territory) like Harvin is. I'd personally rather have Cruz. So why wouldn't a team with a very late 1st rounder, like Seattle, not doing something like that? AND save a couple extra picks?Someone explain to me why the SeaHawks didnt just wait a few days to sign Victor Cruz to an offer sheet and give the Giants first round pick as compensation since he is an RFA? Cruz would make the same amount as Harvin most likely, isnt coming off an injury, and isnt a headcase.
He has been a disappointment but I had been optimistic about this season until now.And you're just now feeling this way?Golden Tate owner
Great deal for the Vikes.Per Fox Sports' Jay Glazer:The Seahawks and Vikings have agreed to a trade that send Harvin to Seattle for draft picks, pending Harvin passing a physical— Jay Glazer (@JayGlazer) March 11, 2013Seattle sends this years first round pick and a 7th rounder as well as a mid-round pick next year for Harvin. Win-win for both teams— Jay Glazer (@JayGlazer) March 11, 2013