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FBG Election Poll: Mid-September version (1 Viewer)

Is there anything that could happen in the next 7 weeks to change the way you answered the first que

  • Yes

    Votes: 33 19.3%

  • No

    Votes: 138 80.7%
  • Total voters
    171
renesauz said:
This angers me. Far too many on the right are too quick to question the "Americanism", patriotism, and integrity of anyone on the left simply because they are on the left.
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Sadly, I think what it means to be an American is pretty different based on political affiliation at this point.

 
renesauz said:
This angers me. Far too many on the right are too quick to question the "Americanism", patriotism, and integrity of anyone on the left simply because they are on the left.
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I know right. I support guns (within reason), i think there is a middle between BLM and supporting our police, I think you should work hard and support your community, I'm probably a little liberal when it comes to people rights, I think the right person should be given the job, i support billionaires who built their business from the ground up, I fly my flag proudly.  I won't vote Trump if you paid me

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think I thought the Jorgenson / sitting out numbers would be lower. 

But maybe not. I mainly just thought the results here would be a landslide for Biden. I would have thought it would be in the 70-80% range and it is. 
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The thing missing from this poll to help gain perspective is to see where those votes are coming from....mainly, are they states that are pretty much predestine to be red/blue or are they toss ups...knowing that, I suspect it would be less surprising.

 
Captain Cranks said:
I want no part of whatever America Trump and his crew are attempting to construct.  
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Understood. My guess is there are lots of people like you.

This is what I was talking about with @bigbottom when I said I thought it was a small minority of people who were best friends where one was a Trump supporter and the other a Biden supporter.

He seemed surprised by that and I was surprised he was surprised. Mostly because of folks that share your opinion. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Understood. My guess is there are lots of people like you.

This is what I was talking about with @bigbottom when I said I thought it was a small minority of people who were best friends where one was a Trump supporter and the other a Biden supporter.

He seemed surprised by that and I was surprised he was surprised. Mostly because of folks that share your opinion. 
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If it's anything like my family dynamic, those people don't talk politics with each other.  I love my sister to death, but we've had to agree not to speak about Trump any longer.  As I've mentioned before, we're in a culture war and both sides feel pretty passionately about what makes this country great.  Unfortunately there isn't much overlap of those opinions.  There's a big secular vs religious component to the war which makes it especially difficult to reach common ground.  

 
Captain Cranks said:
If it's anything like my family dynamic, those people don't talk politics with each other.  I love my sister to death, but we've had to agree not to speak about Trump any longer.  As I've mentioned before, we're in a culture war and both sides feel pretty passionately about what makes this country great.  Unfortunately there isn't much overlap of those opinions.  There's a big secular vs religious component to the war which makes it especially difficult to reach common ground.  
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From my POV with my family and friends, it is more of a rivalry. It's intense but Yankees-Red Sox like. Everyone's opinion on policy is pretty close but "I hate that guy in that jersey".

 
Captain Cranks said:
If it's anything like my family dynamic, those people don't talk politics with each other.  I love my sister to death, but we've had to agree not to speak about Trump any longer.  As I've mentioned before, we're in a culture war and both sides feel pretty passionately about what makes this country great.  Unfortunately there isn't much overlap of those opinions.  There's a big secular vs religious component to the war which makes it especially difficult to reach common ground.  
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I don't think that's it. If someone is your best friend, at least some measure of political talk comes into play at some level for most people.

And if one person is a Trump voter and the other person thinks "I want no part of whatever America Trump and his crew are attempting to construct." those people likely aren't going to be best friends.

We've grown to be so intolerant and we show such little empathy to those who think differently. It's not surprising this is where we are. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
We've grown to be so intolerant and we show such little empathy to those who think differently. It's not surprising this is where we are. 
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What kind of empathy can you have for someone that doesn't want to wear a mask because it infringes on their rights, or doesn't believe in global warming because they took two minutes to find the record temp in X location was in the 1930s so that refutes all the other scientific research, or thinks it's just fine that Trump is openly looking to undermine our election?  

That's not rhetorical. I'm genuinely interested in how I should show empathy to that mindset? 

 
Not only is this republican voting Biden. I am voting against any republican in my state that supports Trump. In fact I drove by my county sheriffs house today and he has a Trump yard sign. Good guy, I work with his wife... but he just lost my vote 

 
Captain Cranks said:
What kind of empathy can you have for someone that doesn't want to wear a mask because it infringes on their rights, or doesn't believe in global warming because they took two minutes to find the record temp in X location was in the 1930s so that refutes all the other scientific research, or thinks it's just fine that Trump is openly looking to undermine our election?  

That's not rhetorical. I'm genuinely interested in how I should show empathy to that mindset? 
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It’s not easy. There are many times I think less of someone because of who they are, what they think, or what they’ve done. I Initially have a hard time empathizing In those situations mostly because I don’t try. I’m focused on how I’m right and they are wrong.  Then I start thinking about who I am, things that I think, and things I’ve done. I realize that I’m wrong a lot. There are things I can identify where I know I was wrong and I think about the fact that I’m likely wrong about several of my beliefs and positions. That usually helps me to be a little less negative towards others who I was previously judging. 

 
Same poll 4 years later, same results here. Only difference is the Democrats nominated a much worse candidate and half their party is calling for/ok with the country burning down. 

 
Widbil83 said:
Same poll 4 years later, same results here. Only difference is the Democrats nominated a much worse candidate and half their party is calling for/ok with the country burning down. 
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Why post something like this that is just so completely not true?  Do you have anything close to credible that would back this up?

 
dgreen said:
It’s not easy. There are many times I think less of someone because of who they are, what they think, or what they’ve done. I Initially have a hard time empathizing In those situations mostly because I don’t try. I’m focused on how I’m right and they are wrong.  Then I start thinking about who I am, things that I think, and things I’ve done. I realize that I’m wrong a lot. There are things I can identify where I know I was wrong and I think about the fact that I’m likely wrong about several of my beliefs and positions. That usually helps me to be a little less negative towards others who I was previously judging. 
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I understand what you're saying and agree with it in the right context, but some things just shouldn't be tolerated for tolerance sake.  For example, on one end of the spectrum is someone accidentally bumps into me on the sidewalk and on the other someone who murders my children in cold blood.  I can be tolerant and empathetic of the person who bumped into me.  I won't be tolerant and empathetic of someone who killed my children.  I can be tolerant of someone who thinks differently about the tax code than I do.  I'm not tolerant of someone who puts others' health at risk by not wearing a mask because they want their "freedom".  I'm not tolerant of someone who is willfully ignorant of the science that our planet is becoming increasingly uninhabitable.  I'm not tolerant of someone who turns a blind eye to a president who continually seeks to undermine the faith and trust we have in our democratic institutions.  As I see it, Trump is burning down the house and a lot of people in this country are either ok with it or worse, pouring gasoline on the fire.  I'm proud to say I'm not tolerant of that behavior.  

 
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Captain Cranks said:
I understand what you're saying and agree with it in the right context, but some things just shouldn't be tolerated for tolerance sake.  For example, on one end of the spectrum is someone accidentally bumps into me on the sidewalk and on the other someone who murders my children in cold blood.  I can be tolerant and empathetic of the person who bumped into me.  I won't be tolerant and empathetic of someone who killed my children.  I can be tolerant of someone who thinks differently about the tax code than I do.  I'm not tolerant of someone who puts others' health at risk by not wearing a mask because they want their "freedom".  I'm not tolerant of someone who is willfully ignorant of the science that our planet is becoming increasingly uninhabitable.  I'm not tolerant of someone who turns a blind eye to a president who continually seeks to undermine the faith and trust we have in our democratic institutions.  As I see it, Trump is burning down the house and 40% of the country is either ok with it or pouring gasoline on the fire.  I'm proud to say I'm not tolerant of that behavior.  
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If you held a position or did something that fits into the category of things that you think should absolutely not be tolerated, how would you want others to treat you?

 
dgreen said:
If you held a position or did something that fits into the category of things that you think should absolutely not be tolerated, how would you want others to treat you?
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I'm not expecting them to be tolerant of me.  I'm fully aware that my view of what this country should be is at direct odds with their own vision.  We're going to battle it out at the ballot box (hopefully, unless Republicans successfully dismantles the process in their favor) and may the best man/woman win.  Those thinking there's some middle ground and coexistence of thoughts to be reached are living in the past.  The power balance in this country is coming to a head and, in my opinion, the reign of the white Christian that's dominated its history is gasping its last breaths.  I don't want my country to put whites above everyone else.  I don't want my country to dictate laws based on Christian beliefs.  I don't want my country to prefer conspiracy over science.  I don't want my country to put business profits above the healthcare of its citizens.  These aren't small, inconsequential things.  I'm fully aware that conservatives want very different things and view my wants differently.  It's fine if they're intolerant of my views.  It doesn't mean we can't get along.  As I said above, I just don't talk to them about it any longer.  There's no common ground to be had. 

Are you of the opinion that every political opinion should be tolerated?  Should we really be tolerant of people who don't want to wear masks?

ETA - There's a difference between intolerance and disrespect.  I'm not tolerant of many of my sister's views.  I am respectful, however, in the form of keeping my mouth shut and letting her believe what she wants.

 
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Captain Cranks said:
I'm not expecting them to be tolerant of me.  I'm fully aware that my view of what this country should be is at direct odds with their own vision.  We're going to battle it out at the ballot box (hopefully, unless Republicans successfully dismantles the process in their favor) and may the best man/woman win.  Those thinking there's some middle ground and coexistence of thoughts to be reached are living in the past.  The power balance in this country is coming to a head and, in my opinion, the reign of the white Christian that's dominated its history is gasping its last breaths.  I don't want my country to put whites above everyone else.  I don't want my country to dictate laws based on Christian beliefs.  I don't want my country to prefer conspiracy over science.  I don't want my country to put business profits above the healthcare of its citizens.  These aren't small, inconsequential things.  I'm fully aware that conservatives want very different things and view my wants differently.  It's fine if they're intolerant of my views.  It doesn't mean we can't get along.  As I said above, I just don't talk to them about it any longer.  There's no common ground to be had. 

Are you of the opinion that every political opinion should be tolerated?  Should we really be tolerant of people who don't want to wear masks?

ETA - There's a difference between intolerance and disrespect.  I'm not tolerant of many of my sister's views.  I am respectful, however, in the form of keeping my mouth shut and letting her believe what she wants.
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Well, I think we've used the words "tolerant", "empathy", "respect", and "get along". It seems like there's some nuance there since you say you can be intolerant of views but still get along with that person or be respectful. I think all these words fit underneath the umbrella of loving each other, just to throw another word into the mix. I think I should definitely love (I'm talking about actions, not necessarily feelings) someone who doesn't want to wear a mask. I don't think loving each other means we completely ignore wrong-doing. In fact, I think loving each other means that we do sometimes address wrong-doing. And, I think love should drive how I address the wrong-doing in others just as I'd hope others would address my wrong-doing with love. 

Not sure if that clears anything up here. That's more of a high-level, general approach to things. I guess I'd have to see a situation of how someone is being intolerant of someone not wearing a mask to determine whether I am ok with that. Then again, I've heard it said: We judge others by their actions/results, but want others to judge us by our intentions. So, it's really hard for me to sit in the seat of judgement when I don't know everything about a situation. Drawing the line of when to call someone out is a tough one for me.

 
dgreen said:
Well, I think we've used the words "tolerant", "empathy", "respect", and "get along". It seems like there's some nuance there since you say you can be intolerant of views but still get along with that person or be respectful. I think all these words fit underneath the umbrella of loving each other, just to throw another word into the mix. I think I should definitely love (I'm talking about actions, not necessarily feelings) someone who doesn't want to wear a mask. I don't think loving each other means we completely ignore wrong-doing. In fact, I think loving each other means that we do sometimes address wrong-doing. And, I think love should drive how I address the wrong-doing in others just as I'd hope others would address my wrong-doing with love. 

Not sure if that clears anything up here. That's more of a high-level, general approach to things. I guess I'd have to see a situation of how someone is being intolerant of someone not wearing a mask to determine whether I am ok with that. Then again, I've heard it said: We judge others by their actions/results, but want others to judge us by our intentions. So, it's really hard for me to sit in the seat of judgement when I don't know everything about a situation. Drawing the line of when to call someone out is a tough one for me.
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I think we're on the same page.  My original reaction was to Joe's take that we've grown too intolerant and have such little empathy for those with differing views.  As a whole that's right, but I specified the views that I'm intolerant of and wondered how/why I could/should be showing empathy.  During the first two years of the Trump admin, I WAS disrespectful.  I'd call people dumb and ask them how can they think that way.  Since then I've come to understand we have two completely, somewhat incompatible worldviews, partly because of the polarization of our media and political parties, partly because of the way we view religion.  Because I wasn't finding any common ground while tension and animosity were beginning to build, I've chosen to just leave my political differences with family members be. 

I want to have a loving relationship with my brothers and sisters and because our worldviews are so different, the best way to foster that relationship is to put politics to the side.  I can't tolerate my sister's anti-mask, anti-vaccine views as I believe they're harmful to society, but I have to respect her and therefore I choose to keep my thoughts to myself.  Conversely, I don't like to see all the hate being spewed at each other in the streets and on social media.  It's not constructive and is making the schism even larger between us.  To Joe's point, I wish people would respect each other's views and rather than scream at each other, let their vote and peaceful protest do the talking. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I don't think that's it. If someone is your best friend, at least some measure of political talk comes into play at some level for most people.

And if one person is a Trump voter and the other person thinks "I want no part of whatever America Trump and his crew are attempting to construct." those people likely aren't going to be best friends.

We've grown to be so intolerant and we show such little empathy to those who think differently. It's not surprising this is where we are. 
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My best friend and I disagree on politics  - but most of our conversation comes down to family, sports, stocks, home improvement.  Politics plays a part but we can discuss it logically and in a civil manner.  

ETA: May make a difference that we both have earned degrees in history. 

 
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Nugget said:
My best friend and I disagree on politics  - but most of our conversation comes down to family, sports, stocks, home improvement.  Politics plays a part but we can discuss it logically and in a civil manner.  

ETA: May make a difference that we both have earned degrees in history. 
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Good for y'all. I'm that way with my friends too. I just think we're a minority. I'd hope we weren't. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Good for y'all. I'm that way with my friends too. I just think we're a minority. I'd hope we weren't. 
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I could be off and just taking things personally, but I sense a bit of arrogance and lack of nuance with your opinion on this.  If political discussions with my family could be tethered to logic, which is sounds like discussions with your friends do, then there wouldn't be a problem.  However, that's not my experience.  I'm contending with the likes of "masks take away my freedoms", "Democrats want us to be socialist like Venezuela", "Biden is a pedophile", and 'everything liberals do is bad, and everything Trump does is perfect'.  I wish we could have more logical discussions, but we're not even on the same planet in terms of what's real and what isn't.   

 
Captain Cranks said:
I could be off and just taking things personally, but I sense a bit of arrogance and lack of nuance with your opinion on this.  
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Yes, you're off. There's nothing to be arrogant about. And there's definitely a nuanced understanding. I just don't see a lot of situations where a Biden supporter and a Trump supporter are best friends. When I do see that, I think that's good. Which is why I said good for y'all. 

 
Captain Cranks said:
I could be off and just taking things personally, but I sense a bit of arrogance and lack of nuance with your opinion on this.  If political discussions with my family could be tethered to logic, which is sounds like discussions with your friends do, then there wouldn't be a problem.  However, that's not my experience.  I'm contending with the likes of "masks take away my freedoms", "Democrats want us to be socialist like Venezuela", "Biden is a pedophile", and 'everything liberals do is bad, and everything Trump does is perfect'.  I wish we could have more logical discussions, but we're not even on the same planet in terms of what's real and what isn't.   
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Yeah...I have two siblings that are far to the right, and very vocal. One I can have logical discussion with and while we rarely agree he backs his thoughts up and is generally respectful. His vote for Trump isn't because he loves Trump but because he has far more agreement with the platform in general. Another is far from respectful, dis-interested in "fake science", anti mask, antivax, and quick to use words like dummycrats and #######s.....she and I haven't spoken in a few years

 
renesauz said:
Yeah...I have two siblings that are far to the right, and very vocal. One I can have logical discussion with and while we rarely agree he backs his thoughts up and is generally respectful. His vote for Trump isn't because he loves Trump but because he has far more agreement with the platform in general. Another is far from respectful, dis-interested in "fake science", anti mask, antivax, and quick to use words like dummycrats and #######s.....she and I haven't spoken in a few years
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Is this due to politics or something different altogether.  

 
sho nuff said:
@KChusker

We can put this in the Biden thread if you wish...but just had a few things.

First...the health care for illegals...can you point me to where Biden is going to provide that for free?  His healthcare plan doesn't seem to address such a thing at all, neither does his immigration plan, neither does the DNC platform

https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-07-31-Democratic-Party-Platform-For-Distribution.pdf

The closest it gets is in talking about Dreamers.

https://joebiden.com/immigration/

Also in that immigration part...Im missing where he is just going to decriminalize illegal border crossings.  This sounds a lot like the oft repeated claim that Democrats are for open borders.  Once again, that is not what is being proposed whatsoever.  The other claim that is getting to a ridiculous point is this notion that its all Biden's "handlers"...where is this coming from?

I also think the Castro and Bolsheviks comparisons to Omar, AOC, and Sanders are a bit out there.  The slaver comment has been discussed...but once again we see the basket of deplorables com up and likely misinterpreted there (as dumb of a comment as it was from Hillary...she specifically stated who she thought such people were).
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Healthcare:

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1203047994737725441

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSmoNOZJ9Y

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Yh4OyQ2xw

And I didn't say free--I said government healthcare (and thus taxpayer subsidized)

As for illegal border crossings:

https://twitter.com/TrumpWarRoom/status/1146435462569111553

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCMwkLFrpYA

Even Jeh Johnson (Obama's former DHS Secretary) objects to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoBxxA_1zlk

The level of cognitive dissonance to pretend everything that goes against your "facts" is wrong is quite startling

It's literally:

Biden: I want to decriminalize illegal border crossings and give these people free healthcare

You: No no. He didn't actually say that. It's just a right wing talking point

Biden: No I actually want all that

You: No he really doesn't. Stop making up conspiracies

And seeing Biden's "handlers" comes from having a functional brain (unlike Biden) and seeing that Biden is in no mental state to lead a country and unlikely to make it four years:

Even over 50% of Democrats believe this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8613893/Poll-reveals-half-Democrats-dont-think-Joe-Biden-serve-four-years-elected-president.html

 And then on top of that he was really never the sharpest tool in the shed to begin with and is getting a fiercely ambitious and strictly establishment running mate who keeps referring to a "Harris Administration": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KGgQKp2kXY

And the comparisons with Dubya are not hard to see

But no: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-dems-push-biden-progressive 

I am sure: https://www.rollcall.com/2020/07/31/could-obamas-call-to-end-senate-filibuster-shift-the-tide/ (Obama support for ending the filibuster takes root across Dem leaders culminating in Biden/Schumer openness to it shortly after despite opposing the nuclear option for years: https://www.rollcall.com/2020/08/20/schumer-senate-democrats-would-ditch-filibuster-if-needed-to-push-bidens-agenda-through/)

It's all: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/blog/meet-press-blog-latest-news-analysis-data-driving-political-discussion-n988541/ncrd1180516#blogHeader 

in my: https://nypost.com/2020/07/23/sanders-biden-could-be-most-progressive-president-since-fdr/

head: https://nypost.com/2020/03/03/joe-biden-promises-to-put-beto-orourke-in-charge-of-gun-control/ (probably the most terrifying)

All before even mentioning the overwhelming advantage Biden has in PAC/special interest money: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/07/dark-money-network-joe-biden-superpacs/

(though Obama had this over Romney/McCain too--it wasn't this big then)

Bernie Sanders has given me far more than just his policies to draw those comparisons:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/will-sanders-long-ago-praise-socialist-regimes-hurt-democrats-november-n1139811

"On his Nicaragua visit in 1985 Sanders sat down with leader Daniel Ortega, whom he later called "a very impressive guy." At the time, human rights activists had documented serious abuses by Ortega's government." (It's one thing if he was President and negotiating and had to work with Ortega like FDR with Stalin, Obama with Castro during the thaw or Trump with Kim--this is his sentiment with no political gain)

"In 1989, Sanders visited communist Cuba and lauded the country's "free health care, free education, free housing," while dismissing the government's holding of political prisoners by saying Cuba was not a "perfect society," according to The Free Press of Burlington"

"Last year, pressed at a televised town hall by CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Sanders refused to call Venezuela's leader, Nicholás Maduro, a dictator. He has declined to recognize opposition leader Juan Guaidó as Venezuela's legitimate leader, as the U.S. and most of its allies have done. He denounced what he called a "coup" against Bolivia's leftist president, Evo Morales, despite findings by independent groups that Morales tried to steal an election."

""I was very excited and impressed by the Cuban revolution," he said in 1986, adding that he became sick to his stomach when he heard Democrat John F. Kennedy discussing ways to overturn that revolution in the 1960 presidential debate with Richard Nixon."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/bernie-sanders-pro-sandinista-past-problem.html

"The Times shows that Sanders went well beyond mere opposition to funding the war. He wrote to Sandinista leaders that American news media had not “reflected fairly the goals and accomplishments of your administration.” On a visit to the country, he attended a Sandinista celebration at which the crowd chanted, “Here, there, everywhere, the Yankee will die,” and complained that American reporters ignored “the truth” about Nicaragua’s government, telling a CBS reporter, “You are worms.'”

And then of course there's Bernie's idol Fidel: (again said while he was not President or Secretary of State negotiating--just his honest opinions)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/sanders-defends-castro-cuba-comments-cnntv/index.html

Praising his literacy program--this literacy program: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/yes-bernie-sanders-castro-s-literacy-program-was-bad-thing-ncna1145001

"I was forced to learn how to read and write by teachers who brainwashed me while teaching me how to write the “F” for “Fidel,” the “C” for “Castro” and so on. The "education" under a socialist regime is probably the most malicious of their programs, because it is — to the eyes of people like Sanders — an unalloyed, irreproachable social good, and yet it is one of the most essential tools of indoctrination and repression. There, according to Che Guevara’s teachings, as a small child I was taught to hate different ideas, looks and behaviors. 

The Cuban educational system is not a "literacy program" but a tool of indoctrination, designed for the creation of the “New Man” — one who is removed from what we would recognize as Western civilization’s values, who is intolerant and ready to kill in order to impose the revolutionary ideology. And it starts with those ABCs."

"Such a militarized state has guaranteed the Castro dynasty’s power over half a century — not, as Sanders asserted in his 1997 book, because "he educated their kids, gave their kids health care, totally transformed the society." The truth is that Cubans still live in a state of fear — even terror — and consequently are poorly organized in a weak civil society."

And as for the slaver comment--it's worse to me than the deplorables for its race baiting divisiveness and fear mongering--the same kind of rhetoric Trump uses but to a different demographic and in an even more obvious way--and confirms what I already suspected:

A bunch of these "moderates" and "Republicans" on this board aren't fooling anybody. If this poll were held in 2012, the results would be the same spread between Obama and Romney and the posters would be calling Romney a white supremacist, threat to democracy, authoritarian monster, slave owner, and saying it's treacherous/unpatriotic to support him---Biden confirmed it in those words

The same "courtesy" would be applied to anyone right of center (no matter how slight)---whether McCain, Huntsman, Romney, Paul Ryan, etc

And then after they die or criticize a Republican, these posters will talk about how they "always respected" that Republican because he was honorable--even as they called him an evil segregationist when they actually ran (see McCain)

That's the significance of the slaver comment and an explanation of how a political divide deepens

 
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About 15% voting Trump in the PSF?  This pole is way closer than I thought it would be. No way I thought he would garner more than 5% here.

 
KChusker said:
All these "moderates" and "Republicans" on this board aren't fooling anybody. If this poll were held in 2012, the results would be the same spread between Obama and Romney and the posters would be calling Romney a white supremacist, threat to democracy, authoritarian monster, slave owner, and saying it's treacherous/unpatriotic to support him---Biden confirmed it in those words

The same "courtesy" would be applied to anyone right of center (no matter how slight)---whether McCain, Huntsman, Romney, Paul Ryan, etc

And then after they die or criticize a Republican, these posters will talk about how they "always respected" that Republican because he was honorable--even as they called him an evil segregationist when they actually ran (see McCain)
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I'm pretty conservative and won't vote for Trump. I would have voted for Romney over Obama if I didn't live in CT and the election hadn't been decided already in 2008. I would have voted Clinton over Trump in 2016 but I lived in CA, so it didn't matter again.

By lumping everyone into a category based on presumptions about motive or self-identification to make an otherwise good point you lose the thrust of your argument, that is, many self-identified moderates and Republicans on this board really aren't and have never been.

But Trump is sui generis in this respect; indeed, his support seems dependent on one's education, backed up by polls. He had lost most literate and highly educated people a long time ago, and this board is replete with the literate and highly educated. So it should come as no surprise that the board responds this way to him.

 
And taking the Chicken Little aspect of Democratic complaints about prior Republicans (as you pointed out, always moderate ones) doesn't undercut the simple notion that they may be actually right this time. That so many people have come away from the administration basically begging people to vote for someone else strikes me as a huge red flag. Like planted robustly into terra firma.

 
rockaction said:
I'm pretty conservative and won't vote for Trump. I would have voted for Romney over Obama if I didn't live in CT and the election hadn't been decided already in 2008. I would have voted Clinton over Trump in 2016 but I lived in CA, so it didn't matter again.

By lumping everyone into a category based on presumptions about motive or self-identification to make an otherwise good point you lose the thrust of your argument, that is, many self-identified moderates and Republicans on this board really aren't and have never been.

But Trump is sui generis in this respect; indeed, his support seems dependent on one's education, backed up by polls. He had lost most literate and highly educated people a long time ago, and this board is replete with the literate and highly educated. So it should come as no surprise that the board responds this way to him.
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I mean I am not voting for Trump either in a swing state just down ballot and I agree that Trump’s coalition is decidedly less educated than Romney’s or McCain’s.

So yes “all” was probably strong. I am tallking more about the “moderates” and “Republicans” who criticize only Republicans and use left wing class warfare rhetoric to do so and praise only Democrats and progressive policies

 
By the way, I did indeed mean that the election was decided in 2008 for 2012. Obama was winning CT and getting the nomination as a sitting president without any doubt in my mind. He was an eight-year president from the jump in my estimation, and it proved true. Just figured I'd clarify because that can look confusing upon a re-reading of it.

 
KChusker said:
I am tallking more about the “moderates” and “Republicans” who criticize only Republicans and use left wing class warfare rhetoric to do so and praise only Democrats and progressive policies
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Yeah, I gathered the thrust of your argument and tend to agree (no, don't just tend, I do agree) with it, but when trying to prove a point about something the board will likely disagree with, it's probably best not to use "all" and the like. You wind up in a catch-all when you only need to catch about 80%. Plus, pointing out a person's problem with self-identification never goes over well. They likely can't see that they're no longer that which they once were or once thought of themselves as.  

 
rockaction said:
And taking the Chicken Little aspect of Democratic complaints about prior Republicans (as you pointed out, always moderate ones) doesn't undercut the simple notion that they may be actually right this time. That so many people have come away from the administration basically begging people to vote for someone else strikes me as a huge red flag. Like planted robustly into terra firma.
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Yeah the administrational instability is the biggest reason I can’t support Trump besides the general direction of the party under him.

Both through the fault of his own rhetoric and how it was spun (though more the former), stability and unity is not coming under him. Nothing he can say or do (not that he even makes an effort mostly) will change that

I just can’t fool myself into thinking Biden will

This is Gerald Ford vs Jimmy Carter to me except I’d never insult Gerry Ford by equating him to Trump

Just waiting for Reagan (though ideally a less socially conservative and more fiscally conservative one) to come along in four years I guess

 
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KChusker said:
Yeah the administrational instability is the biggest reason I can’t support Trump besides the general direction of the party under him.
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The party is really no longer as you once knew it. It is now the loose amalgamation of the Reform Party and Christian conservatives. You're likely not to see another Reagan arise unless there should be a dissolution of the Republican Party, out of which can arise many things.

Really, it's a fragmented world out there for people that would generally come down on the side of classical liberalism, and the results and that which comprises the American right isn't pretty now. Or intellectually stimulated and stimulating in the least. Really, this has been happening since the death of manufacturing and the embrace by Republicans of the social conservative brand of politicking.

 
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rockaction said:
The party is really no longer as you once knew it. It is now the loose amalgamation of the Reform Party and Christian conservatives. You're likely not to see another Reagan arise unless there should be a dissolution of the Republican Party, out of which can arise many things.

Really, it's a fragmented world out there for people that would generally come down on the side of classical liberalism, and the results and that which comprises the American right isn't pretty now. Or intellectually stimulated and stimulating in the least. Really, this has been happening since the death of manufacturing and the embrace by Republicans of the social conservative brand of politicking.
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I am not ready to give up yet. It was only 8 years ago that Mitt Romney was the nominee and I am at least somewhat confident that the GOP can see Texas/Georgia/Arizona turning blue and think this isn't working and isn't a sound strategy. 

Also I am a bit more bullish than you on the social aspect though. The Christian Right is going to be severely weakened post Trump imo. Embracing him means they lost any real authority to talk about "family values" and his support of gay marriage (and probably abortion--does anybody believe Trump gives a #### about abortion?) is a sign of their decline imo

If Don Jr is the nominee in 2024 I am out though--no doubt about it

I wanted Mitt Romney as the nominee for a long time and voted for him in the 2012 primary and would have in the 2008 one as well; but in hindsight, I wonder if it would have been better off for the return of moderate politics in the party for someone like Santorum of Bachmann to be the nominee and get thumped by Obama by way more than Romney did

Just to convince the activist base that the issue was not "he wasn't far right enough"

 
KChusker said:
I am not ready to give up yet. It was only 8 years ago that Mitt Romney was the nominee and I am at least somewhat confident that the GOP can see Texas/Georgia/Arizona turning blue and think this isn't working and isn't a sound strategy. 

Also I am a bit more bullish than you on the social aspect though. The Christian Right is going to be severely weakened post Trump imo. Embracing him means they lost any real authority to talk about "family values" and his support of gay marriage (and probably abortion--does anybody believe Trump gives a #### about abortion?) is a sign of their decline imo

If Don Jr is the nominee in 2024 I am out though--no doubt about it

I wanted Mitt Romney as the nominee for a long time and voted for him in the 2012 primary and would have in the 2008 one as well; but in hindsight, I wonder if it would have been better off for the return of moderate politics in the party for someone like Santorum of Bachmann to be the nominee and get thumped by Obama by way more than Romney did

Just to convince the activist base that the issue was not "he wasn't far right enough"
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I take your points, but would say that the move towards the embrace of social conservatism put it antagonistically against educated America, which is an America filled with doubt towards a once near-monolithic religion and newly-filled relativism regarding most aspects of life. And I don't mean doubt and relativism as embodied by legislative, judicial, and congressional ends. I mean that these things have been adopted as virtue by the educated classes. And as that foothold stiffens, so too does its potential for even more growth. We live in an age of doubt. I've never really seen doubt lessen personally but for the born-again, and even still that's not enough to win office with. 

So, sorry to say, but I don't think the states that turn blue are turning back. I've never seen it happen in my short about half-century on earth, and I don't expect the current trends to dissipate. Find a new synthesis, yes. But there will likely be no Romneys of yore unless a complete dissolution of the Republicans as the party of the American right happens. And it is happening. I just fear more Rommel than Romney. 

And I don't think anybody was deluding themselves that Romney wasn't far enough right. That's for the province of conservative talk shows and rags to discuss, not for accurate assessments of what is needed. 

 
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rockaction said:
The party is really no longer as you once knew it. It is now the loose amalgamation of the Reform Party and Christian conservatives. You're likely not to see another Reagan arise unless there should be a dissolution of the Republican Party, out of which can arise many things.
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Interestingly enough this all really starts when the moral majority believed that Reagan was just giving them "lip service" with the Supreme Court nomination of Sandra Day O'Conner.  While the Jerry Falwell types bit their tongues the wheels of the 15% solution started turning.

 
rockaction said:
I take your points, but would say that the move towards the embrace of social conservatism put it antagonistically against educated America, which is an America filled with doubt towards a once near-monolithic religion and newly-filled relativism regarding most aspects of life. And I don't mean doubt and relativism as embodied by legislative, judicial, and congressional ends. I mean that these things have been adopted as virtue by the educated classes. And as that foothold stiffens, so too does its potential for even more growth. We live in an age of doubt. I've never really seen doubt lessen personally but for the born-again, and even still that's not enough to win office with. 

So, sorry to say, but I don't think the states that turn blue are turning back. I've never seen it happen in my short about half-century on earth, and I don't expect the current trends to dissipate. Find a new synthesis, yes. But there will likely be no Romneys of yore unless a complete dissolution of the Republicans as the party of the American right happens. And it is happening. I just fear more Rommel than Romney. 

And I don't think anybody was deluding themselves that Romney wasn't far enough right. That's for the province of conservative talk shows and rags to discuss, not for accurate assessments of what is needed. 
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Romney's issue was that he was running against Obama--that's it. On economic conditions in 2012 alone Obama should not have won re-election and exit polls even showed Romney being more trusted on the issues of the economy and budget deficit. But...it was Obama

Garbage President but he inspired his base of minorities and young people like no one I have ever seen.

Romney was (and still is) a level headed moderate, but having people like Todd "legitimate rape" Akin and Richard "rape is what God intended" Mourdock as GOP Senate candidates make fools out of themselves talking about abortion and his own Mormonism spoiled pretty much any chance he had

At the time I wanted Chris Chrstie to run and save Romney for Hillary in 2016 if Christie lost. Hard to imagine now but Christie was a rising superstar at the time about to win 60% re-election in deep blue New Jersey. Listening to him in town halls would convince you there was a real common sense center in America

And frankly to beat an incumbent President you need either them to tank their chances (Trump, Ford with the Nixon pardon/Poland gaffe), an S tier political talent (Reagan) or an A tier one (Bill Clinton) with some help (Ross Perot). I thought Christie might have been that kind of talent. Romney was Al Gore--would have beaten Hillary but against Obama his only hope was Obama shooting himself in the foot (which he nearly did the first debate)

As for blue states, if you are right that is the death of conservatism in America and the acceleration to Venezuela. Part of why I imagine--after finishing my medical residency and specialty--I'd rather get dual citizenship elsewhere

I have no intention of being taxed 60-70% of my money after 12 years of education and hours and hours slaved studying for exam after exam because people like Bernie Sanders--millionaire career politicians who were too lazy and stupid to get a real job--think I make too much money with my 70-80 hour workweeks (depending on specialty)

But I still hold out some hope:

The real issue is: the base has to allow the party to moderate in exchange for long term survival. Take Virginia--I still believe the Romney/Bush Sr/Jack Kemp GOP could win there with better outreach to Asians and Hispanics in the DC suburbs

But almost every candidate put up by GOP primary voters has been totally unpalatable to northern Virginia and accelerated the flip (Tim Kaine's 2018 opponent was flying the Confederate flag at rallies)

Unless the GOP somehow flips turns the swing midwest into red states AND puts the northeast (where Trump did admittedly make some gains on Romney's performance--in non Massachusetts New England, NJ, Delaware, etc), it doesn't change anything) into play, there's nothing--and even then they'd probably need one of Illinois or New York electorally

 
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KChusker said:
But I still hold out some hope:

The real issue is: the base has to allow the party to moderate in exchange for long term survival. Take Virginia--I still believe the Romney/Bush Sr/Jack Kemp GOP could win there with better outreach to Asians and Hispanics in the DC suburbs

But almost every candidate put up by GOP primary voters has been totally unpalatable to northern Virginia and accelerated the flip (Tim Kaine's 2018 opponent was flying the Confederate flag at rallies)

Unless the GOP somehow flips turns the swing midwest into red states AND puts the northeast (where Trump did admittedly make some gains on Romney's performance--in non Massachusetts New England, NJ, Delaware, etc), it doesn't change anything) into play, there's nothing--and even then they'd probably need one of Illinois or New York electorally
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This is going to be a tall order in the short term since there are so many societal trends going against it.  First and foremost is media and social media that are working to polarize us to more extreme levels.  Moderate views are not in their best interest.  Then there's the culture wars that need to play out.  Whites vs. non-whites.  Secularism vs. religion.  Perceived socialism vs perceived totalitarianism.  I don't expect the Republican Party to reinvent themselves any time soon because our political landscape isn't fertile for it just yet.

 
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KChusker said:
At the time I wanted Chris Chrstie to run and save Romney for Hillary in 2016 if Christie lost. Hard to imagine now but Christie was a rising superstar at the time about to win 60% re-election in deep blue New Jersey. Listening to him in town halls would convince you there was a real common sense center in America
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I really thought Christie would have given Obama a run for his money in 2012... he had a lot of momentum

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Interestingly enough this all really starts when the moral majority believed that Reagan was just giving them "lip service" with the Supreme Court nomination of Sandra Day O'Conner.  While the Jerry Falwell types bit their tongues the wheels of the 15% solution started turning.
Click to expand...


rockaction said:
The party is really no longer as you once knew it. It is now the loose amalgamation of the Reform Party and Christian conservatives. You're likely not to see another Reagan arise unless there should be a dissolution of the Republican Party, out of which can arise many things.

Really, it's a fragmented world out there for people that would generally come down on the side of classical liberalism, and the results and that which comprises the American right isn't pretty now. Or intellectually stimulated and stimulating in the least. Really, this has been happening since the death of manufacturing and the embrace by Republicans of the social conservative brand of politicking.
Click to expand...
It was always lip service

How many people do you know who lean right or center but vote Dem solely because they love abortion?

How many do you know who are center or even slightly left on most things but vote single issue on abortion?

The RNC knows this and that touching Roe creates an emboldened Dem base and loses some of those single issue abortion voters

Of course with people like Josh Hawley and Tom Cotton rising and considered (frighteningly) considered 2024 candidates and SCOTUS justices the inmates seem to think they run the asylum

A Nikki Haley/Tim Scott/Ben Sasse/etc nomination can still preserve the party in a short run and--assuming the market crashes in the next year or two like I expect--even win the Presidency if someone as unlikeable (by the center, center-right, far left and more) as Kamala Harris is the Dem nominee (as the incumbent "vice" **wink wink** President she would probably start off as a favorite)--especially Haley or Scott imo would be very tough candidates for Democrats to beat:

Most voters dgaf that they tepidly backed Trump--they can look at policies/rhetoric/and the obvious: race/background and see the farthest thing from Trump possible

But long term the GOPs problem is that they have no establishment that the voters respect:

Dubya gave up on small government, started wars, ballooned the deficit, enacted the Patriots Act and left us 8 years of Obama and 2 of Dem undivided govt and a Senate supermajority

Bush Sr (he alone sums up my problem with the Republican base--our last truly intellectual President and his own party hated him for not being a stubborn ideologue) appointed a leftie to the SCOTUS and raised taxes

Romney/McCain/Dole lost and Paul Ryan tried to pass immigration reform

The reason Bernie couldn't beat the DNC establishment is because the Dem establishment has actually done stuff to satisfy the base (for now--as the base moves farther and father left they will have a similar problem) and thus had the credibility to warn against Bernie. They had a voice in Obama who could resonate across the base and get Klobuchar/Pete to drop out and Warren to stay in before Super Tuesday--knowing it would split the far left and coalesce the others around Biden

Maybe if Reagan were alive, his criticism could have derailed Trump (if he wasn't himself derailed from dementia) or he could have gotten Cruz/Kasich to drop out and coalesce around compromise Rubio vs Trump with his plurality not majority base (in which case I imagine the virus would have taken less of a toll and President Rubio would be cruising to re election)

But as it stands there's no one whose voice resonates because no one has delivered

I would hope that the establishment has learned enough from 2016 to be much more decisive in the 2024 primaries but who knows

And really just the Republican voters need to turn out in the primaries. Can't complain about crazy candidates if only the crazies show up to vote in the primaries.

I refuse to believe (polls or not) that most (>50%) Republican voters wouldn't prefer Trump's policies in a different package to this

 
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