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UNOFFICIAL COVID-19: NOT the mainstream Narrative (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Rhythmdoctor
- Start date
ericttspikes
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Got a flu shot in 2019 and have all vaccines required since I was a kid.
Now, am I an anti vaxxer?
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Now will you research if data is being collected properly in the USA on this?
Other countries are doing this work, we aren't.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Yep, the cdc killed the pdf i linked too from their site. I am sure its out there on net.
So crazy they removed it. Wonder why?
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Did you see many times in the thread if you never had covid, get the jab?
What's your deal?
ericttspikes
Footballguy
What’s my deal? You asked why aren’t the vaccines approved by the FDA I said they will be but it probably won’t matter to antivaxers if they were. Don’t know or care if you consider yourself one or not.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
I care a lot about people that had covid and if the vaccine helps more than the side effects that covid has and the potential side effects of the vaccine.
So what I want is data that is not public. They can state something like all new covid deaths come from unvaccinated people and all I want to know is how many of those unvaccinated people already had covid.
I know I am crazy, but truth and data matters to me.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
This is as simple as I can get it. My body got me through covid. Now you want me to take vaccine which identifies a spike protein that changes with every variant.
When I get hit with a variant my immune system will do its thing so or bad.
With vax people, you will send to the spike protein it was meant to vax, which is covid original.
When I get hit with a variant my immune system will do its thing so or bad.
With vax people, you will send to the spike protein it was meant to vax, which is covid original.
bostonfred
Footballguy
In the last couple days, I've talked to some b&m friends about this recently who were much less careful during the pandemic. One is a mother of two young kids, another a dad who mostly stayed home, and another who works in a card room.
All of them thought i was crazy for staying home as long as I did. When I first started talking to them I started to question myself.
All of them got covid. One had it really bad, hospital and ventilator, the mom had it for 15 days and her kids got it too, and another said it was about two days of flu and then a while longer without having taste or smell. Two of the three got the vaccine. The mom got it, but isn't sure if she'll have her kid get the vaccine because she felt crappy after getting the vaccine.
I don't question myself at all anymore. I had the luxury of being able to work from home and I don't get why anyone who had that luxury would have not only put themselves at risk but contributed to the spread. But it was interesting hearing more from people like cav who aren't anti vaccine for the most part, but were out there and got sick. I think the most sensible thing to do is to take the maximum precautions against this thing, especially as deadly new variants are still coming out, but I understand some of the hesitation
All of them thought i was crazy for staying home as long as I did. When I first started talking to them I started to question myself.
All of them got covid. One had it really bad, hospital and ventilator, the mom had it for 15 days and her kids got it too, and another said it was about two days of flu and then a while longer without having taste or smell. Two of the three got the vaccine. The mom got it, but isn't sure if she'll have her kid get the vaccine because she felt crappy after getting the vaccine.
I don't question myself at all anymore. I had the luxury of being able to work from home and I don't get why anyone who had that luxury would have not only put themselves at risk but contributed to the spread. But it was interesting hearing more from people like cav who aren't anti vaccine for the most part, but were out there and got sick. I think the most sensible thing to do is to take the maximum precautions against this thing, especially as deadly new variants are still coming out, but I understand some of the hesitation
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
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DallasDMac
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Probably immaterial difference in the short run. Except that in one case you actually get COVID and in the other you don’t. But in terms of go-forward immunity, over a 6-12 month time horizon it’s probably immaterial.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
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IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Even though you’ll never pay on any of these “bets”, I just want to point out this isn’t what you originally wagered.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
I pay all bets. If you put this to a vote. In the ffa, it will landslide I pay.
You might beat me on science, you will never beat me on integrity to pay a bet. You just have to sack up.
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beer 30
Footballguy
#truth Cav is a man of his word when it comes to bets and one of the most generous people on this board.
Now back to your regularly scheduled scientific - non-scientific discussion.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
The bolded is simply not true. The spike protein has not changed with any of the currently known variants, which is why the vaccines are still effective against all of them, Delta included. Now of course, that could change with new variants, but as of right now, it hasn't.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
for the hundredth time, GB, YES
Read that. Then read all of her links at the bottom, from which she formed that expert opinion.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
He has to understand he lost in order to pay...and clarify the parameters of his wagers.
How does he assess vaccine efficacy? Lack of demonstrable infection (ie. no detectable viral RNA)? No symptoms? Over what time period?
And less than 5% side effects is a ludicrous standard for vaccination, considering more than 5% of people infected with covid develop symptoms, some of them severe/life-threatening. For the love of god, a sore arm is a vaccine side effect.
And how does he ascertain the quality of the immune response? I’ve already shown vaccine recipients produce more neutralizing antibodies and have less breakthrough infections (positive NAATs) than those with natural immunity.
I’m not commenting on his integrity, rather, his ability to understand immunology. We’re not speaking the same language to even make a bet.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
To be fair, there have been many mutations in the spike protein. Most have been inconsequential, but a few have altered its structure in ways that increase its infectivity (ex. D614G). Fortunately, none have altered its immunogenicity in a way that evades the mRNA vaccines’ target, the spike’s receptor binding domain (RBD).
That’s not to say there haven’t been mutations in the RBD, just none of immunologic significance. That’s the beauty of the vaccines, as anything which radically changes the configuration of the RBD will likely impair its virulence, because the RBD must remain intact to enter our cells via ACE-2.
But to your point, the spike protein most certainly does NOT change with every variant.
The Commish
Footballguy
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![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
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Insoxicated
I'll vouch Cav is 100% a man of his word when it comes to paying his bets. Might have the best rep on the board in that regard.
I can't speak to being able to find a common ground on statistical sources to settle a bet of this type... but he pays his dues.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Well, since he seems to approve of the FFA as an arbiter of right and wrong, perhaps he can make a bet whose winner is decided by the FFA?I'll vouch Cav is 100% a man of his word when it comes to paying his bets. Might have the best rep on the board in that regard.
I can't speak to being able to find a common ground on statistical sources to settle a bet of this type... but he pays his dues.
ETA I just received an email solicitation for an online course through Yale, which may be helpful:
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IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Pfizer says it's developing a third COVID-19 vaccine dose to further boost immunity, fend off variants (WBAL-TV courtesy of Associated Press, 7/8/2021)
Aside from the third-dose development, I thought this excerpt was germane to this thread:
Aside from the third-dose development, I thought this excerpt was germane to this thread:
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Its cool but where does it stop? Furthermore maybe this is because I'm ignorant. Have we been through this before?
I let me know vaccines during a pandemic doesn't lead to variants, is the because of gain of function or just natural?
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Doug B
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Are you asking if the variants we are seeing with Covid are BECAUSE of vaccines or if they would still occur normally (with no vaccines)? If so, it's the latter. Viruses mutate all the time. It's one reason why the flu shot is not always effective. But there is hope that they might be able to piggyback on the mRNA technology to fix that in the future.
But there's nothing in the mRNA vaccine's makeup that can cause a mutation. That's just not how they work. All they do is help your body identify the spike proteins from the Covid coronavirus, so that it learns how to defend against it. There is no changing of RNA (or DNA) or creation of any new mutant virus cells.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Thank you. So if the covid original was running through the population unimpeded. It would just keep changing is what your point is? I don't disagree, just don't know.
To add. Then there would be no herd immunity for this and that was a lie, correct?
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The Commish
Footballguy
This isn't difficult....the more hosts a virus can invade, the more opportunity to mutate. If you get it early and reduce the opportunity to mutate, it goes away faster and heard immunity is achieved. The longer you let the thing spread, the more difficult it becomes to get it under wraps because there are more variants.
Viruses have no "knowledge" of vaccines nor do they "know" what it's doing in other bodies. They don't get on conference calls to discuss the next way to mutate so they will be more successful. We'd all be dead if that were the case.
Viruses have no "knowledge" of vaccines nor do they "know" what it's doing in other bodies. They don't get on conference calls to discuss the next way to mutate so they will be more successful. We'd all be dead if that were the case.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Commish covered it, but yes, correct.
Which is why Delta is ravaging unvaccinated populations right now. And creating even more mutations. The more vectors there are for transmission, the more likely there will be more mutations. Normally the mutations are harmless (the same or less severe than the one it sprang forth from), but every once in a while, nature "gets it right" and one comes along (ala Delta) that is worse in some way. These are the "variants of interest" (who hopefully don't get upgraded to "variants of concern" like Delta). We don't hear about most of the mutations because they die on the vine.
The main point being... Take away the infect-able vectors and the virus dies. The most effective way to do that is with vaccination. See also: Measles eradication. Herd immunity is not a lie, but it is a buzz word phrase, IMO. There is no magic light switch once you hit 60% or whatever the number may be. That's just the point there there are more uninfectable vectors than there are infectable ones, and the ability for the virus to spread is greatly impeded to the point that community spread cannot happen easily. Through either vaccination or antibodies from natural infection (which I still contend is not enough in most cases, and data is starting to confirm that, and I suspect will continue to do so as variants spread and people get reinfected).
But to your point, yes we could just "let it rip" and would reach herd immunity the old-fashioned way eventually.... with millions and millions of dead people as the "prize" and millions more having long-term health issues. Some even off-handedly suggested that strategy last year. It's sickening to think about, IMO.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
One place where you are wrong, is that the spike protein is not mutating (or not significantly mutating) with each variant. THAT is the reason why the vaccines are still working. The mRNA vaccines will be effective until the the spike protein itself has mutated in enough spots that the antibodies produced due to the mRNA vaccine can no longer "stick" to it at a high enough rate.
When you get COVID, your immune system produces antibodies, but not necessarily the same ones that would stick to the spike protein of your initial infection and those of the variants to date.
The two-dose regiment also tricks your body into thinking it was infected twice (via harmless protein spike) and therefore produces more anti-bodies than if you were infected one time with un-severe COVID.
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https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762Also this.
So many folks are just dead set on being on the wrong side of science/history on this one.
