The 2014 NFL Draft All-Overrated Team: Vanderbilt WR Jordan Matthews (2 Viewers)

[Ilov80s]

Interesting because Matthews seems to be the most underrated guy for some and the most overrated to others. Any chance anyone has him rated properly?

 

[werdnoynek]

Interesting because Matthews seems to be the most underrated guy for some and the most overrated to others. Any chance anyone has him rated properly?

I think at this point, with this class, there are many prospects that there really isn't a consensus on. I think after the draft we should have a bit more clarity but situation isn't going to change opinions all that much with some guys, Matthews included.

 

[Milkman]

I was thinking about this last night. The routes he's asked to run he runs well. I've seen him run more than three routes also. Still has anybody given any thought to the possibility that they limit the routes he runs because of his quarterback's limitations? I mean maybe his QB can't make all the throws?

 

[Leroy's Aces]

Yes, he does line up in the slot and does a of damage against zone. Who else in the NFL does that? Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston.

He doesn't break that sharp in his routes. Who else does that in the NFL? Marques Colston.

I'm not comparing him to Colston, just saying I don't see it as a significant weakness. He'll make up with it with his size. He's not the best jumpball guy and doesn't always go up and get it, but he's one of the better ones at competing for the catch in tight coverage.

Watch at 0:18: http://youtu.be/LfoPwGsNhco?t=18s

Fights Marcus Roberson, a top 5 CB in this draft, all the way until the ball gets there.

The comparison I'm going with is a faster, more athletic Eric Decker.

I don't see Matthews as good at competing for the ball at all. He's passive. I can however see the Decker compare, that's why I put Decker's picture on the article. From an FF standpoint, that means, much like Decker, his value is going to be based on his offense/QB more than his talent.

Pretty much sums it up for me. I see a successful WR in Matthews but to call him or his WR skills potentially elite is wishful thinking. I'm shocked he's even being considered over Watkins or even Evans for that matter. If big straightline guys with very little shiftiness and who will likely struggle with separation are your thing, Evans should be the apple of your eye over Matthews. Much more of a complete WR.

Sidenote: I apologize to milk and everyone else for posting that nonsense last night. Booze gives me fat fingers and as a result it was hard for me to type more than 1 word responses. I try to refrain but my self control usually goes first.

Regarding this point, I don't personally have him nor do I think many have him in that category of a top 15 overall NFL pick like Watkins and now Evans (according to draft pundits recent updates). I am more interested in the debate so I can more clearly evaluate him vs some of the other potential late first / second / third round NFL picks like Beckham, Cooks, Abbredaris, Benjamin, Robinson, Adams, Moncrief, Landry and so on.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Yes, he does line up in the slot and does a of damage against zone. Who else in the NFL does that? Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston.

He doesn't break that sharp in his routes. Who else does that in the NFL? Marques Colston.

I'm not comparing him to Colston, just saying I don't see it as a significant weakness. He'll make up with it with his size. He's not the best jumpball guy and doesn't always go up and get it, but he's one of the better ones at competing for the catch in tight coverage.

Watch at 0:18: http://youtu.be/LfoPwGsNhco?t=18s

Fights Marcus Roberson, a top 5 CB in this draft, all the way until the ball gets there.

The comparison I'm going with is a faster, more athletic Eric Decker.

I don't see Matthews as good at competing for the ball at all. He's passive. I can however see the Decker compare, that's why I put Decker's picture on the article. From an FF standpoint, that means, much like Decker, his value is going to be based on his offense/QB more than his talent.

I don't agree with this one bit. He dominated the SEC while playing for a garbage offense. I think he proved he isn't situation dependant already. He's going to be great no matter where he goes, but of course it wouldn't hurt to go to an up-tempo offense with a decent QB(unlike anything he's seen in college). As for the AJ Green comp, it's a good one. No one is saying his career will take the same path. He does have the same wiry/surdy frame at 6.3+ 212 and near the same speed and agility. Oh yeah, he arguably outproduced Green in the same exact conference without benefiting from playing with a Matt Stafford or Aaron Murray caliber QB.

Matthews hands are elite. Best hands I've seen in a while. He catches everything, even with defenders on his back. He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Yes, he does line up in the slot and does a of damage against zone. Who else in the NFL does that? Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston.

He doesn't break that sharp in his routes. Who else does that in the NFL? Marques Colston.

I'm not comparing him to Colston, just saying I don't see it as a significant weakness. He'll make up with it with his size. He's not the best jumpball guy and doesn't always go up and get it, but he's one of the better ones at competing for the catch in tight coverage.

Watch at 0:18: http://youtu.be/LfoPwGsNhco?t=18s

Fights Marcus Roberson, a top 5 CB in this draft, all the way until the ball gets there.

The comparison I'm going with is a faster, more athletic Eric Decker.

I don't see Matthews as good at competing for the ball at all. He's passive. I can however see the Decker compare, that's why I put Decker's picture on the article. From an FF standpoint, that means, much like Decker, his value is going to be based on his offense/QB more than his talent.

I don't agree with this one bit. He dominated the SEC while playing for a garbage offense. I think he proved he isn't situation dependant already. He's going to be great no matter where he goes, but of course it wouldn't hurt to go to an up-tempo offense with a decent QB(unlike anything he's seen in college).As for the AJ Green comp, it's a good one. No one is saying his career will take the same path. He does have the same wiry/surdy frame at 6.3+ 212 and near the same speed and agility. Oh yeah, he arguably outproduced Green in the same exact conference without benefiting from playing with a Matt Stafford or Aaron Murray caliber QB.

Matthews hands are elite. Best hands I've seen in a while. He catches everything, even with defenders on his back. He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

Matthews has good hands, but sometimes the high pass will clank off of his mitts with disastrous results, as in the Ole Miss game. His hands are good, but not "best in class" good.

As far as Matthews "dominating", a lot of his biggest plays were on well-blocked screens, one on one situations with safeties or defensive lapses. They were not plays that he created against top competition or good defensive play

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

He had back to back 90+ reception seasons bc he gets a lot of screen passes and short catches against zone coverage

 

[cstu]

As impressive as the number of passes he caught were (he's the SEC all-time leader in receptions and yards) his lack of TD's (7 on 112 catches) is concerning for a guy expected to be a #1 WR in the NFL.

 

[jurb26]

He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

He had back to back 90+ reception seasons bc he gets a lot of screen passes and short catches against zone coverage

Yup, lots of quick screens and quick 3 step drop patterns inflate the reception total. My large concern with Mathews is a lack of separation on deep plays. He makes tough catches but vs. man coverage they all seem to be tough catches because he never really gets open. He was a master of hand checking and pushing off IMO.

 

[werdnoynek]

He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

He had back to back 90+ reception seasons bc he gets a lot of screen passes and short catches against zone coverage

Yup, lots of quick screens and quick 3 step drop patterns inflate the reception total. My large concern with Mathews is a lack of separation on deep plays. He makes tough catches but vs. man coverage they all seem to be tough catches because he never really gets open. He was a master of hand checking and pushing off IMO.

Good observation. Went back through a couple of the draft breakdown vids and saw it, didn't notice it as much before.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

 

[jurb26]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

 

[cstu]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Are we really going to have this discussion?

 

[ShaHBucks]

Yes, he does line up in the slot and does a of damage against zone. Who else in the NFL does that? Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston.

He doesn't break that sharp in his routes. Who else does that in the NFL? Marques Colston.

I'm not comparing him to Colston, just saying I don't see it as a significant weakness. He'll make up with it with his size. He's not the best jumpball guy and doesn't always go up and get it, but he's one of the better ones at competing for the catch in tight coverage.

Watch at 0:18: http://youtu.be/LfoPwGsNhco?t=18s

Fights Marcus Roberson, a top 5 CB in this draft, all the way until the ball gets there.

The comparison I'm going with is a faster, more athletic Eric Decker.

I don't see Matthews as good at competing for the ball at all. He's passive. I can however see the Decker compare, that's why I put Decker's picture on the article. From an FF standpoint, that means, much like Decker, his value is going to be based on his offense/QB more than his talent.

I don't agree with this one bit. He dominated the SEC while playing for a garbage offense. I think he proved he isn't situation dependant already. He's going to be great no matter where he goes, but of course it wouldn't hurt to go to an up-tempo offense with a decent QB(unlike anything he's seen in college).As for the AJ Green comp, it's a good one. No one is saying his career will take the same path. He does have the same wiry/surdy frame at 6.3+ 212 and near the same speed and agility. Oh yeah, he arguably outproduced Green in the same exact conference without benefiting from playing with a Matt Stafford or Aaron Murray caliber QB.

Matthews hands are elite. Best hands I've seen in a while. He catches everything, even with defenders on his back. He didn't have back to back 90+ reception seasons in the SEC by luck or some gimmick offense.

Matthews has good hands, but sometimes the high pass will clank off of his mitts with disastrous results, as in the Ole Miss game. His hands are good, but not "best in class" good.

As far as Matthews "dominating", a lot of his biggest plays were on well-blocked screens, one on one situations with safeties or defensive lapses. They were not plays that he created against top competition or good defensive play

He does not drop a ton of passes. Wes Welker led the league in drops a few times. It's going to happen when a receiver accounts for that much of your team’s production in the pass game. That like when everyone was saying LeBron James can't score because he can't hit a game winner. Maybe we are watching different games, but I see him catching the ball in traffic and even one-handed catches a lot. Not too many receivers have the hands for that.

Jordan Matthews was targeted on 43.9% of Vandy's passes. He caught 71.3% of his 157 targets for 1477 yards. As a Jr. he caught 67.6% of his 139 targets. If he had an issue with using his 10.5' mitts it would show up in the numbers. I highly doubt he didn't "create plays against top competition or good defensive play" in 200+ receptions in the past two seasons while playing in the SEC. I haven't seen all 200+ receptions. The few drops I've seen were not routine plays. The negative traits you highlighted were not routine plays either.

He has Fitzgerald hands in AJ Green's body. All guys who lack elite speed, but are football savvy and possess elite hands. He will be great. Everyone will look back at this class and wonder how they missed the best WR in this class. It's Alshon Jeffery all over again. The only knock on him was his athleticism, but he tested fine at the combine. You’d think that was enough for people to start putting 1+1 together but there is still an anti- Matthews bias going on.

 

[jurb26]

Jordan Matthews was targeted on 43.9% of Vandy's passes. He caught 71.3% of his 157 targets for 1477 yards. As a Jr. he caught 67.6% of his 139 targets. If he had an issue with using his 10.5' mitts it would show up in the numbers. I highly doubt he didn't "create plays against top competition or good defensive play" in 200+ receptions in the past two seasons while playing in the SEC. I haven't seen all 200+ receptions. The few drops I've seen were not routine plays. The negative traits you highlighted were not routine plays either.

I've broken down a couple of Mathew's games and I don't think he has elite hands. Good, yes. Not elite. I'd also point to the South Carolina game as one in which he does in fact drop routine passes. He dropped 2 3 step quick slants. 1 was thrown behind him and a tough catch. A catch a guy with elite hands makes, though. The other was a perfectly thrown ball that sailed right between his hands. I don't think there is a bias going on, just genius concern. He isn't in the same realm as Fitz or Green.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Are we really going to have this discussion?

I'm here to learn. You are welcome to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I just want to know what the difference is.

 

[Milkman]

Yeah he might be better.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

 

[Milkman]

The difference is the echo chamber has been telling everyone that Watkins is the best wr prospect in this draft. That's why it's a red flag that Matthews caught some screen passes but no big deal for Watkins.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

Watkins displays consistent clear ability to create separation vs man coverage and run the full route tree effectively

 

[jurb26]

Mathews isn't near the prospect Watkins is for several reasons. First, I'd say Watkins has better hands despite some of the comments in here. Watkins is a vastly superior athlete with better speed, explosiveness and change of direction skills. Watkins plays about as smart as any WR in this draft. He has great special awareness and just seems like a heady player meaning his athleticism translates well to the field. He consistently beats man coverage when faced with it and Mathews rarely creates separation vs. it. I think both guys track the ball about the same. Perhaps Mathews tracks it better on over the shoulder passes. That's my brief take.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

The difference is the echo chamber has been telling everyone that Watkins is the best wr prospect in this draft. That's why it's a red flag that Matthews caught some screen passes but no big deal for Watkins.

There's a few reasons why it's not as big a deal for Watkins, and the rotoworld metrics posts go into them. For starters, Watkins leads all prospects in average YAC per reception, and he also averaged over 6 YAC on non-screen passes. To contrast, Matthews averaged only 4.7 YAC on non-screen passes, which is below average for this year's WR prospects. Secondly, Watkins ran a considerably more normal distribution of route types, whereas on non-screen passes Matthews ran posts/corners routes nearly 50% of the time. And finally, Matthews dropped the ball over 40% more often than Watkins did. So based on this information, we have reason to believe Watkins is more electric with the ball in his hands, can run better routes, and has better hands; and imo this stuff is overtly observable as well if you compare their college tapes/highlights.

 

[werdnoynek]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Great stuff here.

 

[werdnoynek]

The difference is the echo chamber has been telling everyone that Watkins is the best wr prospect in this draft. That's why it's a red flag that Matthews caught some screen passes but no big deal for Watkins.

Actually it has nothing to do with it. Watkins has shown that he can compete at the next level with route running and elite quickness in traffic. Matthews leave much to be desired in those areas at this point. He could prove otherwise but you're fooling yourself if you think Matthews is more NFL ready than Watkins.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Thanks everyone for your perspectives.

 

[ShaHBucks]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Evans played with a great college QB who is being discussed as a #1 overall talent in the draft. And I actually like Evans and Watkins, but Matthews belongs in the discussion with them and he is not because he doesn't "look exciting." His results were. His catch rate accounts for drops.

I haven't studied Cooks yet. Just looking at his size and style of offense, I doubt I'd rank him above Matthews.

 

[jurb26]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Oddly enough, the more and more I watched Watkins and looked at his games. The less and less impressed I was with Boyd. I used to be high on him. Now I don't think he should go in the first 3 rounds. His horribly inaccurate. Earlier I referenced a quick slant play that was thrown behind Mathews and he dropped it in the South Carolina game. Well, nearly the same exact play occurred for Watkins vs. FSU and he made the catch for a TD.

 

[ShaHBucks]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Oddly enough, the more and more I watched Watkins and looked at his games. The less and less impressed I was with Boyd. I used to be high on him. Now I don't think he should go in the first 3 rounds. His horribly inaccurate. Earlier I referenced a quick slant play that was thrown behind Mathews and he dropped it in the South Carolina game. Well, nearly the same exact play occurred for Watkins vs. FSU and he made the catch for a TD.

% of Teams targets:

43.9% = Matthews

27.6% = Watkins

% of Team passing TDs:

46.7% = Matthews

30.7% = Watkins

% of teams passing yards:

49.9% =Matthews

33.8% = Watkins

I don't think one play defines either guys body of work. Like Boyd or not, he was still throwing for far more completions, attempts, yards and TDs than anything Vandy rolled out. And Matthews has size that Watkins does not. He's the guy that should be considered a top-10 player in the draft.

 

[werdnoynek]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Oddly enough, the more and more I watched Watkins and looked at his games. The less and less impressed I was with Boyd. I used to be high on him. Now I don't think he should go in the first 3 rounds. His horribly inaccurate. Earlier I referenced a quick slant play that was thrown behind Mathews and he dropped it in the South Carolina game. Well, nearly the same exact play occurred for Watkins vs. FSU and he made the catch for a TD.

% of Teams targets:43.9% = Matthews

27.6% = Watkins

% of Team passing TDs:

46.7% = Matthews

30.7% = Watkins

% of teams passing yards:

49.9% =Matthews

33.8% = Watkins

I don't think one play defines either guys body of work. Like Boyd or not, he was still throwing for far more completions, attempts, yards and TDs than anything Vandy rolled out. And Matthews has size that Watkins does not. He's the guy that should be considered a top-10 player in the draft.

And then you watch them both actually play the game.

 

[ShaHBucks]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Oddly enough, the more and more I watched Watkins and looked at his games. The less and less impressed I was with Boyd. I used to be high on him. Now I don't think he should go in the first 3 rounds. His horribly inaccurate. Earlier I referenced a quick slant play that was thrown behind Mathews and he dropped it in the South Carolina game. Well, nearly the same exact play occurred for Watkins vs. FSU and he made the catch for a TD.

% of Teams targets:43.9% = Matthews

27.6% = Watkins

% of Team passing TDs:

46.7% = Matthews

30.7% = Watkins

% of teams passing yards:

49.9% =Matthews

33.8% = Watkins

I don't think one play defines either guys body of work. Like Boyd or not, he was still throwing for far more completions, attempts, yards and TDs than anything Vandy rolled out. And Matthews has size that Watkins does not. He's the guy that should be considered a top-10 player in the draft.

And then you watch them both actually play the game.

You're debating with math, not me. I'm just pointing to facts that say what Matthews did on a poor SEC team was phenomenal. I can find guys that watch tape and agree (Including myself) just as much as I can that don't. Who's right or wrong? It's all subjective. What he produced on the field is not.

 

[werdnoynek]

No one said Matthews drops a tonne of passes, but he definitely drops enough that he's not in contention to have the best hands in this draft class, and he arguably has some of the worst hands among top WR prospects in this draft if you consider his drops. According to the WR metrics posted at rotoworld, Matthews dropped 7.7% of his targets, which means he dropped the ball over 40% more often than guys like Watkins, Evans, and Cooks (some of the guys who actually have the best hands in the draft). Of the 9 guys rotoworld charted, the only players who dropped the ball more often than Matthews are Kelvin Benjamin and Marquise Lee. And one thing that makes Matthews high drop rate even worse is that 63% of his targets came within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Watkins played in one of the better uptempo offenses in the country, with a respectable QB.

Oddly enough, the more and more I watched Watkins and looked at his games. The less and less impressed I was with Boyd. I used to be high on him. Now I don't think he should go in the first 3 rounds. His horribly inaccurate. Earlier I referenced a quick slant play that was thrown behind Mathews and he dropped it in the South Carolina game. Well, nearly the same exact play occurred for Watkins vs. FSU and he made the catch for a TD.

% of Teams targets:43.9% = Matthews

27.6% = Watkins

% of Team passing TDs:

46.7% = Matthews

30.7% = Watkins

% of teams passing yards:

49.9% =Matthews

33.8% = Watkins

I don't think one play defines either guys body of work. Like Boyd or not, he was still throwing for far more completions, attempts, yards and TDs than anything Vandy rolled out. And Matthews has size that Watkins does not. He's the guy that should be considered a top-10 player in the draft.

And then you watch them both actually play the game.

You're debating with math, not me. I'm just pointing to facts that say what Matthews did on a poor SEC team was phenomenal. I can find guys that watch tape and agree (Including myself) just as much as I can that don't. Who's right or wrong? It's all subjective. What he produced on the field is not.

I'm not debating the numbers, what I was trying to say (though maybe not in the best way) is that the number don't (and they rarely do when it comes to college prospects) tell the whole story. If you're truely a numbers guy, you should be well aware of this. I'm not denying Matthews looks really good on paper, however, for me and clearly many others, his play on the field doesn't back up those numbers. That's usually a good indicator that its too good to be true - especially true with Matthews IMO.

 

[Milkman]

Yeah when i watch Matthews tape it seems to me he's deceptively smooth. This makes him almost look slow when, in fact, he's not. Couple this with the fact that he was not only Vandys #1 wr and only weapon but got less help from his QB than some of the other top WR'S. That makes the numbers he put up at vandy even more incredible.

He has a large enough sample of college stats, that i can say with a fair amount of confidence, can not be explained away with luck. He's had some huge games against some good SEC teams packed with NFL talent over and over again.

I would also argue that if he ran only three routes in college football that would suggest he's even more dominant than first thought considering the numbers he put up. He lined up, the defense knew his crappy QB was going to throw the ball to him, they knew what route he was going to run, and he still dominated.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

Speaking of hands. Which of these rookie WR earns "best in class" hands?

 

[Time Kibitzer]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

 

[Milkman]

Speaking of hands. Which of these rookie WR earns "best in class" hands?

within the top 7 wr i would say the two that stand out to me is Cooks and Matthews. Cooks is the first WR under 6'0 that I've ever considered chasing in the draft. I normally let other teams draft them. Having said that this Draft has two wr i feel are being under valued (Robinson and Matthews) and Cooks is slightly over valued so I'm going to stay away.

 

[Milkman]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

There is never any guarantee that a player is going to successfully translate to the NFL but the SEC is by far the closest we have to an NFL minor league. Matthews broke the records he did against NFL level competition.Just another box to check for the slow/boring Jordan Matthews.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

There is never any guarantee that a player is going to successfully translate to the NFL but the SEC is by far the closest we have to an NFL minor league. Matthews broke the records he did against NFL level competition.Just another box to check for the slow/boring Jordan Matthews.

My point is its the type of success that a player has that matters, where it happens is more or less irrelevant. Does he do things that NFL WRs do to succeed? A variety of different skill sets can dominate in college, but in the NFL it's pretty clear cut when it comes to being a dominating WR1. Hands catching, running a variety of routes, catching contested passes, winning jump balls, etc. etc.That's why watching tape is very important. Dominating in college is great, but how they dominate and determining if that skill set will translate to the NFL is something you can't determine simply by looking at stats.

 

[ShaHBucks]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

There is never any guarantee that a player is going to successfully translate to the NFL but the SEC is by far the closest we have to an NFL minor league. Matthews broke the records he did against NFL level competition.Just another box to check for the slow/boring Jordan Matthews.

Mayock made me hate this phrase over the week. It still makes me sick.

 

[Milkman]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

There is never any guarantee that a player is going to successfully translate to the NFL but the SEC is by far the closest we have to an NFL minor league. Matthews broke the records he did against NFL level competition.Just another box to check for the slow/boring Jordan Matthews.

My point is its the type of success that a player has that matters, where it happens is more or less irrelevant. Does he do things that NFL WRs do to succeed? A variety of different skill sets can dominate in college, but in the NFL it's pretty clear cut when it comes to being a dominating WR1. Hands catching, running a variety of routes, catching contested passes, winning jump balls, etc. etc.That's why watching tape is very important. Dominating in college is great, but how they dominate and determining if that skill set will translate to the NFL is something you can't determine simply by looking at stats.

Ok so iyo how did Matthews do it?

 

[ShaHBucks]

This is like the part on Moneyball when Billy Beane keeps telling the scouts "he gets on base."

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

One key distinction that I think should be made is that the college game isn't a carbon copy of the NFL game, i.e. a player's skills that allowed them to dominate in college may not translate to the NFL game. That's one reason why I think watching tape is imperative and simply looking at stats doesn't tell the whole story. It's great if a player can dominate in college by primarily running the same play over and over, but there's probably good reason to believe that sort of domination by running the same route over and over won't be happening in the NFL.

There is never any guarantee that a player is going to successfully translate to the NFL but the SEC is by far the closest we have to an NFL minor league. Matthews broke the records he did against NFL level competition.Just another box to check for the slow/boring Jordan Matthews.

Mayock made me hate this phrase over the week. It still makes me sick.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is…

 

[Milkman]

I love this kid 6'2 285 pounds 34 1/4 arms ran a 4.84 40 yard dash.......

 

[Brewtown]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

Watkins displays consistent clear ability to create separation vs man coverage and run the full route tree effectively

This running of a full route tree seems like a pretty basic skill for a WR that can be taught/learned (especially with someone of Matthews athletic ability and bloodline). You think Jerry Rice's cousin won't be able to run decent routes : )

So, in your film study, you did not see the full route tree, and in your opinion he did not demonstrate this in college. Part of what we do in evaluating is predicting how talent translates to the NFL. Wouldn't any reasonable scout/man think that a very good athlete like Matthews would probably have no problem running the full route tree?

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

Watkins displays consistent clear ability to create separation vs man coverage and run the full route tree effectively

This running of a full route tree seems like a pretty basic skill for a WR that can be taught/learned (especially with someone of Matthews athletic ability and bloodline). You think Jerry Rice's cousin won't be able to run decent routes : )

So, in your film study, you did not see the full route tree, and in your opinion he did not demonstrate this in college. Part of what we do in evaluating is predicting how talent translates to the NFL. Wouldn't any reasonable scout/man think that a very good athlete like Matthews would probably have no problem running the full route tree?

no, because he's not sudden enough to shake man coverage most of the time when he runs routes in college, except for a few hitch and go routes. He doesnt display quick twitch in his open field running either. It's not just about running the route the way it is drawn on paper, it is about having the footwork and subtle movements/changes of speed to create separation. if he isnt creating separation vs man in the SEC, it aint gonna get any easier on Sundays.

 

[MAC_32]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

Watkins displays consistent clear ability to create separation vs man coverage and run the full route tree effectively

This running of a full route tree seems like a pretty basic skill for a WR that can be taught/learned (especially with someone of Matthews athletic ability and bloodline). You think Jerry Rice's cousin won't be able to run decent routes : )

So, in your film study, you did not see the full route tree, and in your opinion he did not demonstrate this in college. Part of what we do in evaluating is predicting how talent translates to the NFL. Wouldn't any reasonable scout/man think that a very good athlete like Matthews would probably have no problem running the full route tree?

the biggest mistake a scout can make is assume a player will continue to develop. Reality is, most don't.

 

[Brewtown]

Didn't Sammy Watkins take a ton of screens last year too?

Yes.

Thanks. If someone can tell me the difference is, that would be great.

Watkins displays consistent clear ability to create separation vs man coverage and run the full route tree effectively

This running of a full route tree seems like a pretty basic skill for a WR that can be taught/learned (especially with someone of Matthews athletic ability and bloodline). You think Jerry Rice's cousin won't be able to run decent routes : )

So, in your film study, you did not see the full route tree, and in your opinion he did not demonstrate this in college. Part of what we do in evaluating is predicting how talent translates to the NFL. Wouldn't any reasonable scout/man think that a very good athlete like Matthews would probably have no problem running the full route tree?

no, because he's not sudden enough to shake man coverage most of the time when he runs routes in college, except for a few hitch and go routes. He doesnt display quick twitch in his open field running either. It's not just about running the route the way it is drawn on paper, it is about having the footwork and subtle movements/changes of speed to create separation. if he isnt creating separation vs man in the SEC, it aint gonna get any easier on Sundays.

Ok, I get what you are saying and your point. There may be something to that (looking at his numbers - he had a lot of catches but did not excel in the red zone like you'd think a high target guy of his size would). Coverage gets tighter inside the 20's, and it looks like he did not perform as well as he did between the 20's.

But he is still 6'3", runs a 4.4, and did decent in other events at the combine. He also produced well in the SEC with the routes he ran.

Not that Sundays are going to get any easier, but isn't the SEC the closest competition level to the NFL available?

He also didn't have Johnny Unitas as his QB at Vandy either...

 

[werdnoynek]

I love this kid 6'2 285 pounds 34 1/4 arms ran a 4.84 40 yard dash.......

Big numbers, but big time player? To be determined...

 

[werdnoynek]

This is a classic case of numbers vs actual ability. I think it's pretty clear where Matthews stands in ability, yet some are choosing to ignore it and just stare at the numbers.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

I love this kid 6'2 285 pounds 34 1/4 arms ran a 4.84 40 yard dash.......

Big numbers, but big time player? To be determined...

He was doing his Mike Mayock impersonation.