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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better (2 Viewers)

timschochet said:
And I have a selfish request- and I know I can’t be the only one here feeling this: @Joe Bryant you’ve had to deal now with 3 years of the Trump presidency and all of our reactions to it- so at least give us one more year, through the election. I’m too invested in this ongoing discussion to lose all of these people now I’ve been talking to, admiring, arguing with. We’ve got to see it through and find out how it all ends and gauge each other’s reactions through all of the amazing events that are going to occur over the next 12 months. 

So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story. 
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This has been going here on since Bush and Obama as well.  Just more noticeable now that the forum is isolated.  As you can tell Joe is and has been  looking for a different direction and business model for awhile now. Things change.  I was upset when the Steak and Ale Restaurant by my home closed but I survived. We will too.

 
Da Guru said:
This has been going here on since Bush and Obama as well.  Just more noticeable now that the forum is isolated.  As you can tell Joe is and has been  looking for a different direction and business model for awhile now. Things change.  I was upset when the Steak and Ale Restaurant by my home closed but I survived. We will too.
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I read somewhere that Steak and Ale is making a comeback.  I think as more of a fine dining establishment instead of a cheaper steak house it once was, but I could be mistaken about that.  I’m glad they are coming back.  I used to go to the one in Lexington, Ky when I lived there.

 
JohnnyU said:
I read somewhere that Steak and Ale is making a comeback.  I think as more of a fine dining establishment instead of a cheaper steak house it once was, but I could be mistaken about that.  I’m glad they are coming back.  I used to go to the one in Lexington, Ky when I lived there.
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I thought it was more upscale than Texas Roadhouse and Outback.   In fact when I was in my 20s without $$$ it was like a Ruth Chris to me

Great salad bar.   The one by my house was jammed every night and had a great bar and happy hour menu as well.

 
Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here

 
Juxtatarot said:
In my honest opinion, I think the FFA will die without the PSF.  Some will find this opinion crazy, I’m sure, but there are a lot of smart, knowledgeable, quality posters that will tire of the FFA if politics are banned everywhere.
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I doubt it, but as JB said the forums actually lose money. The PSF has nothing to do with FBGs or contribute $$$ to the brand or business but may turn some actual paying customers off.  It is a business first and foremost.

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here
Click to expand...
Do you believe there are no trolls in the PSF?

 
Honestly, and I don't think this is limited to the PSF by any means, people just need to show some freaking humility, whether it's sincere or not. Even if the person with whom you are directly engaging is a damned fool, someone smarter than you respectfully disagrees with you. Pretend you are arguing with that person. And if you truly don't believe that person exists, your argument is boring the heck out of a lot of people, so just stop.

 
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This thread kills me. It's the same talking points as the last 3 or 4 like it and often this theme is repeated in the moderation thread.

The common sense answers are given on page 1 every single time. If people truly wanted to rise above the BS, they would.

Some have hardcore views that can't be swayed, yet others insist on trying. Some probably bicker because they are bored. Some just have to win an arguement. 

The be nice to each other works a bit, but at the end of the day we are all humans and all here for different reasons. We're coming to this board to vent, question, discuss, troll... whatever that person's outlet is. 

If there is something you cant stand around here, block it/them and move on. 

I know Joe took some heat for the last time he said we should all get out more, but he was right. Next time you get worked up from this place, take a pause and go out and enjoy life for an hour. This place ain't going anywhere...

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Honestly man I don't think he cares what you're invested in.  The best way to keep this place open is not to beg and plead but start behaving and follow his rules.  I mean he's only said it about 100 times.
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I think he cares very much. I may not persuade him but I can sure try. I do agree with the advice about following the rules and I hope everyone does. 

 
Da Guru said:
This has been going here on since Bush and Obama as well.  Just more noticeable now that the forum is isolated.  As you can tell Joe is and has been  looking for a different direction and business model for awhile now. Things change.  I was upset when the Steak and Ale Restaurant by my home closed but I survived. We will too.
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Of course we’ll survive. I don’t have to like it though. 

 
Koya said:
Many of us are understandably at a loss as to what we can do to ensure fair play (including honest discourse) here without muting dissent.
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Stop seeking fairness. Seek being excellent to others. Concern yourself more with whether you are being excellent to others than with whether others are being excellent. 

 
JohnnyU said:
This forum is far from open and welcoming to all sides.  Not when it’s 75-25, or 85-15, or 95-5.  The mob here bullies, or tries to. Only the strong stand up for their beliefs and aren’t fazed by the mob.  Wishfully both sides could learn a thing or two from the other side, but sadly the mission of this forum is to punish the minorty conservative voices.  You make it personal a lot of the time Tim.
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If you feel I’ve ever attacked you personally then I sincerely apologize for that. But I disagree with your main point: so long as one honestly wants to engage in discussion and debate I think they’re welcome. If somebody is rude, well that often leads to rude behavior in return unfortunately 

 
D_House said:
Make greater use of the ignore feature. I fact, get rid of the report feature in this forum - less work for the mods. Put the work on individual posters to make their experience here worthwhile through judicious use of ignore.
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If more people just used the ignore feature on posters they thought were worthless trolls, (one in particular) there would be a lot less problems.  At least stop quoting  the people you feel this way about.

 
I’m another one who doesn’t post much, but lurks a lot. I’ve learned a ton from some really smart people here. I’ve learned to skip past the junk, and look for the posters I know add value. I’ve seen the ugliness too, and I can’t blame Joe if he decides to shut it down. But I sure hope he doesn’t. 

 
Seriously, i got reported for abusive behavior. If i told you the reason you wouldn't believe me.

 
Henry Ford said:
I think it would be helpful for people to think of this place as a neighborhood bar and Joe and David as proprietors/bartenders. 
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Probably best to just leave Dave out of this. The analogy works until you realize the patrons ran one of the bartenders out of their own place. People can defend what happened all they want and for whatever reasons, but to me, this was the point of no return for the PF. Once the pitchforks and torches were out and even the bartenders (to stick with the analogy) weren't safe in their own place, how do you pretend to have control of the patrons?

 
timschochet said:
And I have a selfish request- and I know I can’t be the only one here feeling this: @Joe Bryant you’ve had to deal now with 3 years of the Trump presidency and all of our reactions to it- so at least give us one more year, through the election. I’m too invested in this ongoing discussion to lose all of these people now I’ve been talking to, admiring, arguing with. We’ve got to see it through and find out how it all ends and gauge each other’s reactions through all of the amazing events that are going to occur over the next 12 months. 

So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story. 
Click to expand...
IMO here lies the problem.  This is the politics forum, not the Trump forum.  Politics doesn't end once Trump is defeated or impeached.  Your story may be the Trump presidency, but the story for a a lot of us here is learning about Brexit, BIG, health insurance, trade policy, immigration, the progressive movement, tax policy, who is AOC, Bernie, Dore, etc.

I hope @Joe Bryant doesn't close the doors because I learn so much from the various threads in this forum.  It's a great place to pick some topics you what to learn about and read various opinions in one place.  I also find a lot of interesting reading material from the various links posted in this forum.

 
ShamrockPride said:
Probably best to just leave Dave out of this. The analogy works until you realize the patrons ran one of the bartenders out of their own place. People can defend what happened all they want and for whatever reasons, but to me, this was the point of no return for the PF. Once the pitchforks and torches were out and even the bartenders (to stick with the analogy) weren't safe in their own place, how do you pretend to have control of the patrons?
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I don’t think I will leave David out of this, but thank you for your perspective. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here
Click to expand...
Great post.  Just FYI, the mob dug in deeper on pages 2-4.  It is like the owner of the bar tells the patrons he has a lot of good friends who do not feel welcome at his bar and the patrons tell the owner your friends are a bunch of crazy drunk troll ignorant  liars.   

 
@Joe Bryant

The sad part for me is, I think this place rules.  Hard to reconcile that with the idea that it's too toxic for us to make it work.  Like others have said, it's a historical record that we've invested tons of time and thought into.  It's easy enough to ignore/scroll past the stuff that isn't worth the time.  When I get dunked on, I think about what I said and then I come back another day.  Our nonsense is decoupled from the FFA too so it doesn't mess up their good times anymore.   

I know it's just 'words on a screen' but this place gave me a real outlet for discussion that is hard to find IRL.  If it was just a business decision, I'd gladly help pay the money you'd otherwise be making, but I know it's a lot bigger than that.

When you end the PSF, I hope you'll consider locking it away to some place really embarrassing, like a basketball test forum sub-board where we can still see it in the future.  I'll still keep it in the very first bookmark.  Having a place to write and relate to other people has been a real gift over the years.  I think you and the mods did what you could.  Sad to see it end this way, but I respect your decision.  We tried!  

 
That one guy said:
Learn to give up and let your position stand as presented.  It’s okay to let people be wrong.  
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This and the ignore function that Maurile mentioned are the only answers.  I don't have problems in the PSF.  Why?  Because I realized a long time ago there is no common ground to be discussed with a Trump supporter.  They have a different reality than I do.  I'm not going to change their opinions and their lack of facts and reason aren't going to change mine.  

Some here just need to let it go and put people on ignore.  Let them think what they want and prove to them what the American people see as truth at the ballot box.

 
GROOT said:
Seriously, i got reported for abusive behavior. If i told you the reason you wouldn't believe me.
Click to expand...
I don't know why they wouldn't believe you.

The moderators usually copy and paste the issue when they suspend someone.

You responded to a poster with a link about how people were killed traveling 

https://nypost.com/2018/08/01/american-couple-killed-in-terror-attack-were-on-dream-trip-around-the-world/

and your comment was:

You should travel more often
Click to expand...

 
jon_mx said:
Great post.  Just FYI, the mob dug in deeper on pages 2-4.  It is like the owner of the bar tells the patrons he has a lot of good friends who do not feel welcome at his bar and the patrons tell the owner your friends are a bunch of crazy drunk troll ignorant  liars.   
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I'm never quite amazed anymore at the lack of self-awareness on the part of posters in the PSF. They're still thinking people like David Dodds cost them personally somehow.

It's quite revealing that the responses are just to dig in firmer. If anything, this place has served to teach me how self-righteousness works, warps, and distorts otherwise fine friendships. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Footballguys exists by selling subscriptions to our Premium NFL content.

The Shark Pool forum does help with the selling premium subscriptions. The Free For All helps some as I know a few people purchase a premium subscription as a way to support the forums. 

We've talked about trying to make some money from the forums with ads but I didn't have the stomach to put up with the howling I know ads would cause. 

For actual measurable attributable revenue, it's zero money in for the forums.

On the money out side, the forums are expensive to host.

Bottom line is they operate at a significant net loss. 

I have them as I love community. It's how I live my real life and it's how I try to live my online life. I've made a lot of meaningful connections here, mostly through the FFA. I know a great number of other people have as well.

The Shark Pool and the FFA aren't in question here.

What's in question is this Political forum. 

Aside from the revenue cost, by far the bigger cost is the mental energy. We try extremely hard and put a lot of effort into trying to make this a good place for civil discussion. Parts of our Footballguys business suffer because of the energy put into the forums. 

There is some good discussion in the PSF. I won't say it doesn't exist. But it's minimal. And the cost is extremely high. To put this much energy into something and most of the feedback be that I'm running this in a way to provide cover to intentional propaganda and try to subjugate the truth is too much.

Mostly, I'm sick of providing a place where the primary "product" seems to be snark, condescension, vitriol and bullying anyone who disagrees.

I"m not going to make a quick decision today but this feels like it's about done. I'm incredibly disappointed. But I'm not mad. This isn't personal. It's a business decision. 

And again, I'm just talking about the PSF. We'd still keep the Shark Pool and FFA going but have an inflexible position of not allowing anything remotely political. 
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Many years ago, there used to be a BB on a cigar website.  It was a pretty cool place.  Of course this was well before politics became the anger fueled thing it is today, but one day, they shut it down.  For almost all the reasons stated here.  It was a shame cause it was a good board too----

 
Mene said:
I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on ignore here since this forum opened, and I wound up removing him.  I just don't allow myself to get worked up over his posts, or what anyone posts for that matter.  If someone lies, trolls, insults, attacks, or in any way acts like a tool here, I just move on from their post.  If someone is making an obviously bad faith argument, I disregard it and move to the next post.  There is plenty of really intriguing conversation in this forum, it's just not that hard to disregard the bad actors in my opinion. 

As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of it could be remedied by just staying on topic, and not posting about the poster.  Stop trying to fix the people you think are idiots here.  Ignore them, disregard them, and stay on topic.  There is no value in trying to change the minds of those who you know do not see things the way you do.  Things are too polarized and people on the extremes aren't interested reconsidering their stances.  You aren't going to save the world by pointing out when someone is lying, or obfuscating, or twisting the facts on this forum.  Most people who participate here are plenty engaged and smart enough to know when this is happening, and we don't need board heroes to save us from it.  If those of you who truly want to discuss the topics just talked right past the obvious bad actors, they would run out of steam.  Stop engaging them, stop responding to them, stop feeling like everything needs a reply or a correction.

I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts of a number of the high value posters in this forum.  The aggregation of news that takes place here is second to none.  I do think it would be a loss if this forum goes away, and would greatly reduce the frequency in which I visit these forums... but I do understand.  It's a shame though, we are in some truly unique times politically, and it's been fantastic to come here and read the discussions that take place about these times.  I share KCitons view, I'm a level below many of the posters who's content I value when it comes to IQ.  That's why I really enjoy reading their content, they give me something to think about, an angle I didn't consider, a perspective I do not have.  It would be a loss if this went away, but I understand.  It's just a shame.  
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:goodposting:   and you should stop lurking and post more...well done :thumbup:  

 
Joe Bryant said:
Mostly, I'm sick of providing a place where the primary "product" seems to be snark, condescension, vitriol and bullying anyone who disagrees.
Click to expand...
Joe is spelling it out for us right here. Just treat people with a little respect. As if you are speaking to them face to face. Now, if this is how you treat people IRL, maybe this isn't the board for you. But ask yourself, every time you post, if what you are writing falls into any of these categories. The whole ""transcript" nonsense is a perfect example. Either put Noonan on ignore, scroll past or if you must reply, write "not a transcript" and move on to your actual discussion. No need to badger him over and over on it. Move on!

and FWIW, I don't blame Trump. Things have gotten a lot angrier around here since the yoga pants thread and Who's Hottest threads were banned.  ;)

 
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My thing is...why do we have to take everything so personally and get so angry.  There are varying viewpoints on lots of things, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts, even if I 100% disagree with them.   I firmly stand by the position that people are entitled to their feelings, even if they may seem absurd or downright ridiculous.  Hey, your life, your opinion...

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here
Click to expand...
I  went back to the first page and reread it.  One person is offering "ban the trolls" while multiple people are suggesting things like "keep it on topic", "keep it from being personal", "ignore people and stop trying to 'win' all the arguments", "use the ignore feature" etc.  :confused:  

 
Joe Bryant said:
I don't know why they wouldn't believe you.

The moderators usually copy and paste the issue when they suspend someone.

You responded to a poster with a link about how people were killed traveling 

https://nypost.com/2018/08/01/american-couple-killed-in-terror-attack-were-on-dream-trip-around-the-world/

and your comment was:
Click to expand...
The OP said traveling to other countries was safe, and that he/she had been to other "dangerous" places and nothing happened. I was merely pointing out (with link provided) naïvely traveling to these places can be dangerous. This is what this thread has become. Some people are in a blind fog that makes them unable/refuse to objectively respond. 

 
It would be very unfortunate if this board disappeared. I'm actually not quite sure what I would do. This place is an excellent aggregator of news along with commentary from intelligent and informed posters. I don't have a lot of time and this is definitely my go-to place to find out what is going on and, in a lot of cases, what it means. 

I also don't think it is really that toxic here. Even when the bickering on a particular topic gets ridiculous, it only lasts for a few pages before things are back to normal. This is one of the most civil places on the internet to discuss politics, at least from what I have found. And what is most unfortunate, is it really is only a couple of posters that cause the majority of the problems, some of whom may actually celebrate this forum closing as it may be their goal.  

If I had any advice it would be this: If you  legitimately think someone is a "troll" - ignore them or, for the love of all that is holy, do not engage. 

1. If they are trolling , by responding and getting obviously worked up, you are giving them exactly what they want. 

2. If they are not trolling, you are insulting them.

Also ban the word troll. 

That's all.

 
To me, the "do as I say and not as I do" shtick is the most toxic part of this board.  If you aren't willing to do what you're demanding/asking others to do, stop demanding/asking.  Followed closely behind that is intentionally misrepresenting what someone is saying to fit a narrative you've preconceived.

 
The Commish said:
I  went back to the first page and reread it.  One person is offering "ban the trolls" while multiple people are suggesting things like "keep it on topic", "keep it from being personal", "ignore people and stop trying to 'win' all the arguments", "use the ignore feature" etc.  :confused:  
Click to expand...
The need to win the argument outweighs the ignore feature.  A lot of people simply can't let that happen.  How many of you have put someone on ignore then take the ignore away just to read what someone responded to your post?   

It's hard for either side to understand how someone could believe what they do, each thinking their side is on the side of good and the other side is evil.  That is why it is always a bad idea to talk politics at Thanksgiving dinner with relatives and friends.   Politics brings out the worst in all of us IMO.  My best friend is a die hard Democrat and we don't see eye to eye on anything politically, but we are still best friends because we don't have political discussions.  We both know that it could ruin our friendship. 

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Is anyone here part of a community online or offline where Trump supporters and Trump opponents engage in substantive and respectful dialogue about politics?  I kinda think that it’s impossible.
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My second board is uniquely moderated in such a manner that personal insults and unsupported or inaccurate positions are relegated to one tiny corner of the board. The system is manpower intensive but it works.

The larger point I'd like to make, and others already have, is that I am heavily dependent on this forum for news and legal analysis. Sinn Fein is on top of every development and Saints is nothing short of amazing in his knowledge of what's going on. Our pack of lawyers here, too many to mention by name, offer an understanding of the constitutional and legal niceties that are critical to good decision making. I strongly recommend that you (not you personally, fats) put everyone who doesn't know stuff on ignore and concentrate on interacting with the people who do. 

But if political discussion here at FBGs is ended in the near future, I hope it's not too much to ask for a thread that lets us coordinate our efforts to meet up elsewhere and discuss the incredible events of the current political era.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
One of the thousands of problems on this board.  Let.  It.  Go.  You think it’s going to help to keep bringing up dodds all the time?  And god forbid he post in his own bar?   Some of you guys think you own the place. 
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I am saying quite the opposite here. But yes, that is one of the problems on this board.  People jump to ridiculous conclusions and then use those to jab at others. 

 
GROOT said:
The OP said traveling to other countries was safe, and that he/she had been to other "dangerous" places and nothing happened. I was merely pointing out (with link provided) naïvely traveling to these places can be dangerous. This is what this thread has become. Some people are in a blind fog that makes them unable/refuse to objectively respond. 
Click to expand...
Your last comment about travel was grossly inappropriate.

You had already made your point (which was more than valid).

Just my opinion.

 
You always seem to make these decisions way too complicated @Joe Bryant

1. There are only like 2-4 lowest common denominators here. Guys always involved in slap fights and actually arguments. Ban them from using this sub forum only. 

2. Appoint a few trusted people to help moderate the forum. 1 or 2 extra eyes who participate in a classy way. Make clear their decisions are final and to not whine about them. Every other serious forum on the internet has this. (guys like Tim are here more than all of your current moderators combined and he's not the type who will ban someone just for disagreeing with him. You can just tell. Find 2 or 3 guys like that and let them help clean up any personal attacks, hand out a few warnings if need be). You seem to be stressing about this forum when you don't need to so much. 

Most discussion and message board stuff will be on platforms like Discord in the coming years anyway. Maybe get a jump start on that. 

You're trying too hard to be "up in the middle" or "fair" if you will. I could clean this place up in 90 minutes (I'd ban myself too, I'm always a snarky jerk).

 
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JohnnyU said:
The need to win the argument outweighs the ignore feature.  A lot of people simply can't let that happen.  How many of you have put someone on ignore then take the ignore away just to read what someone responded to your post?   

It's hard for either side to understand how someone could believe what they do, each thinking their side is on the side of good and the other side is evil.  That is why it is always a bad idea to talk politics at Thanksgiving dinner with relatives and friends.   Politics brings out the worst in all of us IMO.  My best friend is a die hard Democrat and we don't see eye to eye on anything politically, but we are still best friends because we don't have political discussions.  We both know that it could ruin our friendship. 
Click to expand...
Sorry...have no idea why you responded to my post with this :shrug:  Has nothing to do with what I was responding to or what I wrote.

I don't put people on ignore so to answer your question "that question doesn't apply to me".

 
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Nipsey said:
These are crazy times and we're only human. Is the forum that bad? It's a bunch of over-caffeinated dudes letting off some steam, just like day one. Nobody is getting hurt here. @Joe Bryant the easy fix is ban the two obvious trolls and then you can have your Shangri-La.
Click to expand...
I agree.  In my opinion, the moderation team has historically been too lax in dealing with people who make the forums worse.  I forget the name of the poster, but there was one guy who spent what seemed like years ruining the FFA for everyone else before he was permed.  (The guy who started the "Get your money out of the market now" thread).  Getting rid of that guy was good for the FFA, but it took the mods way too long to do the right thing.  

There are a handful of people in this forum who are basically doing the same thing.  As soon as they show up in a thread, no matter what the topic, everything gets derailed into the same stupid slap-fights over who's being mean to who.  They've been told over and over again not to do that, and they just keep doing it.  At some point, it's time to ban them and let the rest of us live in peace.

I'm not talking about handing out long bans for routine infractions.  I'm talking about the small number of posters who I won't name but all of us know exactly who they are, who are either deliberately trying to ruin this forum or lack the maturity and self-control to interact with other people appropriately.  If it were up to me, those people would be gone, and any aliases would be nuked too.  (I have no problem with alias accounts normally, just in the special case of the self-appointed board cops and trolls).  

Edit: LHUCKS.  I can't believe I couldn't remember his username.

 
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