An (Un)Civil War: The Evangelical Divide (1 Viewer)

[Captain Cranks]

CBS Reports

The piece features Greg Locke but covers the growing divide within the Christian community.

Conservative political analyst: Even with white Evangelicals who are overwhelmingly Republican, there's a big divide in that community as well. We saw a lot of those divisions emerge at the Southern Baptist Convention in June where you had a big divide between the more classic fundamentalists and what you would call more classic evangelical.

Narrator: The Southern Baptist Convention is considered a bellweather for the direction of the Christian right. In the 2021 SBC presidential election, Ed Litton, who ran a campaign of unity and diversity, beat ultra-conservative candidate Mike Stone by just 4 percent, signifying a nearly even ideological divide in the convention.

Conservative political analyst: The level of disagreement and the level of debate, the level of vitriol, the level of cruelty is the most I've seen in my lifetime.

I'm curious if anyone is seeing or experiencing this division first hand.

 

[AAABatteries]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

 

[Captain Cranks]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

 

[AAABatteries]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

Totally agree.

 

[Jayrod]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

The video and Greg Locke are not representative of the Church. Guy is a snake oil salesman and everyone knows it but his band of followers.

Would be better for him if he had a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to keep misleading people.

 

[Captain Cranks]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

The video and Greg Locke are not representative of the Church. Guy is a snake oil salesman and everyone knows it but his band of followers.

Would be better for him if he had a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to keep misleading people.

In the video, Locke says, "they're driving here, flying here...because they like what I say because I'm saying what they feel. I'm scratching their itch type of deal."

Would you say demand for his type of sermon is growing or waning?

 

[AAABatteries]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

The video and Greg Locke are not representative of the Church. Guy is a snake oil salesman and everyone knows it but his band of followers.

Would be better for him if he had a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to keep misleading people.

As they point out, 77% of Evangelicals voted for Trump (or whatever the stat was - a lot). Most churches in my area have lots of cars in the parking lot that have Trump, LGB, MAGA, etc. stickers. I have no interest in going to church with those people.

 

[AAABatteries]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

The video and Greg Locke are not representative of the Church. Guy is a snake oil salesman and everyone knows it but his band of followers.

Would be better for him if he had a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to keep misleading people.

In the video, Locke says, "they're driving here, flying here...because they like what I say because I'm saying what they feel. I'm scratching their itch type of deal."

Would you say demand for his type of sermon is growing or waning?

I'd say waning overall but then the folks that do want to hear it flock to the few that do it. So it inflates their numbers.

Interesting timing of your thread as I was just thinking yesterday that Trump may be the greatest Televangelist of all-time. Not in the conventional sense of that term but rather, he's the epitome of what that term represents but he's selling himself/greed/white nationalism/MAGA instead of selling Jesus. It's not a coincidence that the crowds look similar to those at Televangelist events.

 

[dgreen]

 

[sho nuff]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

The video and Greg Locke are not representative of the Church. Guy is a snake oil salesman and everyone knows it but his band of followers.

Would be better for him if he had a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to keep misleading people.

In the video, Locke says, "they're driving here, flying here...because they like what I say because I'm saying what they feel. I'm scratching their itch type of deal."

Would you say demand for his type of sermon is growing or waning?

His compound continues to grow...that much I know.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I'm curious if anyone is seeing or experiencing this division first hand.

Yeah it sucks.

 

[FairWarning]

If there ever was a single issue voter, it’s the Big Religion people. Im not familiar with Locke, but the Joel Osteen-types are cult-like. It’s not like the churches I see around here.

 

[dgreen]

Postcards From Babylon

It says it’s supposed to be free on YouTube until 8/8 but it’s still there. Not sure how long it will be available, though.

 

[Sunshine6854]

Are christians still falling in number in this country? And I'm mainly referring to evangelicals who I believe believe the bible word for word including things like the earth is only a couple thousand years old, Noahs ark, etc.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Are christians still falling in number in this country? And I'm mainly referring to evangelicals who I believe believe the bible word for word including things like the earth is only a couple thousand years old, Noahs ark, etc.

Interestingly, fundamentalism (what you described) is increasing while overall Christian numbers are on the decline. Article

"...from other research we know that both the largest and fastest-growing churches in America tend to be conservative evangelical congregations. Outreach magazine publishes an annual list of the largest and fastest-growing churches in America, and that list consistently is populated by nondenominational churches and Baptist churches masquerading as nondenominational churches.

These largest and fastest-growing churches represent the core of the conservative evangelical base, and their pastors hold tremendous sway over large numbers of people. The Hartford Institute for Religion Research recently documented yet again that while the vast majority of churches in America are small, the vast majority of American churchgoers attend large churches: 10% of the nation’s churches attract 60% of regular churchgoers."

 

[The Commish]

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

There's a very good reason a BUNCH of churches that are part of the SBC market themselves as "nondenominational".

 

[Captain Cranks]

I'm curious if anyone is seeing or experiencing this division first hand.

Yeah it sucks.

Would you be willing to elaborate on what you're seeing?

 

[beer 30]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

Politics and social media don't have a place in church IMO and when they are preached from the pulpit, that's the time you should be questioning what is driving your pastor's views. I'm a Republican evangelical (or at least would be classified as one) and I wouldn't vote for Trump if you put a gun to my head. You are correct though, while I don't know the political affiliation of any in my congregation, I could probably tell you with a fair amount of certainty who are Republicans supporting Trump.

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

Interestingly enough I go to a church with two head pastors, one is a woman, one is a black man. It's a very interesting congregation. Our affiliation is with the Church of God which is labeled Pentecostal so it gets a little animated sometimes. Something like this.

 

[Captain Cranks]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

Politics and social media don't have a place in church IMO and when they are preached from the pulpit, that's the time you should be questioning what is driving your pastor's views. I'm a Republican evangelical (or at least would be classified as one) and I wouldn't vote for Trump if you put a gun to my head. You are correct though, while I don't know the political affiliation of any in my congregation, I could probably tell you with a fair amount of certainty who are Republicans supporting Trump.

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

Interestingly enough I go to a church with two head pastors, one is a woman, one is a black man. It's a very interesting congregation. Our affiliation is with the Church of God which is labeled Pentecostal so it gets a little animated sometimes. Something like this.

I like it. I want to go to one of these services

 

[beer 30]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

Politics and social media don't have a place in church IMO and when they are preached from the pulpit, that's the time you should be questioning what is driving your pastor's views. I'm a Republican evangelical (or at least would be classified as one) and I wouldn't vote for Trump if you put a gun to my head. You are correct though, while I don't know the political affiliation of any in my congregation, I could probably tell you with a fair amount of certainty who are Republicans supporting Trump.

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

Interestingly enough I go to a church with two head pastors, one is a woman, one is a black man. It's a very interesting congregation. Our affiliation is with the Church of God which is labeled Pentecostal so it gets a little animated sometimes. Something like this.

I like it. I want to go to one of these services

Well if you're ever in Ft. Mill, SC give me a call. I can hook you up.

 

[massraider]

That video and people like Greg Locke are a good microcosm of why I won’t vote GOP and won’t be attending church any time soon.

There are good Republicans and there are good churches. Unfortunately, I think politics and social media may be diluting them into irrelevance. I hope I'm wrong and Christians beat back the extremism.

Politics and social media don't have a place in church IMO and when they are preached from the pulpit, that's the time you should be questioning what is driving your pastor's views. I'm a Republican evangelical (or at least would be classified as one) and I wouldn't vote for Trump if you put a gun to my head. You are correct though, while I don't know the political affiliation of any in my congregation, I could probably tell you with a fair amount of certainty who are Republicans supporting Trump.

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

Interestingly enough I go to a church with two head pastors, one is a woman, one is a black man. It's a very interesting congregation. Our affiliation is with the Church of God which is labeled Pentecostal so it gets a little animated sometimes. Something like this.

I like it. I want to go to one of these services

I had a buddy here in NYC, and for his birthday he wanted to go to a noisy Baptist Harlem church. It was actually my job to pick the church. Anyway, we all went together, group of 26 year old white guys. All dressed up with ties and jackets. My buddy was out there dancing in the aisle, and every old black lady in a hat wanted to adopt him. We received multiple invites to brunch, and ended up going to gospel brunch with a family of 10.

Great time.

 

[dgreen]

Are christians still falling in number in this country? And I'm mainly referring to evangelicals who I believe believe the bible word for word including things like the earth is only a couple thousand years old, Noahs ark, etc.

I started facilitating a class discussion at my congregation. One of my goals is to challenge some beliefs. Not to get people to change, but just to encourage the discussion and provide a place for people to question things and to be comfortable expressing what they believe and don't believe. I've been surprised so far at how open most people have been. There's definitely some who express some uncomfortableness with some of the topics, but they keep coming back for more discussion and nobody is uncivil. It's been refreshing because I assumed most people would be in a certain mindset, but also a tad disappointing because the discussion is best when there is some controversy.

But, that's obviously a very biased observation to just my situation.

 

[beef]

Left my previous church of many years after the pastor got too political and started inserting politics in sermons. Tried a different church but walked out when they opened in prayer saying "Heavenly father, we thank you for our politicians..." (something like that). I got pre-warned about the pastor at my local Catholic church (not Catholic, wouldn't have gone there anyway) telling the congregation to not get vaxed and it was all just lies and deceit from the devil. I gave up...

Then I received a flyer from a small Methodist Church about their new paster (woman) and an invite to their Welcoming Service. I went and that was the best decision I've made in while. Pastor was awesome. Congregation mostly senior, like 75+ senior. it all felt right and comforting, and have been going back for about 2 months now.

 

[kwille]

About once a week, usually after a long work week I find myself walking randomly around my property and I usually end up sitting on a rock or a stump being grateful for health and family and contemplating how I might improve as a person. That's pretty good church. You really don't need stained glass and dogma.

 

[beer 30]

Oh, boy. I went down a rabbit hole of the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention and found this guy's analysis of the events. Apparently there's a large faction of the SB community who are still against women preachers. I think the more I dive into this, the more I'll realize that A Handmade's Tale isn't so far fetched.

Ironically https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...l-abuse-doj-investigation-report/10311282002/

 

[Captain Cranks]

Postcards From Babylon

It says it’s supposed to be free on YouTube until 8/8 but it’s still there. Not sure how long it will be available, though.

This was very eye opening. I'm glad/relieved to see that some in the community are taking this head-on.

 

[massraider]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Here's the son of the former president endorsing Locke:

Here is Eric Trump last night praising insane, reprehensible, Pastor Greg Locke: “Pastor, on behalf of everybody in NY, we need more people like you in this state. I like any pastor that’s pro-2nd Amend. Pastor Locke is my guy!”

 

[Captain Cranks]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Yep. I don't think this extremist Christian Nationalist movement is as inconsequential as some here think.

 

[sho nuff]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Here's the son of the former president endorsing Locke:

Here is Eric Trump last night praising insane, reprehensible, Pastor Greg Locke: “Pastor, on behalf of everybody in NY, we need more people like you in this state. I like any pastor that’s pro-2nd Amend. Pastor Locke is my guy!”

I believe he has also been down to Mar a Lago...yeah, he may be fringe as far as his type of message from a church...but he has friends in high places and is pushing that message pretty widely at this point,

 

[AAABatteries]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Yep. I don't think this extremist Christian Nationalist movement is as inconsequential as some here think.

My concern wouldn’t be extremism with these folks but rather politicians like Trump being normalized by these pastors and churches. If in 2015 a survey was sent out to these congregations saying would you vote for a guy that had been married multiple times, had multiple affairs, sex with a porn star, bragged about grabbing women by their genitals, walking in on teens getting dressed, sued numerous times, was a racist and scammed a kids cancer charity - they would of course say no way. Voting for Trump in the primaries means you are ok with all those things.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Yep. I don't think this extremist Christian Nationalist movement is as inconsequential as some here think.

My concern wouldn’t be extremism with these folks but rather politicians like Trump being normalized by these pastors and churches. If in 2015 a survey was sent out to these congregations saying would you vote for a guy that had been married multiple times, had multiple affairs, sex with a porn star, bragged about grabbing women by their genitals, walking in on teens getting dressed, sued numerous times, was a racist and scammed a kids cancer charity - they would of course say no way. Voting for Trump in the primaries means you are ok with all those things.

Values of the vessel aside, I think the larger concern is the unambiguous partnership the Christian Nationalist movement has with the Republican Party. They're steering the ship right towards a theocracy and there's a lot of 'the ends justify the means' rationalization going on with the voters.

As highlighted by the documentary @dgreen posted above, Christians are being lured by the desire for power and control and rather than give reverence to Christ, they're using Christ as a mascot to give reverence to the state.

 

[Bogart]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Here's the son of the former president endorsing Locke:

Here is Eric Trump last night praising insane, reprehensible, Pastor Greg Locke: “Pastor, on behalf of everybody in NY, we need more people like you in this state. I like any pastor that’s pro-2nd Amend. Pastor Locke is my guy!”

I believe he has also been down to Mar a Lago...yeah, he may be fringe as far as his type of message from a church...but he has friends in high places and is pushing that message pretty widely at this point,

Locke has been down to Mar-A-Lago at least once, for the premier of 2000 Mules. He claims he was also on a secret weekend meetings with the highest of MAGAs where they shared all the secrets, but of course he can't say what he knows. But it involves demons and pedos and Soros.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Tax the churches

 

[BladeRunner]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Here's the son of the former president endorsing Locke:

Here is Eric Trump last night praising insane, reprehensible, Pastor Greg Locke: “Pastor, on behalf of everybody in NY, we need more people like you in this state. I like any pastor that’s pro-2nd Amend. Pastor Locke is my guy!”

Now do Hunter Biden and Ukraine!!

Your fake outrage is noted.

 

[dgreen]

Tax the churches

How does this relate to the thread topic? By taxing them there will be less of them so there will be less influence on politics?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Locke has been down to Mar-A-Lago at least once, for the premier of 2000 Mules. He claims he was also on a secret weekend meetings with the highest of MAGAs where they shared all the secrets, but of course he can't say what he knows. But it involves demons and pedos and Soros.

Oh my!

 

[sho nuff]

Locke is fringe, until he's not.

Here's the son of the former president endorsing Locke:

Here is Eric Trump last night praising insane, reprehensible, Pastor Greg Locke: “Pastor, on behalf of everybody in NY, we need more people like you in this state. I like any pastor that’s pro-2nd Amend. Pastor Locke is my guy!”

Now do Hunter Biden and Ukraine!!

Your fake outrage is noted.

What does Biden and Ukraine have to do with this?
Can you go one topic without an unrelated “what about”?