Milkman
Footballguy
He's pretty close to Bell.
Bell-230 lbs
3 cone 6.75
Freeman- 234 pounds (i found 229 too so not sure on weight now)
3 cone 6.9
Freeman's 40 was slightly faster as well.
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RB Royce Freeman, LAR (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Snorkelson
- Start date
Bell-230 lbs
3 cone 6.75
Freeman- 234 pounds (i found 229 too so not sure on weight now)
3 cone 6.9
Freeman's 40 was slightly faster as well.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
So I charted these 4 games for Freeman.
Against Washington State he gets a total score of 33. 6 vision 1 acceleration 4 elusiveness 2 burst 4 power 6 footwork 3 balance 1 ball security 4 blocking 1 route running 1 hands
Notes from this game: Play at 1:16 mark shows burst and acceleration, also poor tackling. Twice Freeman stops his feet when he doesn't see a clear lane I gave him minus vision for those plays had some bad blocks where he needs to lock on not just give one push and expect that to be enough, but he has several other successful blocks and seems to understand his assignment just poor effort and technique at times more good than bad 5 good to 4 bad one of the poor blocks was on a jet sweep with him in the slot after the snap hard block to make.
This was the lowest score he gets from these 4 games.
Against Washington he gets a total score of 49. 10 vision 1 speed 1 acceleration 5 elusiveness 8 burst 3 power 12 footwork 2 pad level 2 balance 1 ball security 1 stiff arm 1 route running 2 hands.
Notes from this game: The blocking is failing on several of these runs and Freeman has no where to go as the defender gets off his block right as the center passes the defender off the guard off the double team.. Another time where the pulling linemen are being pushed into the backfield at where the run is designed to go There are two bad snaps and exchanges where Freeman just needs to fall on the ball.. which he does 2 defenders unblocked on a run to the left no one blocks the backside of the play Broken play where the right guard and tackle pull to the left and the handoff is to the right sending Freeman to where the linemen just pulled from I can imagine this is how the play was designed the linemen are running the play to the opposite side as the QB and RB if so block failed by 56 gets Freeman in trouble and he tries to push this lineman forward he seems frustrated he is too late to react with a cut back but not much he could do there he is a little late getting out on routes at times, on one route 4:12 of the clip he starts running to the shor side of the field with the QB needing to scramble to the far side of the field due to the pass rush, he fixes this after the mistake, but too late and did not provide a target for his QB so I awarded no route for this, also on the WR screen I did not credit him with a route because he didn't set up well to use his block and get downfield gets up to the right level and blocks but lets his guy get off it and knife inside to pressure the QB needs to maintain his blocks.
49 points is pretty good relative to the other charting I have done this year. For context in the 10 games for Nick Chubb that I have charted, his best 4 total scores were 47, two games with 48 and one game with 51. So this game was right there with the best of Chubb I have charted.
Against Standford he gets a total score of 56. 10 vision 3 speed 4 acceleration 5 elusiveness 5 burst 3 power 8 footwork 5 pad level 4 balance 2 ball security 2 blocking 1 stiff arm 3 route running 1 hands.
Notes from this game: The play at the 1 minute mark is really nice, he sees the crease and presses the other hole Does an ok job blocking on one assignment to the right at first getting the defense to react before hitting the hole to the left, he is able to break down the safety without losing too much forward momentum, tackler from the backside does get him around the goal line, but plenty of speed and burst on this run as well as good footwork and change of direction to make the safety miss as well The play at the 30 second mark is a longer run than this, where you can see Freeman having enough speed and acceleration to out run the defense great blocking but Freeman times it just right as well.
The total score of 56 is higher than any game I have charted for Nick Chubb. Sony Michel has one game where he had 70 out of the 5 games I charted, so its still not quite as good as what he did in his best game, but its still better than the other 4 games of Michel that I have charted. Guice has 4 games with a higher total score than this out of the 10 I charted for him.
Against ASU he gets a total score of 49. 7 vision 2 speed 2 acceleration 2 elusiveness 4 burst 4 power 3 footwork 5 pad level 4 balance 2 ball security 6 blocking 6 route running 2 hands.
Notes from this game: His block at the 30 second mark is eh but it worked I guess The run at the 48 second mark he shows his speed and acceleration by beating the defense and getting behind them once he turns upfield, also good quickness to get outside the edge defender before turning downfield Blocking effort poor again but it was enough and they scored the TD Actually does a good job blocking his man on the next play where Arizona is sending seven Stones an inside blitzer for an even better block than the last one At 2:38 he gets a great block by his lead back but he shows the speed to get to the edge on this play as well the block ends up getting in the way of the 2nd defender in pursuit but Freeman already had the angle on him before that Does a better job as a lead blocker than the first one At the 4 minute mark on 3rd and 7 Freeman runs a pretty good route and gets open on the out to the sideline he doesn't get turned back towards the ball right and doesn't get his hands right to catch the ball which goes through his fingers on the replay you can see the ball is a bit too far outside for what Freeman was expecting At 4:32 he struggles with a block but overall he has done a good job there in this game.
The traits that Freeman shows strongest in these 4 games are vision and footwork. His score is pretty well rounded showing some ability in all of the traits I am charting. I don't think this is enough games yet. I have seen other games of Freeman which I thought were more impressive for example his game against Wyoming that I watched recently.
To work with what I have so far the average total score for Freeman from these 4 games is 46.75 For Chubbs 10 games his average score is 33.2 For Michels 5 games charted his average score is 39.8 For Guice the average total score is 59.2
So he isn't as good as Guice by 13 points and he is better than Chubb by 13 points. Michels score is similarly good but still 6 points less.
As far as your comments about Freeman needing a runway to get going, I didn't really see that. His short area quickness is good. If anything he dances too much instead of just hitting what is there. Sometimes this works out for him and he is able to do something after being patient, but most of the time he just gets stopped for no gain where if he didn't wait so long for blocking to develop, he might have been able to get something, not much but something. In regards to the light box comment, I didn't track this the whole time I was watching these games and I am sure he faces a light box at times, there are a lot of plays where there are 7 or more defenders crowding the LOS. The game against Standford in particular, they were sending 7 to 9 on run blitzes on a lot of those plays and Freeman does get dumped in the backfield a few times because of this. ASU was blitzing a ton as well, that is why Freeman ends up being involved in about 8 or 9 blocks in that game (most of which he did well on).
Longtucky Lemmings
Footballguy
Thanks for this Bia - great stuff and I appreciate you sharing!
Freeman is really starting to grow on me. I like what looks like versatility and I found myself watching sometimes watching his footwork and having to remind myself how big a guy he is. I would not call his feet other-worldly but I do feel like he has foot skills and balance beyond what I'd typically expect from a back of his size.
He's becoming an early 2nd target for me in many of my leagues and his landing spot could drive him to late 1st round territory for me.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Disagree.
His 10 yard dash was 1.60. Compare that to similarly sized Bell, who ran 1.51. Bell then lost 20 lbs for his rookie year. Freeman even had a faster 40 than Bell, which shows he has some pretty good top end. But he's got build up speed, make no mistake.
Is it just me, or does Freeman look pretty stiff in the hips also?
Milkman
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
His change of direction ability could be better. He tries to make some guys miss but the body doesn't do what he wants it to.
Possible that is something that could improve if he lost some weight but he isn't as loose in the hips as guys like Jay Ajayi for example.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Agree- I took him 1.12 landing spot unknown and with Sutton, Moore, and Ridley off the board. Considered Gallup, who I snagged at 2.05. I see elite build with good enough speed and great vision/patience. He sets up blocks. He sets up would be tacklers. Good ball security. He could end up a workhorse but I expect he’ll gonsomewhere to be early down guy.
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
I’ve never watched him in game ... but maybe he just didn’t have to “show” the short area quickness? Depending on the system he was in .. if it was a zone one cut type of thing - against college defenders, he might’ve been told to just “go”
i have no idea ... I’m just interested holding the 8th rookie pick.
if his combine numbers say he has “elite” short area quickness” then that’s something to be excited about.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
There are plenty of examples of him demonstrating short area quickness in the 4 games linked by Borden above.
For starters watch the first play on the clip of the game against Washington State
You get two different views of this play, the backside view the more useful one for observing this. What I see him do is press the hole to the right as he works his way behind the center, then he makes a quick cut to the left side and gets space after the move. Another example from this clip happens at the 1:16 mark. This is actually a very similar play to the first one, Freeman presses the hole to the right with the offensive line blocking mostly to the right before he cuts to the left and the opening created by the left guard crashing down. The quickness allows Freeman to change direction and get a burst of acceleration which allows him to clear the LB who is coming through the hole unblocked.. he presses to the right and then when he cuts is able to get behind 41 with his quickness through the hole, this also allows him to outrun the backside pursuit of the defender coming at him from the right.(who is unblocked by the right tackle and crashing down the LOS).
I think these are two very good examples of his short area quickness, which is something that shows up in every game I have watched of Freeman.
Borden
Footballguy
You can definitely see the light boxes in the Wash St and ASU game. The ASU game only count the times when he runs the ball. The other two games I will go back and check but I believe the Stanford game they do load the box and I don’t remember Wash at the moment.
You describe what you see as patience that usually doesn’t work out. I would think that it’s more hesitation potentially from not be able to see the hole until it’s developed.
The other key difference is might be what we are considering burst. I consider burst as the speed generated from a step or two. I don’t think he has the burst of an NFL feature back. Look at Sony and Barkley. No one is comparing Barkley to Freeman here obviously but on Sundays they’ll play basically the same caliber of players. I think where this shows up the most is on those short runs. If a back that heavy had enough burst then he should never get stood up like he goes against college defenders.
I’m cheating a here a bit
because I see your example to FreeBaGel but that example is also perfect for my side of the coin too. 6 man box, Royce is getting going, does his jump cut and gets outside the tackle. Now to me if he as NFL burst he would be able to make that WR block work. The safety is deep enough that Freeman should be meeting him past that block. At which point he would only have safety to work against and space. Plus the safety is likely going to be flat footed because you can the S take the angle to the side line right away instead of just straight bearing down on Royce. The WR block is awkward because he’s getting thrown around but however you see it there’s room to just burst up field. The second play is similar including a 6 man box. Some nice movement as he is carrying but he doesn’t show that explosion once he breaks through. I think that this second play should be a bigger gain. He’s not breaking #2’s angle at all. It’s obviously not a bad run but it’s not a special run by a NFL feature back. You could argue about the WR block on both plays having an affect on the runs but I think with better burst the safety has to take an wider angle and it would open a lane. Edit: Good discussion as always. It makes more interesting when we don’t agree.
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barackdhouse
Footballguy
Coming around on him.....
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I wasn't looking at the defense that much really and it was sort of an afterthought to your comments once I started watching the Stanford game. I have seen a lot of different RB have some really good plays against Stanford recently, but I have seen them clamp down on the run at other times, and I think they have finished well statistically, although maybe not recently. Anyhow its definitely not a SEC level of competition that he is facing, the QB is a running threat as well, although he hangs Freeman out to dry on a couple of those option runs. On one of those Freeman is facing a diamond of free defenders, nobody was going to be able to create under that situation. Some of the other stuffs are failed blocks where Freeman is getting hit in the legs by his lineman and the defender being driven back.You can definitely see the light boxes in the Wash St and ASU game. The ASU game only count the times when he runs the ball. The other two games I will go back and check but I believe the Stanford game they do load the box and I don’t remember Wash at the moment.
You describe what you see as patience that usually doesn’t work out. I would think that it’s more hesitation potentially from not be able to see the hole until it’s developed.
The other key difference is might be what we are considering burst. I consider burst as the speed generated from a step or two. I don’t think he has the burst of an NFL feature back. Look at Sony and Barkley. No one is comparing Barkley to Freeman here obviously but on Sundays they’ll play basically the same caliber of players. I think where this shows up the most is on those short runs. If a back that heavy had enough burst then he should never get stood up like he goes against college defenders.
I’m cheating a here a bit
Edit: Good discussion as always. It makes more interesting when we don’t agree.
On the plays where he just stops, yes he doesn't see a hole, I didn't take the time to evaluate if there was one on these plays, if there was it wasn't obvious to me, it just looked like the defense won the LOS and the blocking failed to open anything. What I don't like about what Freeman does is that he just stops and waits for blocking that doesn't develop. If he made a decision earlier maybe he could have got a couple yards by just hitting it hard. He doesn't really run like that much though, he is more of a finesse runner, sure he is mostly north south but he likes to pick his way through traffic instead of playing behind his pads. What I don't like about this is what he isn't showing me, which is good power and leverage, he just doesn't really try to run that way as much as a lot of RB will. So I hear what you are saying in regards to burst, I don't think our definitions are that different for that trait. Most of the time when I give a RB a point for burst it is the player generating power in the short area that either allows them to beat angles, or to be moving too fast to get arm tackled, or to generate yards after contact due to the bust of acceleration.
I understand your comment better now in relation to the traffic Freeman is facing on these plays, Oregon does have a threat of a passing game and a mobile QB. So they are scheming some lighter boxes I can see how that is related to the runway comment. I iniitally thought about this being related to build up speed, but I think Freemans acceleration is fine, when I think of a RB needing build up speed or a runway I think of a very slow RB who won't play much unless they are very powerful or something, and Freeman doesn't run with power very much, he is more finese.
I never compared him to Barkley.
By my charting Barkleys worst game out of 10 was a 49 which is what I got for a total for Freeman in two of these games. Barkley averages a total score of 69.2 the average of those 4 games for Freeman was 46.75 a 22 point difference or 47% better.
There is a pretty huge gap between those two, Guice was 59.2 so still a tier above Freeman in my view, thus Freeman falling into tier 2a instead of tier one.
Those scores are comparable to Sony Michel, Ronald Jones. Chubb's score does not compare to these guys very well. I do think I should watch one other game for Chubb however and drop Chubbs worst game from the sample, which is something I did for Guice already In the game against Notre Dame Chubb only gets 8 points from my charting and that is bringing down his overall score. I can see Chubb being in the same tier as these guys if I did that. Michels average overall score is 39.8 for the 5 games I charted for him, so its not like he is a lot better than Chubb is.
Bakley and Guice are a tier above all of these other guys in my opinion.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Some good points above. I think in the op I mentioned scheme worrying me. As far as patience vs hesitation: I think he does a great job letting his blockers engage at the 2nd level before moving up the field. He doesn’t really stop in the backfield or try to reverse direction, but he can wait a split second for the defense to collapse then make his move. Trent Richardson was a back that hesitated at the LOS. I don’t see that with freeman. I’ve seen a lot of backs who over the years get the ball, put their head down and run as hard and as fast as they can where the play is supposed to go. Kind of how they’re taught, but I disagree with it (I’m no coach.) He’s no sure thing, but at the end of rd 1 you’re usually not getting a guy without warts. If you like Johnson or ballage or Kelly over him I won’t argue, they have good/Bad points as well.
My favorite quality of Freeman’s is how a defender has him squared up but he is able to slightly shift and the tackle just glides off of him. Time and again I see him coming up to a defender, where some backs lower the battering ram and put a hit on as they’re tackled, he angles up and kind of just bounces off the guy.
My favorite quality of Freeman’s is how a defender has him squared up but he is able to slightly shift and the tackle just glides off of him. Time and again I see him coming up to a defender, where some backs lower the battering ram and put a hit on as they’re tackled, he angles up and kind of just bounces off the guy.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
He completely stops two times in the Washington State game. its not something I like to see. Patience to wait for blocks sure, but the blocks never come and likely were not going to on those two plays. I would rather see him try to hit it up in there in that situation instead of just standing there waiting until he gets tackled.Snorkelson said:
Its not like he does it in every game, but he definitely does in that game.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
He needs about 3 steps to change directions when hes at full stride. He has good vision but don't see him succeeding in plant a go outside zone.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Like the landing spot
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Cross between turbin and Stacy? C’mon man! I hope he tears it up in Denver.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I just drafted him at 1.7 in a PPR. Penny went one pick ahead of me. I figured I would have one of the two no matter what and was good with that.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
No love for Royce on the boards. Last year, you hear all about booker and Henderson, CJ quietly goes for 1000 yds. You hear the same thing now, I bet there’s a good number of people that think booker is the back to own in Denver. Elway referred to Royce as a “bell cow type”, also mentioning an open competition in the same article (posted above). Denver is going to use its run game, they didn’t sign Keenum to carry the offense. Booker hasn’t put it together and Henderson is more of a cop back. Get ready for dry cbs announcers saying things like “Royce is on a roll!” because it’s going to happen.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Umm, I’m taking a ride on the Rolls Royce.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Having watched both in college, Freeman was far superior than Booker.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
You have room for one more?
With the departure of Anderson and Charles there are 314 carries up for grabs!!!!
Also, after drafting him Elway called him a “bellcow”
Connect the dots gentlemen.
Tex
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I have a share, and in another League tried to move back from 4 with no luck (had a decent offer to move to 8 but didn’t think freeman would be there, he wasn’t.) Still mad about the turbin/Stacy comp.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Bellcow sounds better than "first and second down" and "thumper". I agree that he was drafted to be their starter and he's got decent enough hands to contribute in the passing game a little but here's the actual quote:
"He’s a bellcow type,” Elway said, via the team’s website. “First and second down. With the size that he has and he’s got good speed … heads downhill. He’s a guy that we needed. We needed a thumper.”
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Also references when in the red zone. So without taking a carry it appears he’s locked up 1st and 2nd down, 3/4 and 1, and red zone work. That’s a pretty dang good start.....
bostonfred
Footballguy
Don't get me wrong, I like Freeman. I'm just always looking for indication that a guy might have a three down job.
The only guy in the big 8 in this class whose coach had specifically referred to him as a three down back is penny. “He is also going to be a three down back for us and he can do everything. He needs to work on his pass protection which he was not asked to do a lot of. But he will give us the ability to play him on all downs and that versatility is really big.”
Guice and Freeman have now been explicitly referred to as first and second down guys. Chubb was assumed to be, and Koetter said Jones needs to work on his receiving.
Surprising nobody, Belichick didn't talk about Michel's role. For Kerryon, it was "I think this guy’s very versatile that he can run inside, but I think we’ll probably use him more to run outside as well", whatever that means.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Agreed, Freeman could very well be the back people regret passing on a la Hunt, Kamara, etc....
If our Draft was held today i’d Have a shot at Freeman but by the time late August rolls around I’m sure that opportunity might be gone. I’m sure I’ll get one of the backs that’s left, the WR of my choice, Mayfield (don’t judge me) and hopefully I can grab Gesicki as well.
Tex
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
I will take a wild guess that he will be asked to carry the ball on inside and outside runs. His coach is very smart to do this since Kerryon is listed as a RB. Could you imagine if he had talked about him rushing the QB...
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Freeman may not be a three down back as a rookie but that doesn’t mean he will not be his sophomore season. Freeman 751 receiving yards as well so there will be no reason for him to come off the field. I’m putting my money on Freeman to eventually be the “bell cow” in Denver. He’s in the perfect situation for a running back and he’s talented as well.
With 300+ carries available in Denver he’ll likely grab a majority of the carries plus the passes. It would surprise me one bit if he challenged Barkley for yards as a rookie.
Tex
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Bold prediction. Are booker/Henderson any more proven pass catchers/blockers? I’m not asking rhetorically, I just don’t know if they’ve shown anything. If not I don’t see why freeman can’t be the guy.
One thing to keep in mind while looking at last year's Broncos stats is the late season change in OC from McCoy to Musgrave.
Under McCoy, there was an ineffective three-way timeshare among CJA, Booker (when healthy) and J. Charles...although CJ started games, the carries were very random but generally equal distribution game-to-game.
Soon after Musgrave took over is when carries became concentrated in CJ's hands....CJ consistently began getting 15+ carries per game (about 2/3)...while the share for Booker and Charles dropped significantly vs. earlier in the year.
Given Musgrave's power-running philosophy and the physical similarities between Freeman and CJ, I would expect the last 5-6 games of 2017 to be the best indicator of Freeman's stats in 2018...Booker just doesn't have the running style Musgrave seems to prefer.
1200 total yds / 20- 30 recpts and 8-10 TD's are well within Freeman's reach IMO.
Under McCoy, there was an ineffective three-way timeshare among CJA, Booker (when healthy) and J. Charles...although CJ started games, the carries were very random but generally equal distribution game-to-game.
Soon after Musgrave took over is when carries became concentrated in CJ's hands....CJ consistently began getting 15+ carries per game (about 2/3)...while the share for Booker and Charles dropped significantly vs. earlier in the year.
Given Musgrave's power-running philosophy and the physical similarities between Freeman and CJ, I would expect the last 5-6 games of 2017 to be the best indicator of Freeman's stats in 2018...Booker just doesn't have the running style Musgrave seems to prefer.
1200 total yds / 20- 30 recpts and 8-10 TD's are well within Freeman's reach IMO.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Charles and Anderson got 80% of the carries last year and those carries are gone. Booker was given more looks last year and to a degree he performed a little better than the previous year. Henderson is JAG. I’m sure will be a roll there for Booker but Freeman is going to get his chance and he’s more talented then the other two. Now that I’ve had a chance to digest the draft everything is becoming more clearer.
If I had to choose right now i’d Choose Freeman over Michel and I’ve been talking about Michel since he was 15 or 16 years old. As of today there are two concerns with Michel, fumbling and it’s unknown what role he play in NE. It’s soooooo unpredictable on a “week-to-week” basis.
ETA Michel does have draft capital on his side so they must have some type of role in mind.
Tex
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Also having watched both players I don't think Freeman is much better than Booker if he is.
Don't mean it as a slight to Freeman (how I assume from comments here how most might take that) I think Booker was very good in Utah. It hasn't translated to the NFL though.
Both of them can catch the ball. I expect Booker to at least maintain a role as a receiver if Freeman does win the starting job.
bostonfred
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
This would be correct. Penny is the worse pass block and best pass catcher per route run in this class he just has a small sample.
Tex
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bostonfred
Footballguy
I disagree. This is the part of coach speak you can actually trust.
Right after the draft they're telling the fans how good a guy is and how excited they are with their draft. So when they say I had as a first round pick on our board I can't believe he slid to the third round, that's pretty meaningless. Of course they like the guys they drafted more than other teams, that's why the other teams didn't draft them first.
When they say this guy is a really good runner, or talk up his college production, that's meaningless too. That's just more evidence about why they picked him, not real information.
But when they draft a guy in the first round, that's meaningful. They plan to use him.
And when they talk about a guy as having other skills - a linebacker who can pass rush or a running back who can catch - they are telling you how they view his skills.
And when they talk about his role on their team, that's the strongest kind of evidence. Coaches usually won't commit to using a guy in a certain way - they usually say he's good at this and good at that, but carroll specifically said "He is also going to be a three down back for us". Why say that when you have a kid working on a comeback from a serious injury? Why say that if you're planning to have a dedicated third down guy? I'm not saying that he will succeed in the jobs, but he'll be given the opportunity.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well I am not sure how much stock I want to put into what horse face says when he is describing Freeman as a thumper. He may weigh 230 lbs but he does not run with power. He is more finesse.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I think you’re point is valid but you’re making some leaps to get there. It’s not like he has a curfew that says “no 3rd Downs.” Maybe you’re right, he can’t block or catch. Maybe not. I’ve seen backs come into the league and do things they weren’t asked to do in college.
Carson isn’t known for his 3rd down prowess. Prosise wasn’t good at pass blocking coming out, can’t imagine the handful of games he’s actually played in would change my mind. From his draft profile:
“He looks like he has no idea what he's doing at times in protections and that is what could keep him off the field early in his career." -- NFL West area scout”
Mike Davis maybe? Hardly an “experienced” backfield. While penny may have issues in that aspect of his game, the current depth chart won’t stop him from having a shot. And maybe he can pass block/catch, we really don’t know imo. The offense in college wasn’t asking him to do much of that.
