*** Official 2018 San Francisco 49ers thread *** (3 Viewers)

[efactor]

Good-bye Carlos Hyde. 

Not surprising since he isn’t a good receiver despite the increase in catches this year. A lot of dump off passes pre Jimmy G inflated those numbers. 

Amazing that his 6 million dollar contract for 2018 makes him the 8th highest paid RB in the league (currently anyway) while pedestrian WRs are pulling in 8 million a year. 

Welcome Jerrick McKinnon.  

 

[efactor]

Jerick McKinnon signs w/ the niners. 4 years / $30M. Good pick up but I still want to see them add a bigger RB via the draft.

https://twitter.com/PSchrags/status/973904818099118080

Like the move. Fits the system much better than Hyde and is an excellent receiver. 

Makes him a top 5 paid RB but hard to complain about that with the money that the pedestrian WRs are pulling in. 

 

[chinawildman]

Like the move. Fits the system much better than Hyde and is an excellent receiver. 

Makes him a top 5 paid RB but hard to complain about that with the money that the pedestrian WRs are pulling in. 

Yea... one thing that's always disappointed me with Hyde was his subpar vision, but maybe being treated to Gore consistently slipping through the smallest of gaps had something to do with that as well.

 

[efactor]

Yea... one thing that's always disappointed me with Hyde was his subpar vision, but maybe being treated to Gore consistently slipping through the smallest of gaps had something to do with that as well.

Will be interesting to see the details of the contract.  Bet there is an easy out after 2 years and heavy on incentives. 

 

[chinawildman]

Will be interesting to see the details of the contract.  Bet there is an easy out after 2 years and heavy on incentives. 

Also makes me wonder what they plan to do w/ Breida and Williams. Breida is of a similar build and even went to the same school as Jet. If the niners take another RB in the draft (which I expect them to do) Williams will probably be the odd man out.

 

[efactor]

Also makes me wonder what they plan to do w/ Breida and Williams. Breida is of a similar build and even went to the same school as Jet. If the niners take another RB in the draft (which I expect them to do) Williams will probably be the odd man out.

Yeah, will be an interesting situation to watch in camp. The way Williams was raved about by Shanahan after last years draft makes you think he will be given every opportunity to win a role, but Brieda showed well last year and McKinnon will obviously be the main guy this year, so not a lot of touches available for Williams barring an injury to McKinnon or Brieda.  

Consensus is that they will add a “power back” in day 3 but not sure that is part of the Shanahan backfield approach. Freeman and Coleman are fast, shifty type backs who cam catch the ball, which seems what he is looking for. Brieda had some struggles in the passing game last year and I expect that to be a big focus for him this off season. Turner is an excellent RB coach so I am confident that will be fixed. Drop issue was hopefully a rookie concentration issue. 

 

[kface]

I like McKinnon but not as a starter and not for that type of money.  Seems the 49ers are dropping a lot of money on pretty mediocre guys.  All fun and games right now but if they get good and have to start paying some of their own stars these things can quickly come back to bite them.  

 

[chinawildman]

I like McKinnon but not as a starter and not for that type of money.  Seems the 49ers are dropping a lot of money on pretty mediocre guys.  All fun and games right now but if they get good and have to start paying some of their own stars these things can quickly come back to bite them.  

Curious why you think that considering no numbers have been released for the Richburg signing, and Sherman's deal was generally considered friendly for the team. McKinnon is getting paid as a RB, but overall not a whole lot as efactor mentioned. 

 

[efactor]

I like McKinnon but not as a starter and not for that type of money.  Seems the 49ers are dropping a lot of money on pretty mediocre guys.  All fun and games right now but if they get good and have to start paying some of their own stars these things can quickly come back to bite them.  

Depends on how the contract is structured. Probably a cheap out after two years. They are in good cap shape for the next couple years. By 2020, the contracts for Juice, Smith, Garçon and probably McKinnon are off the books for the most part. Plus, the hits for Jimmy G go down by then as well  

Is McKinnon an overpay based on what the RB pay scale currently is? Probably.  But not outrageous and within their budget right now. I have less issue with them paying for McKinnon than if they gave Paul Richardson or Albert Wilson the type of contracts they got. 

They seem to have a pretty good grasp on their cap at this point anyway. Time to sign Sitton and call it a successful free agency. 

 

[kface]

Curious why you think that considering no numbers have been released for the Richburg signing, and Sherman's deal was generally considered friendly for the team. McKinnon is getting paid as a RB, but overall not a whole lot as efactor mentioned. 

We don't know how mckinnon is structured so i will leave that be for a bit but by any stretch of the imagine they paid a lot for a converted qb/part-time receiving back.  The guy hasn't proven anything and is being paid substantially more than Hyde.

The goodwin deal was ridiculous in my books.  ANother middle of the road guy signed for big bucks.  I like him well enough but he's just not worth that kind of money.  The sherman deal is team friendly so it's pretty good.  Sounds like the Richburg deal is going to be well...rich

Even the Kilgore deal seems pretty rich too me.

I get overpaying for oline though.  I don't agree with overpaying for wrs and rbs.  A rb of mckinnon's ability could have easily been found in the mid rounds of the draft.  

 

[efactor]

Goodwin had almost a 1000 yards playing with the likes of Hoyer and Bethard for 2/3s of the season. He got a 20 million dollar, 3 year extension. Richardson and Wilson got 8 million average deals for performance considerably less than that. Goodwin looks like a bargain in comparison.  If Goodwin played out his contract and has a similar year in 2018, his 2019 contract would be greater than what his extension was. 

 

[kface]

Goodwin had almost a 1000 yards playing with the likes of Hoyer and Bethard for 2/3s of the season. He got a 20 million dollar, 3 year extension. Richardson and Wilson got 8 million average deals for performance considerably less than that. Goodwin looks like a bargain in comparison.  If Goodwin played out his contract and has a similar year in 2018, his 2019 contract would be greater than what his extension was. 

I just don't think he's that good and he doesn't grade out as being that good.  Yes he had an alright year on a team that was playing from behind lots and then went pass happy.  I don't think the patriots rate their team and signings by other teams bad deals.  There is unanimous consent everywhere i have read that the richardson and wilson deals are straight up awful.  

 

[SF409ers]

We don't know how mckinnon is structured so i will leave that be for a bit but by any stretch of the imagine they paid a lot for a converted qb/part-time receiving back.  The guy hasn't proven anything and is being paid substantially more than Hyde.

The goodwin deal was ridiculous in my books.  ANother middle of the road guy signed for big bucks.  I like him well enough but he's just not worth that kind of money.  The sherman deal is team friendly so it's pretty good.  Sounds like the Richburg deal is going to be well...rich

Even the Kilgore deal seems pretty rich too me.

I get overpaying for oline though.  I don't agree with overpaying for wrs and rbs.  A rb of mckinnon's ability could have easily been found in the mid rounds of the draft.  

Lol, what?  Have you seen the contracts that similar or lesser WR's received yesterday?  Makes that a great deal.  He played lights out down the stretch and it's extension on top of this year. 

Kilgore is essentially a one year deal who provides good depth at all interior spots.

Sherman was going to make 39 million before he wasn't.  Let's see details on McKinnon and Richburg first. 

We have so much cap space we can't spend it all over the next few years and are in great position to re-sign anyone we need.  Check out spotrac before worrying abut future cap space issues that don't exist.

 

[kface]

Lol, what?  Have you seen the contracts that similar or lesser WR's received yesterday?  Makes that a great deal.  He played lights out down the stretch and it's extension on top of this year. 

Kilgore is essentially a one year deal who provides good depth at all interior spots.

Sherman was going to make 39 million before he wasn't.  Let's see details on McKinnon and Richburg first. 

We have so much cap space we can't spend it all over the next few years and are in great position to re-sign anyone we need.  Check out spotrac before worrying abut future cap space issues that don't exist.

Again if you are running your team comparing your deals to deals that everyone think are absolutely terrible you are going to run your team into the ground.  

 

[SF409ers]

Again if you are running your team comparing your deals to deals that everyone think are absolutely terrible you are going to run your team into the ground.  

It's called a market and there is a price.  You're argument doesn't take into account current and future cap space and spending needs.  Sure they could pass on signing guys and have extra money they wont spend but what good does that do?  Too many people freak out when they hear contract amounts.  Who cares if a guy gets a overpaid a bit if it doesn't put your cap in a bad spot going forward and the team feels the player is a good fit.  Good teams make it work because they find the right guys for an identified system.  So far Lynch and Shanahan have shown they are good at doing that.  They have been relatively quiet in FA this year and focused on several guys they see as good fits and acquired them. 

Which deal(s) is going to run them into the ground?  Have you looked at their current and future cap situations?  Here: https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/san-francisco-49ers/

Paraag Marathe is probably the best contract / cap guy in the business.  The Niners are not going to have any cap issues.

 

[Wingnut]

You just cant please everyone.

The cap goes up every year, money wise they will be fine, Marathe is a numbers whiz.

When the 49ers are in the playoffs and chasing ring #6, I dont think anyone is gonna look back and say "We shouldnt have paid <insert player here> X amount of dollars".

LETS GO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kface]

It's called a market and there is a price.  You're argument doesn't take into account current and future cap space and spending needs.  Sure they could pass on signing guys and have extra money they wont spend but what good does that do?  Too many people freak out when they hear contract amounts.  Who cares if a guy gets a overpaid a bit if it doesn't put your cap in a bad spot going forward and the team feels the player is a good fit.  Good teams make it work because they find the right guys for an identified system.  So far Lynch and Shanahan have shown they are good at doing that.  They have been relatively quiet in FA this year and focused on several guys they see as good fits and acquired them. 

Which deal(s) is going to run them into the ground?  Have you looked at their current and future cap situations?  Here: https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/san-francisco-49ers/

Paraag Marathe is probably the best contract / cap guy in the business.  The Niners are not going to have any cap issues.




5

I have looked at their cap and their situation.  I don't feel as confident as you.  They have arguably overpaid for every single free agent signing this year.  I like Jimmy G but that is a rich contract for a guy that hasn't done much (and don't get me wrong I agree they had to do it).  Cap numbers change quickly.  The 49ers have next to no talent on their team right now.  Most would agree with that, and that's why they have a ton of cap room.  When they have to re-up one of the rookies (if they work out) for 20million a year that money goes away fast.  The lack of talent does not make for good cap management.  Good cap management is shown when there is lots of talent and tough decisions have to be made

Lynch and Shanahan have been there for 1 year and have overpaid for pretty much everyone so I'm not sure how you can make the claim that 'they are good at doing that'.  Lynch has never even been a GM before.  

 

[Wingnut]

 The 49ers have next to no talent on their team right now.  Most would agree with that.

Dude.

 

[kface]

Dude.

I'm just curious, and I know this is a 49ers forum and everyone's a homer, but who are our top talents.  Staley is great. Who else after that?  Most of our first round picks have been somewhat disappointing.  Foster seems like he could be something but he's in trouble.  Who else is there?

 

[chinawildman]

The goodwin deal was ridiculous in my books.  ANother middle of the road guy signed for big bucks.  I like him well enough but he's just not worth that kind of money.

I might be biased but as a UT-alum I always thought Goodwin was very underrated and misused as an NFL WR. He's been characterized as having the potential to be a poor man's ODB and that sounds about right to me. He's always had the skills IMO, just never utilized enough as a "real" WR with a diverse route tree in the NFL to realize his potential.

An even more unproven Albert Wilson just got a 3yr $24M contract on the open market so I don't consider 3yr/$20M for Goodwin to be rich at all.

 

[kface]

I might be biased but as a UT-alum I always thought Goodwin was very underrated and misused as an NFL WR. He's been characterized as having the potential to be a poor man's ODB and that sounds about right to me. He's always had the skills IMO, just never utilized enough as a "real" WR with a diverse route tree in the NFL to realize his potential.

An even more unproven Albert Wilson just got a 3yr $24M contract on the open market so I don't consider 3yr/$20M for Goodwin to be rich at all.

I don't claim to know anything really...it's all just opinions on this board so maybe you are right about him.  From what i have seen from him in the nfl i don't think he's anything special but maybe that changes

As i said previously i don't think it's a good idea to say his deal is fine because you can compare it to a universally hated deal that wilson got.  Bad teams are bad teams for a reason and it's usually because they make deals like the albert wilson deal.  

 

[SF409ers]

I have looked at their cap and their situation.  I don't feel as confident as you.  They have arguably overpaid for every single free agent signing this year.  I like Jimmy G but that is a rich contract for a guy that hasn't done much (and don't get me wrong I agree they had to do it).  Cap numbers change quickly.  The 49ers have next to no talent on their team right now.  Most would agree with that, and that's why they have a ton of cap room.  When they have to re-up one of the rookies (if they work out) for 20million a year that money goes away fast.  The lack of talent does not make for good cap management.  Good cap management is shown when there is lots of talent and tough decisions have to be made

Lynch and Shanahan have been there for 1 year and have overpaid for pretty much everyone so I'm not sure how you can make the claim that 'they are good at doing that'.  Lynch has never even been a GM before.  

Lol, OK.  I feel we are talking in circles and I think you should go back and look at their cap space, contract structures, etc.  Again, they are far from having any issues.  But to each their own. 

And FYI - Paraag not Lynch manages this and all contract negotiations.  Lynch and Kyle identify the talent and you're nuts to think this team doesn't have any.

 

[kface]

Lol, OK.  I feel we are talking in circles and I think you should go back and look at their cap space, contract structures, etc.  Again, they are far from having any issues.  But to each their own. 

And FYI - Paraag not Lynch manages this and all contract negotiations.  Lynch and Kyle identify the talent and you're nuts to think this team doesn't have any.

I'm glad you are so confident that you are 100% right that you can laugh at others opinion

I'll ask the same question to you.  Who is the talent on this team?  I'm honestly curious.  The consensus is that Thomas has underperformed.  Foster is in deep trouble.  Armstead's grade was pretty terrible in 2017 etc...

I love staley and i love garcon (who i think is a star in the right situation and healthy).  I also like Buckner

 

[SF409ers]

I'm glad you are so confident that you are 100% right that you can laugh at others opinion

I'll ask the same question to you.  Who is the talent on this team?  I'm honestly curious.  The consensus is that Thomas has underperformed.  Foster is in deep trouble.  Armstead's grade was pretty terrible in 2017 etc...

Was laughing at the next to not talent comment.  Before I list all the of talent on this team, if I may, are you a Niner fan and did watch any games last year?  Want to know if you are coming in from the outside which would make sense and I could understand why would you ask.  If you did watch the games and are a fan we may already be at impasse and probably shouldn't waste anymore time on this.  We are all entitled to opinions so it's all good.

 

[kface]

Was laughing at the next to not talent comment.  Before I list all the of talent on this team, if I may, are you a Niner fan and did watch any games last year?  Want to know if you are coming in from the outside which would make sense and I could understand why would you ask.  If you did watch the games and are a fan we may already be at impasse and probably shouldn't waste anymore time on this.  We are all entitled to opinions so it's all good.

I've been a 49ers fan for 35 years and I'm not sure I missed a game in that time

Just looking at the pff grades almost all the starters are either in the bottom half of 'average' or 'poor'

 

[chinawildman]

I'm glad you are so confident that you are 100% right that you can laugh at others opinion

I'll ask the same question to you.  Who is the talent on this team?  I'm honestly curious.  The consensus is that Thomas has underperformed.  Foster is in deep trouble.  Armstead's grade was pretty terrible in 2017 etc...

Our tackles on both offense and defense are good. Thomas was serviceable and hopefully will get better. Foster is in deep #### but he has talent. Ward and Tartt are talented safeties. Witherspoon has potential. Goodwin is a good player (we obviously differ on the valuation there) and Kittle shows a lot of potential IMO. RIchburg and McKinnon were both very coveted FAs this year despite not being the typical "marquee" names like Norwell or ARob.

It's funny how people define "talent"... I remember during the singletary years many ppl complained about how the niners had no talent.... then Harbaugh came in and in 2 years suddenly we were a team loaded with "talent" even though it was basically the exact same guys.

 

[chinawildman]

I've been a 49ers fan for 35 years and I'm not sure I missed a game in that time

Just looking at the pff grades almost all the starters are either in the bottom half of 'average' or 'poor'

Metrics and talent are completely different things. Metrics can be attributed to scheme, fit, coaching, health, etc.... numerous things that have absolutely nothing to do with individual player talent.

 

[kface]

Our tackles on both offense and defense are good. Thomas was serviceable and hopefully will get better. Foster is in deep #### but he has talent. Ward and Tartt are talented safeties. Witherspoon has potential. Goodwin is a good player (we obviously differ on the valuation there) and Kittle shows a lot of potential IMO. RIchburg and McKinnon were both very coveted FAs this year despite not being the typical "marquee" names like Norwell or ARob.

It's funny how people define "talent"... I remember during the singletary years many ppl complained about how the niners had no talent.... then Harbaugh came in and in 2 years suddenly we were a team loaded with "talent" even though it was basically the exact same guys.

Well i try to define talent in two ways.  My eyeball test and i like pff.  They tend to take the homerism out of it.  

Staley is great (but old).  Thomas was graded as straight up awful last year.  Ward again...poor grade and to me missed a lot of coverages last year.  I forgot about Tartt...i like him.  

Even looking at your list you are pointing out 'potential' not talent.  That's different

In the McKinnon thread i think the concensus is paying him as a top 10 back in the leauge is a little ridiculous.  I don't get the sense at all that he was 'coveted'

 

[kface]

Metrics and talent are completely different things. Metrics can be attributed to scheme, fit, coaching, health, etc.... numerous things that have absolutely nothing to do with individual player talent.

Well they don't really use 'metrics' per se but analyze performance.  How else can you physically rate players in a non-homer kind of way?  It's the best system we have.  

Scheme matters but these guys played in the scheme last year and didn't perform. Thomas was absolutely awful

 

[kface]

You bring up the harbough years but he had bowman, brooks, willis, and smith.  Anyone and everyone (including pff) agrees that all those guys were absolute talented studs.  He also a host of other stars including gore.

 

[SF409ers]

I've been a 49ers fan for 35 years and I'm not sure I missed a game in that time

Just looking at the pff grades almost all the starters are either in the bottom half of 'average' or 'poor'

Fair enough.  PFF grades probably would like crappy and while it's a cool scoring system, it grades things without a lot of context.  It was a rough to start to the year and we had more rookie snaps than anyone.  As they gained experience and we got a QB things started to change as did the level of play.  Even before Jimmy we had plenty of guys playing at a high level.

Talent Tartt, Colbert, Ward, Weatherspoon, Foster, Buckner, Thomas, Staley, Brown, Taylor, Kittle, Goodwin, Garcon, Breida, Juice, Jimmy G.  Plenty of others who played well like Bourne, Bolden, and DJ Jones.

 

[kface]

Fair enough.  PFF grades probably would like crappy and while it's a cool scoring system, it grades things without a lot of context.  It was a rough to start to the year and we had more rookie snaps than anyone.  As they gained experience and we got a QB things started to change as did the level of play.  Even before Jimmy we had plenty of guys playing at a high level.

Talent Tartt, Colbert, Ward, Weatherspoon, Foster, Buckner, Thomas, Staley, Brown, Taylor, Kittle, Goodwin, Garcon, Breida, Juice, Jimmy G.  Plenty of others who played well like Bourne, Bolden, and DJ Jones.

I guess that's where we will have to disagree.  75% of those guys you listed are a dime a dozen.  Breida will be nothing in this league I almost guarantee it.  I don't know what you watched but Tomas played awful.  Foster isn't going to play this year.  Garcon I love, but is injury prone and old.  STaley is on his last legs.  

 

[Wingnut]

Well i try to define talent in two ways.  My eyeball test and i like pff.  They tend to take the homerism out of it.  

Staley is great (but old).  Thomas was graded as straight up awful last year.  Ward again...poor grade and to me missed a lot of coverages last year.  I forgot about Tartt...i like him.  

Even looking at your list you are pointing out 'potential' not talent.  That's different

In the McKinnon thread i think the concensus is paying him as a top 10 back in the leauge is a little ridiculous.  I don't get the sense at all that he was 'coveted'

Deforest Buckner down? If youre a fan of PFF, youll like his 91 grade.

It was just reported that 3 or 4 other teams were willing to pay McKinnon the same thing, but he wanted to come to SF. It was his market price, and if Shanny sees him as a great fit, theres nothing wrong with paying him since we can afford him.

 

[SF409ers]

I guess that's where we will have to disagree.  75% of those guys you listed are a dime a dozen.  Breida will be nothing in this league I almost guarantee it.  I don't know what you watched but Tomas played awful.  Foster isn't going to play this year.  Garcon I love, but is injury prone and old.  STaley is on his last legs.  

Like I said we all have opinions.  Let's hope I'm closer to right than you are for both of our sakes

 

[chinawildman]

Well they don't really use 'metrics' per se but analyze performance.  How else can you physically rate players in a non-homer kind of way?  It's the best system we have.  

Scheme matters but these guys played in the scheme last year and didn't perform. Thomas was absolutely awful

Metrics are good info, but need to evaluated as part of a bigger picture. Take McKinnon for example... he stepped into an offense created around Adrian Peterson, who was not a natural pass catcher. You can't rely on his metrics in that role and situation to project how he'll do as a "do-it-all" type of RB in a shanahan offense. 

 

[kface]

Deforest Buckner down? If youre a fan of PFF, youll like his 91 grade.

It was just reported that 3 or 4 other teams were willing to pay McKinnon the same thing, but he wanted to come to SF. It was his market price, and if Shanny sees him as a great fit, theres nothing wrong with paying him since we can afford him.

I added Buckner up there somewhere...i did forget about him.  So we have buckner, a pretty much retiring staley at this point, Tartt who looks excellent etc.

 

[kface]

Metrics are good info, but need to evaluated as part of a bigger picture. Take McKinnon for example... he stepped into an offense created around Adrian Peterson, who was not a natural pass catcher. You can't rely on his metrics in that role and situation to project how he'll do as a "do-it-all" type of RB in a shanahan offense. 

That's true but that also means you can't assume he'll be good either.  He's a huge question mark being paid as a top 10 rb.  He just became a rb after all.  He grades out poorly on pff and again, the consensus in most of the threads I'm reading is that he isn't good and it was a questionable signing. I've seen numerous f grades on that one.

If you want to sit back and say that's all junk and he's going to be a star on the 49ers...that's fair but there is certainly no proof in anything he's shown so far.  

 

[kface]

Like I said we all have opinions.  Let's hope I'm closer to right than you are for both of our sakes

We finally agree...i hope they work out for sure and they all become stars.  I'm just not as excited as some going into this season because I see a lot of talent lacking on paper.  Especially on the oline, lbs and cbs.  I think the backfield is awful, the wrs are mediocre and tes are questionable.  A great qb can overcome that though so hopefuly JG Is great.  They don't really have that firey and awesome defense captain teams need

 

[efactor]

I guess that's where we will have to disagree.  75% of those guys you listed are a dime a dozen.  Breida will be nothing in this league I almost guarantee it.  I don't know what you watched but Tomas played awful.  Foster isn't going to play this year.  Garcon I love, but is injury prone and old.  STaley is on his last legs.  

Now you're just being ridicules trying to drive home your point. 

49ers are filling their holes, which is what free agency is for, especially if you have the cap room and are smart about the length of the contracts, which they are being.

They are missing some key areas for sure, such as an elite edge rusher and the guard position in particular.  I am confident that the guard position can still be addressed by signing someone like Sitton or using a day two pick (or two) in what is said to be a very strong guard class.  Edge is a lot tougher.  Hate to see them pass over a better prospect at 9 to take a gamble on someone like Davenport or Landry. 

Anyway, they have come a long way since last training camp when they were in the discussion for worst team in the league with the Browns.  One brick at a time...................

 

[kface]

Now you're just being ridicules trying to drive home your point. 

49ers are filling their holes, which is what free agency is for, especially if you have the cap room and are smart about the length of the contracts, which they are being.

They are missing some key areas for sure, such as an elite edge rusher and the guard position in particular.  I am confident that the guard position can still be addressed by signing someone like Sitton or using a day two pick (or two) in what is said to be a very strong guard class.  Edge is a lot tougher.  Hate to see them pass over a better prospect at 9 to take a gamble on someone like Davenport or Landry. 

Anyway, they have come a long way since last training camp when they were in the discussion for worst team in the league with the Browns.  One brick at a time...................

One brick at a time for sure and i would like them to be patient and build through the draft.  JG can change everything if he is as good as he looks.  Hard to tell until next year when teams have tape on him and are ready for him.  

And I'm honestly curious about what you think is ridiculous about my post.  There is some potential but there is very little talent on this team still.  We are going to need a star tackle really soon with Staley's age.  I think we also need some major lb and cb help.  

For all the laughing at my posts there hasn't been anyone that has really said we have the core talent to be a great team long term.  There is potential in some positions but the talent isn't there yet.  

 

[chinawildman]

You bring up the harbough years but he had bowman, brooks, willis, and smith.  Anyone and everyone (including pff) agrees that all those guys were absolute talented studs.  He also a host of other stars including gore.

How quickly you forget... In 2010 the singletary niners finished 6-10. Check out their starting lineup: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/2010.htm

A. Smith, Gore, V. Davis, D. Walker, Crabtree, Staley, Iupati, Ginn, Willis, Bowman, J. Smith, Spikes, Goldson, Clements, A.Brooks.

I can tell you in 2010 not a lot of people thought of the 49ers as a team with A LOT OF TALENT. In 2011 they signed Rogers and Whitner but many of the building blocks for the Harbaugh years were in place before he got there.

 

[Wingnut]

Sure we dont have a lot of big names right now, but we have a lot of young and upcoming talent, and it takes time...We're one of the youngest teams in the league right now. Juszczyk is a pro bowler. Trent Brown is a beast but needs consistency. Witherspoon was solid and will only get better. I think Trent Taylor can be a Welker/Edelman type receiver. We havent seen Joe Williams yet but Shanahan likes him and will give him every chance to succeed. I like Kittle, he has a chip on his shoulder and I like the way he plays. Garcon should flourish with Jimmy.

  They don't really have that firey and awesome defense captain teams need

Sherman will be a leader on defense.  As much as Ive hated him in the past, Im starting to warm up to him after reading several articles and interviews this week. I just hope he can get back to even 85% of his former self.

 

[kface]

How quickly you forget... In 2010 the singletary niners finished 6-10. Check out their starting lineup: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/2010.htm

A. Smith, Gore, V. Davis, D. Walker, Crabtree, Staley, Iupati, Willis, Bowman, J. Smith, Spikes, Goldson, Clements, A.Brooks.

I can tell you in 2010 not a lot of people thought of the 49ers as a team with A LOT OF TALENT.

Please tell me you see the talent there.  Gore, Davis, walker, crabtree, staley, Iupati, Bowman, willis etc...those guys were all pro-bowls and some even all-pros. That's an awesome core and even back then people saw it.  If you were in this thread in 2010 we all knew the coach stunk and the team was talented.  

 

[kface]

Sure we dont have a lot of big names right now, but we have a lot of young and upcoming talent, and it takes time...Im sure were one of the youngest teams in the league right now. Juszczyk is a pro bowler. Trent Brown is a beast but needs consistency. Witherspoon was solid and will only get better. I think Trent Taylor can be a Welker/Edelman type receiver. We havent seen Joe Williams yet but Shanahan likes him and will give him every chance to succeed. I like Kittle, he has a chip on his shoulder and I like the way he plays. Garcon should flourish with Jimmy.

Sherman will be a leader on defense.  As much as Ive hated him in the past, Im starting to warm up to him after reading several articles and interviews this week. I just hope he can get back to even 85% of his former self.

I don't really disagree with you but that's a lot of 'ifs' 

Again nobody in here has really said this team is talented (after laughing at my posts).  The response has been their is potential but that potential exists on every single team in the nfl.  My point stands that at this point there is not much talent there.

I like sherman (and always have even though he was a seahawk but i appreciate talent) but even before his injury there was a lot of chatter about age catching up.   I honestly don't think he sees any of those bonuses in his contract.  

 

[chinawildman]

Please tell me you see the talent there.  Gore, Davis, walker, crabtree, staley, Iupati, Bowman, willis etc...those guys were all pro-bowls and some even all-pros. That's an awesome core and even back then people saw it.  If you were in this thread in 2010 we all knew the coach stunk and the team was talented.  

Yea we knew the coach stunk... but it wasn't like we were a team bursting with pro bowlers. Anybody that thought we had some all star lineup in 2010 are kidding themselves. And that's my point, that talent I listed there wasn't so obvious in 2010 because they weren't performing like it.

I can guarantee that Smith's metrics greatly improved under Harbaugh and subsequently even better under Andy Reid... did that make him a more talented player all of a sudden? No, it's still same old captain checkdown Alex Smith.

 

[kface]

Yea we knew the coach stunk... but it wasn't like we were a team bursting with pro bowlers. Anybody that thought we had some all star lineup in 2010 are kidding themselves.

I can guarantee that Smith's metrics greatly improved under Harbaugh and subsequently even better under Andy Reid... did that make him a more talented player all of a sudden? No, it's still same old captain checkdown Alex Smith.

6 probowlers in 2010 and just a quick google shows high praise for bowman and staley without making the pro-bowl.  That's a great core

Smith's grades have been remarkably consistent on pff and pro-football reference.  

 

[Wingnut]

I think your definition of talent is different than everyone elses. Lots of players have talent but arent household names or pro bowlers. The coahes job is to take talent and turn it into production. Shanny has only been here one season and just recently got a QB. His system is regarded as one of the most innovative and explosive, an hes filling needs with players he thinks will fit his system. I guarantee they will have more than one pro bowler next season...and when that happens, youll look back and say "Well Ill be damned. They DID have some talent".

Just my $.02

 

[kface]

I think your definition of talent is different than everyone elses. Lots of players have talent but arent household names or pro bowlers. The coahes job is to take talent and turn it into production. Shanny has only been here one season and just recently got a QB. His system is regarded as one of the most innovative and explosive, an hes filling needs with players he thinks will fit his system. I guarantee they will have more than one pro bowler next season...and when that happens, youll lookk back and say "Well Ill be damned. They DID have some talent".

Just my $.02

You are right but I guess you are missing my point.  I agree there is some potential on this team but that potential is just as apt to fail as it is to succeed.  

I know you are a long time fan like me.  You could look at a guy like bownman, willis, smith, davis, gore etc...and say to yourself those guys are awesome and they are going to perform year over year.  We lack that right now is all i am saying.

I am hopeful but the fact of the matter is all that potential may not pan out.  I like Tartt for the probowl this year however.  Losing foster is huge in my books.  He made everyone around him better

 

[efactor]

One brick at a time for sure and i would like them to be patient and build through the draft.  JG can change everything if he is as good as he looks.  Hard to tell until next year when teams have tape on him and are ready for him.  

And I'm honestly curious about what you think is ridiculous about my post.  There is some potential but there is very little talent on this team still.  We are going to need a star tackle really soon with Staley's age.  I think we also need some major lb and cb help.  

For all the laughing at my posts there hasn't been anyone that has really said we have the core talent to be a great team long term.  There is potential in some positions but the talent isn't there yet.  

Well, it starts with QB.  I know it's vogue to point out "small sample size" when talking about Garappolo, but that small sample size was pretty impressive.  I am confident he will be light years better than Alex Smith, who you listed as a talented part of the 2010 team.  Hate to be a cliché, but he has "it".  He came into a very complicated offense and excelled with Goodwin and a couple 5th round rookies.  Garcon is back, Goodwin is quite good and Taylor and Kittle should be better just through experience.  Nobody outstanding, but a top QB (yes he will be) goes a long way towards making the receivers better.  I seem them taking a WR in either the 2nd or early 3rd this year as well.

Staley keeps in great shape and is the kind of guy like Wentworth who can play at a top level for another 3-4 years if he wants to, which will give them time to replace him.  Brown has been really good in the passing game and is an excellent right tackle.  My feeling is that with a lot on the line financially,  he comes to camp in good shape, which will help his run blocking.  Richburg should be a really good center in a ZBS and already rates as an excellent pass blocking center.  Guard is the issue.  We need at least at least one and maybe two if Garnett doesn't pan out.  Will be one of the things to watch in training camp.

Have to get some work done, so I will stop there for now. 

 

[chinawildman]

6 probowlers in 2010 and just a quick google shows high praise for bowman and staley without making the pro-bowl.  That's a great core

Smith's grades have been remarkably consistent on pff and pro-football reference.  

Are you being serious? A quick search on Wikipedia shows the 2010 pro-bowl had VD, Willis, and Lee (a punter) as pro bowl starters with J. Smith and Gore as alternates... you call that a "talented" team?

Alex smith's highest QBR on pro-football-reference pre-harbaugh was 44.4. (he was consistently in the low 40s pre-harbaugh). Post-harbaugh he has consistently been mid-50s to mid-60s.