Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
***Official*** 2016 defending Super Bowl Champion Denver Broncos (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter moleculo
- Start date
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Guess we will agree to disagree on the ROI on Von. And for the record I feel the same way about Houston. IMO I don't think paying either one of those guys is a great move because of the way it handicaps you elsewhere......and in Denver's case the EXTREME amount of pressure it puts on your franchise and front office to make sure they hit on the next QB they draft (which currently might not be good for DEN). As soon as you gave Von that money, it meant you had better be right about Lynch. KC didn't really have to worry about that with Smith on board, they have accepted what he is and what he isn't and have worked to put pieces around him to succeed. But I consider DEN QB situation still a work in progress and Siemian struggled with 2 of what are supposed to be the best WR's in football. It's really easy to blame injury and the offensive line, but I don't think either of the QB's currently on the roster are going to take this team to a SB (again just my opinion). But I have noticed, nobody has answered my question about do you really think either one of those guys can take you to a SB? My early gut call is no. Granted there isn't much to base that on since neither took a snap before this year, but even throughout the year, I think Siemian regressed instead of progressed. He played awful at KC in a huge game for them, and he wasn't a world beater except for a decent game against Cincy and a half against KC the first time around. If you want to give him a pass cause of the oline and injuries, I guess go ahead, but I just don't see it in him. And besides that, Lynch is supposed to be the answer (sooner than later remember) however initial indications don't look so good as he is really struggling while guys like Dak are thriving. So you could almost already chalk that up to a miss at the QB selection too. Not sure how DAK would have fared here, but he still seems to have the "IT" factor although many will say its because of the oline and Zeke. But I'm not sure Lynch does what Dak does if Lynch is in DAL. We'll see how it all plays out, I guess.
Von was a non factor for this team down the stretch as far as sacks go and really didn't show the game changing havoc wrecking he did for a stretch down the stretch last year. 6 of his 13 sacks came in two games, one of which DEN still lost and he only forced 3 fumbles all year. I'd want a little more for $19 mil and $70 guaranteed. I need more week to week game changing impact for that kind of cash. I think DEN got bullied into paying him because he did have a nice stretch that lead them to a SB victory as he carried a flawed team that had things fall for them almost perfectly in the post season last year. That money to me still seems more like a thank you for winning us a SB then it does for "we think you are going to play like that week in and week out from here on out". Last year they lost to OAK and PIT down the stretch (PIT dropped 34 on them with healthy stars) and then they got to face Cincy without Dalton and barely beat them in OT, and then PIT rolls into town with a banged up Ben, no Bell, and no Brown. They still gave DEN a go. Den was really lucky NE pissed away the number one seed as getting to play a banged up PIT was better than a hot KC team who seemed to have their number.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I guess there is no place for them to go but up.
The one thing you can probably be pretty sure of is that KC is not scared of DEN.
thatguy
Footballguy
Re: Von. The stat sheet is very misleading. His 13.5 sacks alone make him an elite edge rusher. And even if that was the only skill he possessed, teams would probably fork out $8-12 million/year for that kind of production. Then add that he generates far more pressures and QB hits than all but a handful of players at any position, his value goes up even more. Then add that teams create their gamelans almost entirely based on slowing him down (and yes, at times they do a good enough job that they significantly minimalize his direct impact). By dedicating not only preparation time but resources on the field to slowing him down, it opens things up for the rest of the front 7 and pass rushin DB's. Then take into account that he's probably the best run stopper on the team, and among edge rushers likely the best in the NFL, often using his instincts and speed/quickness to come from the opposite side of the play to stop running plays for losses or minimal gains. Bottom line: Von is far more than an elite edge rusher. He is a complete player who excels almost everywhere. He's even solid in pass coverage, albeit he's not asked to do it that often simply because he's so good at everything else.
I do agree that his impact as a pass rusher slipped significantly the past 4 games, but he was an absolute terror as a run stopper during that period.
We'll see. He played well enough to get his 3rd 1st Team All Pro and is one of maybe 3 or 4 players in contention for DPOY. And IMO he will only bet better. Time will tell if he was worth the money, and of course whether one of Trevor/Paxton develour into a top 10-15 QB will definitely impact perception in that regard. Again, only time will tell.
I do agree that his impact as a pass rusher slipped significantly the past 4 games, but he was an absolute terror as a run stopper during that period.
We'll see. He played well enough to get his 3rd 1st Team All Pro and is one of maybe 3 or 4 players in contention for DPOY. And IMO he will only bet better. Time will tell if he was worth the money, and of course whether one of Trevor/Paxton develour into a top 10-15 QB will definitely impact perception in that regard. Again, only time will tell.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Wait, the Broncos had won 7 of the last 8 against the Chiefs at the end of last season, but the Broncos were scared of them? 
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Yeah if you ask pretty much any Denver fan and they will answer you honestly....they will tell you they were very happy to be playing PIT last year in the playoffs instead of KC....Chiefs were rolling winning 11 straight including dismantling Denver in Denver....the Denver players if being honest would probably say the same thing....Wait, the Broncos had won 7 of the last 8 against the Chiefs at the end of last season, but the Broncos were scared of them?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That's a total dodge. Let's assume what you say is true...that doesn't mean the Broncos were scared of them. I as a Broncos fan was not either. Did I think the Steelers or Chiefs could have beaten them? Sure, but that doesn't equal being scared. I think you need to get over yourself, to be honest.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I don't think any legitimate playoff contender is "scared" of a team with Smith at QB. Sure they're good enough to beat anyone when they're on top of their game but they're not exactly what I would consider a dominant team.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Not sure what I dodged and Im not sure why you need to say I need to get over myself....I'm just having a football discussion on a football message board....giving some opinions and generating discussion....sorry if the opinions aren't in line with your thinking and make you upset somehow....let me know what you want me to say so I make sure I do this message board thing your way...
thatguy
Footballguy
I don't think it's his self that's the problem. He's just reveling in the fact that the Chiefs have had a more successful season than the Broncos for the first time in a long time. I say we let him have his little moment of glory (which will come to a screeching halt this weekend) and live with the delusion that this season is indicative of a major power shift in the AFC West.
Seriously, let's just let him have this. He's waited long enough, I think he deserves it.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
For the record I never said anything about Denver being scared.....
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
@thatguy, probably true. As Broncos fans, we are used to winning, in the regular season and the playoffs, and it's easy to forget that such things are foreign to Chiefs fans. 
@Stinkin Ref, no one is upset. You dodged the point, but hey, if it makes you feel better to delude yourself into thinking that last year's champs were scared of your little team that couldn't get out of the second round, after getting their first playoff win in decades, have at it. Have your moral victory; we'll take the Super Bowl victory.
@Stinkin Ref, no one is upset. You dodged the point, but hey, if it makes you feel better to delude yourself into thinking that last year's champs were scared of your little team that couldn't get out of the second round, after getting their first playoff win in decades, have at it. Have your moral victory; we'll take the Super Bowl victory.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
You go into an opposing team's thread with this type of post and wonder why you get a little backlash? You did the same thing in the Oakland thread.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Right. By and large, I think most NFL players are too confident and/or arrogant to be scared of another team.
Yep. I will cut him slack, though. He's a Chiefs fan, so he's probably not sure how to act when his team does well. Not like Broncos and Steelers fans.You go into an opposing team's thread with this type of post and wonder why you get a little backlash? You did the same thing in the Oakland thread.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Lol...this is a message board right?....people talk smack all the time...I feel I have also brought a different perspective to the thread from a non homer point of view.....but apparently thats frowned upon....You go into an opposing team's thread with this type of post and wonder why you get a little backlash? You did the same thing in the Oakland thread.
thatguy
Footballguy
To ref's credit he did bring some legitimate discussion which I appreciated and I think it's always fun to rib on each other a little bit so for me it's all in good fun. But obviously he had to expect some unsavory replies given that this is a thread dedicated to the Broncos and populated predominantly by Broncos' fans.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
thatguy
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Vance Joseph new HC, Congrads
thatguy
Footballguy
I'd be curious to know how he was viewed by Dolphins fans? Obviously the defense wasn't very good. Did the fans pin that on him or was it more based on the lack of talent? I know he was only there for one year but in general was he well-liked and respected by the fan base?
Last edited by a moderator:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Yup all I'm saying is expect a little backlash when you do this. I'm not trying to question the perspective that you bring. I think it's a good one.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Very much so I believe. Good young mind that impresses a lot folks. Gase knew when he hired him likely one and done.
I believe Adam Gase will help spawn a few more Head Coaches eventually.
We had nothing at LB and a rookie Corner always hurt, mostly late round fodder filling out the roster, he did an amazing job with what he had but 29th overall?
Wish him the best.
Last edited by a moderator:
moleculo
Footballguy
it's not like there is a Chiefs thread. if he wants to talk football, AFCW rival threads are probably the only place to go. It's fine, it really is but if he's going to say silly stuff like "Broncos are/were scared of the Chiefs," we're obviously going to laugh at that.You go into an opposing team's thread with this type of post and wonder why you get a little backlash? You did the same thing in the Oakland thread.
moleculo
Footballguy
it's all good. Truth be told, I'm kind of rooting for the Chiefs this year.
(1) they aren't the raiders.
(2) They aren't the Patriots.
(3) I actually went to a game in Arrowhead this season, and came away really impressed with the stadium, the BBQ, and the town. Not nearly as many Cameros up on blocks as I expected. I did see plenty of mullets and overalls though. That stadium was as loud as advertised - loudest stadium I've ever been to, and I've been to a lot of stadiums.
moleculo
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Chiefs aren't scary, spiders are scary, but not chiefs, unless maybe they are the Chiefs of the spiders.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
moleculo
Footballguy
OK, you never said "scared", but don't try to tell me that's substantially different than what you actually said.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
thanks .....and I'll stand by what I did actually say....because (as a KC fan living in CO) I can remember how it felt around here at the time and what I said was without a doubt accurate.....I think you guys in here would even admit it...I know the radio, media, etc had no problem saying it as well as any DEN fan I spoke too...heck if you don't admit it, you are kinda crazy.....if I was a DEN fan or a NE fan or whatever....heck yes you would rather see a no Antonio Brown no LeVeon Bell and hobbling Ben come into town instead of a team that was rolling like KC was.....heck KC went into NE and game them all they could handle (####### Knile Davis!)....
a healthy PIT had just put up 34 on the vaunted DEN D a few weeks earlier.....and KC put a beatdown on DEN as well.....and yeah I'll say it....if Brown and Bell are healthy....I think they work DEN again in the playoffs....DEN was kind of limping in after having lost to OAK and PIT and then barely beating CIN in OT and needing Manning to save the day after 5 turnovers against SD.....
call it what you want....no part of....preferred....scared....would rather.....if given the choice...whatever.....and I know this is where the let's steal Patrick Roy's comments "we can't hear you, blah, blah, blah" come in.....because that's what you say when other people are actually right and have a point and you don't want to admit it....you always have that to fall back on and it is the benefit of winning it all....and I will give them credit cause they deserve it.....but DEN also had it fall PERFECTLY for them last year....even if you don't want to admit it....
good luck guys....see you in the 2017 thread soon.....lol
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
moleculo
Footballguy
1. when KC beat Denver in 2015, that was the game that Manning was obviously injured. The only reason he played (speculation) was to be able to set some sort of record - I forget what it was, career yards or completions or something. Anyways, he throws 4 picks and ends up with a career worst rating of 0.0 (just as many Manning passes were caught by Chiefs as Broncos), and didn't even suit up for at least a month. Yes, KC won, but it was a game that they had 5 turnovers, 6 drives start in Denver territory, and only managed 2 TD's (vs 5 FG's).
2. you talk about how Pittsburgh was hobbled in the playoffs and when at full strength beat Denver, but you forget that when Denver played Pitt in the regular season, they were starting a back-up QB and two back-up safeties, one of who broke his leg during the game. When the Steelers took the lead in the 4th (i.e TD passes to Wheaton and Brown, while throwing 14 of 15 plays), the Broncos were literally playing Shiloh Keo and Josh Bush at safety - neither of whom were even on the roster at the end of November. Don't you think that in a game decided by Roethlisburger thowing to Wheaton and Brown, Stewart/Ward would have made a difference vs Bush/Keo?
When Ben was hobbled, and Bell/Brown were out, of course we preferred to play them than KC. Don't mistake that for us being scared, or intimidated, or not wanting to play KC. And let's be honest - KC did not give NE all they could handle. They were down by 14 with 6 minutes to play and went on a 5:00 TD drive to make it a one score game. The game was never really close.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
That's all I really said...guess it's the "no part of" language people get caught up on.....but it was the sentiment back then whether anybody here wants to admit it or not.... those words were used by DEN fans I talked to and on local and national radio/tv etc...KC was a much bigger threat at that time.....but not having to play them was just another part of the laundry list of things that fell perfectly for DEN those final few weeks of the regular season and first week of their playoffs....and I know in order to win it all EVERY team probably has to have a few things go their way....but it was crazy how many of them worked out for DEN....and I don't want to discount the solid games against NE/CAR because DEN was the better team on those days (at least the defense was).....I just think they were incredibly fortunate the way things that were out of their control, fell for them........we always just want to think our team is the "baddest team on the planet"....because if you admit you were lucky or fortunate in anyway it kind of takes away or puts an asterisk next to your victory....but in having real discussions, I respect more the comments from people who at least acknowledge things like the laundry list, more than those that just pound their chest in denial...(start rekindling your Roy quotes now)....heck, had KC went on to win the Super Bowl instead of DEN I would have no problem admitting I didn't want "any part" of NE that week and would have rather come into DEN and beat them again....and then take my chances against NE the next week....you don't often say that you would rather go to the #1 seeds house instead of the #2 seed....but unfortunately, PIT as a 6th seed beat CIN and thats the way things worked out....apologies for the back and forth banter, it really is all in good fun....and yeah even some jealousy....cause when you see the way things worked out for DEN that year, you just sometimes wish some of that magic dust would find its way to your team....like we could use some no Brown, no Bell love this week....lol....good luck with your new coach and the off season....should be a fun division again next year...
Last edited by a moderator:
moleculo
Footballguy
I'm not going to deny things fell our way last year. We most definitely did catch some breaks. We didn't get some of those breaks this year, and that's why we are home today (including a certain OT FG bouncing off the upright and going in). The difference between victory and defeat in the NFL can be very small, and a win here or there means you make the playoffs or not.Stinkin Ref said:
Personally, I would have loved for KC to come to Mile High in January. There isn't a doubt in my mind that we would have beaten them. Just because I preferred the easy out doesn't mean I didn't have faith that we'd win that one.
Rodrigo Duterte
Footballguy
Folks in here jumping like crappie in a nasty Missouri pond to take some stinkin bait.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
@Stinkin Ref, update on this special team the Chiefs had? (had to do in this thread since no one cares about the Chiefs enough for them to have their own thread)
Didn't win a single playoff game, after lucking into the division title because Carr got hurt. Well done. How very, very special.
Didn't win a single playoff game, after lucking into the division title because Carr got hurt. Well done. How very, very special.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
According to the experts, the Chiefs are still the 2nd best team in the AFC so at least he's got that going for him.@Stinkin Ref, update on this special team the Chiefs had? (had to do in this thread since no one cares about the Chiefs enough for them to have their own thread)
Didn't win a single playoff game, after lucking into the division title because Carr got hurt. Well done. How very, very special.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
meh...not a ton of KC fans use this site....nothing I can do about that....KC hasn't lucked into anything....beat OAK with Carr both times, swept the AFC West, not sure what more they have to do....if you want to call it luck....go ahead....I call that being the best team in the division....KC is 23-6 over their last 29 games (without Charles and Houston for the most part, best offensive and defensive players).....guess that's pretty lucky too...@Stinkin Ref, update on this special team the Chiefs had? (had to do in this thread since no one cares about the Chiefs enough for them to have their own thread)
Didn't win a single playoff game, after lucking into the division title because Carr got hurt. Well done. How very, very special.
I understand, nobody wants to give them any credit for being a good team....and until you win it all I guess we will have to take the medicine.....so may not be the best team in the conference, but clearly the best in the division....
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
tough loss to PIT....no doubt....holding on 2 point conversion was a killer call....game could have ended differently after that....probably don't beat NE but would have given them a go...
