Drill Baby Drill (what about EVs) (1 Viewer)

[BassNBrew]

Wait times for new Teslas are as long as 10 months — unless you're willing to splurge for expensive add-ons

Ford Closes Reservations for F-150 Lightning; Has 3-Year Backlog

There's been a bunch of talk about an operation warp speed for oil production.  Wouldn't it be easier to do this with electric vehicles?  Ford, Tesla, and others have shown the demand but can't produce the supply.  Rather than further juicing demand with tax credits, how about juicing these companies with a $10k incentive for each vehicle they produce*** and create a warp speed project to get them chips and raw materials they need.  If they need to hire more workers or offer overtime, let's fund them to do that.  Seems like a quicker and more environmentally responsible path to take.

*** This would apply to both union and non-union built vehicles.

 

[need2know]

Do something!

 

[BassNBrew]

Where do the posters who lean further left than most weigh in on this?  On one hand an EV like a Tesla or Ford Lightning is a luxury vehicle the poor can't afford and probably on the shopping list of the rich (not filthy rich).  Is the environmental gain worth helping the rich and corporate America over the lower class in this case?

 

[BassNBrew]

Wrong forum.  Sorry guys.  I self reported myself.  Hopefully I don't have a nice season.

 

[culdeus]

Some of the issue is range anxiety and unwillingness to look at a EV like the Mini Cooper with 120mi of range when the overwhelming number of drivers do 44mi max a day, and can't look at a car like a phone that you charge daily.

The other issue is to execute such a plan as above requires a lot more charging ports.  Apartments need them, and none really have plans to.  It's not a luxury item, it's an item for homeowners. 

 

[eoMMan]

It’ll all come along eventually. Before you know it, we’ll be complaining about our high electric bills due to our house chargers and the environmental effect of old, used batteries along with the creation of new batteries.

 

[Rich Conway]

Some of the issue is range anxiety and unwillingness to look at a EV like the Mini Cooper with 120mi of range when the overwhelming number of drivers do 44mi max a day, and can't look at a car like a phone that you charge daily.

The other issue is to execute such a plan as above requires a lot more charging ports.  Apartments need them, and none really have plans to.  It's not a luxury item, it's an item for homeowners. 

Right, the infrastructure to support EVs is just as big an issue as the supply.  Solving that problem almost certainly requires government intervention.

 

[knowledge dropper]

Where do the posters who lean further left than most weigh in on this?  On one hand an EV like a Tesla or Ford Lightning is a luxury vehicle the poor can't afford and probably on the shopping list of the rich (not filthy rich).  Is the environmental gain worth helping the rich and corporate America over the lower class in this case?

We are a long way away from widely available electric vehicles and charging stations. I hope the solution is not public transportation and bicycles for the middle and lower class for the next decade.  

 

[culdeus]

It’ll all come along eventually. Before you know it, we’ll be complaining about our high electric bills due to our house chargers and the environmental effect of old, used batteries along with the creation of new batteries.

These are solutions waiting for a problem.  Some very viable tech out there to recycle batteries at this point.   Electric companies have been foaming at the mouth trying to get the US consumer to use a more steady load 24/7.  The night going to charge EV is going to really help in a lot of ways become greener overall.  Home solar is getting viable enough as well to promote DC solar charging at home or in office parks as well.  

A Tesla M3 runs about 270WH/mi.  That's the gas equal of a minimum of 100 mi/gallon.  A complete fillup of my TeslaM3 at 85c/kwh runs about $7.50 to get nearly 300miles on it easily.  My Volvo at $4/gallon costs about $55 to do the same distance.  Maybe more if all city driving.  One thing that is not often mentioned is city driving is more efficient in an EV than a gas car.  I can see 350Wh/Mi in a commute where it might dip to 250 going 80-85 on the highway.

 

[the moops]

We are a long way away from widely available electric vehicles and charging stations. I hope the solution is not public transportation and bicycles for the middle and lower class for the next decade.  

I hope that public transportation and bicycles and ride shares and a host of other things are part of the solution. It really is ridiculous how many of us (me included) drive solo to work.

 

[SoBeDad]

Where do 50mpg hybrids end up? Seems like it gives you the benefits of gas economy and  range.

 

[Possum]

Where do the posters who lean further left than most weigh in on this?  On one hand an EV like a Tesla or Ford Lightning is a luxury vehicle the poor can't afford and probably on the shopping list of the rich (not filthy rich).  Is the environmental gain worth helping the rich and corporate America over the lower class in this case?

this is something I think doesn't get taken into account enough - I see a lot of people online talking about how it doesn't matter how high gas goes, they've got an EV and will be fine. Cool, I totally agree we need to move further in that direction over time, but there's a ton of lower-middle-class and blue-collar people and families out there who aren't in a position to purchase an EV vehicle and won't be anytime soon at the current pricing and production levels. I live in a rural area and know a lot of these type folks, and they're the people who are going to get hit the hardest with rising gas prices.

 

[culdeus]

Where do 50mpg hybrids end up? Seems like it gives you the benefits of gas economy and  range.

Demand for these is really low and moves with gas pricing.  The tech for plug in hybrids is there but isn't being adopted by damn near anyone, and sales aren't great. 

The BMW i3 despite being super ugly had a great concept that simply didn't catch on.  A EV with a gas based generator as a range extender.  That I really felt would start seeing some traction at certain vendors like Toyota who has the hybrid concept down, but they failed to make any moves in that direction.  Once you look past the looks there, the engineering was amazing.  

 

[The Dude]

Sure not everyone is gong to be able to transition to EV at the same time - but the law of supply and demand says that less demand lowers prices.

Also, here is a summary of auto makers plans to incorporate EV

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g35562831/ev-plans-automakers-timeline/

of note:  GM aims to have eliminated diesel and gas powertrains from its light-duty lineup by 2035

 

[culdeus]

this is something I think doesn't get taken into account enough - I see a lot of people online talking about how it doesn't matter how high gas goes, they've got an EV and will be fine. Cool, I totally agree we need to move further in that direction over time, but there's a ton of lower-middle-class and blue-collar people and families out there who aren't in a position to purchase an EV vehicle and won't be anytime soon at the current pricing and production levels. I live in a rural area and know a lot of these type folks, and they're the people who are going to get hit the hardest with rising gas prices.

I don't generally think of rural areas as heavy drivers.  IIHS would say living outside population centers adds 10mi a day to your total driving.   Doesn't seem like the biggest thing to freak out about. 

 

[SoBeDad]

Some of the issue is range anxiety and unwillingness to look at a EV like the Mini Cooper with 120mi of range when the overwhelming number of drivers do 44mi max a day, and can't look at a car like a phone that you charge daily.

The other issue is to execute such a plan as above requires a lot more charging ports.  Apartments need them, and none really have plans to.  It's not a luxury item, it's an item for homeowners. 

In my daughters apartment complex in SF, there are many charging ports in the parking garage. Where I work in Miami, with over 3,000 employees, I think there are 2 ports. 

 

[Possum]

I don't generally think of rural areas as heavy drivers.  IIHS would say living outside population centers adds 10mi a day to your total driving.   Doesn't seem like the biggest thing to freak out about. 

I don't think I'm freaking out about it, GB, just mentioning that I think it's an important consideration that should be discussed more than it is currently.

I also don't mean to focus on just rural lower income folks, either, so apologies if that wasn't clear - there are plenty of lower income families in cities and municipal areas that don't have the means to purchase EVs and are going to get hit hard with the rising costs. But in my experience people in rural areas have to rely on their personal vehicles a lot more than you think due to less available public transit options, distances between destinations making alternative transport like biking impractical, longer commutes and longer drives for things like groceries, etc. 

(edited because I'm a terrible writer  )

 

[quick-hands]

There's been a bunch of talk about an operation warp speed for oil production.  Wouldn't it be easier to do this with electric vehicles?  Ford, Tesla, and others have shown the demand but can't produce the supply.  Rather than further juicing demand with tax credits, how about juicing these companies with a $10k incentive for each vehicle they produce*** and create a warp speed project to get them chips and raw materials they need.  If they need to hire more workers or offer overtime, let's fund them to do that.  Seems like a quicker and more environmentally responsible path to take.

*** This would apply to both union and non-union built vehicles.

No.   I can't even get my wife's car fixed under warranty because they can't get the replacement  chip.

 

[quick-hands]

Where is the power going to come from to power all these EVs btw?   I'll help,   it's not wind and solar.

Coal, natural gas, oil.

 

[The Dude]

This is where we need to be - and the US needs to lead the way on being the top producer of batteries, chips and whatever other new tech is needed.  

 

[The Dude]

Where is the power going to come from to power all these EVs btw?   I'll help,   it's not wind and solar.

Coal, natural gas, oil.

While you are correct that those resources will be needed - it's not the great GOTCHA you want it to be.  Do you expect that we will not be using significantly less energy in those forms while transitioning to EV? 

 

[culdeus]

Where is the power going to come from to power all these EVs btw?   I'll help,   it's not wind and solar.

Coal, natural gas, oil.

This isn't true, at all.  The MPG efficiency gain alone will drive less energy use overall.  It shifts, yes to the grid, but no matter what generation is used, even if you throw all the oil and gas to generation instead of cars it's still far less energy use on the balance.  Toss in some solar/wind and you start to really move the needle, but it's 100% not required.  Think of EV as 120-150 MPG type cars, then imagine your life if you had to fillup your gas tank 2-3x a year.  Would it really matter at that point where it came from?  Probably not.  

 

[Possum]

Where is the power going to come from to power all these EVs btw?   I'll help,   it's not wind and solar.

Coal, natural gas, oil.

I think a lot of people would prefer we put all our eggs in the renewables basket for replacing fossil fuels, and I agree with that as part of a long-term approach, but it's pretty clear to me that while wind and solar are worthwhile investments for a portion of our needs, they're not nearly dependable enough yet and probably won't be anytime soon to be our primary replacement strategy. As a result fossil fuels aren't going away anytime soon and will have to be a large part of any realistic national energy plan for a good while yet.

I think an achievable strategy for reducing our foreign energy dependency and moving away from fossil fuels needs to take a very pragmatic long-term approach and focus heavily on increasing nuclear power at the same time as renewables, and in the short-term we need to face reality and accept a big increase in domestic oil production with the caveat that we'll move back away from it as soon as we reach a certain level of overall viability.

 

[Rich Conway]

this is something I think doesn't get taken into account enough - I see a lot of people online talking about how it doesn't matter how high gas goes, they've got an EV and will be fine. Cool, I totally agree we need to move further in that direction over time, but there's a ton of lower-middle-class and blue-collar people and families out there who aren't in a position to purchase an EV vehicle and won't be anytime soon at the current pricing and production levels. I live in a rural area and know a lot of these type folks, and they're the people who are going to get hit the hardest with rising gas prices.

While this is true, there is an argument that adding a few million EVs to the road, even if all of them belong to urban/wealthy/upper-middle-class folks, reduces overall demand for gas thus reducing the price of gas for others.  Will it knock the price down by $1 a gallon, no.  But it helps.

 

[knowledge dropper]

I don't think I'm freaking out about it, GB, just mentioning that I think it's an important consideration that should be discussed more than it is currently.

I also don't mean to focus on just rural lower income folks, either, so apologies if that wasn't clear - there are plenty of lower income families in cities and municipal areas that don't have the means to purchase EVs and are going to get hit hard with the rising costs. But in my experience people in rural areas have to rely on their personal vehicles a lot more than you think due to less available public transit options, distances between destinations making alternative transport like biking impractical, longer commutes and longer drives for things like groceries, etc. 

(edited because I'm a terrible writer  )

Sadly, the people you speak of don’t matter to the folks making these types of decisions.  

 

[Summer Wheat]

I would buy an EV right now if I could afford one.  With a wife and 3 kids it won`t be anytime soon.

We have been buying vehicles that are 2-3 years old.

Drill and be oil independent for the near future, then keep working on EVs and other sustainable sources.

Like they say, It is easier to find a job when you already have one.

 

[BassNBrew]

Some of the issue is range anxiety and unwillingness to look at a EV like the Mini Cooper with 120mi of range when the overwhelming number of drivers do 44mi max a day, and can't look at a car like a phone that you charge daily.

The other issue is to execute such a plan as above requires a lot more charging ports.  Apartments need them, and none really have plans to.  It's not a luxury item, it's an item for homeowners. 

While we don't want to drive mini Coopers, the demand for Teslas is huge.  The backlog for Rivians, F150s, and any other EV truck is staggering.  I realize it's not an easy solution, but increasing oil production at a drop of the hat isn't easy  either.

 

[BassNBrew]

I think a lot of people would prefer we put all our eggs in the renewables basket for replacing fossil fuels, and I agree with that as part of a long-term approach, but it's pretty clear to me that while wind and solar are worthwhile investments for a portion of our needs, they're not nearly dependable enough yet and probably won't be anytime soon to be our primary replacement strategy. As a result fossil fuels aren't going away anytime soon and will have to be a large part of any realistic national energy plan for a good while yet.

I think an achievable strategy for reducing our foreign energy dependency and moving away from fossil fuels needs to take a very pragmatic long-term approach and focus heavily on increasing nuclear power at the same time as renewables, and in the short-term we need to face reality and accept a big increase in domestic oil production with the caveat that we'll move back away from it as soon as we reach a certain level of overall viability.

Who wants to invest capital into something you're going to back away from in the future?  That's why I'm suggesting putting resources and capital into something the will have a longer shelf life.

 

[culdeus]

While we don't want to drive mini Coopers, the demand for Teslas is huge.  The backlog for Rivians, F150s, and any other EV truck is staggering.  I realize it's not an easy solution, but increasing oil production at a drop of the hat isn't easy  either.

Trying to sell people on a Mini wasn't the point, the point is that the main line cars people are after have range similar to a ICE.  If a compelling vehicle with low range as a city car is out, that represents a value to the class of people that could benefit here.  The Mini Cooper is here as an example of a car with low range, but more than enough for the typical US driver's daily needs and doesn't cost 60k.  With incentives it's more like 20k.   

 

[knowledge dropper]

Somewhere down the road this will take the largest cash for clunkers program in world history.  

 

[Possum]

While this is true, there is an argument that adding a few million EVs to the road, even if all of them belong to urban/wealthy/upper-middle-class folks, reduces overall demand for gas thus reducing the price of gas for others.  Will it knock the price down by $1 a gallon, no.  But it helps.

that's potentially true to some extent, Rich, and I agree that we need to make a shift to alternative vehicle power sources over the long haul. I'd just prefer to see our leadership accept the reality of the situation and find a way to provide more direct relief to the significant population of economically-disadvantaged Americans who're going to feel this impact the most.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

No thanks.

 

[Possum]

Who wants to invest capital into something you're going to back away from in the future?  That's why I'm suggesting putting resources and capital into something the will have a longer shelf life.

didn't mean to crap on your idea, Bass - I think it's a great plan to increase EV production and access in the US as much as possible. 

I just think that realistically that's not going to happen anytime soon, so we should diversify our approach to reduce the impact to the average American as much as possible until we can fully change direction.

 

[ChiefD]

So, for the guys who own electric vehicles:

What do you do for a long road trip? For example, my family takes a long road trip to Minnesota each year to a fishing resort. About 650 miles from our house to there. Truck is loaded with fishing gear, suitcases, and such.

For an EV car or SUV - how do you charge that thing on the road?

Do you have to plan out the charging stops and sit there and wait for a certain period of time?

Is there an EV that has that kind of range (I'm guessing not)?

This is the main reason I have stuck with gas-fueled cars. I like to get to my vacation quickly. Wondering if an EV would have to change that thought process.

 

[BladeRunner]

this is something I think doesn't get taken into account enough - I see a lot of people online talking about how it doesn't matter how high gas goes, they've got an EV and will be fine. Cool, I totally agree we need to move further in that direction over time, but there's a ton of lower-middle-class and blue-collar people and families out there who aren't in a position to purchase an EV vehicle and won't be anytime soon at the current pricing and production levels. I live in a rural area and know a lot of these type folks, and they're the people who are going to get hit the hardest with rising gas prices.

Current average price for an EV: $56,437.00.   That's about $20K higher than a comparable Gas car.  I bought my first house for 89K.

You're right - Unless prices come drastically down, only the rich or well-off will be able to afford one.  The poor will be left in the dust.

 

[BassNBrew]

Current average price for an EV: $56,437.00.   That's about $20K higher than a comparable Gas car.

You're right - Unless prices come drastically down, only the rich or well-off will be able to afford one.  The poor will be left in the dust.

Are we OK with the gov't getting involved to either increase production or reduce the price of the $56k to say $50k when it's leaving the poor in the dust.  Is the benefit to the the environment and reducing in gas prices enough of a spinoff to the poor that the left would support this?  

Really looking for some of our friends here that lean the farthest left to weigh in.

 

[BassNBrew]

didn't mean to crap on your idea, Bass - I think it's a great plan to increase EV production and access in the US as much as possible. 

I just think that realistically that's not going to happen anytime soon, so we should diversify our approach to reduce the impact to the average American as much as possible until we can fully change direction.

All good.  Lots of angles here to discuss. 

My biggest concern with pushing for more oil production is that it won't be needed long term.  We can see the EV wave coming.  Also if supply increases then foreign countries will flood the market and make our new investments unprofitable to operate.  I started this thread because there's been so much discussion about supply and very little about reducing demand.

 

[the moops]

So, for the guys who own electric vehicles:

What do you do for a long road trip? For example, my family takes a long road trip to Minnesota each year to a fishing resort. About 650 miles from our house to there. Truck is loaded with fishing gear, suitcases, and such.

For an EV car or SUV - how do you charge that thing on the road?

Do you have to plan out the charging stops and sit there and wait for a certain period of time?

Is there an EV that has that kind of range (I'm guessing not)?

This is the main reason I have stuck with gas-fueled cars. I like to get to my vacation quickly. Wondering if an EV would have to change that thought process.

We flew to Phoenix a couple months back and rented one and put over 1000 miles on it in a week. There are Supercharger stations throughout the metro area. Can get back to an 80% charge in about 45 minutes. So we timed our stop for lunch or grocery shopping for those charges. There are generic EV charging stations in many shopping plazas and grocery stores - but these can take several hours.

 

[joffer]

So, for the guys who own electric vehicles:

What do you do for a long road trip? For example, my family takes a long road trip to Minnesota each year to a fishing resort. About 650 miles from our house to there. Truck is loaded with fishing gear, suitcases, and such.

For an EV car or SUV - how do you charge that thing on the road?

Do you have to plan out the charging stops and sit there and wait for a certain period of time?

Is there an EV that has that kind of range (I'm guessing not)?

This is the main reason I have stuck with gas-fueled cars. I like to get to my vacation quickly. Wondering if an EV would have to change that thought process.

Tesla has a supercharger network.  Went to Oregon and back in August.

 

[Rich Conway]

didn't mean to crap on your idea, Bass - I think it's a great plan to increase EV production and access in the US as much as possible. 

I just think that realistically that's not going to happen anytime soon, so we should diversify our approach to reduce the impact to the average American as much as possible until we can fully change direction.

The problem is, that always seems to be the excuse, "It'll take too long, let's just pump more oil now."  If we had started investing heavily in green energy 20-30 years ago, we wouldn't be in this predicament today.

 

[culdeus]

Are we OK with the gov't getting involved to either increase production or reduce the price of the $56k to say $50k when it's leaving the poor in the dust.  Is the benefit to the the environment and reducing in gas prices enough of a spinoff to the poor that the left would support this?  

Really looking for some of our friends here that lean the farthest left to weigh in.

A closed loop system for gas taxes into EV incentives is not something that even the furthest left supports, despite gas taxes not being raised in decades.  A straight tax incentive was DOA in the last spending bills as well and not clear that pressure is from even the extreme left on this.  It has to be organically driven.

 

[culdeus]

So, for the guys who own electric vehicles:

What do you do for a long road trip? For example, my family takes a long road trip to Minnesota each year to a fishing resort. About 650 miles from our house to there. Truck is loaded with fishing gear, suitcases, and such.

For an EV car or SUV - how do you charge that thing on the road?

Do you have to plan out the charging stops and sit there and wait for a certain period of time?

Is there an EV that has that kind of range (I'm guessing not)?

This is the main reason I have stuck with gas-fueled cars. I like to get to my vacation quickly. Wondering if an EV would have to change that thought process.

A whole one trip a year.  Wow, I can't imagine the beating of 30 minutes extra waiting to get there.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Serious question cause I honestly don’t know. Are most of the utility companies who produce the electricity to fuel these cars fossil free? Will they be able to ramp up to the needs if electric cars increase exponentially? 

 

[BladeRunner]

We are a long way away from widely available electric vehicles and charging stations. I hope the solution is not public transportation and bicycles for the middle and lower class for the next decade.  

And especially with COVID, you think people are going to use public transportation much anymore?  Heck, even our bus lines were decreasing in routes before the pandemic too.

Public transportation is a non-starter for anyone outside of a big city, IMO, and then I would still question it in the post-COVID era.

 

[fruity pebbles]

A whole one trip a year.  Wow, I can't imagine the beating of 30 minutes extra waiting to get there.

seemed like an honest question. Why the snark?

 

[culdeus]

Serious question cause I honestly don’t know. Are most of the utility companies who produce the electricity to fuel these cars fossil free? Will they be able to ramp up to the needs if electric cars increase exponentially? 

No.  EVs are so efficient compared to gas it's not the same energy in energy out equation here.  The issue isn't generation it's getting enough charge ports in places they need to be.  

 

[BassNBrew]

So, for the guys who own electric vehicles:

What do you do for a long road trip? For example, my family takes a long road trip to Minnesota each year to a fishing resort. About 650 miles from our house to there. Truck is loaded with fishing gear, suitcases, and such.

For an EV car or SUV - how do you charge that thing on the road?

Do you have to plan out the charging stops and sit there and wait for a certain period of time?

Is there an EV that has that kind of range (I'm guessing not)?

This is the main reason I have stuck with gas-fueled cars. I like to get to my vacation quickly. Wondering if an EV would have to change that thought process.

I don't own an EV, I just want to once there's availability and I solve the problem of charging when a truck won't fit in my garage.  Not sure about your situation, but I use my truck like a truck as I'm constant hauling crap as a property manger.

When traveling in the past, the economics of renting a car made sense when I was going to do a lot of driving.  1000 miles is $300 in depreciation on a $30k car not including oil/change and tire wear.  For some it may make sense to downsize if that fits their everyday use and then rent a larger gas vehicle for vacation.

I realize rental car prices have jumped alot in the last year so the equation changes.

 

[culdeus]

seemed like an honest question. Why the snark?

It's strange to see such range anxiety for a single annual trip, yet I know it's there, and will drive less adoption.

 

[culdeus]

The single best trip planner for virtually all EV brands and models with huge customization is 

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

If you want to see what a road trip would look like in any number of EV with planned charging stops, this is probably the best available solution.

Obviously the data for Tesla is better, but you can plug in most any model you want with certain specs.  

 

[fruity pebbles]

It's strange to see such range anxiety for a single annual trip, yet I know it's there, and will drive less adoption.

just think with the rise in gas prices, a lot of people who haven’t previously researched electric cars are now more open to the idea and have a lot of questions.