Russell Wilson would like to disagree with you.The Seahawk line was just as bad if not worse last year.
Russell Wilson would like to disagree with you.The Seahawk line was just as bad if not worse last year.
It was the lowest rated OL unit in the entire NFC* last year. Russell is on pace for 27% less sacks while actually throwing 60 more attempts this year -- and has had a much worse run game to lean on sans Rawls and Lynch.Russell Wilson would like to disagree with you.
Do you have the data for hurries, hits, and are you considering QB play getting rid of the ball faster? Sacks are hardly definitive.It was the lowest rated OL unit in the entire NFL last year. Russell is on pace for 27% less sacks while actually throwing 60 more attempts this year -- and has had a much worse run game to lean on sans Rawls and Lynch.
Any reason why you don't include hurries or QB play?55 QB hits thru 9 games.
114 last year. Pace of 98 despite throwing 60 more times in 2016.
Much better.
I think there are way too many variables to make any conclusion.No. But that's enough indicators to compare from '15 to '16.
Sacks. Hits. Poor RB play offset.
Nothing yet. When I see him at 100% (or close to it) then that will be different.I think there are way too many variables to make any conclusion.
Why don't we do this, what do you think Rawls is going to do behind this year's O-Line?
I'm not even sure what the debate is here anymore because that's pretty much my expectations... 8-13 touches, and much lower YPC than last season.Nothing yet. When I see him at 100% (or close to it) then that will be different.
Until he is 100% and in game-shape, probably a paltry 3.2 to 3.5 yards per carry. But more importantly not miss his assignments.
ftr* my history with the Seahawk backfield is unmatched over the past 4-5 years. And that's not BS, you can search it.
This year the Seahawks drafted Prosise despite having Rawls. Last year they signed Fred Jackson despite having Lynch. Seems pretty clear they like having both types of backs on the roster.You can't use Rawls YPC from last season and pit it against CJ's YPC for this season. The O-Line is completely revamped at every single position, and not in a good way.
3rd round is a very high pick for a RB, given that the RB position generally has a devalued draft status. Seattle clearly has a vision of how their offense will be going forward, and I don't think it's a power run game. They were forced into this due to having to pay for their defense, and not being able to re-sign Okung.
Given it's a copy cat league, what I think happened is they took a page out of another team's book. That team did not have a great offensive line, but drafted a 6'1" pass-catching back who was a converted WR late in the 3rd round in 2015. That RB also happens to be the #1 RB in PPR, David Johnson. Prosise is 6'1", a converted WR, drafted in the late 3rd round in 2016, playing behind a makeshift line.
Prosise has David Johnson lite upside, and Michael was released primarily because of Prosise being able to play 77% of the snaps against New England, not because Rawls is actually 100% (literally has not been 100% for 11 months now).
I think Rawls upside in Seattle going forward, esp in PPR leagues, is extremely limited, because of where the offense is going. I'd bet on Prosise filling out as the prototypical modern day dual threat RB who is a mismatch for LBs, while Rawls is relegated to change-of-pace ball of energy back to give Prosise breathers. I am near certain it will not be a 50-50 snap count split between Rawls and Prosise. I'd bet on 70-30 in favor of Prosise.
Too true. It seems you two are arguing just to argue. I've fallen into that trap before as well.I'm not even sure what the debate is here anymore because...
Agree with you, Rawls will be the top dog. Prosise is a nice change of pace but Seattle wants to be physically dominant and Prosise is not built to be that guy. Carroll loves Rawls style of running and sees Prosise as a specialized runner (see quote about Prosise below).Too true. It seems you two are arguing just to argue. I've fallen into that trap before as well.
When trying to determine who's getting the carries moving forward I would suggest taking a deeper look at the coaching staff and overlying team concept. They want to run the ball, win the time of possession, be physically dominant on both sides of the ball, and keep the defense on the sideline as much as possible. That hasn't been happening this year (TOP is a huge negative at this point). Which RB going forward is going to help them get back to this style of play? I believe that all signs eventually point back to Rawls. Sure, Prosise will play a role, but Rawls is the guy that they want to be their bell cow. Its why they also invested a pick in a guy like Collins as well. If Rawls was going to be unable to go they needed to take a chance on someone else that could fill that role (even though they still had Michael on the roster). Lastly, when examining their draft picks keep in mind that Prosise wasn't drafted to replace anyone on the current roster. They went into the draft with two RBs under contract. No NFL team is headed into training camp with only two RBs on the roster.
Last year they had Lynch, one of the best running backs in the league. Prosise didn't even see the field until week 7 due to being a rookie and being injured pre season (IIRC) aka they didn't want to use him until they had to. Not saying that Prosise is going to have major control of the backfield but the situations are not comparable.This year the Seahawks drafted Prosise despite having Rawls. Last year they signed Fred Jackson despite having Lynch. Seems pretty clear they like having both types of backs on the roster.
Last year the thunder guy got much more run than the lightning guy. And for the first 8 weeks this year too.
We'll see how things go from here, but thinking the split will lean Prosise flys in the face of recent Seahawks history.
Lynch dressed for 7 games last year, and got double-digit carries in 5 of those. They spent the majority of the year with a different "thunder" guy.Last year they had Lynch, one of the best running backs in the league. Prosise didn't even see the field until week 7 due to being a rookie and being injured pre season (IIRC) aka they didn't want to use him until they had to. Not saying that Prosise is going to have major control of the backfield but the situations are not comparable.
I kind of agree. I'm also seeing a lot of talk that Prosise isn't built like an everydown back, but he's 5 pounds heavier than Rawls (220 to 215). Is it that he's fast and big is throwing people? Maybe people are referring to Rawl's center of gravity since he's shorter? I liked how Prosise ran, and he didn't seem shy about taking it up the gut.Last year they had Lynch, one of the best running backs in the league. Prosise didn't even see the field until week 7 due to being a rookie and being injured pre season (IIRC) aka they didn't want to use him until they had to. Not saying that Prosise is going to have major control of the backfield but the situations are not comparable.
He's a converted WR, which could be factoring into that. He's essentially the same build as David Johnson (6'1" 225)I kind of agree. I'm also seeing a lot of talk that Prosise isn't built like an everydown back, but he's 5 pounds heavier than Rawls (220 to 215). Is it that he's fast and big is throwing people? Maybe people are referring to Rawl's center of gravity since he's shorter? I liked how Prosise ran, and he didn't seem shy about taking it up the gut.
I think we're just looking at this in two different ways. I see this as the Seahawks having a new weapon and shifting their offense given their current situation (o-line problems mainly). You see them going back to last year's game. Neither of us are "wrong" at this point. Prosise isn't Fred Jackson and Rawls isn't Lynch, for better or worse.Lynch dressed for 7 games last year, and got double-digit carries in 5 of those. They spent the majority of the year with a different "thunder" guy.
Meanwhile the "lightning" guy, Fred Jackson, had 26 carries in 16 games.
Maybe Prosise will break the mold. It'd be the opposite of what Seattle has done for the last year and a half, though.
What exactly is the point of making such a definitive statement? It runs contrary to what Pete Carroll has been about for a very long time.Maybe Prosise will break the mold.
Good point. Maybe that's it. As far as I can see, he runs tough, has speed and solid hands and tries really hard. I want to see more, but I actually think he can be a good bellcow.He's a converted WR, which could be factoring into that. He's essentially the same build as David Johnson (6'1" 225)
In non PPR, I'd roll the dice and say Rawls. In PPR, I'd probably stick with Prosise. But I'd also say Prosise seems to have a safe floor for either. How's that waffling for ya?Fantasy football is all about choices without all the data. I think a lot of the debate is, given that you can only choose one of these 2 players to have RoS given the current information that you have, right now today. What would you choose?
Wednesday November 16th, pick one. We can check back end of season.
I'm with you on that.In non PPR, I'd roll the dice and say Rawls. In PPR, I'd probably stick with Prosise.
I basically said that exact thing in the very next sentence that you cut out. And in my previous post too.What exactly is the point of making such a definitive statement? It runs contrary to what Pete Carroll has been about for a very long time.
You can't use Rawls YPC from last season and pit it against CJ's YPC for this season. The O-Line is completely revamped at every single position, and not in a good way.
3rd round is a very high pick for a RB, given that the RB position generally has a devalued draft status. Seattle clearly has a vision of how their offense will be going forward, and I don't think it's a power run game. They were forced into this due to having to pay for their defense, and not being able to re-sign Okung.
Given it's a copy cat league, what I think happened is they took a page out of another team's book. That team did not have a great offensive line, but drafted a 6'1" pass-catching back who was a converted WR late in the 3rd round in 2015. That RB also happens to be the #1 RB in PPR, David Johnson. Prosise is 6'1", a converted WR, drafted in the late 3rd round in 2016, playing behind a makeshift line.
Prosise has David Johnson lite upside, and Michael was released primarily because of Prosise being able to play 77% of the snaps against New England, not because Rawls is actually 100% (literally has not been 100% for 11 months now).
I think Rawls upside in Seattle going forward, esp in PPR leagues, is extremely limited, because of where the offense is going. I'd bet on Prosise filling out as the prototypical modern day dual threat RB who is a mismatch for LBs, while Rawls is relegated to change-of-pace ball of energy back to give Prosise breathers. I am near certain it will not be a 50-50 snap count split between Rawls and Prosise. I'd bet on 70-30 in favor of Prosise.
Or they just gave up on Christine Michael.You almost feel like Carrol's mind snapped after the Arizona 6-6 tie and decided the run game is a thing of the past. He convinced the GM to cut Michael saying "what do we need running backs for anymore". I know the stats may not back this up, and Prosise had 17 carries against the pats, but it really looked like the Seahawks had given up on the whole run game completely.
alot of PROsise optimism running a bit hot. It's no accident that cmike is gone the same week Rawls is coming back. No way did they clear a path getting rid of cmike for a rookie 3rd round pick with 26 career carries to carry the load. Sorry, but reality is going to set in pretty fast this week if we see a healthy Rawls out there. Anyone paying attention knows PC loves him some Rawls.I'm not sure this post could get anymore PRO Prosise.
"3rd round pick is a very high pick for a RB" Here is a list of 3rd round RBs in the last 5 years: Kenyan Drake, Prosise, Tevin Coleman, Duke Johnson, David Johnson, Matt Jones, Charles Sims, Tre Mason, Terrance West, Jerick McKinnon, Dri Archer, Knile Davis, Ronnie Hillman, and Bernard Pierce. Only 1 of them has locked down a starting job long term and proven to be good. 1 out of 13, not counting Prosise...
"David Johnson lite upside" He could just as likely be Charles Sims, Duke Johnson, Jerick McKinnon, Bilal Powell, or Jeremy Langford(also a former WR).
"Michael was released primarily because of Prosise being able to play 77% of the snaps against New England" Really? How do you know this? Are Pete and you boys? You do realize that Seattle also invested a 5th round pick in Alex Collins and a 7th round pick in RB Zac Brooks in the same draft as Prosise. If they felt so great about this David Johnson lite RB, why waste 2 more draft picks? It's possible Michael was cut because of his lack of production or he doesn't play ST or Rawls was coming back or an undisclosed injury/attitude/locker room issue with Michael or Prosise's performance. 1/5 chance, but you know the primary reason....
By the way Rawls had the 2nd highest YPC among rookie RBs in recent memory(minimum 100 carries). MJD 5.7, Adrian Peterson and Thomas Rawls 5.6.
While I think Prosise is a better pass catching threat. He's averaged 3 receptions over his 5 career NFL games. Prosise has seen more action the last 3 games and averaged 4 receptions over that span. How many receptions did Rawls average over the initial two games this season? 3.
"I'd bet on a 70-30 in favor of Prosise" Prosise has led the Seahawks in touches in only 1 game this season. But now he's going to take 70% of the teams touches from this point forward.
Like I said, not sure one could spin this more in a Prosise way. I think he takes more of the passing down work, but i'm not going so far as to claim him as David Johnson lite or 70% of Seattle's touches.
I would go ProsiseFantasy football is all about choices without all the data. I think a lot of the debate is, given that you can only choose one of these 2 players to have RoS given the current information that you have, right now today. What would you choose?
Wednesday November 16th, pick one. We can check back end of season.
Prosise also is still learning he RB craft. I think he's capable of improving as a running back even from hereI would go Prosise
He's significantly tougher than he's given credit for, with a combine build right between DJohnson and MForte. He's had 20 something NFL touches. He's not the first rookie to fail on his first 2 goal line runs in the NFL, and he showed a ability to squeeze out the extra 2-3 yards in the scrum using a combination of moderate power and moderate slipperiness. He's a player who offers more leverage for the offense, allowing Prosise 1 on 1 matchups against LBs in the passing game, or Prosise getting to run the ball against the nickel package if the defense decides to cover him with a safety. We know Prosise is currently healthy and productive and has the support of the coaches and his teammates. Russell Wilson is on fire and Prosise has just earned his confidence (Prosise took a big hit to catch that poor sideline throw by Wilson). Finally, there is a not insignificant chance that Rawls looks rusty again when he comes back, with inconsistent production for the first few weeks. ROS, I take Prosise. For the playoff run (wk 14-16 iml), I might slightly favor Rawls.
It's no accident that cmike is gone the same week Rawls is coming backalot of PROsise optimism running a bit hot. It's no accident that cmike is gone the same week Rawls is coming back. No way did they clear a path getting rid of cmike for a rookie 3rd round pick with 26 career carries to carry the load. Sorry, but reality is going to set in pretty fast this week if we see a healthy Rawls out there. Anyone paying attention knows PC loves him some Rawls.
Prosise will have value as the 3rd down back and spell occasionally. After watching him run it doesn't take a professional scout to see he can't offer what Rawls does in the running game. He got 77% of the snaps because they gave up on cmike, not because they think Prosise is worthy to take 70% of the snaps going forward. all imho.
That's prosisely what I wanted to hear.ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports C.J. Prosise will remain the Seahawks' starting running back "for the immediate future."
That's from ESPN this morning, it's basically the 3 main points I've tried to illustrate.Yes, Thomas Rawls returns this week from the fractured fibula that has sidelined him for much of the season, but he will be eased back into action.
Michael's release was about Michael's regression as a runner, and it was a statement about rookie C.J. Prosise, who is expected to remain the starter for the immediate future.
In many ways, Prosise makes the Seahawks an even more dangerous and unpredictable offense, which was evident in Sunday night's win over the New England Patriots. Frankly, that's a development few saw coming.
Maybe we should have seen it or dug deeper to realize it. When Pete Carroll and Seahawks general manager John Schneider selected Prosise out of Notre Dame in the third round of the 2016 NFL draft, it was a declaration in itself. The Seahawks, like most teams, don't reach in the third round. That's the same round in which they patiently, albeit nervously, targeted Russell Wilson in 2012.
I don't think the coach committed to a starter one way or another. This was a mid-week observation piece by ESPN on the SEA backfield. I don't even think the starter matters. I think that snap counts will matter as it affects potential usage on any given play. If you are not on the field, you don't have the opportunity to score fantasy points through an audible, for instance.Wasn't CMike the starter last Sunday? I've learned to ignore when a coach says so and so is the starting rb. Not saying Prosise won't lead the backfield for most of the game and actually think he will with Rawls just coming back, but I just take it with a grain of salt when a coach says that.
This is so wrong it hurts to read it. If you really believe this, you have no idea how Carroll and company do things in Seattle. Playing football for the Seahawks is an absolute meritocracy. Its why so many starters on this team were undrafted free agents.Using a 3rd round pick is a big deal
And that's not what I'm suggesting. All teams choose their starters based on meritocracy. If that is your statement then you and I have literally no disagreements at all.This is so wrong it hurts to read it. If you really believe this, you have no idea how Carroll and company do things in Seattle. Playing football for the Seahawks is an absolute meritocracy. Its why so many starters on this team were undrafted free agents.
Sure, Prosise might blow up and have a great season, but as far as his playing time goes it has nothing at all to do with his draft position.
That's pretty much true for any team. The draft-stock thing is something that is extremely overplayed by fans. Sure, it might get you an edge on the deptch chart on day one of OTAs, but that changes REAL quick.This is so wrong it hurts to read it. If you really believe this, you have no idea how Carroll and company do things in Seattle. Playing football for the Seahawks is an absolute meritocracy. Its why so many starters on this team were undrafted free agents.
Sure, Prosise might blow up and have a great season, but as far as his playing time goes it has nothing at all to do with his draft position.
I get what you're saying and agree that the Seahawks don't want to pigeon-hole their players to a defined role. I think Rawls may be OK enough in the passing game to likewise keep the defenses guessing, and play-action could be a real weapon with him on the field. Each player has their strengths and Seattle should be the better for it. Hopefully both can stay healthy.This is Wilson's show to create. They'll sprinkle in enough runs to try and keep the defense honest but even if they don't they are OK with it. Prosise is a real threat in the passing game but is OK enough as a runner to keep defenses guessing. I think he plays a lot. They don't want Rawls in there to telegraph a run and Prosise in there just on passing downs.. If game script calls to pound it doesn't look like Prosise is the runner to do that
Actually it was just about 2 weeks ago when Carrol said they were keeping the position manned until Rawls gets back at 100% (which he said he wasnt at) and it would be his.Wasn't CMike the starter last Sunday? I've learned to ignore when a coach says so and so is the starting rb. Not saying Prosise won't lead the backfield for most of the game and actually think he will with Rawls just coming back, but I just take it with a grain of salt when a coach says that.