rockaction
Footballguy
Saddened successes are the most tragic sometimes, I guess.
Us supporters will miss you, fly.
Bazinga! is a good cat, too, IMO.
What happened that this needed to be moderated all of a sudden? This was fun.
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WR Josh Gordon, KC (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
Us supporters will miss you, fly.
Bazinga! is a good cat, too, IMO.
What happened that this needed to be moderated all of a sudden? This was fun.
Wrong. Sorry but this is a thread on Josh Gordon - it's a lot bigger than you.
You can be part of it if you can be cool and keep it on Football. If not, then we understand.
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Questions I've got (and that was mentioned before) - how much do you guys think Gronkowski out affected Gordon?
More importantly, assuming Gronkowski will be back, how do you see Gordon going forward?
What's the current "worry level" about him keeping his off the field stuff in line?
I've written a lot about how I'm pulling for him. Unfortunately, addiction is something I'm not unfamiliar with. So good to see him succeeding.
More importantly, assuming Gronkowski will be back, how do you see Gordon going forward?
What's the current "worry level" about him keeping his off the field stuff in line?
I've written a lot about how I'm pulling for him. Unfortunately, addiction is something I'm not unfamiliar with. So good to see him succeeding.
rockaction
Footballguy
1) After having drafted Gronk in the second and watching his usage, I just think Gordon got up to speed with the offense recently. Gronk is being used differently than in years past, I think. Staying more at home to block, actually.
2) Gordon going forward trends up by all accounts. Brady loves his deep skills, as far as deep skills go with the Pats.
3) Very worried. Not sure anything but a complete life change will heal him. I also know addiction intimately and am always concerned for anyone that stays in the same area or profession that enabled them.
I'm also thrilled to be watching this.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
1. Minimal. May shifted a couple of targets his way? Of course those Gronk targets could have been Patterson runs. Personally think Michal out had a bigger impact on how the touches were distributed which may have favored Gordon.
2. Don't think it make much of a difference. Gronk got old in a hurry. Really don't understand how Gonzo and Gates kept going for years and Gronk just broke down.
3. Short term I feel pretty good. It's the offseason that worries me.
4th&inches
Footballguy
- I honestly don't think Gronk being out affected Gordon's production. It seems that whenever Gronk is out, it's Edelman that is the beneficiary of those targets over the middle
- I see Gordon as a Low WR2 floor each week with the potential to get into that WR1 with 1-2 big plays (which definitely seem possible each week).
- in years past my worry level was actually pretty high... but for some reason (the Belichick effect, Brady taking under his wing, actual growth in Gordon, etc...) I actually believe his off the field antics (aside from the late-to-meetings thing possibly) are in the rearview.
Now, as you mention above, addiction is not just a "i've beat it" type of thing and a relapse is always possible. That being said, it seems like the support system in NE along with his own focus on sobriety have been a positive impact thus far and I hope it keeps up.
This is what I'm telling you to drop.Bazinga! said:
FWIW, for the TDs, it's good to use a decimal for how good you feel about a TD. In other words, .5 TD would be you think he's got a 50% chance score a TD. Gives a much better indication of your projection compared to a 1 or 0.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I would agree with you when using projections to compare v. other WRs. In this case in a universe consisting of just projecting one player, I think drawing a line in the sand on the TD is very useful. Bazinga! has been dead on this entire year.
For sure. If you want to draw a line, go with the full "1.0" That's great. I'm saying it's a lot more nuanced to use percentage and gives the reader a better indication of what you really feel.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Agree - especially since there’s always >0% chance of a TD any given Sunday.
Predicting or projecting 0% chance of a TD is inaccurate off the bat unless the player is inactive.
Dizzy
Footballguy
How much do you guys think Gronkowski out affected Gordon?Joe Bryant said:
Not much. Pats already traded Gronk once this year... this (latest) injury seems like something that will haunt him all season. I think The Gronk has been relegated to Plan B at this point.
More importantly, assuming Gronkowski will be back, how do you see Gordon going forward?
I think he gets stronger every week. I think we'll see Brady-to-Gordon at it's best after their bye week... this assuming the hammy is 100% by then.
What's the current "worry level" about him keeping his off the field stuff in line?
None at all. Hoping that working towards a Super Bowl run instead of punching a clock for a punching bag franchise has had a life-changing effect.
I've written a lot about how I'm pulling for him. Unfortunately, addiction is something I'm not unfamiliar with. So good to see him succeeding.
Agreed. Looks like he's having fun to me. Brady and BB obviously jazzed to see him doing well. Honestly my bigger concern is Brady's deep ball... hasn't looked good IMO. Maybe still just a timing issue. We'll see.
Any of you New England insiders have any more insight on the Ian Rapoport report from last week about Gordon would miss time that turned out to be wrong?
Any more fall out or insight into that?
Any more fall out or insight into that?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is spot on - even that 50 yard TD was just a ball tnat was tossed ~20 yards downfield on a lob over a defender who wasn’t remotely in position to make a play. Most of that was YAC.
Honeslty I would temper my excitement if I were a Gordon owner - from the last two games he’s not been that difficult to cover. So maybe stating the obvious but against good defenses he’s going to struggle mightily. He doesn’t look like a guy who can beat quality DBs in coverage. And so JG’s value is reliant upon getting behind a secondary - where Brady has struggled mightily to throw the ball with accuracy / velocity.
Just an observation - I could be wrong.
LargeMouthBass
Footballguy
Gronk is a nonfactor this year. Whether it's due to his injury or not but he's just not the same player. Yeah yeah yeah, double coverage blah blah blah. Gronk always gets double coverage.Joe Bryant said:
Edited the title to reflect the content better.
One thing I'm trying to do is make the forum more accessible for new people. That means less "inside" stuff. I edited the title to better reflect the content.
One thing I'm trying to do is make the forum more accessible for new people. That means less "inside" stuff. I edited the title to better reflect the content.
rockaction
Footballguy
It's true, Joe. It's always nice, as a new guy, to know what's going on. I totally agree this took a left turn, and it was fun for us, but maybe not to a newcomer. So good stuff. I don't want to sound obsequious, but this was a good title change. It is about Josh and everything about him. One can't deny it.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
1.) I really do think Gordon did benefit without Gronk's presence on the field. Think Gronk as Jupiter and Gordon as potential Saturn, causing gravitational effect with increased defensive attention. Brady is always the guy who likes to pass to dependable receiver who can get him tough yards and another set of downs.Joe Bryant said:
2.) Providing Gronk returns (dont think he'll ever be fully healthy... I mean have you seen played vs. Bills when he appeared to be old and slow), Gordon should see his target bit more from Brady. Keep in mind that Brady/Gordon connection <<<<<<< Brady/Gronk due to years of experience playing together.
3.) The risk on Gordon's off-field is still high and we all know that one more strike, he'll be banned for another year (or rest of his career). Gordon knows he needs this and knows he couldn't end up in a better structured environment like Patriots.
Agreed on magnitude of addiction, which can be difficult to overcome especially when starting drug abuse at very young age. I guess there is a little part of my optimism in Gordon on taking advantage of working with Brady to gain access to his body coach Alex Guerrero.
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You guys are killing it with thoughtful takes. Thanks for the quality discussion.
BoltNlava
Footballguy
Thanks. Has this been happening or are you saying you hope it happens? I think it would be a positive but I know Belichick seemed not too in love with the guys spending too much time with Guerrero.
GB's secondary is trash. Not only that, how many defensive guys did they lose to injury/ejected last night? I root for Gordon, but it was a soft matchup for him last night especially with Gronkowski out. I don't think he's back to his peak talent quite yet.
It feels like @ Titans next week will be a dud. My guess is Vrabel is going to run the ball and control the clock exactly like the Lions did.
It feels like @ Titans next week will be a dud. My guess is Vrabel is going to run the ball and control the clock exactly like the Lions did.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
Like I said... I'm bit optimistic for this to happen. Again, I cannot make ascertain Gordon's constant struggle with addiction and I like to think that he knows he has everything to lose if failing another drug test.
About Belichick's not-so-obvious issue with Guerrero, I can understand his rational thinking on wanting his team's medical and training staff to tend his players' health. However, he does recognize that each player has the right for independent check. Beside, he has to be able to recognize Brady's longevity and continued excellency in his craft to sustain his team's overall success. Why else did he trade away Garoppolo last year.
Yeah, despite the good numbers, he looked kind of slow and clumsy to me. Big and strong and can win some 50/50s, but don't see a lot of separation. The last TD was nice but that DB totally whiffed on the tackle. Plus, as you stated, GB was down to their back ups in the secondary.
However, he got 10 targets and Belichick was all over him with congrats after the TD, which I don't remember seeing with other players. He is definitely set up to succeed if he keeps it together off the field.
That is a good point about BB. Rarely see that type of positive emotion out of him especially in a regular season game. Brady raved about him too.
Thanks you said, "I guess there is a little part of my optimism in Gordon on taking advantage of working with Brady to gain access to his body coach Alex Guerrero." I was hoping you meant Gordon was already working with Guerrero and you were optimistic about it.
It'll be interesting to see for sure.
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Joe Bryant said:
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
This is true. Exactly why he was struggling in Cleveland without his sponsor. I think NE has addressed this issue. They have an in house "character/life" coach that we know is working with JG 24/7. JG is being treated like family.
JG always looks like that on film. He looks slow and awkward almost. He isn't though. He has long strides with quick strong hands. A unique physical specimen. We have seen flashes of Flash.
The DB whiffed for the same reasons the DBs whiffed a couple weeks earlier when he broke his long run and almost scored. The same reasons DBs whiffed before - he is too big for most DBs to tackle alone. And then you saw him run away from the Safeties. They underestimated his balance, speed and strength. And if you look at JGs career (onfield), that seems par for the course over most of it. JG also has shown the ability to split defenders because of his late move to catch the ball, his jumping ability and the extension of his arms/hands. We haven't seen him used effectively as a red zone threat yet, but he will be used that way eventually.
I think Gronk being out may have affected the outside run game more than the passing game against GB. I think Gordons targets are going up (this week included) whether Gronk is out there or not. If anything, the two of them out there together put pressure on the Safeties and give BB the ability to split the field. So, better WITH Gronk.Joe Bryant said:
The worry isn't going to be during the season. They have him on 24-7 structure. It is the off season. Especially if/after Gordon has any playoff success. Hopefully the celebration and aftermath will not be too much for him. He can't even have a beer. I would say that if he goes back to Gainesville in the offseason, that is probably a good thing.Joe Bryant said:
I would agree with all of that except I doubt Vrabel gets that chance. The last time Tennessee beat New England was 2002. The Patriots have blown them out the past 5 meetings by more than 2 TDs (including earlier this year (Jan 13, 2018) 35 to 14). I don't think Tennessee has the horses on a short week to beat NE. But who really knows?
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
Even though I cannot even fathom the addicts' feeling especially with constant struggle to stay sober throughout every single day, the hope is to have a constant stability to ensure necessary support.
This is why I'm glad to see Gordon ending up in Patriots with structured environment, demanding everyone to work constantly. I can understand their pressure to win at all cost is very high but at least they are better organization than disorder and chaotic in Cleveland (cycling head coaches and GM with multiple directions).
Vrabel is new and a Belichick product. I would think he would look at what Patricia and the Lions did early this year to hold NE to 10 points. 33 rushing carries led to 39 minutes of possession and most importantly kept the Patriots offense off the field. I think they can do that with Lewis and Henry. Belichick is usually happy to concede runs so as long as their defense doesn't give up a big passing play.Hairy Snowman said:
So, I don't think I put much weight in their historical series and results.
And if I did look at trends, I think the last nine Patriots games before the bye they have won by an average of three TDs lol.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
Look, I agree that the way to beat the Pats is to be able to run on them. I don't think that BB thought that Patricia would be able to mount a rushing attack, so I believe the defensive focus was elsewhere. The Titans are almost built the opposite. I don't see the Titans being able to go over the top like Detroit was capable of.
I do put a little faith in historical runs. Florida Gators has beaten Tennessee Vols I don't know how many time in a row. Sometimes, because of the run, the Vols actually beat themselves. Historical runs sometimes have a basis in emotion. New England has owned Tennessee for 15 years. They beat them bad this past January.
And yes, BB does well going into byes.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I mentioned pages and pages ago that if ever BB had something to prove, it would be that he made the right call on benching Malcolm Butler for the Super Bowl. Now NE gets the Titans and Butler has been ripe for the pickings so far this year. PFF has him ranked as the #82 CB in the league so far. If the Titans have Butler covering Gordon, I would expect his best outing of the year.
BTW, former Patriot and current Titan Logan Ryan comes in ranked as the #29 CB. For New England, Stephon Gilmore is ranked as the #5 CB and Jason McCourty as the #9 CB on the season so far.
BTW, former Patriot and current Titan Logan Ryan comes in ranked as the #29 CB. For New England, Stephon Gilmore is ranked as the #5 CB and Jason McCourty as the #9 CB on the season so far.
rockaction
Footballguy
Guy is averaging about -- about -- 9.5 points standard since Indianapolis.
Not bad numbers for anyone, really, and trends look up for him.
Not bad numbers for anyone, really, and trends look up for him.
rockaction
Footballguy
BoltNlava
Footballguy
I can't remember? C'mon RA...Be EXCELLENT!
We all can't be witty and fun with the sword of Damocles...
I just saw a tweet that Titans have given up the fewest TDs in the league (11 passing, 3 rushing) but 7 of them have been on Butler
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
"Josh Gordon (hamstring) has been removed from the Patriots' injury report.
It's the first time Gordon hasn't been listed on the injury report since his acquisition from the Browns, suggesting he's at 100% heading into Week 10 against the Titans. Coming off 130 yards and a score, Gordon is a WR2. "
Uh oh. Someone is completely healthy again....
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8282/josh-gordon
It's the first time Gordon hasn't been listed on the injury report since his acquisition from the Browns, suggesting he's at 100% heading into Week 10 against the Titans. Coming off 130 yards and a score, Gordon is a WR2. "
Uh oh. Someone is completely healthy again....
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8282/josh-gordon
Dizzy
Footballguy
So this is for non-standard scoring? Would that be 1.8 points for 30% of a TD?Bazinga! said:
Was this after he was removed from the INJ report... because he can fall further forward now with stronger hammy's... probably good for 75 or 75.5 total yards.
Unless he dislocates his fingers again. That did cost him a TD catch last week... which you obviously pre-adjusted your predictions for in week 9, along with the inability for Tom Brady to get the ball out front on that deep shot.
What kind of unforeseen forces will hold him to your projected totals on Sunday?
Sorry. This thread needed a bump. 400+ pages of white noise while the guy was struggling to get his life on track, and now that he's a weekly fixture in the game plan for the Patriots the spreaders of Shark Poo have moved on?
Dizzy
Footballguy
I feel like Bryan Cranston in Little Miss Sunshine... "It's not your 9-Step Program Bazinnga!"
