bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Iirc 3cone is more predictive of rb success....wrs not so much.....Is this an assumption? Data doesnt back this up. He has a better 3 cone than any of the other top wr prospects, by a lot actually
Iirc 3cone is more predictive of rb success....wrs not so much.....Is this an assumption? Data doesnt back this up. He has a better 3 cone than any of the other top wr prospects, by a lot actually
I was only addressing the comment that he was stiff and not limber, which appears to just be false. regardless of whether or not its a success indicator.Iirc 3cone is more predictive of rb success....wrs not so much.....
Drew brees can hide warts...sometimes dyno players over think things.3 cone times
Sutton 6.57
Treadwell, 7.05
Ridely, 6.88
Moore, 6.95
Kirk, 7.09
Washington, 7.11
Michael Thomas, 6.80
I am getting a bit of a Michael Thomas vibe from sutton lately. Most dynasty guys were pretty low on MT compared to the other guys in his class. I feel like athletically they might be similar.
True about Brees, and dyno circles.Drew brees can hide warts...sometimes dyno players over think things.
Thats 3 cone is insane for sutton......almost makes me think its an error.
Taking a few steps then going around a cone is not the same as a 10 yard dig at full speed.I was only addressing the comment that he was stiff and not limber, which appears to just be false. regardless of whether or not its a success indicator.
Those silly combine test creators...Taking a few steps then going around a cone is not the same as a 10 yard dig at full speed.
Yeah, because every receiver who's done a great 3 cone drill ends up a stud. And Sutton even did better than Antonio Brown.Those silly combine test creators...
Go do your 3 cone time and post it. It’s really easy, and shows nothing about explosiveness, short area burst, agility, or change of direction. Anyone can hit 7 seconds. Honestly a 10 yd dig is probably easier. Take a few steps, turn left or right. Qb is the easiest, few steps backward and throw it.Taking a few steps then going around a cone is not the same as a 10 yard dig at full speed.
Taking a few steps then going around a cone is not the same as a 10 yard dig at full speed.
Whats the success rate for your patented "sitting on the couch and guessing" method?Yeah, because every receiver who's done a great 3 cone drill ends up a stud. And Sutton even did better than Antonio Brown.
There's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.Go do your 3 cone time and post it. It’s really easy, and shows nothing about explosiveness, short area burst, agility, or change of direction. Anyone can hit 7 seconds. Honestly a 10 yd dig is probably easier. Take a few steps, turn left or right. Qb is the easiest, few steps backward and throw it.
What does “he’s stiff” mean, exactly? He keeps his arms by his sides when he runs or something?
I'd rather make evaluations from my couch than the high horse you're sitting on.no nerve struck
If you wanna beat your head against the wall making evaluations from your couch that arent accurate, have at it. Was just trying to help by pointing out some data that conflicts with your observations. Maybe try a bigger TV?
You’re comparing 6’ 195 Lbs to a 6’3” 220 guy. And if you said “he’s stiff in the hips and doesn’t make quick cuts on digs” then fine. He doesn’t get his hips around on a route, I’ll take that as observation and maybe I’ll go back and see if I’m missing something (I probably will anyway in case I move into position to draft him). It’s obvious you don’t put any stock in 3 cone time based on this thread and the freeman thread. That’s fine, I’m wrong on guys too, and that’s the game. I don’t think he’s a sure thing, but he checks a lot of boxes for me. I probably could have been a bit more cordial on the rebuke though, admittedly.There's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.
Who wants to make evals from a horse, that just sounds uncomfortable and unrealistic. Did you see this on tv?I'd rather make evaluations from my couch than the high horse you're sitting on.
Oh i know i was watching the combine and said damn......True about Brees, and dyno circles.
It very well could be a mistake, but here is the link;
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/courtland-sutton?id=32462018-0002-5600-18de-e88c26b17c1c
Occasionally stiff?There's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.
There's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.
Moore has a lot more fluidity. One step then cut. The double move he makes in the last video is all I needed to see from him.Occasionally stiff?
moores vertical route probably pass interference in the nfl. Nice breakdown of a few routes here by Sutton and Moore. Not the whole story by any means.
Sutton has pretty decent size, so I'm not saying he won't be a good receiver in the NFL. But (imo) it won't be because he's getting a lot of separation.Wow. Great comparison. Very similar players there. Okay, now go watch Sutton make catches with a guy literally hanging on him before the ball gets there - which he did enough to know it isn’t a fluke - and then show me Diggs and Hill doing the same thing.
Hard to believe that the NFL runs drills at the combine that have no value. Let me guess, you think the gauntlet is useless too because there’s no D and a guy can only catch one football on any given route in a game.
Sutton has pretty decent size, so I'm not saying he won't be a good receiver in the NFL. But (imo) it won't be because he's getting a lot of separation.
He bails his qb out constantly. He adjusts to poorly thrown balls and just wins. He’s like a poor mans mike Evans, bailing out manziel time and again in college. No, he’s not golden Tate, Diggs, or reek. He has some work to do, but he does a lot well. I don’t think he’ll be running crossing routes out of the slot either. I agree he sometimes uses extra motions or doesn’t get off his defender but he also just simply gets the ball unless you’re right up his butt. And if you’re riding him that close he has the speed/size to win downfield as well.Moore has a lot more fluidity. One step then cut.The speed cut he makes in the last video is all I needed to see from him.
Sutton on the other hand take a few steps to make the same move. Not really seeing him sink his hips.
I just posted that like 3 posts back.
So you can use google and copy/paste a url?
i feel like there is a drill designed to make you bend at the hips a lot, cant remember what its called thoThere's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.
So you can use google and copy/paste a url?
Actually, that video was already posted.
For the record, I'm not really down on the guy. Your statements above are all reasons to like him. Only he doesn't sink his hips well enough to make sharp cuts for getting open all the time in the NFL.He bails his qb out constantly. He adjusts to poorly thrown balls and just wins. He’s like a poor mans mike Evans, bailing out manziel time and again in college. No, he’s not golden Tate, Diggs, or reek. He has some work to do, but he does a lot well. I don’t think he’ll be running crossing routes out of the slot either. I agree he sometimes uses extra motions or doesn’t get off his defender but he also just simply gets the ball unless you’re right up his butt. And if you’re riding him that close he has the speed/size to win downfield as well.
Michael Kist thinks he'll be good. That doesn't tarnish my position.Yep, video that tarnishes your position more than a little - not that you’d ever admit it.
IDK for sure either. I would assume, if there was a link to those numbers and some sort of area where the player would win, it would be on in or out breaking routes, near the sideline, timing routes where the throw is out before the player has changed direction. I would also assume that doing well on some sort of burst or explosive movement test would coincide with this, if true.Oh i know i was watching the combine and said damn......
Is there a correlation between 3 cone & sucess for a wr....didnt seem like it was......i could be wrong
I sorta agree with the “MT vibe” when it comes to Sutton right now. But I believe MT was a much better technician of the game (route runner, great hands) during his draft year.3 cone times
Sutton 6.57
Treadwell, 7.05
Ridely, 6.88
Moore, 6.95
Kirk, 7.09
Washington, 7.11
Michael Thomas, 6.80
I am getting a bit of a Michael Thomas vibe from sutton lately. Most dynasty guys were pretty low on MT compared to the other guys in his class. I feel like athletically they might be similar.
I think its just a perfect storm really of a guy with major talent and an elite qb that is able to make the most of his skill sets. I think he wouldve ended up being a good wr still on another team, it wouldve just likely taken a little longer for him to develop.I sorta agree with the “MT vibe” when it comes to Sutton right now. But I believe MT was a much better technician of the game (route runner, great hands) during his draft year.
So is MT as good as we think? Or is it because of Brees?
Heh I have been saying DGB so often latelysteelers1080 said:Sutton reminds me of Dorial Green-Beckham (not off the field). He's tall, good at contested catches, was wide open a lot in college against poor secondaries, and isn't a great route runner.
Sutton could definitely develop into a great WR, but he's been able to coast by on athleticism and size up til now. If he can improve his route running, and learn from Hopkins how to pass interfere without getting caught, he could become very good, very fast. He pushes off a lot because he doesn't have much separation at the top of routes. Hopkins does as well, but with subtle moves down near the hips. Hopkins and the CB are usually neck and neck, but right at the point of the catch he's able to shift them slightly and make the grab. Antonio Brown does this quite often as well. If Sutton can learn, he will be a great pick near the 1-2 turn.
Heh I have been saying DGB so often lately
I don't want any college player that can't run routes well. That's pride in their job also shows a result of work ethic or lack of. If they played WR in high school, then I really gotta wonder how come they can't run routes well after 7-8 years of doing so. Not the intricate stuff but simple things like awfully rounded corners and not knowing the plays. That's so basic.
I have never understood why DGB is out of the league. He is an elite talent, no doubt, with athleticism that few can match. He is a horrible learner and I understand that, but teams spend years developing WRs all the time. Why not him? "My Titans" spent 3-4 years on Tre McBride, I'd rather it have been DGB.
I liked this guy Turzilli. A great yes coach high effort type, 6-4 and fastest 40 of tall WRs that year. He did nothing at Rutgers and was a total project. He's still in the league, now with the Giants.
5th WRs do almost nothing and 6th WRs (if a team has one) do even less. What are they in for 25 plays a year? I know us FFers want every WR to have production and be this n that but truthfully, I like developmental types "at the end of the bench."
Anywho....see where my mind went? There's no way I'd draft Sutton if I were a GM.
This year also offers a change in the evolution of the game. This is the first year there are many DBs that are tall. The huge WRs have always towered over DBs. Finally things are "catching up." We'll have to see how it plays out, but I am curious. I want my Titans to draft Tre Flowers from OK State. 6-3 and a fine safety in the Big 12. They don't have a pressing need with Cyp and Byard. (He's a 6th 7th round projection.) Can we admit that there are third and longs and long and goal situations where we know a lob or deep pass is coming? I'd love a fast tall guy going in. Cyp's hard nosed tackling isn't even really needed in that situation either.
Jeremy Boykins was 6-2 last year and 6-1 this year, go figure. Three or four star recruit, I forget. All that was was athleticism, great athlete little production. I enjoyed him in preseason. He played CB and S. Flew all over the place, jumped as high as you can imagine, tried to swat anything he could. He got cut, went to the Falcons, and returned. I'm glad he's back. Let's see what year two brings. If not now, put him on the PS again, and see in year three.
There is definitely a place for superb athletes but I think NFL teams waste way too much time (and cost themselves jobs) not basing things on production
Not exactly, not yet. He hasn't played in the NFL. I think that could be the result in the NFL.Wait, am I reading this right? That you think Sutton wasn’t productive enough and was just a superb athlete posing as a WR?
I just googled, no it wasn't. That tells ya something.
you'll have to ask Robin FickerWhat meaningful something does it tell us?
you'll have to ask Robin Ficker
I would argue that one reason Sutton isn't a polished route runner was that he was a great athlete in a pool of mediocre athletes. He was able to get by on size and speed and didn't need to hone his craft. In the NFL, everyone is a great athlete, so that will no longer be a huge advantage. If he can't run more crisp routes then he's no better than Cordarelle Patterson or Dorial Green Beckham.Wait, am I reading this right? That you think Sutton wasn’t productive enough and was just a superb athlete posing as a WR?
Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reports that the Dallas Cowboys do not consider SMU WR Courtland Sutton to be a first-round talent.
That sound you hear is a million mock drafts dying at the same time. The Cowboys and Sutton were viewed as realistic dance partners the minute the team released Dez Bryant earlier this month, as the 6-foot-3, 218-pound SMU standout offers a similar big-bodied, physical game. It's possible that the assumption that Dallas was looking for a clone of Bryant was a touch off to begin with, though Pauline does hear that they would like the wideout at a second-round price if they don't select a receiver with the No. 19 selection. We would augment all this action by noting that the Cowboys did bring Sutton in for an official predraft visit on Wednesday, the last day prospects could be hosted for such trips.
Source: Draft Analyst
Apr 20 - 1:11 PM
I heard this on the radio and Garrett said he would NOT draft Sutton. Period.
Pro day up close in drills and privately, dallas day(I think, can't recall exactly), and a personal interview
Just after the interview the host said something like wow after spending that much time, they won't draft him at all. Interesting. Then they discussed the negative side to spending a lot of time with players like it doesn't always show someone they're going to draft but maybe reasons they won't draft a guy.
This was not solely he won't pick him in the first.
I think Jerry's boy, Stephen Jones, drafts for them. He'll be on the radio a bunch this week. I guess his opinion matters more than Jason's and Jason could have been speaking out of turn. We'll see.
Jerry Jones has been relatively silent this draft.
It could be. He was respectful of Sutton not to insult him and shifted Qs to Bryant as a rookie. I found him to be sincere but that's a fair point, it could be some scheming or deceptionBronco Billy said:Or it could be that this is the pre-draft lying period for teams. There’s very little that can be taken for fact coming from teams’ management at this time of year.
This. There’s simply no incentive for a team like Dallas to currently indicate that they aren’t drafting a player at this stage. This screams to me more that there’s a greater chance they do like him than that they absolutely wouldn’t draft him.Bronco Billy said:Or it could be that this is the pre-draft lying period for teams. There’s very little that can be taken for fact coming from teams’ management at this time of year.
It could be. He was respectful of Sutton not to insult him and shifted Qs to Bryant as a rookie. I found him to be sincere but that's a fair point, it could be some scheming or deception