The (new) urbanist, traditional walkable neighborhood, TOD & Place-Based Econ Dev thread: Off to APA then LOCUS - next month CNU (1 Viewer)

[belljr]

I grew up in a small town

It sucked

 

[belljr]

And no idea what you guys are actually talking about....Is this like a city in the suburbs?

 

[wikkidpissah]

I grew up in a small town

It sucked

we need little pink houses for you & me

 

[Nugget]

How do you feel about roundabouts as traffic control measures?

 

[The General]

(where's that)

Here

About 15 minutes north of downtown Seattle. Decent neighborhood, somewhat affordable houses by Seattle standards. Tons of good bars and restaurants within 5 mile radius. Easyish to get to the east side where there are jobs, easy to get to downtown where there are tons.

Bikeable and walkable but can always get better. 

Very interesting work improving cities livability. 

 

[Slapdash]

:in:

Bought my townhome in Charlotte 4.5 years ago in anticipation of a light rail stop being built less than five minutes away (walking).  Should finally open up in August.  That said, not sure I will ever feel comfortable biking on the city streets with the way people drive.

 

[dgreen]

And no idea what you guys are actually talking about....Is this like a city in the suburbs?

What part? We are talking all sorts of things. 

 

[The General]

:in:

Bought my townhome in Charlotte 4.5 years ago in anticipation of a light rail stop being built less than five minutes away (walking).  Should finally open up in August.  That said, not sure I will ever feel comfortable biking on the city streets with the way people drive.

Just gotta go for it. There is almost always a way to find a better side steet to ride on. 

Peraonally, when I ride to work, the store, bar, etc always feel better when I get back.

 

[BassNBrew]

Just gotta go for it. There is almost always a way to find a better side steet to ride on. 

Peraonally, when I ride to work, the store, bar, etc always feel better when I get back.

Here you're not necessarily going to make it back.

 

[BassNBrew]

:in:

Bought my townhome in Charlotte 4.5 years ago in anticipation of a light rail stop being built less than five minutes away (walking).  Should finally open up in August.  That said, not sure I will ever feel comfortable biking on the city streets with the way people drive.

Slap - Have you been to Davidson lately?  Downtown is flooded with new shop and restaurants.  I'm over by the interstate about a mile away and that area is developing the same way.  Getting some medical and other employment ops too.  Of course now that were in the Koya-lite utopia, real estates prices have gone up 50% in two years and only the professionals can afford to live here.  Little lots that a walkable to downtown now going for $150+ and two berm townhouse are over $200.  Wish I'd bought several for about have that price in '08.

 

[bentley]

We're building a new corporate HQ in this neighborhood. Does that count? Currently working with a university researcher to see if we can assess work time activity among employees before and after the move to see whether working in such an environment leads to more activity.

 

[The General]

Here you're not necessarily going to make it back.

Grab a helmet, slap some lights on your bike, and stake your claim on the road.

 

[BassNBrew]

Grab a helmet, slap some lights on your bike, and stake your claim on the road.

Know several people that did that.  One's dead, another was in the hospital for 6 months, two others had their triathlon careers ended.

 

[The General]

Know several people that did that.  One's dead, another was in the hospital for 6 months, two others had their triathlon careers ended.

You guys have a bunch of murders on the roads there. Have ridden in an urban setting for 25 years, somebody of those exclusively on a bike. 

Only had 2 notable wrecks. One was my fault.

 

[Slapdash]

Slap - Have you been to Davidson lately?  Downtown is flooded with new shop and restaurants.  I'm over by the interstate about a mile away and that area is developing the same way.  Getting some medical and other employment ops too.  Of course now that were in the Koya-lite utopia, real estates prices have gone up 50% in two years and only the professionals can afford to live here.  Little lots that a walkable to downtown now going for $150+ and two berm townhouse are over $200.  Wish I'd bought several for about have that price in '08.

Haven't been up there in a while, but have been meaning to.  I'll probably only work Uptown and my wife finally got a job in Hearst Tower (much better than commuting from NoDa to Ballentyne daily).  Hoping we can get down to one car in the next couple of years.

Would be great to find a lot to build on, but prices are crazy and we don't need more room.

 

[Slapdash]

You guys have a bunch of murders on the roads there. Have ridden in an urban setting for 25 years, somebody of those exclusively on a bike. 

Only had 2 notable wrecks. One was my fault.

Drivers in the south east just do such stupid ####.  There was a bike put up as a memorial/reminder at an intersection where a biker was killed a couple miles away.  Within a week, that bike had been hit by another car.

 

[boots11234]

What point are you trying to make with the "lefty" label?

Mostly tongue in cheek but I think this type of living is geared more towards city dwellers. Who tend to be more liberal.  

i think it would be a bit more difficult to convince conservative folks in this style of living. 

I think it's great and if it offered what I was looking for I'd move there no problem. 

 

[Christo]

Old Urbanists was the name of my Chicago tribute band

You're not alone

 

[The General]

Drivers in the south east just do such stupid ####.  There was a bike put up as a memorial/reminder at an intersection where a biker was killed a couple miles away.  Within a week, that bike had been hit by another car.

Damn. That sucks. It's not worth dying over but riding a bike around town is a small thing I look forward to often. Good luck down there.

 

[Koya]

How do you feel about roundabouts as traffic control measures?

Overrated and underrated.

Not even kidding.  It's contextually appropriate, and I'm not a traffic engineer but my experience is they work better at the edges of an urban setting and a transition from urban to suburban as they are much better at managing traffic flow, it helps reduce accidents car to car and pedestrian because of no hard 90 degree turns, but are tough to navigate as pedestrians in a true urban setting. 

The realty is you WANT cars to go slow on a downtown walkable setting, and roundabouts help it move a bit faster. 

 

[nirad3]

Overrated and underrated.

Not even kidding.  It's contextually appropriate, and I'm not a traffic engineer but my experience is they work better at the edges of an urban setting and a transition from urban to suburban as they are much better at managing traffic flow, it helps reduce accidents car to car and pedestrian because of no hard 90 degree turns, but are tough to navigate as pedestrians in a true urban setting. 

The realty is you WANT cars to go slow on a downtown walkable setting, and roundabouts help it move a bit faster. 

Agreed - and can't talk about roundabouts without thinking about this

 

[Limp Ditka]

Overrated and underrated.

Not even kidding.  It's contextually appropriate, and I'm not a traffic engineer but my experience is they work better at the edges of an urban setting and a transition from urban to suburban as they are much better at managing traffic flow, it helps reduce accidents car to car and pedestrian because of no hard 90 degree turns, but are tough to navigate as pedestrians in a true urban setting. 

The realty is you WANT cars to go slow on a downtown walkable setting, and roundabouts help it move a bit faster. 

We have one by an elementary school / playground with a 12 foot statue in the middle of it. Arguably one off the dumber things I've seen.

 

[Koya]

:in:

Bought my townhome in Charlotte 4.5 years ago in anticipation of a light rail stop being built less than five minutes away (walking).  Should finally open up in August.  That said, not sure I will ever feel comfortable biking on the city streets with the way people drive.

I am part of the team working on planning and financing strategies for the light rail from Durham to Chapel Hill - there's a very active bike culture there and we are looking for ways by which figure development can help fund/finance infrastructure investments today which includes efforts to improve cycling and pedestrian options. 

The Charlotte light rail is such a resounding success - to think that McCrory was the champion behind it at the time is a bit crazy now. It's unfortunate that the state cut its funding match considering the success in Charlotte, but Politics be Politics. 

 

[Koya]

We have one by an elementary school / playground with a 12 foot statue in the middle of it. Arguably one off the dumber things I've seen.

Peeps love putting up stupid statues that no one will see in the middle of roundabouts. 

 

[BassNBrew]

Overrated and underrated.

Not even kidding.  It's contextually appropriate, and I'm not a traffic engineer but my experience is they work better at the edges of an urban setting and a transition from urban to suburban as they are much better at managing traffic flow, it helps reduce accidents car to car and pedestrian because of no hard 90 degree turns, but are tough to navigate as pedestrians in a true urban setting. 

The realty is you WANT cars to go slow on a downtown walkable setting, and roundabouts help it move a bit faster. 

Not to pedestrian friendly.  We even having flashing lights at the crossings and that doesn't stop drivers.  We've got a double lane (4 total) and it's a pain for the light traffic cross street to get into during morning traffic.

 

[BassNBrew]

Peeps love putting up stupid statues that no one will see in the middle of roundabouts. 

They went brick wall here. 

 

[kface]

How do you feel about roundabouts as traffic control measures?

Roundabouts are brilliant, more efficient, safer and more aesthetically pleasing

Although like Koya said you don't really want them in true urban settings.  There you want to use the shared space model

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2013/04/lots-cars-and-trucks-no-traffic-signs-or-lights-chaos-or-calm/5152/

 

[Slapdash]

I am part of the team working on planning and financing strategies for the light rail from Durham to Chapel Hill - there's a very active bike culture there and we are looking for ways by which figure development can help fund/finance infrastructure investments today which includes efforts to improve cycling and pedestrian options. 

The Charlotte light rail is such a resounding success - to think that McCrory was the champion behind it at the time is a bit crazy now. It's unfortunate that the state cut its funding match considering the success in Charlotte, but Politics be Politics. 

Does it make it easier to deal with a single entity like CharMeck vs crossing a few cities?  I've been told, though it predates my time in Charlotte, that the southern light rail was supposed to go down further into Pineville and then potentially into South Carolina but Pineville refused.

 

[Slapdash]

Also, are any of you guys on https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/?

 

[Sammy3469]

It's only a matter of time before Manhattan becomes car free - or at least private car free during many/most hours.  Simply put, cars are not designed for dense cities, and dense cities are not designed to handle that much auto traffic.  The auto is best to get from some place to another place... not to go down the block to pick up milk. 

I somehow doubt that actually happens unless they somehow come up with the umpteen billions needed to upgrade to subway system and I seriously doubt that happens anytime soon with the amount of money they are dumping into LGA and what looks like JFK.  Hey, but maybe we'll get lucky and Trump will decide it's a great place for the infrastructure money.  

 

[Buttonhook]

Overrated and underrated.

Not even kidding.  It's contextually appropriate, and I'm not a traffic engineer but my experience is they work better at the edges of an urban setting and a transition from urban to suburban as they are much better at managing traffic flow, it helps reduce accidents car to car and pedestrian because of no hard 90 degree turns, but are tough to navigate as pedestrians in a true urban setting. 

The realty is you WANT cars to go slow on a downtown walkable setting, and roundabouts help it move a bit faster. 

To clarify a few things, the accident rate does not necessarily drop when traditional intersections are converted to roundabouts, but the severity of the accidents are decreased, which is obviously an overall improvement.  There seems to be mixed data as to the overall improvement in pedestrian safety after the conversion happens, but studies show that pedestrians may avoid roundabouts because (1) they do not feel as safe as signalized intersections where you get a nice little light telling you when it's safe to cross, and (2) they often require a circuitous route to get to the other side, which pedestrians perceive as an inconvenience.  This is one of the many reasons roundabouts are not used in high pedestrian use areas (i.e. high-density urban settings). 

 

[wikkidpissah]

Grew up w rotaries in Boston. #### that noise!

 

[oso diablo]

hi koya, fan of your work here.

curious about the aspect of the quality of K-12 schools in the city core. that strikes me as the biggest hurdle around these parts for a long-term and more widespread renaissance of this type of development.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Apartment owner, operator, developer here. Black dot. 

 

[Koya]

Does it make it easier to deal with a single entity like CharMeck vs crossing a few cities?  I've been told, though it predates my time in Charlotte, that the southern light rail was supposed to go down further into Pineville and then potentially into South Carolina but Pineville refused.

I can tell speak to the details of Charlotte, but it's certainly less complex dealing with singular or limited agencies and municipalities. The former are tied to specific agendas and the latter focused on P/politics with each crossing over the further complicate the other.

im my experience the most important aspect is the presence of strong municipal will and leadership - that helps cut through the bull####, gives clear direction and directives to the agencies and results in a partnership approach that won't wilt at the first sign of public concern or agency push back

 

[Koya]

Apartment owner, operator, developer here. Black dot. 

Would love to chat! Involved in ULI at all? What is the general size/scope and markets for your projects?

 

[rodg12]

 to catch up later

 

[Koya]

hi koya, fan of your work here.

curious about the aspect of the quality of K-12 schools in the city core. that strikes me as the biggest hurdle around these parts for a long-term and more widespread renaissance of this type of development.

It is a hurdle, though not generally as much so today as in prior generations.  For one there is more school choice in many urban communities. Second, as professionals have returned to the city, they bring the financial capability to go the private school route. 

That said, especially with millennials (who by and large hve greater desire for urban living than past generations) now approaching having children of school age, there are forces that are simultaneously pushing some into the suburbs, where again it's not your parents burb but more urban focused with walkable mixed use nodes while others are improving public schooling as their kids age through elementary. 

 

[Workhorse]

Great thread Koya!

This is such a hot button topic down here in Atlanta. We moved from the suburbs back into a close-in bedroom community (Decatur) that has a lot of the amenities that people seek:  Good schools (which is rare inside the  285 perimeter) , decent access to the city center via car and MARTA, walkable/bicycle friendly, outstanding restaurant/bar scene. This is a rapidly gentrifying (yes, I'll use that word for all of it's connotations) area where many of the older, small bungalow homes are being torn down with 3,000-5,000 square foot homes built in their place.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed and many of the long-time African-American residents are being priced out since they can't afford the taxes on the escalating property values within the city.  Also, many of the teachers, police, firefighters, etc... who work in Decatur can't possibly afford to buy a home here anymore, which creates a terrible disconnect with the people they serve.

No easy solutions here in terms of real, "affordable housing":  Many of the apartment buildings are being sold to developers because the market is so white hot that it's hard to turn down the quick profits. Also, the population boom of folks like me with young kids has pushed the school system to the breaking point in terms of enrollment.  We need to find a way to keep the racial and socioeconomic diversity of this community intact, in the face of a massive rush to profit by developers and a high demand for this quality of life from folks (like me) who have the means to buy in at the top of the market.

How do you balance all of this?

 

[nirad3]

Already had a conversation with Koya (thanks!), but if anyone in this space may be looking for a 20+ year vet of the industry to assist with pre-acquisition due diligence, entitlements processing or land development/construction management, I'm your guy. 

Resume/bio/references available.

 

[mr roboto]

@Koya this may only be tangentially related, but your thoughts on light rail vs rapid bus?  Here there is immense pushback against a light rail line mainly because of its inflexibility. Meaning once track is built it can't be moved. Which I would imagine is great news for developers and RE placement but if, for example, companies move or commuting patterns shift bus service is way more flexible. 

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Will kick this off answering @BroncoFreak_2K3's question from my Moving to Dallas thread:

Thanks.  Yes, I know Andres - literally almost got into fisticuffs with his brough Doug - ERRRR Douglas. Have also done some, though minimal work with DPZ (Senen is great, and Marina Khoury is a no holds barred kick ### force of nature).

Long story short, I was speaking at the CNU congress 3 or so years ago, and was talking to someone about my issues with CNU's overly academic approach.  As a developer, I love the theory, but without implementation it's a worthless ivory tower there to stroke the ego's of Andres et al (who has had a profoundly positive impact on land use and design, but has not evolved as the market and the world, even, has caught up - it's in many ways no longer a New Urbanism.  It's urbanism.

ANYhoo, Im talking to someone about how to take it from the Ivory tower, not dilute the purpose of the congress, but expand the reach to interested developers and others who want to do great work - or even good work/development, as opposed to strip center suburban crap.  DougLAS turns around on his high horse and starts pontificating about "if WE (the CNU) catered to people like YOU, then people like ME would have no desire to even come here!"

I was aghast.  So obvious it was about ego and the "concept of it all" without any consideration to actually implement, and without implemention you don't positively effect people's lives.  He goes ... "have you even READ MY BOOK!!!" to which I responded... no, but I am here, talking with you, interested in learning and wanting to embrace the concepts of New Urbanism to make great things actually happen. 

Well, he huffs and puffs and goes on about all the great master plans and all he has done, and I respond something like a master plan without implementation is worthless, and sometimes does more harm than good and went on with the real kicker.... 

"Tell me DougLAS, how many JOBS have you created through these plans"

At that point his head almost explodes and that comment brought Andres into the heated discussion as he was apparently right behind us listening.  

After the heat of the intellectual battle subsided a little, Andres did give me a hug and seemed to appreciate the debate, if not my position on it and "gained some respect" for me - which is a fairly underhanded compliment, but hey, it was fun. 

FYI, my partner has been a CNU board member for 8 years. It's a great organization, but their insular and overly academic approach really limits the good work they can do.  For that reason I focus far more on the Urban Land Institute, more localized efforts (I am on the board of the Real Estate Institute at Stony Brook) and folks focused on practice and implementation (also a board member of the Form Based Codes Institute, which is great since I couldn't write a code for my life, but as an urban - urban/suburban developer, recognize the value of a good zoning code and the terrible downside of a bad one).

There are a number of folks in the field on this board, curious to see who else we have. 

great story. I totally agree about the academic approach of CNU.  My ULI-MI group is much more hands on and very active at the local level than the CNU group.  Here in MI we are seeing much more of a movement at the local level of municipalities going with form-based codes.  The other big initiative here in Michigan is Placemaking 

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Would love to chat! Involved in ULI at all? What is the general size/scope and markets for your projects?

I am not in ULI currently. We own/manage 60+ communities encompassing 14,000+ units across the country.  We are about 50/50 market rate and affordable. 

 

[Koya]

I somehow doubt that actually happens unless they somehow come up with the umpteen billions needed to upgrade to subway system and I seriously doubt that happens anytime soon with the amount of money they are dumping into LGA and what looks like JFK.  Hey, but maybe we'll get lucky and Trump will decide it's a great place for the infrastructure money.  

I'm almost convinced it will happen. Just a matter of when,not if. 

 

[Koya]

Also, are any of you guys on https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/?

No but I will be now!

 

[Slapdash]

No but I will be now!

Oh man, right up your alley.  Although the Dallas forum is not active.

 

[Koya]

@Koya this may only be tangentially related, but your thoughts on light rail vs rapid bus?  Here there is immense pushback against a light rail line mainly because of its inflexibility. Meaning once track is built it can't be moved. Which I would imagine is great news for developers and RE placement but if, for example, companies move or commuting patterns shift bus service is way more flexible. 

The very reason you state for pushback is the exact reason why rail is generally preferred... the permanence of fixed rail provides the confidence for the market to make major investments.  The fact that BRT can be configured far more easily makes it difficult to garner the hundreds of millions (or Billion+) necessary to create a truly vibrant, active mixed use environment. 

That said, BRT has come a long way and much of the infrastructure is significant and could be considered more permanent and fixed, but there are almost not examples (may not be any, none I know of) where BRT has induced significant economic development while there are dozens, and historically hundreds of examples of rail doing so. There are, as I understand, examples of BRT driving development and done in a more "rail like" manner in Europe, so it's certainly possible... but as I'll detail below, social preferences factor in.

An added complicating factor for Bus Rapid Transit is the word "bus" - in the U.S., 98% of the time bus is considered a transportation mode of necessity, not choice. Namely, people who can't afford a car, or commuter rail.  It then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because Bus serves "poor people" and therefore the level of service and user experience is sub par... further eliminating possibility of broad use and acceptance of buses.

Again, with the newer technologies, some areas are overcoming this with modernized vehicles, wifi, beverage service and all that, but the cultural norm in the U.S. that "buses are for dirty poor people and not me" is still a strong factor. 

 

[Koya]

Great thread Koya!

This is such a hot button topic down here in Atlanta. We moved from the suburbs back into a close-in bedroom community (Decatur) that has a lot of the amenities that people seek:  Good schools (which is rare inside the  285 perimeter) , decent access to the city center via car and MARTA, walkable/bicycle friendly, outstanding restaurant/bar scene. This is a rapidly gentrifying (yes, I'll use that word for all of it's connotations) area where many of the older, small bungalow homes are being torn down with 3,000-5,000 square foot homes built in their place.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed and many of the long-time African-American residents are being priced out since they can't afford the taxes on the escalating property values within the city.  Also, many of the teachers, police, firefighters, etc... who work in Decatur can't possibly afford to buy a home here anymore, which creates a terrible disconnect with the people they serve.

No easy solutions here in terms of real, "affordable housing":  Many of the apartment buildings are being sold to developers because the market is so white hot that it's hard to turn down the quick profits. Also, the population boom of folks like me with young kids has pushed the school system to the breaking point in terms of enrollment.  We need to find a way to keep the racial and socioeconomic diversity of this community intact, in the face of a massive rush to profit by developers and a high demand for this quality of life from folks (like me) who have the means to buy in at the top of the market.

How do you balance all of this?

There is no one prescriptive answer, but my recommendation is think big... comprehensive and large scale development can tackle more global (neighborhood wide) issues than ad hoc one building at a time development. 

For one, the profit and tax revenue pie is bigger.  Second, by planning and developing an entire district, you can then build in affordable units in each building, eliminating the creation of "ghettos" of concentrated poverty... it then provides more cultural and economic access to those of lesser means as well.  In addition, if you are doing a wider scale development, a piece of each building's profit (public and private sector) can be shaved off to build amenities, parks, infrastructure (sewer, roads, train platforms) which in turn create far more value than the cost of investing in the real estate itself. This process is called "value capture" and is representative of the specific exercise / strategic consulting gig I am involved with on the Chapel Hill to Durham light rail line... finding ways for development to (1) help pay for the transit line itself (2) help pay for associated local infrastructure such as platforms, parking structures, walking and biking trails and (3) provide mechanisms to create more affordable housing.

Ideally, by using future profits to finance investments today, you then create a more socially integrated and equitable environment that results in a virtuous cycle of economic growth, less crime (though better placemaking along with provision of better housing and creation of economic opportunity) and overall improvement to quality of life across economic and social lines. 

 

[Foosball God]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on a depression of suburban housing prices as boomers are looking to downsize, but Millennials are looking to be more downtown.

I have some real concerns with the suburban market taking another dip in the near future (5 - 10 years), especially on the coasts and around mid and major metro areas.

 

[mr roboto]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on a depression of suburban housing prices as boomers are looking to downsize, but Millennials are looking to be more downtown.

I have some real concerns with the suburban market taking another dip in the near future (5 - 10 years), especially on the coasts and around mid and major metro areas.

 I've read a number of articles that show that suburban McMansions built in the late 80s to early 2000's are really struggling to sell.   Often they were built in car dominant far-flung suburbs and are generally very inefficient from an energy perspective as well as two large for younger buyers and, in my opinion, quite ugly. 

 First and second ring suburbs with post war housing stock tend to do quite well with younger buyers because they are much closer to the urban amenities and the homes are more reasonably sized and more simply design which fits the resurgence of the mid century aesthetic 

 It really comes down to how close the suburban development is to jobs and cultural or entertainment amenities.