FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Yet he continually ran WR screens and reverses to Jarius Wright and asked Cordarrelle Patterson to run crisp downfield routes and couldn't figure out why neither of the two was working.
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RB/WR Cordarrelle Patterson, PIT (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree with FreeBaGeL that Patterson was miscast as a X WR in both Musgrave and Norv Turners offesnes. I think he is better suited to play the Z or the slot. I think part of the reason Patterson was used as a X is because Jennings as the main receiver was used mostly in the slot or at flanker. So to get the best players on the field (in theory) and also in part because they needed to replace Jerome Simpson in that role but Jennings and Wright wouldn't.
I still think Norv Turner did a good job of adjusting after trying Patterson out at the X position didn't work.
Charles Johnson won the start at the X WR after the Vikings came out of the bye week and played on over 90% of the offensive snaps for the remaining six weeks of the season. For a player such as Johnson who was not even with the team until week five of the season to play this much says more to me about how bad Patterson was in the X than how good Johnson was playing it.
Week 11
Cordarralle Patterson 35os 74%
Greg Jennings 32os 68%
Charles Johnson 25os 53%
Jarius Wright 18os 38%
Adam Thielen 11os 23%
Week 12
Charles Johnson 66os 97%
Greg Jennings 61os 90%
Cordarralle Patterson 32os 47%
Jarius Wright 8os 12%
Adam Thielen 4os 6%
Week 13
Charles Johnson 47os 98%
Greg Jennings 38os 79%
Jarius Wright 28os 58%
Cordarralle Patterson 3os 6%
Adam Thielen 1os 2%
Week 14
Charles Johnson 58os 100%
Greg Jennings 52os 90%
Jarius Wright 35os 60%
Cordarralle Patterson 1os 2%
Adam Thielen 0os 0%
Week 15
Charles Johnson 64os 93%
Greg Jennings 65os 94%
Jarius Wright 44os 64%
Cordarralle Patterson 8os 12%
Adam Thielen 3os 4%
Week 16
Charles Johnson 55os 90%
Greg Jennings 47os 77%
Jarius Wright 34os 56%
Cordarralle Patterson 9os 15%
Adam Thielen 6os 10%
Week 17
Charles Johnson 57os 92%
Greg Jennings 48os 77%
Adam Thielen 20os 32%
Jarius Wright 8os 13%
Cordarralle Patterson 6os 10%
Mike Wallace is a different player than Greg Jennings and I think Johnson has a lot more competition for the X WR role in the offense because of Wallace. While I think it is a reasonable thing to assume that Johnson being used on 90% of the snaps in the Vikings offense moving forward based on his use in the last six games of 2014. It is important to recognize that there is more competition for the X WR role in the offense than when Johnson occupied that role during those six games. I think the Vikings have more Z WR than they do players that play X well and I am not sure Johnson can play a lot of flanker or slot. So it is possible that Johnson loses snaps in the offense to Wallace in the X WR role.
I still think Norv Turner did a good job of adjusting after trying Patterson out at the X position didn't work.
Charles Johnson won the start at the X WR after the Vikings came out of the bye week and played on over 90% of the offensive snaps for the remaining six weeks of the season. For a player such as Johnson who was not even with the team until week five of the season to play this much says more to me about how bad Patterson was in the X than how good Johnson was playing it.
Week 11
Cordarralle Patterson 35os 74%
Greg Jennings 32os 68%
Charles Johnson 25os 53%
Jarius Wright 18os 38%
Adam Thielen 11os 23%
Week 12
Charles Johnson 66os 97%
Greg Jennings 61os 90%
Cordarralle Patterson 32os 47%
Jarius Wright 8os 12%
Adam Thielen 4os 6%
Week 13
Charles Johnson 47os 98%
Greg Jennings 38os 79%
Jarius Wright 28os 58%
Cordarralle Patterson 3os 6%
Adam Thielen 1os 2%
Week 14
Charles Johnson 58os 100%
Greg Jennings 52os 90%
Jarius Wright 35os 60%
Cordarralle Patterson 1os 2%
Adam Thielen 0os 0%
Week 15
Charles Johnson 64os 93%
Greg Jennings 65os 94%
Jarius Wright 44os 64%
Cordarralle Patterson 8os 12%
Adam Thielen 3os 4%
Week 16
Charles Johnson 55os 90%
Greg Jennings 47os 77%
Jarius Wright 34os 56%
Cordarralle Patterson 9os 15%
Adam Thielen 6os 10%
Week 17
Charles Johnson 57os 92%
Greg Jennings 48os 77%
Adam Thielen 20os 32%
Jarius Wright 8os 13%
Cordarralle Patterson 6os 10%
Mike Wallace is a different player than Greg Jennings and I think Johnson has a lot more competition for the X WR role in the offense because of Wallace. While I think it is a reasonable thing to assume that Johnson being used on 90% of the snaps in the Vikings offense moving forward based on his use in the last six games of 2014. It is important to recognize that there is more competition for the X WR role in the offense than when Johnson occupied that role during those six games. I think the Vikings have more Z WR than they do players that play X well and I am not sure Johnson can play a lot of flanker or slot. So it is possible that Johnson loses snaps in the offense to Wallace in the X WR role.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
If they do this then they would be playing him in a more similar role to how Wallace was used in Miami than how Wallace played in Pittsburgh. A role that Wallace said he was unhappy with. He clearly wasn't as productive in Miami as he was with the Steelers. Part of that is not playing with an experienced QB. Part of it is not being played to his strengths in the new offense.
Mike Zimmer did state that his familiarity with Wallace is from when Wallace played with the Steelers. That is what they see in him and therefore how the hope or intend to use him in the future.
They could play Wallace primarily as the flanker if they felt Charles Johnson was clearly their second best WR, but they would not be playing to Wallaces strengths in order to accomidate Johnson.
I think it is more likely that Wallace plays most of the snaps at the X and Johnson plays there on some formations. Depending on how the depth chart shakes out during training camp and preseason I could see Wallace ending up as the primary split end while Johnson faces more competition for snaps at flanker. Thus causing Johnson to only play 50-60% of the offensive snaps instead of the 80-90% of the snaps some might assume from Johnson based on how he was used at the end of last season.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Sure, he was brutal last year and it's going to be tough for owners to go back to the well in redraft, but I can't see why he shouldn't be a target in the last few rounds of drafts. It's like we can only remember what happened last year. He apparently had enough upside to be going in the 4th round of drafts last year, it looks like he is working on his game, the offense will be better, and Johnson and Wallace aren't exactly Dez and Julio. Not saying it's likely, but I think there's a better chance than most people think of him being fantasy relevant again this year. He isn't even being mentioned when people talk about Vikings WRs now, which I find kind of amazing.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
In what is quite frankly a shocking turn of events, it turns out that I am now the highest ranker on Cordarrelle Patterson on either FBGs or DLF right now. Me. I'm not 100% positive, but I'm fairly sure I was the lowest on him last year. (In fact, I bet the reason I'm the highest today is probably the same reason I was one of the lowest last year: I do a lot of historical comparisons and attempt to be very Bayesian in my rankings approach, and those practices tend to urge patience both before upgrading and downgrading someone too severely.)
Jimmy Smith was the 36th pick in the 1992 draft. Due in large part to injuries, (including a broken leg), he didn't catch any passes through three years, hanging out on Dallas' practice squad before getting cut and latching on to the expansion Jaguars. He went on to arguably have a HoF-caliber career.
O.J. McDuffie was the 25th pick of the 1993 draft. He was supposed to help take over for the Marks Brothers in Miami, but he had only 713 yards and 3 TDs in his first two seasons combined, ranking 92nd and 60th at the position. He didn't turn into a star like Smith, but he finished 22nd, 19th, 36th, and 17th in years 3-6, which is a pretty solid "win".
Stop me if this one sounds familiar: Derrick Alexander, drafted 29th in the 1994 NFL draft, put up very exciting numbers as a rookie before taking a huge step back in year 2. His fall was even more dramatic than Patterson's- he went from 48/882/2 in year 1 to 15/216/0 in year two. Played the same number of games in both seasons (14 each), but started 12 out of 14 in year one and 2 out of 14 in year two. Troubling sign of things to come? Nope: Alexander finished as WR12 in each of the next two seasons, then later went on and had the best season in Chiefs' history (1436 yards, 10 TDs in 2000).
Amani Toomer, drafted 34th in 1996, was an electric returner in his first two seasons, leading the league in yards per punt return as a rookie and scoring three return touchdowns in his first two seasons. Unfortunately, he didn't do anything at all on offense: he basically did less in his first three years COMBINED (635 total yards, 6 total TDs, only one start) than Patterson did as a rookie alone (627 yards, 7 TDs, 6 starts). First glimpse of pending trouble? Nah, Toomer followed it with five straight 1,000 yard seasons, including top-20 fantasy finishes in four of the five years, (and a 6th place finish in 2002).
Muhsin Muhammad. 43rd pick. 724 yards and 1 TD through two years. 10,000 more career yards after that. Eric Moulds. 24th pick. 676 yards and 2 TDs through two years. Three career pro-bowls and a pair of top-5 fantasy finishes. Santana Moss. 16th pick. 36 yards and no TDs as a rookie, 418 yards and 4 TDs as a sophomore. 8th place and 3rd place fantasy finishes on two different franchises in the next three seasons. Roddy White. 27th pick. 458 yards and 3 TDs as a rookie. 506 yards and 0 TDs as a sophomore. Finished 14th, 6th, 7th, 5th, 8th, and 10th over the next six seasons. (Anecdotally, White was the 227th player off the board in a startup I did in 2007, and he would have been by far the steal of the draft... had his owner not cut him one week into the season.)
I can rattle off a dozen names of highly-drafted guys who sucked much more than Patterson did through two seasons and then went on to give 4+ years of quality fantasy production, usually with a top 10 finish or two mixed in somewhere along the way. This isn't to say that that's how things will turn out for Patterson. Or even to say that this is *LIKELY* how things will turn out for Patterson. Obviously sucking is never a good thing. It is unlikely that Cordarrelle Patterson ever amounts to anything for fantasy purposes. But he's the 61st WR off the board in recent startups right now; the market isn't pricing him like they think it's unlikely he amounts to anything, it's pricing him like they think it's virtually impossible he amounts to anything. Patterson's current price would make a lot of sense if you thought there was a 5-10% chance he was ever usable for fantasy purposes. I'd put the odds closer to 25%.
Remember all those things everyone liked about him last year? Those are still real things. He's still a huge guy and arguably the most dangerous player with the ball in his hands in the entire NFL. And yeah, he still can't run routes, but we knew coming in that he was a project. He only played 1 season of major-college ball. Antonio Brown had more receptions in one season than Cordarrelle Patterson does in his entire college and NFL careers combined.
People were overreacting to the positive stuff that he showed at the end of 2013, and his price last year reflected that. It was crazy. But now I think people are overreacting to the negative stuff that he showed in 2014, and his price is reflecting that. I think it's just as crazy. Cordarrelle Patterson is exactly who we thought he was. He's exactly what we always thought he was, and exactly what he's always been. He's a raw but electrifying athlete with a tremendous ceiling who was drafted high in the NFL draft because he can do things no one else in the league can. He's the same guy that the NFL Around the League crew, (including our old friend Chris Wesseling, who knows a thing or two about spotting electric talents), called the most likely to take a massive leap forward in year 2. He's 24 and just entering his third season, and people are already writing his entire career off. No way he deserves to be the 61st WR off the board in startups right now.
Didn't think after all the time I spent bashing him last year that I'd be writing his apologia today, but here we are.
Jimmy Smith was the 36th pick in the 1992 draft. Due in large part to injuries, (including a broken leg), he didn't catch any passes through three years, hanging out on Dallas' practice squad before getting cut and latching on to the expansion Jaguars. He went on to arguably have a HoF-caliber career.
O.J. McDuffie was the 25th pick of the 1993 draft. He was supposed to help take over for the Marks Brothers in Miami, but he had only 713 yards and 3 TDs in his first two seasons combined, ranking 92nd and 60th at the position. He didn't turn into a star like Smith, but he finished 22nd, 19th, 36th, and 17th in years 3-6, which is a pretty solid "win".
Stop me if this one sounds familiar: Derrick Alexander, drafted 29th in the 1994 NFL draft, put up very exciting numbers as a rookie before taking a huge step back in year 2. His fall was even more dramatic than Patterson's- he went from 48/882/2 in year 1 to 15/216/0 in year two. Played the same number of games in both seasons (14 each), but started 12 out of 14 in year one and 2 out of 14 in year two. Troubling sign of things to come? Nope: Alexander finished as WR12 in each of the next two seasons, then later went on and had the best season in Chiefs' history (1436 yards, 10 TDs in 2000).
Amani Toomer, drafted 34th in 1996, was an electric returner in his first two seasons, leading the league in yards per punt return as a rookie and scoring three return touchdowns in his first two seasons. Unfortunately, he didn't do anything at all on offense: he basically did less in his first three years COMBINED (635 total yards, 6 total TDs, only one start) than Patterson did as a rookie alone (627 yards, 7 TDs, 6 starts). First glimpse of pending trouble? Nah, Toomer followed it with five straight 1,000 yard seasons, including top-20 fantasy finishes in four of the five years, (and a 6th place finish in 2002).
Muhsin Muhammad. 43rd pick. 724 yards and 1 TD through two years. 10,000 more career yards after that. Eric Moulds. 24th pick. 676 yards and 2 TDs through two years. Three career pro-bowls and a pair of top-5 fantasy finishes. Santana Moss. 16th pick. 36 yards and no TDs as a rookie, 418 yards and 4 TDs as a sophomore. 8th place and 3rd place fantasy finishes on two different franchises in the next three seasons. Roddy White. 27th pick. 458 yards and 3 TDs as a rookie. 506 yards and 0 TDs as a sophomore. Finished 14th, 6th, 7th, 5th, 8th, and 10th over the next six seasons. (Anecdotally, White was the 227th player off the board in a startup I did in 2007, and he would have been by far the steal of the draft... had his owner not cut him one week into the season.)
I can rattle off a dozen names of highly-drafted guys who sucked much more than Patterson did through two seasons and then went on to give 4+ years of quality fantasy production, usually with a top 10 finish or two mixed in somewhere along the way. This isn't to say that that's how things will turn out for Patterson. Or even to say that this is *LIKELY* how things will turn out for Patterson. Obviously sucking is never a good thing. It is unlikely that Cordarrelle Patterson ever amounts to anything for fantasy purposes. But he's the 61st WR off the board in recent startups right now; the market isn't pricing him like they think it's unlikely he amounts to anything, it's pricing him like they think it's virtually impossible he amounts to anything. Patterson's current price would make a lot of sense if you thought there was a 5-10% chance he was ever usable for fantasy purposes. I'd put the odds closer to 25%.
Remember all those things everyone liked about him last year? Those are still real things. He's still a huge guy and arguably the most dangerous player with the ball in his hands in the entire NFL. And yeah, he still can't run routes, but we knew coming in that he was a project. He only played 1 season of major-college ball. Antonio Brown had more receptions in one season than Cordarrelle Patterson does in his entire college and NFL careers combined.
People were overreacting to the positive stuff that he showed at the end of 2013, and his price last year reflected that. It was crazy. But now I think people are overreacting to the negative stuff that he showed in 2014, and his price is reflecting that. I think it's just as crazy. Cordarrelle Patterson is exactly who we thought he was. He's exactly what we always thought he was, and exactly what he's always been. He's a raw but electrifying athlete with a tremendous ceiling who was drafted high in the NFL draft because he can do things no one else in the league can. He's the same guy that the NFL Around the League crew, (including our old friend Chris Wesseling, who knows a thing or two about spotting electric talents), called the most likely to take a massive leap forward in year 2. He's 24 and just entering his third season, and people are already writing his entire career off. No way he deserves to be the 61st WR off the board in startups right now.
Didn't think after all the time I spent bashing him last year that I'd be writing his apologia today, but here we are.
Not sure it was necessary to use the examples you did. For every one of those guys there are 5 who bust and never reach potential.
I'm ok giving Patterson a little more time to learn and grow in the NFL but it seems pretty ridiculous to me that he is ranked above guys like Kendall Wright, Percy Harvin, Eric Decker and Mike Wallace. These are guys who have at least 3-5 years left as fantasy producers and have been way more valuable than Patterson.
Patterson has a long way to go still before he can contribute as a wr3 or better in fantasy. There is no way I would advise anyone to take him above the guys I mentioned. 61st overall is actually about where he belongs.
Faust
MVP
Patterson 'best kick returner' in NFL says Vikings aide:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000495900/article/patterson-best-kick-returner-in-nfl-says-vikings-aide
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000495900/article/patterson-best-kick-returner-in-nfl-says-vikings-aide
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Mortimer Ichabod
Footballguy
Shhhhhhhhhhh! Snag him super late and thank me later
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]Today, Cordarrelle was a different guy. It was almost as if something finally clicked, or maybe the message finally got through to him. Today , I saw him reel in acrobatic catches down the sideline, I saw him make blocks on running plays, and I[/SIZE] saw what he could do when he’s engaged. You heard that right folks, I SAW CORDARRELLE MAKE BLOCKS IN THE RUN GAME!
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]This isn’t to say that I don’t still think he doesn’t “get it” completely. The antics are wearing on me a little bit. It’s almost as if he read the story about the diva wide receivers with quirky personalities and wanted to take it to a whole new level. No, it’s not that. I think that we might have something with Cordarrelle that we had with the last notable #84 that played for this team.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]...[/SIZE]
That’s what I saw on the field today with Cordarrelle Patterson. An enigma of late, to say the least, Patterson was targeted early in team drills and continued to shine as the fans on hand in Mankato chanted his name. Twenty-five yards across the middle. Forty-Five yards with an acrobatic adjustment down the sidelines. Even the incompletions thrown towards him were more impressive today. I’m telling you, this was the young dynamo we saw flash so many times during his rookie season. Oh, and this was mixing in with the number ones off and on throughout the day too.
Read more: http://www.kfan.com/onair/vikings-blog-38526/if-only-for-today-cordarrelle-came-13800721/#ixzz3hHnQnf1j
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]Today, Cordarrelle was a different guy. It was almost as if something finally clicked, or maybe the message finally got through to him. Today , I saw him reel in acrobatic catches down the sideline, I saw him make blocks on running plays, and I[/SIZE] saw what he could do when he’s engaged. You heard that right folks, I SAW CORDARRELLE MAKE BLOCKS IN THE RUN GAME!
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]This isn’t to say that I don’t still think he doesn’t “get it” completely. The antics are wearing on me a little bit. It’s almost as if he read the story about the diva wide receivers with quirky personalities and wanted to take it to a whole new level. No, it’s not that. I think that we might have something with Cordarrelle that we had with the last notable #84 that played for this team.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.6666666666667px]...[/SIZE]
That’s what I saw on the field today with Cordarrelle Patterson. An enigma of late, to say the least, Patterson was targeted early in team drills and continued to shine as the fans on hand in Mankato chanted his name. Twenty-five yards across the middle. Forty-Five yards with an acrobatic adjustment down the sidelines. Even the incompletions thrown towards him were more impressive today. I’m telling you, this was the young dynamo we saw flash so many times during his rookie season. Oh, and this was mixing in with the number ones off and on throughout the day too.
Read more: http://www.kfan.com/onair/vikings-blog-38526/if-only-for-today-cordarrelle-came-13800721/#ixzz3hHnQnf1j
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KellysHeroes
Footballguy
I'm sure he has days like that and then he has terrible days, CP just needs to be consistent
freeannyong
Footballguy
I have been taking him as my WR6/7 in MFL10s. Noone seems to want him.
I'll take a shot that late and hope he can hit a couple of big games.
I'll take a shot that late and hope he can hit a couple of big games.
Milkman
Footballguy
Nothing to get excited about. Even though it's a long shot he's still fighting for a starting so he's fully engaged. Once he's regulated to 4th or 5th on the depth chart he'll check out. Then he'll run the wrong route the first play he's in and we won't see him the rest of the game.
I'll get excited if he wins a starting spot before the season starts.
I'll get excited if he wins a starting spot before the season starts.
LawFitz
Footballguy
As long as he beats Jarius Wright for the starting slot WR spot and keeps the starting KR spot, he'll stay on my radar as a WR4/5. Last year was awful, but he hurt his hip early and never recovered from the setback IMO. All it will take this year to roll the dice is a late-round roster spot.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
That's far from a certainty, and probably unlikely at this point.
Faust
MVP
Access Vikings: Cordarrelle Patterson working with second team
http://video.startribune.com/access-vikings-cordarrelle-patterson-working-with-second-team/319563531/
http://video.startribune.com/access-vikings-cordarrelle-patterson-working-with-second-team/319563531/
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Warpig
Footballguy
He wishes he could carry Devin Hester's jock. Hester is in the record books, if not the HOF as a special teamer. CP has a looooooong way to go to be compared to Hester...in all fairness to Hester.
Faust
MVP
Vikings' Cordarrelle Patterson 'rounding' a corner:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000504950/article/vikings-cordarrelle-patterson-rounding-a-corner
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000504950/article/vikings-cordarrelle-patterson-rounding-a-corner
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
For those counting at home, that's not one, not two, but THREE negatives in the same sentence.
Faust
MVP
Minnesota Vikings training camp: Adrian Peterson looking sharp
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000505095/article/minnesota-vikings-training-camp-adrian-peterson-looking-sharp
Excerpts:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000505095/article/minnesota-vikings-training-camp-adrian-peterson-looking-sharp
Excerpts:
chauncey
Footballguy
To be fair, Cordarrelle is also in the record books. He set a new record for longest kickoff return and tied the record for longest play.Warpig said:
Video 1 (broadcast)
Video 2 (from the stands)
#### it, after watching a few of his highlight videos I'm back on the train. I may not draft him as a starter ever again but there will always be a spot at the end of my bench for CP. I can almost convince myself that his struggles last season were due to coaching, rookie QB, and lack of AP, all of which should be better this season.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Cordarrelle Patterson Pass From Shaun Hill for 21 Yrds, (Kick formation) B.Walsh extra point is GOOD, Center-C.Loeffler, Holder-J.Locke.
Plus another catch for 8 yards. 2 targets, 2 catches with 5:51 left in the first half
Plus another catch for 8 yards. 2 targets, 2 catches with 5:51 left in the first half
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I've always really liked him but the depth of their WR corps is such a strength right now that if he doesn't ramp up his return game, he may not make the roster!
They have Wallace, Johnson, Wright, Diggs and Thielen to go along with him and it will be tough for them to keep 6 WR's. Thielen has looked really good as a receiver and also has the added value of a coverage guy on special teams so it will be interesting. If he does make the roster, I don't think he will have ANY fantasy value based on how strong Wright and Diggs have looked so far.
They have Wallace, Johnson, Wright, Diggs and Thielen to go along with him and it will be tough for them to keep 6 WR's. Thielen has looked really good as a receiver and also has the added value of a coverage guy on special teams so it will be interesting. If he does make the roster, I don't think he will have ANY fantasy value based on how strong Wright and Diggs have looked so far.
Faust
MVP
Cordarrelle Patterson's up-and-down night: TD, taunting penalty
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/14826/cordarrelle-pattersons-up-and-down-night-td-taunting-penalty
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/14826/cordarrelle-pattersons-up-and-down-night-td-taunting-penalty
I own him in two leagues. The above is absolutely accurate. Great example that all the physical prowess in the world won't compensate for lack of brain power at the WR position.
