RB Matt Breida - Giants RB (1 Viewer)

[Biabreakable]

Honest questions:

Does he have good vision? Balance? The ability to push forward through defenders for that extra yard, that isn't entirely based upon size either (see Doug Martin or Shonn Greene)? Does he have the wiggle to make players miss? 

I honestly don't know but I didn't come away from that video thinking I saw demonstrations of any of those abilities. I saw what looks like good speed and acceleration.

I have seen a few examples of what I would call bad vision/lack of spatial awareness. One from the most recent game as I mentioned at the 4:50 mark of the clips.

I have mentioned some other ones earlier on in the thread from college game cut ups. Here is a link to that from back in May.

He does have a run from the college games where he goes helmet to helmet on a defender in the hole and may have concussed the guy. Good power there, but also likely penalty worthy if not for NFL double standards.

Balance is not that good, goes down to ankle tackles too often. Another example of that from the most recent game. He doesn't pick his feet up and this is also related to poor spatial awareness about where defenders are so he will know when he should pick his feet up or give himself more space from the defender with a side step.

I haven't seen him make defenders miss with quick lateral cuts that much, although I did see him do a good job finding cut back lane against over pursuit in preseason against the Vikings. Generally I think he is better going north south than east to west.

 

[Chaka]

Thanks @Biabreakable I am a believer in Hyde and owner in my league and am debating whether I need to handcuff. Right now my inclination is it is still the Hyde show I'm SF and if he goes down it's a time share of questionable value between Breida and Mostert.

 

[Biabreakable]

Thanks @Biabreakable I am a believer in Hyde and owner in my league and am debating whether I need to handcuff. Right now my inclination is it is still the Hyde show I'm SF and if he goes down it's a time share of questionable value between Breida and Mostert.

I do think he is worth handcuffing. Breida does have some good traits and shenanigans going on here.

Breida has some flaws as I mention, but the coach obviously likes him. North/South runners can be successful in this scheme as long as they see the cut back lanes, which Breida has shown he can do, as I observed in preseason.

I stand by the criticisms, but its not like he doesn't have good traits to be successful in this offense.

Up to you of course if you want to use the roster spot on him.

 

[Chaka]

I do think he is worth handcuffing. Breida does have some good traits and shenanigans going on here.

Breida has some flaws as I mention, but the coach obviously likes him. North/South runners can be successful in this scheme as long as they see the cut back lanes, which Breida has shown he can do, as I observed in preseason.

I stand by the criticisms, but its not like he doesn't have good traits to be successful in this offense.

Up to you of course if you want to use the roster spot on him.

I don't believe K.Shanahan deserves a rep for being fickle with RBs and his father's rep for same is overblown IMO. Both have demonstrated that when they have a guy they trust they ride them, hard. We get angry with M.Shanahan because we thought he had a guy at times and he didn't do what we hoped (do I even need to say who he was trying to motivate?) but IMO that is on us more than him.

I think it's pretty clear that K.Shanahan believes in Hyde and there is nothing Hyde has done to diminish that. Yes he had two bad plays this week giving Breida an opportunity but Hyde has been far better than we all expected this season and I think that prevails here.

I appreciate your analysis but I am still not convinced by Breida having the vision to make that read/hard-cut that a K.Shanahan offense requires and nothing that happened last week changes my opinion.

 

[Biabreakable]

The shenanigans comment mostly meant as a joke.

While I agree that Hyde is the better player, he did bench him. So that at least makes me wonder about his loyalty/commitment to Hyde. He didn't demonstrate trust and confidence in Hyde doing that.

I think my comments about Breida are mostly negative, so just trying to be fair and balanced about it. Bredia does have very good speed and he can transfer that speed to power. The coach does like his game.

As I said though up to you if you think Breida is worth a roster spot or not. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Chaka]

The shenanigans comment mostly meant as a joke.

While I agree that Hyde is the better player, he did bench him. So that at least makes me wonder about his loyalty/commitment to Hyde. He didn't demonstrate trust and confidence in Hyde doing that.

I think my comments about Breida are mostly negative, so just trying to be fair and balanced about it. Bredia does have very good speed and he can transfer that speed to power. The coach does like his game.

As I said though up to you if you think Breida is worth a roster spot or not. Good luck with your decision.

I think your comments on Breida have bee more than reasonable. And I am agreeing, particularly as it relates to his ability/vision to make the read/cut necessary to run Shanahan's system. 

Any RB in line for big touches is worth considering and rostering if possible. But this week that looks far more like Samane Perine than Matt Breida.

Either way I'm not able to roster either right now...although Alex Collins is squarely on my chopping block.

 

[Saboo]

Grab Matt Breida if you can as there are reports coming out of San Francisco that Carlos Hyde may be on the trading block

https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/919284331301961728

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[Alex P Keaton]

Grab Matt Breida if you can as there are reports coming out of San Francisco that Carlos Hyde may be on the trading block

https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/919284331301961728

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If Breida is Coleman, isn't Mostert the "Hyde replacement", aka "D Freeman"?

 

[SameSongNDance]

If Breida is Coleman, isn't Mostert the "Hyde replacement", aka "D Freeman"?

I'm sure Mostert would get some work but he's roughly half the threat Hyde is.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I'm sure Mostert would get some work but he's roughly half the threat Hyde is.

My comment has nothing to do with Hyde - it has to do with how Breida is viewed somehow as the Hyde replacement, but it's certainly plausible that Mostert would get that opportunity instead.

 

[Saboo]

The 49ers seem to love Breida. Not saying those other guys wouldn’t have a role, but it seems pretty evident Breida is THE guy to own if Hyde is traded.

 

[SameSongNDance]

My comment has nothing to do with Hyde - it has to do with how Breida is viewed somehow as the Hyde replacement, but it's certainly plausible that Mostert would get that opportunity instead.

Of course your comment has something to do with Hyde.

If it's a split between Hyde and Breida, Hyde is talented enough to to cap Breida's workload and subsequent upside assuming Hyde is healthy. If it's a split between Mostert and Breida, the possibility that Breida plays himself into more touches increases since Mostert isn't as talented as Hyde.

It's like asking whether or not Coleman would get more touches if he were splitting with Ward as opposed to Freeman. It's kind of obvious that he'd likely see more work than usual. At least to me it is.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Of course your comment has something to do with Hyde.

If it's a split between Hyde and Breida, Hyde is talented enough to to cap Breida's workload and subsequent upside assuming Hyde is healthy. If it's a split between Mostert and Breida, the possibility that Breida plays himself into more touches increases since Mostert isn't as talented as Hyde.

It's like asking whether or not Coleman would get more touches if he were splitting with Ward as opposed to Freeman. It's kind of obvious that he'd likely see more work than usual. At least to me it is.

I get that.  That wasn't my point.

I'm speculating / asking if Shanahan has a pre-determined idea of which role should get more carries.  The "Freeman role" or the "Coleman role"?  Or is his view on relative usage based more on player caliber?

I could see a scenario where Mostert or someone else gets 70% of snaps and Breida stays at 30-40% of snaps/touches.  More in like with how Shanahan used Freeman and Coleman.

Flip side.....in Coleman's rookie year he started out getting more touches.

Just thinking out loud.  And no, none of those comments have anything to do with Hyde - all are forward looking.

 

[Insein]

My comment has nothing to do with Hyde - it has to do with how Breida is viewed somehow as the Hyde replacement, but it's certainly plausible that Mostert would get that opportunity instead.

Coach speak. He's currently trying to justify their usage to the fans while Hyde is still here. Saying both are Interchangeable. I think Breida would be looking at Hyde's touches from the first 4 weeks if Hyde is traded.

 

[SameSongNDance]

I get that. That wasn't my point.

I'm speculating / asking if Shanahan has a pre-determined idea of which role should get more carries. The "Freeman role" or the "Coleman role"? Or is his view on relative usage based more on player caliber?

I could see a scenario where Mostert or someone else gets 70% of snaps and Breida stays at 30-40% of snaps/touches. More in like with how Shanahan used Freeman and Coleman.

Flip side.....in Coleman's rookie year he started out getting more touches.

Just thinking out loud. And no, none of those comments have anything to do with Hyde - all are forward looking.

We are talking about Hyde's perceived role so your comments have something to do with Hyde if only tangentially. You even ask whether or not it is dependent on player caliber in the bolded which forces you to bring Hyde in the equation. Regardless, we literally just saw Breida out-snap (49% to 46%) and out-touch (15 to 9) Hyde. So by your definition if there is a Hyde role (majority of snaps/touches) Shanahan has already shown that he's willing to give it to Breida.

 All we know is that Breida's utilization (4>6>7>9>15) and snaps (21%>18%>20%>31%>49%) have trended upwards and that the situation is fluid, much like it would be if it were between Breida and Mostert. 

 

[Biabreakable]

Of course your comment has something to do with Hyde.

If it's a split between Hyde and Breida, Hyde is talented enough to to cap Breida's workload and subsequent upside assuming Hyde is healthy. If it's a split between Mostert and Breida, the possibility that Breida plays himself into more touches increases since Mostert isn't as talented as Hyde.

It's like asking whether or not Coleman would get more touches if he were splitting with Ward as opposed to Freeman. It's kind of obvious that he'd likely see more work than usual. At least to me it is.

Your example made me think of Brian Hill who the Falcons drafted this year but then I did a quick search and found out they cut him today. 

 

[Interseptopus]

considering cutting McFadden for Breida. at the very least I'd have a good/cheap keeper for next year. at the best it could be a nice lotto strike 

 

[Eights]

considering cutting McFadden for Breida. at the very least I'd have a good/cheap keeper for next year. at the best it could be a nice lotto strike 

I've already dropped Morris to pick up Breida, I'd rather not play the RB carousel with the Dallas back ups while Ezekiel sits.

 

[Interseptopus]

I've already dropped Morris to pick up Breida, I'd rather not play the RB carousel with the Dallas back ups while Ezekiel sits.

this is where i am too. before zeke it was kind of a nightmare. 

 

[icehouse]

considering cutting McFadden for Breida. at the very least I'd have a good/cheap keeper for next year. at the best it could be a nice lotto strike 

It works even better if you're in a Yahoo league. If Breida sucks you can pick McFadden back up Monday before the game. 

 

[Eights]

this is where i am too. before zeke it was kind of a nightmare. 

I've lost Spencer Ware, Chris Carson who I drafted and now possibly Zeke, I have however through the waivers grabbed Collins, Jones  and I drafted Kamara, it's been an interesting start to fantasy football, lots of injuries this year. Good luck

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The 49ers seem to love Breida. Not saying those other guys wouldn’t have a role, but it seems pretty evident Breida is THE guy to own if Hyde is traded.

Obviously true for 2017.

Williams has to learn not to fumble and then it gets very debatable from 2018 onwards. He was bettering Breida by almost a yard-and-a-half per carry in the pre-season.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Obviously true for 2017.

Williams has to learn not to fumble and then it gets very debatable from 2018 onwards. He was bettering Breida by almost a yard-and-a-half per carry in the pre-season.

True.  Mostert was ahead of Breida too.  Guess who was behind all 3?  Right, Hyde.

 

[Insein]

Shefter and Berry on SF backfield

 

[Chaka]

I am sure all these rumors are not lost on Hyde. May have to bench Howard or D.Martin for him.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I am sure all these rumors are not lost on Hyde. 

My thoughts (hopes) as well

 

[Saboo]

For all the talk about Breida, I just don’t see it. To my eyes Hyde is the superior back. 

 

[Chaka]

Going forward it seems unlikely that Shanahan will put a rookie RB in the same backfield as his rookie QB on a regular basis.

 

[Saboo]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the 49ers GM come out and publicly say (I know it probably doesn’t mean much what he says publicly) that the team had no intentions of trading Carlos Hyde?

I only bring this up because of a blurb on Rotowire that mentioned that they felt Matt Breida is worth holding onto until the trade deadline because Hyde may be dealt. Personally I’d be surprised if Hyde is moved at this point. I was wondering if anyone has heard anything new about the Hyde trade rumors that I might be missing.

"Breida has seen his touches decrease in two consecutive weeks since appearing to gain a larger role Week 5. The lack of usage may be linked to rumors surrounding a potential trade of starting running back Carlos Hyde. While the 49ers denied the claims, it is worth noting that they acted similarly before trading away Vance McDonald this past offseason. The team already parted ways with All-Pro linebacker NaVorro Bowman, and at 0-7, it would be surprising if the Niners weren't trying to move some of their impending free agents. Breida's reduced role these past two weeks makes him unstartable in almost any format, but forward-thinking owners should continue to hold on to the rookie at least until the Oct. 31 trade deadline passes"

 

[Biabreakable]

The trade rumors have been pretty much denied by people who might actually know about them. Of course those denials could just be bald faced lies as well, doing a favor for the 49ers front office in exchange for scoops later.

Breida certainly worth holding on to and not just because of a potential trade of Hyde. Hyde tends to get hurt and miss games at some point, so there is more than one way that Breidas value could see a significant jump.

The only downside for hanging on to Breida would be if Hyde signed a long term contract with the 49ers which was rumored to be on the table as well.

 

[Chaka]

We still talking about this guy? 

Breida is an injury hold for Hyde owners and injury prospectors, nothing more.

 

[Biabreakable]

We still talking about this guy? 

Breida is an injury hold for Hyde owners and injury prospectors, nothing more.

Some of us are. Especially people who may be looking at his potential value from a dynasty perspective.

If you don't want to talk about him then don't post in the thread.

 

[Slapdash]

The trade rumors have been pretty much denied by people who might actually know about them. Of course those denials could just be bald faced lies as well, doing a favor for the 49ers front office in exchange for scoops later.

Breida certainly worth holding on to and not just because of a potential trade of Hyde. Hyde tends to get hurt and miss games at some point, so there is more than one way that Breidas value could see a significant jump.

The only downside for hanging on to Breida would be if Hyde signed a long term contract with the 49ers which was rumored to be on the table as well.

The addition of Jimmy G provides a fresh perspective longer term on the SF backfield as it looks like they have a competent QB to build around.  Breida continues to see a good share for an UDFA.  I don't see paying to maintain Hyde, they will probably look to invest on weapons in the passing game.  That doesn't mean they won't bring in someone cheaper/another pick, but I see it as more than likely he gets a shot to lead a RBBC next year.  Coaching staff seems to love him.

Now, who knows if he'll do anything or fall on his face like many others.  But, it may be a good time to acquire him...his value probably rises over the offseason.

 

[Boston]

The addition of Jimmy G provides a fresh perspective longer term on the SF backfield as it looks like they have a competent QB to build around.  Breida continues to see a good share for an UDFA.  I don't see paying to maintain Hyde, they will probably look to invest on weapons in the passing game.  That doesn't mean they won't bring in someone cheaper/another pick, but I see it as more than likely he gets a shot to lead a RBBC next year.  Coaching staff seems to love him.

Now, who knows if he'll do anything or fall on his face like many others.  But, it may be a good time to acquire him...his value probably rises over the offseason.

The x-factor is no one knows what Hyde's value on the open-market is...he is a real solid RB but not sure he will get any "wow" offers...with the cap situation San Fran has I could see them wanting Hyde back...this is a team with a lot of holes and he would help stabilize the RB position...San Fran is going to do everything they can to put Jimmy G in a good situation and having Hyde (along with a somewhat intriguing Breida) back for another year or two while shoring up other positions may be a smart move...again, this is all based on Hyde coming in at a # that works for both the team and player...

 

[Slapdash]

The x-factor is no one knows what Hyde's value on the open-market is...he is a real solid RB but not sure he will get any "wow" offers...with the cap situation San Fran has I could see them wanting Hyde back...this is a team with a lot of holes and he would help stabilize the RB position...San Fran is going to do everything they can to put Jimmy G in a good situation and having Hyde (along with a somewhat intriguing Breida) back for another year or two while shoring up other positions may be a smart move...again, this is all based on Hyde coming in at a # that works for both the team and player...

Good point.  Hyde has performed, statistically, like a fringe RB1.  Will he get paid like one...either by SF or another team?  There is a ton of cap room out there,  I just think it is more likely than not Hyde is in another locale.

 

[Biabreakable]

Yeah maybe the 49ers do not re-sign Carlos Hyde. I am really not sure about that right now. Haven't been paying attention to the 49ers at all for a couple months aside from noticing they beat the Bears.

Hyde has played 72.8% of the offensive snaps so far this season. 602 total. Hyde has 174 rushing attempts and 78 targets (thats pretty high 6.5 targets per game), 252 total. .42 opportunities per snap.

Matt Breida has played 26.2% of the offensive snaps so far this season. 217 total. 65 rushing attempts and 33 targets. 98 total. .45 opportunities per snap. Slightly higher than Hyde as far as that goes.

As far as efficiency stats Matt Brieda has a respectable 4.2 ypc on his 65 opportunities. He has only caught 57.6% of his targets however, thats well below average of 73% for a RB. He has 7.4 yards per reception which is average for a RB. 4.2 yards per target is below average though. These efficiency stats are better than Carlos Hyde however, who has 4 ypc 66.7% catch rate, 5.9 yards per reception and 3.9 yards per target.

Volume goes up efficiency goes down. Hyde is cleary trusted more as a receiver than Breida is, but Hydes efficiency stats are not better than Breidas. Which does open the question for the SF coaches in regards to if they could get similar results from Breida if they gave him more opportunities instead of Hyde.

I dunno. So far things have gone as I expected. They have leaned on Hyde for the most part this season. The high targets for Hyde do show they have a lot of trust in him as a receiver, but I can see them letting Hyde walk if they like what they have in Breida and Joe Williams coming back from injury as well.

 

[Boston]

Good point.  Hyde has performed, statistically, like a fringe RB1.  Will he get paid like one...either by SF or another team?  There is a ton of cap room out there,  I just think it is more likely than not Hyde is in another locale.

Wouldn't surprise me either but when it comes to RBs you just never know what these guys will get paid...it seems somewhat random at times...with San Fran rebuilding and having a great cap situation they may be willing to give him some decent up-front $ knowing he will not hurt their cap once they are further along in the rebuild...I do think the most important thing they do this year is doing everything possible to make Jimmy G successful...if he is the real deal their path back to being good gets about 1,000,000 times easier...having a solid vet like Hyde who they appear to trust may not be a bad move for where this team currently is...

 

[Biabreakable]

I agree keeping Hyde makes sense for the 49ers as well.

One thing that hasn't been talked about is pass protection. If they don't trust Breida or Williams in that area going into next season, then signing Hyde to a new deal makes sense from that perspective.

 

[Banger]

so is Matt the starting RB going forward or will they likely add someone?  

 

[Boston]

so is Matt the starting RB going forward or will they likely add someone?  

I think it is almost 100% that they bring someone else in...the obvious question is who...this is a scenario that still has to be played out...Hyde leaving is a short-term plus but his replacement could be a better player so it's not time to celebrate yet...

 

[Banger]

I think it is almost 100% that they bring someone else in...the obvious question is who...this is a scenario that still has to be played out...Hyde leaving is a short-term plus but his replacement could be a better player so it's not time to celebrate yet...

rumors it may be McKinnon...apparently deciding between the 49ers and Jets.

 

[Boston]

rumors it may be McKinnon...apparently deciding between the 49ers and Jets.

That would be a real nice spot if you are a McKinnon owner...I also think Breida would get some solid touches as well if he proves he deserves it...McKinnon wants to be a #1 but I don't see him being a dominate #1 if he gets that opportunity...there will be room for another RB to be productive...

 

[Ditka Butkus]

That would be a real nice spot if you are a McKinnon owner...I also think Breida would get some solid touches as well if he proves he deserves it...McKinnon wants to be a #1 but I don't see him being a dominate #1 if he gets that opportunity...there will be room for another RB to be productive...

Aren't Breida and McKinnon basically the same guy/game...If they bring anybody in it should be a hammer.

 

[Boston]

Aren't Breida and McKinnon basically the same guy/game...If they bring anybody in it should be a hammer.

They could bring in McKinnon and another RB...that would not be good news for Breida...here are a couple of articles about him:

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/29/16944118/matt-breida-stats-2018-49ers-carlos-hyde-nfl-draft-rookies

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/2/16840146/49ers-season-stats-running-back-matt-breida-carlos-hyde

 

[Ditka Butkus]

They could bring in McKinnon and another RB...that would not be good news for Breida...here are a couple of articles about him:

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/29/16944118/matt-breida-stats-2018-49ers-carlos-hyde-nfl-draft-rookies

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/2/16840146/49ers-season-stats-running-back-matt-breida-carlos-hyde

I'd like to see them team Breida with Rex Burkhead..

 

[Boston]

I'd like to see them team Breida with Rex Burkhead..

Burkhead is an interesting player...he can do a lot of things...doesn't seem to be a lot of chatter about him right now...

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Whats the feeling on Breida right now?  I just offered him to a solid GM who owns McKinnon asking for a mid 2nd round pick back and was told that if I cut him, they may not even pick him up.  I was a bit shocked by that.  I view him as the clear handcuff to a guy who has never topped 160 carries in his 4 year career.  I thought a 2nd round pick was proper value, but I am second guessing myself to a small extent.  I still think that's about right.  I think he is a great cuff for McKinnon owners, and a solid bench player for anyone else.  Should be a decent offense, and the guy in front of him has proven very little IMO.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Whats the feeling on Breida right now?  I just offered him to a solid GM who owns McKinnon asking for a mid 2nd round pick back and was told that if I cut him, they may not even pick him up.  I was a bit shocked by that.  I view him as the clear handcuff to a guy who has never topped 160 carries in his 4 year career.  I thought a 2nd round pick was proper value, but I am second guessing myself to a small extent.  I still think that's about right.  I think he is a great cuff for McKinnon owners, and a solid bench player for anyone else.  Should be a decent offense, and the guy in front of him has proven very little IMO.

No-one will give anything up for Breida right now, and a mid 2nd is a little on the garbage side in this year's draft, so you're not missing out on much.. Keep Breida, screw that guy. McKinnon didn't exactly blow up when Cook got hurt, and he's never been a lead back. Breida could turn into something. Somebody on that team other than McKinnon will have value.

 

[mcd]

No-one will give anything up for Breida right now, and a mid 2nd is a little on the garbage side in this year's draft, so you're not missing out on much.. Keep Breida, screw that guy. McKinnon didn't exactly blow up when Cook got hurt, and he's never been a lead back. Breida could turn into something. Somebody on that team other than McKinnon will have value.

In PPR leagues Cook was the #9 RB in weeks 1-4 (4 weeks) .

In PPR leagues McKinnon was the #2 RB in weeks 5-8 (4 weeks).

Minnesota then had a bye week and Murraywas incorporated into the offense, McKinnon was not used the same way the rest of the year. Even so, he finished as the #9 RB in weeks 5-16.

McKinnon has top 5 PPR potential in a Shanahan offense. SF doesn't have a big back that will steal short yardage TDs, McKinnon is bigger than Brieda and the same size as Williams. He will not be removed automatically inside the 5 yard line. Juszczyk could get some short yardage TDs, but McKinnon will also. I think Shanahan uses him like he was used in week 5-8 last year.

 

[Biabreakable]

Whats the feeling on Breida right now?  I just offered him to a solid GM who owns McKinnon asking for a mid 2nd round pick back and was told that if I cut him, they may not even pick him up.  I was a bit shocked by that.  I view him as the clear handcuff to a guy who has never topped 160 carries in his 4 year career.  I thought a 2nd round pick was proper value, but I am second guessing myself to a small extent.  I still think that's about right.  I think he is a great cuff for McKinnon owners, and a solid bench player for anyone else.  Should be a decent offense, and the guy in front of him has proven very little IMO.

I could see lowering your target to a 3rd round rookie pick,

Due to the 5 QB and also 5 TE that I think are worth rostering. I have 27 players who are tier two or higher prospects from the 2018 draft class so that is into the early 3rd round in 12 team leagues.

I had Matt Breida as the 51st rookie prospect last year, near the end of tier 3. The outlook for him has improved. He moved ahead of Joe Williams on the depth chart and Carlos Hyde is gone now, but I still would pay more than a 3rd round 2018 pick for him although I do think he is the most likely RB to split with McKinnon this season.

Joe Williams is a wild card here. I didn't think all that highly of him or Breida last year. I think Williams has more risk of being worth nothing than Breida, but he is a more elusive player with some exciting ability at times. More exciting to me than Breida FWIW.

eta - moot point as the McKinnon owner said he might not pick up Breida if you cut him. But maybe someone else in your league has more interest in him than that owner does.