Official monkeypox discussion thread (1 Viewer)

[Alex P Keaton]

My understanding is that monkeypox spreads mainly through close physical contact with an infected person.  I'm sure there are probably other, less efficient means of transmission, but that sounds like the main one.  Little kids hug, touch, and rub up against their parents all the time.  I have absolutely no idea whether you can spread monkeypox by using somebody else's blankets or linens, but those things get passed around in households too.  This isn't a mystery to anybody who's raised a kid.

As to why gay men are so prone to monkeypox, it's because monkeypox spreads mainly through close physical contact with an infected person, and gay men -- as a demographic group -- are really promiscuous.  That's not because they're gay.  It's because they're men.  We would have been super-promiscuous too if women were wired that way.  

None of this stuff requires any tiptoeing around.

Uh, yeah.  No disagreement.  Again, this is all stuff you can find out from Google in 30 seconds.  Like the CDC link I shared earlier.
 

Monkeypox found a foothold in a subpocket of gay men.  And it spread quickly.  Next it will branch out to kids and some other group still TBD.

Others in here seemed overly eager to emphasize the gay angle.  Almost like they had a hidden message.  What could it be?

 

[shader]

That was absolutely a common narrative in the mid-80s.  I don’t know anyone who believes that now either — but if you think it wasn’t true in 1985, then you either weren’t alive then or you weren’t aware.

I was alive. Gay people were ostracized probably because people didn’t want to get it from them.  Nobody thought only gay people could get it 

 

[shader]

Uh, yeah.  No disagreement.  Again, this is all stuff you can find out from Google in 30 seconds.  Like the CDC link I shared earlier.
 

Monkeypox found a foothold in a subpocket of gay men.  And it spread quickly.  Next it will branch out to kids and some other group still TBD.

Others in here seemed overly eager to emphasize the gay angle.  Almost like they had a hidden message.  What could it be?

Uh, it’s not a hidden message. Extremely promiscuous sex leads to outbreaks of diseases?  But that’s not an angle you’ll soon see on the news.  If anti-vaxxers can (rightly so) get criticized for serious diseases coming back, the gay community deserves some criticism for allowing a disease like this to flourish and get a foothold. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I was alive. Gay people were ostracized probably because people didn’t want to get it from them.  Nobody thought only gay people could get it 

Sorry, you are just wrong.  Check out the book or movie And the Band Played On.  This isn’t remotely controversial.  It’s just fact.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Uh, it’s not a hidden message. Extremely promiscuous sex leads to outbreaks of diseases?  But that’s not an angle you’ll soon see on the news.  If anti-vaxxers can (rightly so) get criticized for serious diseases coming back, the gay community deserves some criticism for allowing a disease like this to flourish and get a foothold. 

I have no issue with that message.  Where I have an issue is when people insinuate that gay people are giving their kids the disease by “sleeping in the same bed” and “sharing fluids with them.”  And acting like that is some innocent observation.  We all can guess what that is code for.

 

[shader]

Sorry, you are just wrong.  Check out the book or movie And the Band Played On.  This isn’t remotely controversial.  It’s just fact.

It’s impossible for me to know what everyone thought.  I’m only saying that viewpoint is one I never heard, and it’s certainly not a viewpoint anyone believes today. 

 

[shader]

I have no issue with that message.  Where I have an issue is when people insinuate that gay people are giving their kids the disease by “sleeping in the same bed” and “sharing fluids with them.”  And acting like that is some innocent observation.  We all can guess what that is code for.

Ok I missed this, my apologies.  Yeah that angle is much more sinister and not one anyone should hint around at, imo.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I have no issue with that message.  Where I have an issue is when people insinuate that gay people are giving their kids the disease by “sleeping in the same bed” and “sharing fluids with them.”  And acting like that is some innocent observation.  We all can guess what that is code for.

Jfc.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It’s impossible for me to know what everyone thought.  I’m only saying that viewpoint is one I never heard, and it’s certainly not a viewpoint anyone believes today. 

Thankfully not.  And I’m not trying to suggest you or anyone specifically believed that — but it was a very common myth in the mid-80s.

https://palmettocare.org/2018/04/13-myths-about-hiv-busted/

https://www.hrc.org/resources/debunking-common-myths-about-hiv

 

[IvanKaramazov]

That was absolutely a common narrative in the mid-80s.  I don’t know anyone who believes that now either — but if you think it wasn’t true in 1985, then you either weren’t alive then or you weren’t aware.

Put me in shader's camp on this. 

I was in high school in 1985.  One of my teachers had a poster in his classroom that depicted a young high school couple (boy and girl) who had sex -- one of them was HIV+, and the poster proceeded to show all their various sexual contacts over the next few years.  The kicker was supposed to be that by the time Melanie finds out that she has AIDS three years later, or whenever, their sexual network covered pretty much the entire HS population, including a bunch of people who didn't even know that Melanie existed, and now all those people have AIDS too and just don't know it yet. 

It was a terrifying poster!  I was a ####### teenager who didn't know what an R0 was and didn't understand how HIV spread.  The lesson I received was that if I had unprotected sex with a girl who had HIV, I was definitely going to get HIV.  It wasn't until I was a senior in college that I learned that actually HIV is really hard to contract if you're a straight guy.  It's mainly a bloodborne illness.  Unprotected anal sex is really dangerous, but unprotected PIV sex isn't.  If you were walking around thinking that HIV was mainly a "gay" disease, that was actually a more accurate model of the world than the one I was taught. 

Now, in hindsight, that's obvious.  HIV never ravaged the heterosexual community the way it ravaged the gay community.  If you knew that the main driver of HIV was unprotected anal sex, that's exactly what you would have predicted.  If you thought that HIV spread equally well in all populations, you were shown to be very wrong.   

Back to your point, though, "AIDS isn't a 'gay disease'" was absolutely a boilerplate bullet point that accompanied every lesson presented to me about HIV from the mid-80s through college.  In fairness, I did not grow up in an especially conservative community so YMMV.

 

[shader]

Put me in shader's camp on this. 

I was in high school in 1985.  One of my teachers had a poster in his classroom that depicted a young high school couple (boy and girl) who had sex -- one of them was HIV+, and the poster proceeded to show all their various sexual contacts over the next few years.  The kicker was supposed to be that by the time Melanie finds out that she has AIDS three years later, or whenever, their sexual network covered pretty much the entire HS population, including a bunch of people who didn't even know that Melanie existed, and now all those people have AIDS too and just don't know it yet. 

It was a terrifying poster!  I was a ####### teenager who didn't know what an R0 was and didn't understand how HIV spread.  The lesson I received was that if I had unprotected sex with a girl who had HIV, I was definitely going to get HIV.  It wasn't until I was a senior in college that I learned that actually HIV is really hard to contract if you're a straight guy.  It's mainly a bloodborne illness.  Unprotected anal sex is really dangerous, but unprotected PIV sex isn't.  If you were walking around thinking that HIV was mainly a "gay" disease, that was actually a more accurate model of the world than the one I was taught. 

Now, in hindsight, that's obvious.  HIV never ravaged the heterosexual community the way it ravaged the gay community.  If you knew that the main driver of HIV was unprotected anal sex, that's exactly what you would have predicted.  If you thought that HIV spread equally well in all populations, you were shown to be very wrong.   

Back to your point, though, "AIDS isn't a 'gay disease'" was absolutely a boilerplate bullet point that accompanied every lesson presented to me about HIV from the mid-80s through college.  In fairness, I did not grow up in an especially conservative community so YMMV.

Not to mention the Ryan White story in the mid 80s….
 

Maybe I was in a different circle, but gay people aren’t a different species, so while I guess AK’s links show that there were some that thought that, it’s an opinion I’ve literally never heard until today.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

So we have a disease that right now is primarily spreading due to the behavior of gay men.

Seems like 99%of the messaging should be centered around that. 

Is it? 

 

[Max Power]

I have no issue with that message.  Where I have an issue is when people insinuate that gay people are giving their kids the disease by “sleeping in the same bed” and “sharing fluids with them.”  And acting like that is some innocent observation.  We all can guess what that is code for.

What's it code for?

 

[joffer]

I was alive. Gay people were ostracized probably because people didn’t want to get it from them.  Nobody thought only gay people could get it 

Incorrect.  GRID

 

[The General]

So we have a disease that right now is primarily spreading due to the behavior of gay men.

Seems like 99%of the messaging should be centered around that. 

Is it? 

It's mentioned in every article I have read.

 

[Max Power]

It's mentioned in every article I have read.

So back to the masking aspect... is there any science supporting wearing masks to reduce the risk of monkeypox.

Do we know how long the CDC considers "prolonged" exposure?

 

[John123]

It's mentioned in every article I have read.

Always with a caveat, and I've never seen the statistics mentioned.  Just that it's more common in the MSM/gay community.  They purposely downplay that piece of the story so people like you can pretend it's not being downplayed. 

 

[The General]

So back to the masking aspect... is there any science supporting wearing masks to reduce the risk of monkeypox.

Do we know how long the CDC considers "prolonged" exposure?

Link

This is what I read a month or so ago when this was just getting on the radar. A whole lot of unknown. 

I would like to pass on this.

 

[The General]

Always with a caveat, and I've never seen the statistics mentioned.  Just that it's more common in the MSM/gay community.  They purposely downplay that piece of the story so people like you can pretend it's not being downplayed. 

I guess I am not seeing this. Every article I have seen today mentions this, many have put in stats.  Coverage of this has been very good, not sensationalized, informative. Any misinformation on my part has been from not reading whole article or not paying attention.

 

[Max Power]

Link

This is what I read a month or so ago when this was just getting on the radar. A whole lot of unknown. 

I would like to pass on this.

I saw that headline. I'll check out the rest of the article. 

But again, this is where I'm disappointed in the CDC. Shouldnt we know by now? That article is a month+ old. 

WHO elevates this disease and now people are confused thinking it could spread similar to covid. 

 

[The Football Freak]

Incorrect.  GRID

Exactly. A lot of people are saying things with extreme confidence, but they are completely incorrect. GRID was the initial name given to HIV/AIDS. (Gay Related Immuno-Deficiency). 

 

[The General]

I saw that headline. I'll check out the rest of the article. 

But again, this is where I'm disappointed in the CDC. Shouldnt we know by now? That article is a month+ old. 

WHO elevates this disease and now people are confused thinking it could spread similar to covid. 

I would definitely like them knowing more and as fast as possible. 

 

[supermike80]

I would definitely like them knowing more and as fast as possible. 

I think direct payments to people would help keep everyone in their homes 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Not to mention the Ryan White story in the mid 80s….
 

Maybe I was in a different circle, but gay people aren’t a different species, so while I guess AK’s links show that there were some that thought that, it’s an opinion I’ve literally never heard until today.  

I know about "AIDS is only a gay disease" because we were taught that that was incorrect.  I never met anybody who argued that AIDS was a gay disease, but I met 392,303 people who led with AIDS not being a gay disease.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Exactly. A lot of people are saying things with extreme confidence, but they are completely incorrect. GRID was the initial name given to HIV/AIDS. (Gay Related Immuno-Deficiency). 

I'm saying with extreme confidence that by the time I heard of AIDS, the name had already changed.  I don't think I've ever heard of GRID until literally right now.  

I think some of you are taking a narrative from today and retconning it back to 1985.  For people of our age, say 60 and under, AIDS was never GRID and it was barely even AIDS -- the virus is HIV and it feels anachronistic even to call it AIDS.  The issue here is not "Did some people think that the virus that causes AIDS is homophobic?"  I'm positive that some people did.  The issue is "Was it commonly accepted that the virus that causes AIDS is homophobic?" and the answer is no.  That idea was aggressively policed at the time.  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I should probably admit to being very low-key triggered by the HIV tangent here.  That's wildly unfair to the people in this thread, all of whom are good dudes.  Especially Alex P Keaton and The Football Freak.  This discussion is snagging an old trip-wire that I had forgotten about.

There was a time like 9 months or so ago when I was talking with people in the FFA covid-19 thread about mask mandates.  That thread used to be one of the highest-traffic threads in the FFA, but obviously it dropped off a lot once the pandemic died down.  Anyway, some folks in the thread were arguing that triple-vaccinated people should be required to wear masks, and I was arguing the other side.  Somebody made the observation that I was being "selfish" about it, and at first I didn't think anything of it.  But then like an hour later or so I was like hey wait a second, I went an entire year without human contact and I didn't complain once.  #### you and the horse you road in on buddy.  It was one of those things where somebody lobs a lazy accusation that isn't true, is actually the opposite of the truth, and you know that with 100% certainty.  It's a little hard not to be set off by that sort of thing even when it's strangers or even friendly people from the internet.

This thing about how we all thought that only gay people got AIDS is kind of similar.  That's not only not my reality, it's actually the opposite of my reality.  If there was a tagline for AIDS in my word, it was "AIDS: This Is Not At All a Gay Thing Despite What You May Have Heard."  I feel (irrationally) insulted by having the other POV attributed to me, but it's also strangely insulting to my parents, my other family members, folks at church, all of my teachers, the media at the time, etc.

I know this is all slightly irrational and I don't hold it against any posters here or anything because I know they don't mean anything by it and so I should just get over it.  Just commenting.   

 

[Battersbox]

99% of cases are currently in men who have sex with men. Seems like a fantastic opportunity to stamp this out before it spreads amongst all facets of the population. 

If our leaders were as willing to close bath houses and sex raves as they were to close schools and playgrounds we might have a chance. My guess is the fear of offending the armies of LGBTQ voters will prevent any meaningful measures from going into place in time.

 

[The Football Freak]

I should probably admit to being very low-key triggered by the HIV tangent here.  That's wildly unfair to the people in this thread, all of whom are good dudes.  Especially Alex P Keaton and The Football Freak.  This discussion is snagging an old trip-wire that I had forgotten about.

There was a time like 9 months or so ago when I was talking with people in the FFA covid-19 thread about mask mandates.  That thread used to be one of the highest-traffic threads in the FFA, but obviously it dropped off a lot once the pandemic died down.  Anyway, some folks in the thread were arguing that triple-vaccinated people should be required to wear masks, and I was arguing the other side.  Somebody made the observation that I was being "selfish" about it, and at first I didn't think anything of it.  But then like an hour later or so I was like hey wait a second, I went an entire year without human contact and I didn't complain once.  #### you and the horse you road in on buddy.  It was one of those things where somebody lobs a lazy accusation that isn't true, is actually the opposite of the truth, and you know that with 100% certainty.  It's a little hard not to be set off by that sort of thing even when it's strangers or even friendly people from the internet.

This thing about how we all thought that only gay people got AIDS is kind of similar.  That's not only not my reality, it's actually the opposite of my reality.  If there was a tagline for AIDS in my word, it was "AIDS: This Is Not At All a Gay Thing Despite What You May Have Heard."  I feel (irrationally) insulted by having the other POV attributed to me, but it's also strangely insulting to my parents, my other family members, folks at church, all of my teachers, the media at the time, etc.

I know this is all slightly irrational and I don't hold it against any posters here or anything because I know they don't mean anything by it and so I should just get over it.  Just commenting.   

Fair enough, man. I think of you as a very high-quality person, so I certainly wasn’t trying to say you were some kind of bigot. I sincerely apologize to give that impression. I think I get triggered in the opposite direction, as I have always known about GRID, and have been horrified by the name for decades.The area I was in sounds like populated by MUCH less cool people than yourself. I apologize for any tone, it easy to lose perspective sometimes. Your post makes a ton of sense, and I deleted my response to your other response. This one feels more correct. I completely see your point.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If our leaders were as willing to close bath houses and sex raves as they were to close schools and playgrounds we might have a chance. 

Obviously this isn't going to happen.  And to be clear, I don't want to happen.  It didn't bother me all that much when people went out to bars during the covid pandemic.  If people enjoy sex raves and want to roll the dice, what do I care?  I never cared before, why start now, etc.  

But yes, I am making a note of the fact that we were expected to cancel weddings and funerals, leave loved ones to die alone in hospitals, and we robbed kids of 1-2 years of schooling but all of us know that the sex raves will go on as scheduled because those people matter and people like me don't. 

And the people in charge of the CDC and FDA still have their jobs.  The people who signed that stupid letter about how SARS-CoV-2 won't infect you if you're protesting for the right cause still hold their academic positions.  No accountability whatsoever.

 

[Battersbox]

Obviously this isn't going to happen.  And to be clear, I don't want to happen.  It didn't bother me all that much when people went out to bars during the covid pandemic.  If people enjoy sex raves and want to roll the dice, what do I care?  I never cared before, why start now, etc.  

But yes, I am making a note of the fact that we were expected to cancel weddings and funerals, leave loved ones to die alone in hospitals, and we robbed kids of 1-2 years of schooling but all of us know that the sex raves will go on as scheduled because those people matter and people like me don't. 

And the people in charge of the CDC and FDA still have their jobs.  The people who signed that stupid letter about how SARS-CoV-2 won't infect you if you're protesting for the right cause still hold their academic positions.  No accountability whatsoever.

I doubt 'banning' sex raves would do anything anyway. People aren't going to stop having sex--especially the demographic of young single homosexual males.

Targeted awareness and education should absolutely be our doctrine however. Pearl clutching about stigmatizing the gay population will only harm our response. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

And the people in charge of the CDC and FDA still have their jobs.  The people who signed that stupid letter about how SARS-CoV-2 won't infect you if you're protesting for the right cause still hold their academic positions.  No accountability whatsoever.

As I think about it, the people who I'm reminded of are the left-wingers who were all mad that nobody went to prison or anything after the 2008 financial crisis.  Now, for the record, I still don't know that anybody in particular did anything wrong back then -- that was more a weird systemic issue than anything else.  But that isn't the point.  I can definitely see now where somebody in 2010 might have been looking around wondering why there was no reckoning among the people who were supposed to be manning the posts when the financial crisis hit.  And that person was probably pretty hot under the collar about it.

If you're a lefty FBG who made some salty post a decade ago about how we never held anybody accountable for the financial crisis, and I mocked you for it, I apologize.  I get why you felt that way now, and it was a failure of imagination on my part not to get it back then.

 

[Max Power]

Obviously this isn't going to happen.  And to be clear, I don't want to happen.  It didn't bother me all that much when people went out to bars during the covid pandemic.  If people enjoy sex raves and want to roll the dice, what do I care?  I never cared before, why start now, etc.  

But yes, I am making a note of the fact that we were expected to cancel weddings and funerals, leave loved ones to die alone in hospitals, and we robbed kids of 1-2 years of schooling but all of us know that the sex raves will go on as scheduled because those people matter and people like me don't. 

And the people in charge of the CDC and FDA still have their jobs.  The people who signed that stupid letter about how SARS-CoV-2 won't infect you if you're protesting for the right cause still hold their academic positions.  No accountability whatsoever.

I must have missed the letter, but agree there was that sentiment. A link would be good.

I'm not a CDC fan at all, but we're at an inflection point where we need to either trust these people or not. Anything less is a dereliction of their position. 

I want a CDC that offers the best advise but can admit their position isnt absolute, we dont silence dissenting opinions, and can entertain alternative treatment options.

 

[Whyatt]

99% of cases are currently in men who have sex with men. Seems like a fantastic opportunity to stamp this out before it spreads amongst all facets of the population. 

If our leaders were as willing to close bath houses and sex raves as they were to close schools and playgrounds we might have a chance. My guess is the fear of offending the armies of LGBTQ voters will prevent any meaningful measures from going into place in time.

Your point is worth discussion. This research says 95% of cases are transmitted from male gay sex. It’s no surprise that’s a high risk behavior.

 

[Rich Conway]

As I think about it, the people who I'm reminded of are the left-wingers who were all mad that nobody went to prison or anything after the 2008 financial crisis.  Now, for the record, I still don't know that anybody in particular did anything wrong back then -- that was more a weird systemic issue than anything else.  But that isn't the point.  I can definitely see now where somebody in 2010 might have been looking around wondering why there was no reckoning among the people who were supposed to be manning the posts when the financial crisis hit.  And that person was probably pretty hot under the collar about it.

I don't think this is specific to the crisis of 2008.  It's not exactly a secret that ultra-rich people don't generally go to prison for financial crimes.  Usually, they pay a fine that amounts to a percentage of their profits and everyone calls it a day.

 

[Terminalxylem]

This is the text from the CDC, describing how monkey pox spreads:

Monkeypox spreads in different ways. The virus can spread from person-to-person through:

direct contact with the infectious rash, scabs, or body fluids

respiratory secretions during prolonged, face-to-face contact, or during intimate physical contact, such as kissing, cuddling, or sex

touching items (such as clothing or linens) that previously touched the infectious rash or body fluids

pregnant people can spread the virus to their fetus through the placenta

It’s also possible for people to get monkeypox from infected animals, either by being scratched or bitten by the animal or by preparing or eating meat or using products from an infected animal.

How would you like it amended? Would you prefer graphic detail about the risk of anal-receptive vs. anal-insertive vs. vaginal  vs. oral sex? Or mention that more sex partners increases the risk? Do you believe the CDC, or anyone, precisely knows those risks?

FTR, gay men were (and are) horribly stigmatized for HIV/AIDS, and people absolutely believed it was a disease of gays and drug users, despite most cases occurring outside those communities.  

Given our country’s history of homophobia and remaining uncertainty about contemporary transmission of monkeypox, imo it’s perfectly reasonable to tread lightly when discussing the role males who have sex with males play in its spread. It’s not like the CDC is endorsing gay orgies under any circumstances.

 

[Max Power]

This is the text from the CDC, describing how monkey pox spreads:

How would you like it amended? Would you prefer graphic detail about the risk of anal-receptive vs. anal-insertive vs. vaginal  vs. oral sex? Or mention that more sex partners increases the risk? Do you believe the CDC, or anyone, precisely knows those risks?

FTR, gay men were (and are) horribly stigmatized for HIV/AIDS, and people absolutely believed it was a disease of gays and drug users, despite most cases occurring outside those communities.  

Given our country’s history of homophobia and remaining uncertainty about contemporary transmission of monkeypox, imo it’s perfectly reasonable to tread lightly when discussing the role males who have sex with males play in its spread. It’s not like the CDC is endorsing gay orgies under any circumstances.

How did kids catch it?

Should I wear a mask around gay people?

Basic stuff

 

[Battersbox]

This is the text from the CDC, describing how monkey pox spreads:

How would you like it amended? Would you prefer graphic detail about the risk of anal-receptive vs. anal-insertive vs. vaginal  vs. oral sex? Or mention that more sex partners increases the risk? Do you believe the CDC, or anyone, precisely knows those risks?

FTR, gay men were (and are) horribly stigmatized for HIV/AIDS, and people absolutely believed it was a disease of gays and drug users, despite most cases occurring outside those communities.  

Given our country’s history of homophobia and remaining uncertainty about contemporary transmission of monkeypox, imo it’s perfectly reasonable to tread lightly when discussing the role males who have sex with males play in its spread. It’s not like the CDC is endorsing gay orgies under any circumstances.

The cases are almost solely in men who have sex with men. That will change eventually. Seems like targeting those folks now, while it's early, is worthwhile.

Remember the refrain of 'kids are resilient!' when you were advocating locking them out of their schools? Are gays not also resilient?

A risk of further stigmatizing the gay community is worth not letting this get out of hand. Moreover, I would argue a little stigma now could say the gay community a LOT of stigma later if this truly gets out of hand.

 

[Max Power]

The cases are almost solely in men who have sex with men. That will change eventually. Seems like targeting those folks now, while it's early, is worthwhile.

Remember the refrain of 'kids are resilient!' when you were advocating locking them out of their schools? Are gays not also resilient?

A risk of further stigmatizing the gay community is worth not letting this get out of hand. Moreover, I would argue a little stigma now could say the gay community a LOT of stigma later if this truly gets out of hand.

Why do you think that will change? 

 

[Terminalxylem]

How did kids catch it?

Should I wear a mask around gay people?

Basic stuff

Unsure, but likely direct contact with infected lesions, or items exposed to such lesions for an extended period, like clothing or bedding.

There’s no good evidence for routine masking around infected people, regardless of their sexual preference, let alone masking around all gay people. Moreover, you’re unlikely to always know when you encounter males who have sex with males. 

But there’s room to acknowledge we don’t know everything about the latest flavor of monkeypox, and it may spread in ways that aren’t immediately obvious. In healthcare settings where prolonged exposure is possible, we err on the side of caution with gown/gloves/N95 mask/face shield, similar to what is utilized when treating patients infected with SARS-CoV-2.

If you’re concerned, no one could fault you for wearing a mask, practicing good hand hygiene and social distancing. And lay off anonymous sex raves for a while. As a side benefit, you’ll reduce your risk of covid and sexually transmitted infections, too.

 

[Battersbox]

Why do you think that will change? 

Because gays interact with people who aren't gay. People share towels, linens, etc. Some gays have sex with people who aren't gay on occasion. 

Just because this is spreading easiest via gay sex doesn't mean that's the only way it spreads.

 

[Terminalxylem]

The cases are almost solely in men who have sex with men. That will change eventually. Seems like targeting those folks now, while it's early, is worthwhile.

Remember the refrain of 'kids are resilient!' when you were advocating locking them out of their schools? Are gays not also resilient?

A risk of further stigmatizing the gay community is worth not letting this get out of hand. Moreover, I would argue a little stigma now could say the gay community a LOT of stigma later if this truly gets out of hand.

I’m not allowed to mention kids, so I can’t compare their resiliency to MSMs. But I’ll remind you, some of those kids are gay.

I don’t think it’s a mystery in the gay community how many of the initial monkeypox cases were contracted. What additional benefit you hope to gain by calling MSM out specifically, especially considering how this strategy hampered early efforts to address HIV?

 

[Max Power]

Unsure, but likely direct contact with infected lesions, or items exposed to such lesions for an extended period, like clothing or bedding.

There’s no good evidence for routine masking around infected people, regardless of their sexual preference, let alone masking around all gay people. Moreover, you’re unlikely to always know when you encounter males who have sex with males. 

But there’s room to acknowledge we don’t know everything about the latest flavor of monkeypox, and it may spread in ways that aren’t immediately obvious. In healthcare settings where prolonged exposure is possible, we err on the side of caution with gown/gloves/N95 mask/face shield, similar to what is utilized when treating patients infected with SARS-CoV-2.

If you’re concerned, no one could fault you for wearing a mask, practicing good hand hygiene and social distancing. And lay off anonymous sex raves for a while. As a side benefit, you’ll reduce your risk of covid and sexually transmitted infections, too.

I appreciate the thorough reply. When an area like the UK says they have no evidence it transfers through respitory droplets, would you still advise wearing a mask and social distancing?

 

[Max Power]

Because gays interact with people who aren't gay. People share towels, linens, etc. Some gays have sex with people who aren't gay on occasion. 

Just because this is spreading easiest via gay sex doesn't mean that's the only way it spreads.

How gays interact with people is a wide spread... where does it start and end? 

I know I'm being simple in the question, but should I wear a mask.around a gay person to reduce my risk or does it not matter?

 

[the moops]

@MaxPower

Just an FYI - the way you are asking your questions and the type of questions you are asking make some people question your motives. Whether intentional or not, it appears that you are questioning the decisions of the parents of these children because they are gay.

I think I know you well enough in this fake world to disagree with that take, but the cryptic way you are bringing these points up, again and again, has me questioning it.

 

[Battersbox]

How gays interact with people is a wide spread... where does it start and end? 

I know I'm being simple in the question, but should I wear a mask.around a gay person to reduce my risk or does it not matter?

Well, I doubt this spreads as easily as Covid, so if you wouldn't wear a mask around someone to avoid Covid I don't know why you'd wear one to avoid this either, whether the people you are around are gay or not.

The virus thus far is in men who have sex with men. But remember, it's still a tiny fraction of the gay community who have contracted this. Less than 1% certainly. Likely far less. The odds you'd have a conversation with a gay man who is positive for this virus right now is virtually zero. 

I would think the gay community (and all communities) would want it to stay that way. 

 

[Max Power]

@MaxPower

Just an FYI - the way you are asking your questions and the type of questions you are asking make some people question your motives. Whether intentional or not, it appears that you are questioning the decisions of the parents of these children because they are gay.

I think I know you well enough in this fake world to disagree with that take, but the cryptic way you are bringing these points up, again and again, has me questioning it.

Please break it down for me. It seems like a lot of people want to infer things from my questions.

I'm stating facts here..we go from A to Z and I'm not sure how. My questioning may imply things, but no one is answering the questions at hand. Instead it's an attack on "how could someone think that". 

Why did the two kids who were diagnosed with monkeypox come from contact with the gay community?

Fine, call me whatever you need to. I'm a homophobic hate filled monster. Now let's figure out monkey pox. Is this transferred through respitory droplets? How long is the exposure? 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I should probably admit to being very low-key triggered by the HIV tangent here.  That's wildly unfair to the people in this thread, all of whom are good dudes.  Especially Alex P Keaton and The Football Freak.  This discussion is snagging an old trip-wire that I had forgotten about.

There was a time like 9 months or so ago when I was talking with people in the FFA covid-19 thread about mask mandates.  That thread used to be one of the highest-traffic threads in the FFA, but obviously it dropped off a lot once the pandemic died down.  Anyway, some folks in the thread were arguing that triple-vaccinated people should be required to wear masks, and I was arguing the other side.  Somebody made the observation that I was being "selfish" about it, and at first I didn't think anything of it.  But then like an hour later or so I was like hey wait a second, I went an entire year without human contact and I didn't complain once.  #### you and the horse you road in on buddy.  It was one of those things where somebody lobs a lazy accusation that isn't true, is actually the opposite of the truth, and you know that with 100% certainty.  It's a little hard not to be set off by that sort of thing even when it's strangers or even friendly people from the internet.

This thing about how we all thought that only gay people got AIDS is kind of similar.  That's not only not my reality, it's actually the opposite of my reality.  If there was a tagline for AIDS in my word, it was "AIDS: This Is Not At All a Gay Thing Despite What You May Have Heard."  I feel (irrationally) insulted by having the other POV attributed to me, but it's also strangely insulting to my parents, my other family members, folks at church, all of my teachers, the media at the time, etc.

I know this is all slightly irrational and I don't hold it against any posters here or anything because I know they don't mean anything by it and so I should just get over it.  Just commenting.   

Very much appreciate this post.  To be abundantly clear, in the mid-80s many of the people in my hometown (which wasn’t exactly a very worldly place) didn’t think AIDS was “a gay disease.”  But enough people across the country did hold those views….that it was necessary (as you point out) to have a campaign to combat AIDS myths.  I make no claim that every person believed those myths, and certainly don’t attribute them to one political party or any other demographic.

As much as this is a low-key triggering topic for you (in the opposite direction) it is a moderate-level triggering issue for me.  The monkeypox comments showing up in some corners of social media are absolutely reminiscent of the code language used during the early days of AIDS.  I have too many good friends (upper 50s and 60s gay men) who lived through that era — many of whom lost life partners and close friends.   It’s painful to see them relive the stigmatization they faced so many years ago.

Of course, from a public heath perspective, we should also take rational steps to slow this thing down.  But IMO we can do that without some of the crude suggestions and innuendo floating out there.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful note above.  Can completely appreciate where you are coming from.

I apologize to everyone in here for taking the thread off track with various diatribes.  IK’s post made me realize this topic was impacting me on a deeper level.  In particular I apologize to @Max Power for making assumptions about his message or intent.  There was a different and better way to have that conversation.

I’m going to duck out now and go wash all the linen in my house. This topic makes me feel like I have monkeypox lingering in every freaking room in the house.

 

[Battersbox]

I’m not allowed to mention kids, so I can’t compare their resiliency to MSMs. But I’ll remind you, some of those kids are gay.

I don’t think it’s a mystery in the gay community how many of the initial monkeypox cases were contracted. What additional benefit you hope to gain by calling MSM out specifically, especially considering how this strategy hampered early efforts to address HIV?

Well, I'd hope to gain the benefit of stopping he spread of this before it infects a significant portion of the gay community, and probably all other communities thereafter. 

Are you really suggesting that attempting to control spread of this is a non-starter? Are you really suggesting focusing efforts at this early stage on the gay community isn't worthwhile? Should we instead have a less-targeted approach (which would be less effective by definition) to avoid offending the sensibilities of a few people? Should we focus our efforts on married hetero middle age folks who practice monogamy (or close to it) who are at zero risk right now? Or should we focus efforts on the group that has 99% of the infections worldwide at this point?

You were advocating for closing down the world to prevent a virus which appears to spread far, far, far easier than this one. Not only that, you were advocating for it after it had already infected millions of people. The chances of success were long at best, even under the best of scenarios. The argument for that was 'we really don't know what we're dealing with'. That argument persisted for lots of people for a long time. 

Now by your own admission you just said we really don't know how this current flavor of Monkey Pox spreads. But in this case, your thought is we can't risk offending or stigmatizing a subgroup even though we have a far better chance to actually nip this in the bud (far less spread at this point, and apparently far less contagious than Covid). 

I don't get you, I really don't.

 

[the moops]

. 

Why did the two kids who were diagnosed with monkeypox come from contact with the gay community?

Why? It appears that they were the children on one or both of these gay men.

What's the confusion?

 

[Max Power]

Well, I doubt this spreads as easily as Covid, so if you wouldn't wear a mask around someone to avoid Covid I don't know why you'd wear one to avoid this either, whether the people you are around are gay or not.

The virus thus far is in men who have sex with men. But remember, it's still a tiny fraction of the gay community who have contracted this. Less than 1% certainly. Likely far less. The odds you'd have a conversation with a gay man who is positive for this virus right now is virtually zero. 

I would think the gay community (and all communities) would want it to stay that way. 

While I totally agree with you. This is now a global health emergency. We need to treat it as such.