koreansteve
Footballguy
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts ...not updated yet but should be updated by this evening.
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Kenny Stills Train ..... (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Chaser1439
- Start date
JackReacher
Footballguy
Watched the game and he appeared to be fourth in the pecking order after Graham, Moore and Toon. Made no sense to me as he makes plays given the opportunity, but that is the risk of playing a Saints wide.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
and meachem
outside of Graham, its a true WRBC, so good luck picking his big games
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
As a Saints fan I can see that you take your time out to watch Sports center highlights.
Care to put your $$$ where your mouth is? As a Saints fan, you should know that Stills only got playing time because Joseph Morgan tore his ACL. Stills caught 32 passes for 641 yards and 5 Touchdowns. He averaged 20 yards per catch.
Outside of the deep ball, which I give more credit to Drew Brees than anyone, I don't see it.
You think he's going to be in on all 2WR sets?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I am not so sure about this, original plan may have been to have Morgan and Stills in there, Meachem might have been the Morgan fill-in. And it's hard to say what effect Moore's absences had.
In terms of next year, we also have to see how Morgan comes back, it's no given he will have all his speed and moves and he still had not had his breakout.
Remains to be seen who stays after Colston and Stills. Payton's cooking something.
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SproutDaddy
Footballguy
Remember Lesean McCoy? And what does $ have to do with anything? Stills is nothing like Meacham. Stills had a more prolific college career and his hands are much better. I have no problem with him lining up in 2 wr sets. The Saints won't be signing any big name fa. Graham is a much bigger priority. I'll trust my 7 years of not missing a Saints game. Stills is fine. Situation could be worse. I still see them drafting a wr in the first 3 rounds.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
Morgan is more like Meacham.
saintfool
Dead sexy
stinky bait but i'll bite...
stills is not the vertical option that henderson and meachem were. he has their speed and better hands. he's willing to catch in the middle of the field, make a play on the ball and take a hit. stills is playing up to his potential.
speculating on morgan vs stills is asinine. morgan's injury gave stills opportunity but most rookies play behind. they also usually don't start to show up, especially in a complicated offense like NO's, until late in the season. stills did just that.
now, what is the wager?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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saintfool
Dead sexy
Meh. It's about the cost of the tender here. They're just letting him hit the market but will likely make an offer for less than that.
Faust
MVP
What is Stills' absolute ceiling? Lance Moore's 2008? (79 catches for 928 yards and 10 TDs). With the drafting of Cooks he looks like a better version of Lance Moore but with more competition for targets.
That'd be typically good for a back-end WR2, which has value, but I have a hard time getting too excited. Like T.Y. Hilton I think he might be a better real life player than fantasy player.
That'd be typically good for a back-end WR2, which has value, but I have a hard time getting too excited. Like T.Y. Hilton I think he might be a better real life player than fantasy player.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
gonna be real interesting with moore and sproles gone to see how this offensive evolves with Cooks & Stills
abbottjamesr
Footballguy
I think Stills could be the #2 WR on the team. I agree with LususV that we are probably looking at back end WR2 numbers (66/950/7 is my projection) but currently his ADP is around 108.
I like these types of guys in the late rounds of re-drafts, where you don't have much invested and if they aren't getting the targets after a couple weeks you can drop them for the waiver wire darlings. If they perform as expected you have great depth and if he becomes the next Colston of the team and goes 95/1250/11 you got a WR1 for a 9th round pick.
I like these types of guys in the late rounds of re-drafts, where you don't have much invested and if they aren't getting the targets after a couple weeks you can drop them for the waiver wire darlings. If they perform as expected you have great depth and if he becomes the next Colston of the team and goes 95/1250/11 you got a WR1 for a 9th round pick.
Warpig
Footballguy
In my mind, Cooks = Tavon Austin...basically just a gimmick player that can add to your special teams mostly. I don't think he'll be a consistent contributor like Stills can be.
I'm not sure what people are expecting from Cooks but I'd start with Tavon's numbers as a good barometer. Might get some end arounds, bubble screens, etc. for scores, but I wouldn't expect a big impact via the passing game.
I think Kenny Stills is good for 70 or more receptions for 1200 yds and 8 tds. I still have nightmares of him lighting up that Florida State secondary 2 years ago and FSU had a great secondary. And now he's on a team with Drew Brees throwing him the ball.
I'm not sure what people are expecting from Cooks but I'd start with Tavon's numbers as a good barometer. Might get some end arounds, bubble screens, etc. for scores, but I wouldn't expect a big impact via the passing game.
I think Kenny Stills is good for 70 or more receptions for 1200 yds and 8 tds. I still have nightmares of him lighting up that Florida State secondary 2 years ago and FSU had a great secondary. And now he's on a team with Drew Brees throwing him the ball.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I dont know, teams generally dont trade up for a special teamer.
I think with Colston slowing down two, the future could be now for both Stills and Cooks being the main cogs in the O
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Couple major differences between Austin and Cooks (aside from physical):
Peyton vs Fisher/Schotty as a playcaller
Brees vs Bradford as a QB & playcaller
Sproles in 2011 put up an additional 63 touches, 523 yards, and 7 TDs from scrimmage over his last year in SD. He had 120+ touches last year, 170+ touches in 2011. Austin would be terrific in the NO offense, I think Cooks will be great as well.
It's weird but the Saints fell to 10th in scoring last year, usually they are top 5, so despite their rep I think their players could actually be undervalued this year.
Phenix
Footballguy
Graham? To even forget about him and not consider him in the long term plans seems like you are trying to pump up players of which you own.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Welcome back from your suspension.
Jimmy Graham's role in the offense is a given, certainly the two young WR can carve out a niche for themselves. Jimmy wont catch every pass and every TD
thanks for you input though
Phenix
Footballguy
Ahh, it wont be my last, a lot of sensitive people view these boards and get upset with the harsh reality I provide.
You were the one who forgot Graham, I would come back with "his role is a given" especially after you just expressed that the main cogs were Stills and Cooks not Graham. Say which one do you own?
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
karmarooster
Footballguy
Dude, Graham is the clear WR1 on this team. Given that it's the Saints, and they have supported at various times over the past couple of years a few other fantasy-worthy players (Bush, Sproles, Moore, Meachem, Henderson), there's clearly still room for both Stills and Cooks.
Personally, I see Stills as more of the Henderson/Meachem (but better) player who will test the safeties deep. Probably not too consistent in terms of targets/receptions, and certain to have a few down games, but he'll make the most of his targets. Was very efficient last year with his targets, but I don't think he's going to jump up to a 100 target guy on the outside, only had 51 targets last year, but converted that to 32/600/5. Very Impressive, but limited by volume.
Cooks I see as a mashup of Bush/Sproles/Moore. A Tavon Austin player who will be better than Tavon from his first game - he just plays with a tougher mentality. I would expect the saints to get him involved in as many ways as they can - from the slot, in motion, occasionally from the backfield. Lance Moore had 37/450/2 last year... Sproles added 71/600/2... and PThomas had 77 receptions as well. That's 185 receptions in the area I expect Cooks to operate, and that's without Colston slowly fading away. In short, a PPR monster, who will also be able to get deep better than Moore/Bush/Sproles.
I'm thinking something like 50 receptions, 800-900 yards and 5-8 TDs for Stills, with Cooks pushing 70-80 receptions, 950-1,000 yards, throwing on 25 or so rushes/sweeps/end-arounds. Payton will use Cooks as a weapon in the ways people hoped Tavon would be used last year, but Payton will do so more effectively, and Cooks is just better than Tavon.
Personally, I see Stills as more of the Henderson/Meachem (but better) player who will test the safeties deep. Probably not too consistent in terms of targets/receptions, and certain to have a few down games, but he'll make the most of his targets. Was very efficient last year with his targets, but I don't think he's going to jump up to a 100 target guy on the outside, only had 51 targets last year, but converted that to 32/600/5. Very Impressive, but limited by volume.
Cooks I see as a mashup of Bush/Sproles/Moore. A Tavon Austin player who will be better than Tavon from his first game - he just plays with a tougher mentality. I would expect the saints to get him involved in as many ways as they can - from the slot, in motion, occasionally from the backfield. Lance Moore had 37/450/2 last year... Sproles added 71/600/2... and PThomas had 77 receptions as well. That's 185 receptions in the area I expect Cooks to operate, and that's without Colston slowly fading away. In short, a PPR monster, who will also be able to get deep better than Moore/Bush/Sproles.
I'm thinking something like 50 receptions, 800-900 yards and 5-8 TDs for Stills, with Cooks pushing 70-80 receptions, 950-1,000 yards, throwing on 25 or so rushes/sweeps/end-arounds. Payton will use Cooks as a weapon in the ways people hoped Tavon would be used last year, but Payton will do so more effectively, and Cooks is just better than Tavon.
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saintfool
Dead sexy
I think comparisons to Meachem and/or Henderson are off. Each was a strictly vertical, downfield target for Brees in the scheme. Neither of the were good at working the middle of the field or in traffic. Stills has, to this point, shown himself to be a target in the mid-range game. He has good speed (something like 4.5 at the Combine) and strength to break off a few additional YAC. Don't let the yards per reception fool you.
Phenix
Footballguy
Troll? We will get back to that in a second as anytime someone posts something someone disagrees with, they call them a troll.
Moving on to football discussion, Graham is the only receiving threat you can constantly count on on this team. Not Stills, not Colston, not Meachem, not Moore, not Thomas and not even Sproles. Yes I spoke of past players as it goes to validate the inconsistency of other WRs not named Graham. To much inconsistency all around. Graham is all that matters. Someone can always have a great game from time to time but as long as Graham is on the Saints, your guess is as good as any which WR will have that big game. Cooks and Stills wont be consistent until Graham is gone.
Back to the troll remark, In the leagues we are in Sniffer who has more titles, this troll or you?
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abbottjamesr
Footballguy
To say Graham is the only receiving threat you can consistently count on so there are no other FF relevant players is just short sighted.
Last year Breese threw 648 times of which 141 were to Graham. That leaves 507 targets that did not go to graham. For reference Romo through 535 attempts and Rivers 543 last year and they had FF relevant receivers. You may have heard of Dez Bryant or K. Allen.
Its not unlikely now that sproles and Moore are gone to think that one or maybe even two WR's on the team could see 100-140 targets in this offense. I for one think Stills will see an increase in his targets this year and could be a good WR2 for a low price. If the TDs come and Colston has truly lost a step maybe Stills flirts with WR1 numbers.
Peace
Last year Breese threw 648 times of which 141 were to Graham. That leaves 507 targets that did not go to graham. For reference Romo through 535 attempts and Rivers 543 last year and they had FF relevant receivers. You may have heard of Dez Bryant or K. Allen.
Its not unlikely now that sproles and Moore are gone to think that one or maybe even two WR's on the team could see 100-140 targets in this offense. I for one think Stills will see an increase in his targets this year and could be a good WR2 for a low price. If the TDs come and Colston has truly lost a step maybe Stills flirts with WR1 numbers.
Peace
karmarooster
Footballguy
I agree that Stills looks like a better all-around player at this point in his career than Henderson or Meachem ever did, but I still think he fills that "role" on the offense, which I think is certainly a role given that we've seen at least 2 different players in that role going back to 2006 (Brees' first year in NO). With all of the underneath stuff to the TE, the RBs, and Colston basically being another "slot TE" type, they need someone to test the defense deep or the middle gets too clogged. And Payton has consistently done so.
Henderson's best year: 51/800/2
Meachem's best year: 45/720/9
Henderson has 83 targets that year, after that the most targets either one ever got in a year was around 60. Stills was at 50 targets last year. Assuming that Colston still plays and is effective this year, I think that range of 50-80 targets is what to expect from Stills (with an upside ceiling of MAYBE 100 targets). No way he gets 140 targets with this offense featuring Graham, Colston, Cooks, and likely still heavily targeting the RBs.
I'm a fan of Stills and like him in a best-ball format, but 140 targets and 70/1200/8 numbers are just not realistic - at least this year, with Colston still around.
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Bronx Bomber
Footballguy
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FUBAR
Footballguy
Obviously we'll need to see what happens but I'd think if all goes according to plan, cooks will be the go to after Graham in a couple years. Stills will be the deep threat. Not a guy I'd trust to start and get points each week but great in best ball or if you want to take risk with your WR3/4 slot. Similar to Hilton in that regard.
buddhacwru
Footballguy
Bumping this up.
Where do people have Stills in their leagues? I think he is good in a best ball format not standard fantasy. I'm not sure I love his consistency. And right now he's got quad issues too.
Where do people have Stills in their leagues? I think he is good in a best ball format not standard fantasy. I'm not sure I love his consistency. And right now he's got quad issues too.
He's on the end of my bench in a 0.5 PPR. Thinking of dropping him for a Hurns, John Brown or D. Moore type. I don't know if I'd ever be able to start him unless I had to, anyway.
Is this guy officially redraft fodder now? Outside of Best Ball leagues, is the Cooks emergence mean he's only good for a couple of good games, all of which will happen on our benches? Or does he get his spot back when he returns? I'm also just generally concerned his injury will nag him all year.
Houston turmOiler
Footballguy
Interested in thoughts on him since the bye. Seems to be earning a bigger role and thinking about adding him to fill a couple bye weeks
Warpig
Footballguy
He's pretty much a crap shoot. Depending on your league, he's barely startable.
One week it will be Cooks with a big game. The next it might be Colston. The next it might be Meachem...etc. Brees spreads the ball around too much for any of the WRs to be a must play. He also throws to the RBs a lot. So unless you are in a deep league with deep roster spots, he's not really worth the trouble in my mind. Like trying to chase the points in the NE RB backfield.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Stills is one of the most underrated WRs in FF. He hasn't scratched the surface of what he's capable of in that offense. Stills was hurt most of camp & got off to a slow start this season, but he's got the talent to be their top WR.
TheCommish
Footballguy
I've got the same bye week guys, but I'm leaning toward starting Crowell over Stills at my flex. I do like those MNF games, though.
