Thanks. We'll take a look there but in general, it'll be as it's always been here and how almost all communities I know of operate with the community run by non staff folks generating great content and discussion.
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Joe Needs Feedback - How can the Shark Pool Be More Useful and Better? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
I know you have a poll on another thread, but at this moment - 43% of the respondents who frequent SP do not purchase a subscription.
So what you've done is taken the best content producers and fenced them off for 4 out of every 9 SP users. Now I understand the business model has been to cultivate content you would want to pay for by using the SP as a tool to unearth it. If the latter half of the statement were true, this thread wouldn't be here. Is the connection from your fenced content to the SP strong enough?
Hankmoody
Footballguy
The heart of the problem is that there isn't enough active board moderation. The experts and leaders you are looking to don't have any power to make the corrections you're asking for. If someone creates a duplicate thread or an AC question it sometimes hangs around for days before it's moved/merged. During prime season there will be half a dozen posts on the first page alone that don't belong there. When reporting the thread doesn't get any action the only result left to us is to take matters into our own hands. Sometimes we're nice about it, sometimes the frustration shows through more clearly. Mob mentality gets momentum fast. This isn't an attack on you or your efforts but this board clearly moves faster than the current moderation membership is able to keep up with.
I don't know what the interface here looks like but I moderated a board many years ago and it took about 7 seconds to move a thread to the appropriate forum or merge appropriate thread. I got reports of every action every moderator account took and an IP lookup too to determine where the action came from in the case of a shared account. I had a few guys and gals I had helping and mostly they moved stuff to the off-topic forum or locked spammy threads. There was a control panel with email alert options so I could make sure no one was going rogue or getting overly touchy.
Your rules thread hasn't been updated since 2005 and makes no mention of "how to", only "what not to". This is the 5 second generation, if you want them to post a certain subset of posts in the AC you need to detail them out and you need a link to it because they aren't going to go searching for it. If you have certain criteria for when and when not to create new posts that needs to be detailed out. As I read through that post it's way too long and 1/2 of it is about images that we can no longer post.
Also, for the love of god figure out how to move the AC Forum link. Right below it is the "Create New Post" button that creates a new post in the Shark Pool so it's a super-easy way for a new guy to get off to a bad start. I've been posting on message boards since, well a long time ago, and can nearly guarantee if I were a new poster here I would still not get that one right the first time.
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We'll update the rules.
For moving or editing threads please report it. But also know not every request is instantly done. We get a lot of reports from people who want to hyper police every thread like where anytime a person asks an opinion they want it moved to AC. That's not happening.
Side note - the mods are real people too. I'm always amazed at how many reported posts come with a super rude message. They likely should treat every report the same but I'll be honest when someone ( @SaintsInDome2006 always does this) reports something with a helpful comment, it's a lot more likely to be acted on.
Thanks for the feedback on you having trouble posting in the AC. I've never heard anyone say that but I can see how it might be confusing. Not sure what the board software let's us do there but we'll look.
For moving or editing threads please report it. But also know not every request is instantly done. We get a lot of reports from people who want to hyper police every thread like where anytime a person asks an opinion they want it moved to AC. That's not happening.
Side note - the mods are real people too. I'm always amazed at how many reported posts come with a super rude message. They likely should treat every report the same but I'll be honest when someone ( @SaintsInDome2006 always does this) reports something with a helpful comment, it's a lot more likely to be acted on.
Thanks for the feedback on you having trouble posting in the AC. I've never heard anyone say that but I can see how it might be confusing. Not sure what the board software let's us do there but we'll look.
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Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
Why not keep the useless clutter off the front page by creating a sub-forum that deals with commissioner questions/league rules/questions about your league. There seems to be a bunch of that on the front page. Not sure why it's allowed to be continued.
Sometimes these types of threads can be useful. It's a gray area though. In general, the defining idea is "is this interesting / useful / helpful to others?". If it is, it can stay. Things like how to make a draft more fun or how to move from a redraft to a keeper or auction. Or pros and cons of IDP. That kind of stuff. If it's just about your league, it belongs in the Assistant Coach.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
As a current non dynasty guy...I'd like to see the Dynasty Threads have their own section....seems like every time you go to the SP....Dynasty Threads are dominating the first page...kinda sucks sifting through those....
Agree having more Staffer participation would be nice in the SP....but I also know you want people to pay for Staffer thoughts/opinions so you may actually discourage them from doing so....kinda of a catch 22....I get it....but Staffer participation probably is the one thing that would improve the SP the most....maybe a compromise where there is a section only subscribers have access to that has increased staffer participation...
because I 100% agree with @Sweet Loveabove where he says....yeah it's easy for me to look at the rankings and see you have Westbrook at 26 and Anderson at 27....but I want to know why, especially if I am deciding between those EXACT two for my last starter....you would be surprised how often that type of scenario actually happens....I know Bloom kinda of takes the time to help with stuff like this in his Ask Bloom thread, but other than that, we don't see a ton of explanation/justification for the rankings....even as a subscriber.....I know you don't want strictly a WDIS mentality dominating your board, but for those of us that usually draft a pretty good team, the WDIS part becomes crucial throughout the year (its my weakness, I seem to always start the wrong guy out of two closley ranked)....and as a subscriber I would like to see more staff participation and justification of rankings....on any given week, I don't really want the opinions of the masses in the AC forum....I want it from the "experts"....
Agree having more Staffer participation would be nice in the SP....but I also know you want people to pay for Staffer thoughts/opinions so you may actually discourage them from doing so....kinda of a catch 22....I get it....but Staffer participation probably is the one thing that would improve the SP the most....maybe a compromise where there is a section only subscribers have access to that has increased staffer participation...
because I 100% agree with @Sweet Loveabove where he says....yeah it's easy for me to look at the rankings and see you have Westbrook at 26 and Anderson at 27....but I want to know why, especially if I am deciding between those EXACT two for my last starter....you would be surprised how often that type of scenario actually happens....I know Bloom kinda of takes the time to help with stuff like this in his Ask Bloom thread, but other than that, we don't see a ton of explanation/justification for the rankings....even as a subscriber.....I know you don't want strictly a WDIS mentality dominating your board, but for those of us that usually draft a pretty good team, the WDIS part becomes crucial throughout the year (its my weakness, I seem to always start the wrong guy out of two closley ranked)....and as a subscriber I would like to see more staff participation and justification of rankings....on any given week, I don't really want the opinions of the masses in the AC forum....I want it from the "experts"....
massraider
Footballguy
It's a real bummer about the Shark Pool.
Progress, what you gonna do?
Twitter has made the audience here too small for many.
Don't kill yourself trying to prop it up, Joe. Other successful sites have much worse forums. Doesn't really matter to the business I don't think.
I mean, it's clear the forums are getting older. One look at FFA will tell you that.
The youth have Twitter and DFS. It's a different model now.
Progress, what you gonna do?
Twitter has made the audience here too small for many.
Don't kill yourself trying to prop it up, Joe. Other successful sites have much worse forums. Doesn't really matter to the business I don't think.
I mean, it's clear the forums are getting older. One look at FFA will tell you that.
The youth have Twitter and DFS. It's a different model now.
Faust
MVP
@Joe Bryant - I wasn’t able to send an email yesterday due to some other commitments in my schedule but I will try to get one out tonight.
Cheers,
Faust
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
@Joe Bryant......bump as another 10+ Dynasty threads on first page and then another 10+ on second page....I understand Dynasty dominates this time of year but even at other times it takes over the board....a Dynasty Forum seems appropriate no?....any thoughts on that....tia...As a current non dynasty guy...I'd like to see the Dynasty Threads have their own section....seems like every time you go to the SP....Dynasty Threads are dominating the first page...kinda sucks sifting through those....
Agree having more Staffer participation would be nice in the SP....but I also know you want people to pay for Staffer thoughts/opinions so you may actually discourage them from doing so....kinda of a catch 22....I get it....but Staffer participation probably is the one thing that would improve the SP the most....maybe a compromise where there is a section only subscribers have access to that has increased staffer participation...
because I 100% agree with @Sweet Loveabove where he says....yeah it's easy for me to look at the rankings and see you have Westbrook at 26 and Anderson at 27....but I want to know why, especially if I am deciding between those EXACT two for my last starter....you would be surprised how often that type of scenario actually happens....I know Bloom kinda of takes the time to help with stuff like this in his Ask Bloom thread, but other than that, we don't see a ton of explanation/justification for the rankings....even as a subscriber.....I know you don't want strictly a WDIS mentality dominating your board, but for those of us that usually draft a pretty good team, the WDIS part becomes crucial throughout the year (its my weakness, I seem to always start the wrong guy out of two closley ranked)....and as a subscriber I would like to see more staff participation and justification of rankings....on any given week, I don't really want the opinions of the masses in the AC forum....I want it from the "experts"....
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Jayded
Footballguy
Subtle one: I would appreciate if below the poster's name instead of Gender or physical location if it displayed the poster's favorite team. When reading through a highly active thread you can either get a lot of conjecture from folks that aren't as close to the team locally or may not follow the same local reporters that fans of the team follow, but also eliminates folks creating replies like, "As a ____ fan..." as well.
Deamon
Footballguy
@Joe Bryant, been a pleasant surprise seeing you stick to what people have asked for and seeing you active in the threads. I think it's already made an impact and will even more going forward if you stick with it. Hope to see some of the other guys in here, but it's great to see you following through with what your customer base wanted, and it seems genuine. Thanks!
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think a dynasty forum would make a lot of sense - it will probably kill the redraft forum for most of the year (but I guess that really doesn't matter much).
Deamon
Footballguy
I think you'd get nothing but "You would say that as a ____ fan" or spark more off topic jabs at a person's favourite team. Imagine a Pats fan writing something even in a baseball thread about someone cheating, and how many responses that would get. Also think most people wouldn't put their favourite team down.
I agree the Gender thing is silly though. Assuming 95% in here are male, and it shouldn't matter if they're male or female anyways where it needs to be pointed out.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
@Joe Bryant...requested thoughts on this a couple times earlier...would still like to hear thoughts....tia
Deamon
Footballguy
And having 2 threads for the same player would be silly and dilute both of them. Most of the contest posted on a player is relevant to both dynasty and redraft, and most threads are on players.
Chaka
Footballguy
Most of the official threads also have "Dynasty & Redraft" in their title.
Like I have said a couple times now, I am very wary about any action that will result in a dilution of the Shark Pool.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I disagree with this...as is now the dyno threads dominate the SP right now and sifting through them sucks if you have no interest....and then often in the threads the dyno talk also dominates in terms of long term value, trades. etc....and then you have to sift through that as well....or the opposite to a certain extent the dyno guys have to sift through the redraft stuff that they don't care about....yes there are some parts of the discussion that can maybe be attributed to both....but they really are two separate beasts and the discussion could be more focused...so why not just separate so each shopper can go to the store they need...dilution should not be an issue, in fact I think each thread may get more active participation because as is now, people like me (and others asking for a separate thread) aren't even really taking the time to go into the ones that have Dynasty in the title....in some cases including "redraft" in the title is a waste of time...
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Thanks. I can see the benefit but I'm super fearful of splintering the forum for this. We'll stick to the one forum for now and maybe look at it again in the future. Thanks for the feedback there.
Chaka
Footballguy
It would be easier for me as I only play in one league (redraft) but I think it will be an issue because many posters play in both types of leagues. The dynasty guys have a lot of unique insight and often (typically?) know more about the player in question. Try to make the Shark Pool a safe space for redraft is going to divide time for a lot of the more informed posters. My bet is the SP will suffer for that.
AND all the dyno guys will miss out on my awesome zingers. Y'know like the one about me preferring the Dallas TE who can throw a ball over them mountains!!!
NEVER.GETS.OLD!!!
NEVER!!!!!
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
thanks Joe.... wondering if you could expand on the fear....you say you see benefit, yet say its scary....DFS has a separate one, IDP has a separate one...etc...I would venture to guess based on ALL the dynasty threads that the Dynasty Only forum would support itself even more than those....so that should eliminate that side of it....a "redraft" side wouldn't strictly be "redraft", it would still encompass all the things currently in the SP minus ALL of the dynasty stuff.....
its really not hard to see that a dynasty only forum would be active....all you have to do is look at the first page....
"look at in the future" seems like a way of just dismissing it and hoping it doesn't get brought back up again, even though others have mentioned asking for this for some time now....it almost sounds like something you really won't ever consider but you just don't want to come out and say it......what would it take for it to become a realistic option?
I will also add that if you ever did give dynasty their own forum.... instead of letting it just dominate this one...that increased staffer participation in both would be helpful in maintaing participation.....staffers starting threads, etc....usually if a staffer starts something it gets a ton of play....
again...this coming from a current non dynasty guy.....thanks...
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
This is a pretty salient point. I know being in dynasty leagues had definitely made me better at redraft. There's far less research to do during redraft season because I already know all the players/situations inside and out. I do think you may lose a lot of dynasty players' since those leagues are usually more "important" to them so my guess is they would spend much more time in that forum - which would obviously dilute the Shark Pool on volume alone, if not knowledge.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
those that play in both then have very specific areas where they can immediately go get feedback depending on which direction they are viewing that player from.....
sifting through posts about what pick of a rookie dynasty draft a player should go means nothing to me in redraft.....and once players are drafted in dynasty....any redraft discussion means very little....etc....if there is one thing that is evident in the SP is that dynasty could easily support its own thread....it feels like that since they dominate the threads during the offseason, they are given "priority" in the SP.....
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Because no one is talking redraft in March-April-May-even early June. Once Late June/July/August rolls around you'll get "Pick 7 Discussion" and "Who will be Denver's Staring RB" threads up and going.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
since the posts from dynasty guys usually come from a very unique viewpoint, I am not sure many of the comments are of much value to a redraft guy....I can't speak to this 100% but I have a feeling if a guy owns Dion Lewis in dynasty he is probably not making many/if any comments in the thread from a redraft perspective....because as you said their dynasty is more important to them....there may be a couple exceptions, but I would feel safe in saying that is probably the case more often than not....
Chaka
Footballguy
Maybe, but sifting through those posts still sounds just as, or more, manageable than switching between threads. I would be every dollar I have that, as @Dr. Octopus said, the dyno guys will preferentially stick to the dyno threads. TBH if Joe split the forums I would likely spend more time there as well. Certainly the off season would probably be a post-apocalyptic wasteland in the redraft forum. I know that I would end up where the action is, and most likely that is where all the off season strategy threads would end up.
The redraft forum would probably consist mostly of "Rank these players" and "Pick 9 Redraft: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" threads.
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Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
exactly...thanks...so let's not have them battling for front page face time....at any time of year
Chaka
Footballguy
I am not sure what you mean by this. Threads are given priority based upon the most recent posts. If you want to see posts appear differently the "Sort by" feature is awesome.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
the non dynasty forum would still include all other things Shark Pool worthy....not just redraftMaybe, but sifting through those posts still sounds just as, or more, manageable than switching between threads. I would be every dollar I have that, as @Dr. Octopus said, the dyno guys will preferentially stick to the dyno threads. TBH if Joe split the forums I would likely spend more time there as well. Certainly the off season would probably be a post-apocalyptic wasteland in the redraft forum. I know that I would end up where the action is, and most likely that is where all the off season strategy threads would end up.
The redraft forum would probably consist mostly of "Rank these players" and "Pick 9 Redraft: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" threads.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I guess I am saying the "abundant activity" of the dynasty threads during the off season gives the dynasty threads a ton of street cred in the Shark Pool and thus leads to the fears that Joe has about moving them....I don't think he wants to separate them because he wants any "new" traffic to the Shark Pool in the off season (or any season for that matter) to see a ton of activity as soon as they take a dip in the pool....its a business, I get it...I'm not going anywhere either way, I'll keep sifting through, but it just kinda sucks....
eta...if I played in both types....I for one would rather have a Dynasty Only Forum
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Chaka
Footballguy
I agree, so what would the redraft forum look like?
"Pick 1; 12 Team; PPR"
"Pick 2; 12 Team PPR"
"Pick 2: 10 Team; Non-PPR; Superflex"
And so forth...
Thanks. I don't have any hidden meaning about looking at it for the future. But if we need a clear and definitive answer, I can say it won't happen. I'm firmly committed to keeping the Shark Pool Dynasty and Seaslon Long Offensive players. That could change. But for now, that's how I see it.
Chaka
Footballguy
Well he could fix that by creating a separate redraft forum for all the reasons you say.
The off-season action will without question be in the forum with the most posters (i.e. Dynasty), so I think all the good strategy and info threads will end up there as well. IMO that would relegate the Redraft forum to somewhere just above the Assistant Coaches forum and just below the Test Forum.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
you still have all the breaking news.....free agent discussion....commish issues...."Official Team Threads"..etc....basically take all the dynasty stuff on the first page off right now....and take a look....
and then as the season gets closer.....add in all those type threads you are mentioning....
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Chaka
Footballguy
Free agent and draft pick stuff seems more off-seasony and, therefore more likely to end up in the SP (I think we need to accept that, if anything, a separate Redraft forum will be created).
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Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
when I say free agent, I am meaning in season redraft free agent roster stuff like if you have a guy that gets hurt....what should you do with him, who should you pick up.....thats actually a great example of potentially a completely different discussion depending on what type of league you are in....
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Chaka
Footballguy
Oh, okay that makes sense.
During the season I could see a more value to a dedicated Redraft forum as the roster decisions will be dramatically different between redrafters and dynasty players.
But a forum with 3 1/2 month period of relevancy doesn't seem likely to survive IMO.
Do you take advantage of the "Sort By" feature and the ability to go directly to the last post you read when you open a thread? Those two features really help me filter through the noise.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
thanks Joe...it's a business...I get it....thanks for at least putting this bad boy to bed....
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I do use the last post read function...I will say I would probably struggle with how to try and basically eliminate in a search any thread that is basically Dynasty focused....not sure how that would work....especially since many of the ones I am talking about include both redraft and dynasty in the title...
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
most FF boards have their version of the Shark Pool forum...and its usually the mother bee home base....they are going to want any "new" traffic to to the board to see a ton of activity at the home base no matter what part of the season it is....so requests like this will be shot down...it's all good...it was just brought up because this thread was asking for feedback...
Chaka
Footballguy
No you couldn't do that, at least not that I am aware of (I have pointed out my disappointment with the search functions of these boards to the highest authorities). But you can
threads as you decide you are interested and sort by those.Like I said, I just don't see much issue with the Dynasty threads because I find tons of relevant info about the player. IMO filtering through the noise doesn't seem any more difficult than having to switch tabs. And I don't think it is worth the associated risk of losing good posters who will have little reason to visit the Redraft forum thread on the same player. I fill like we will become an even more insular community than we already are. Heaven help the poor ******* who mistakenly wanders into the wrong forum and asks about Redraft (or Dynasty).
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Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
i laughed...No you couldn't do that, at least not that I am aware of (I have pointed out my disappointment with the search functions of these boards to the highest authorities). But you can
Like I said, I just don't see much issue with the Dynasty threads because I find tons of relevant info about the player. IMO filtering through the noise doesn't seem any more difficult than having to switch tabs. And I don't think it is worth the associated risk of losing good posters who will have little reason to visit the Redraft forum thread on the same player. I fill like we will become an even more insular community than we already are. Heaven help the poor ******* who mistakenly wanders into the wrong forum and asks about Redraft (or Dynasty).
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
There is another site I frequent and it's all dynasty, all year. It would be nice if more people from here migrated over there for dynasty discussion during the season.
I've been playing dynasty over 30 years. I am not FBGs target market. The only reason I would pay for this site would be to support them, but I think they're doing ok by now. Dynasty (and devy) keep you informed all year so the need to pay someone for advice isn't great. Redrafters are the target market. People play in a league or 2, want their research done for them and will shell out the money to FBG. I'm not saying all redrafters, but there is a large segment of the redraft community that don't have the time to do the research. As far as dynasty has come, redraft will always be the big draw.
I've been playing dynasty over 30 years. I am not FBGs target market. The only reason I would pay for this site would be to support them, but I think they're doing ok by now. Dynasty (and devy) keep you informed all year so the need to pay someone for advice isn't great. Redrafters are the target market. People play in a league or 2, want their research done for them and will shell out the money to FBG. I'm not saying all redrafters, but there is a large segment of the redraft community that don't have the time to do the research. As far as dynasty has come, redraft will always be the big draw.
