How Effectively Could You Argue the Opposing View? (1 Viewer)

[Yankee23Fan]

I paid six figures to spend three years of my life being trained to argue two sides of a coin so I certainly hope so. 

This is a safe space... we can admit that law school is a scam. We basically fell for a pyramid scheme set up by old white guys.

 

[Apple Jack]

What's come of America when one can't be openly racist whenever they want without being called on it? Disgraceful!

 

[Zow]

This is a safe space... we can admit that law school is a scam. We basically fell for a pyramid scheme set up by old white guys.

I honestly think law school changed my thinking regarding difficult issues for the better. 

I mean, it also turned me into a soulless robot and didn’t really prepare me for actual practice, but I do really attribute it to helping me be able to objectively view multiple opposing viewpoints and eschew my personal feelings or beliefs. 

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Verbal Tyranny is the name of my  BDSM themed acapella group.

 

[jon_mx]

The original post, sure, but then the example went to white privilege before it turned into jon just embarrassing himself again.

Yes of course.  But what really is an embassment is this forum does not tolerate a discussion of what a vast majority of what white males believe without being mocked, ridiculed or called a racist.  And that it is simply ridiculous to believe this same group does a good job of representing white America and are baffled why most whites don't vote for such swill.  

 

[sho nuff]

Yes of course.  But what really is an embassment is this forum does not tolerate a discussion of what a vast majority of what white males believe without being mocked, ridiculed or called a racist.  And that it is simply ridiculous to believe this same group does a good job of representing white America and are baffled why most whites don't vote for such swill.  

Again what vast majority believe what you are saying Jon?

Id bet the vast majority of white males don’t think this white privilege thing is a major issue.  You seem to be the only one in this boats who even complains about it and lately bring it up in nearly every thread you pop in to.

And it’s not a discussion or disagreeing that gets people on this board labeled racist...it’s saying things that sound pretty racist that does it.  And I’m not calling you racist...be clear about that.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Elites and activists across the world have adopted a culture of verbal tyranny in which they shut down any effort to reason or criticize blacks or black-majority nations by labeling such attempts as “racism” or “hate speech.” Thus, one can be certain that any suggestions that a race may indeed need to do something to remedy the situation will not be aired — not by the terrified people of other races. And anyone within the race who makes such a suggestion will be deemed weak and pandering or a sellout. Thus, no one will talk about the painful fact that most African and Caribbea nations have either failed or are about to collapse.

Still dodging?

It's a pretty simple yes or no question, with a follow-up:

Would another race that faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans in this country have fared better?  "Better" meaning they wouldn't have the problems you listed in this rant.

Follow-up: if so, what do you think it is about African-Americans that makes them unable to fare as well as other races?

I've made my feelings known about these questions.  I said "I think any minority group who faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans through our national history (and global history-colonization and whathaveyou) would be in an identical situation today." You haven't been as clear, though. I thought you'd answered the first question "yes" but then you seemed to be walking it back when I pointed out that you are saying that African-Americans are inherently inferior to other races

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Could you, without resorting to backhanded swipes, slipping into derision, or subtly mocking, fully explain a viewpoint which is diametrically opposed to your own beliefs.

It was a nice try.  Made it a few responses before the normal trolls took over this thread too.

 

[derek245583]

It was a nice try.  Made it a few responses before the normal trolls took over this thread too.

Good post.

Popped into this forum again to see what was going on and thought this thread might be interested...read a few, thought I clicked on the wrong thread, and now I am here.

 

[derek245583]

Still dodging?

It's a pretty simple yes or no question, with a follow-up:

Would another race that faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans in this country have fared better?  "Better" meaning they wouldn't have the problems you listed in this rant.

Follow-up: if so, what do you think it is about African-Americans that makes them unable to fare as well as other races?

I've made my feelings known about these questions.  I said "I think any minority group who faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans through our national history (and global history-colonization and whathaveyou) would be in an identical situation today." You haven't been as clear, though. I thought you'd answered the first question "yes" but then you seemed to be walking it back when I pointed out that you are saying that African-Americans are inherently inferior to other races

In the spirit of this thread, I think I can take it from here:

If JM says yes, I call him a racist

If JM says no, then I say "so you admit there is white privilege"

 

[TobiasFunke]

Good post.

Popped into this forum again to see what was going on and thought this thread might be interested...read a few, thought I clicked on the wrong thread, and now I am here.

I thought we dealt with the subject of the thread fairly quickly. The universal answer from one side seemed to be "yes to traditional conservatism but not to Trumpism, which is indefensible." The answer from the other side was basically this and jon mx going off on a racist rant.

I'm not going to apologize for calling out racism, and I'm not interfering with anyone else's ability to discuss the subject raised by the OP. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

In the spirit of this thread, I think I can take it from here:

If JM says yes, I call him a racist

If JM says no, then I say "so you admit there is white privilege"

You don't really have to "call him" racist if he says yes. It's kinda self-defining.

I appreciate your efforts to bring it around to the OP, though! Does this mean we're on opposite sides?  Do I have to take RW off ignore and start praising him to show how effectively I could take your side?

 

[sho nuff]

I’m still trying to figure out what white privilege even had to do with the topic...and maybe it needs its own thread...but what percentage of Americans even consider it a major issue, let alone the biggest divide in the country.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I’m still trying to figure out what white privilege even had to do with the topic...and maybe it needs its own thread...but what percentage of Americans even consider it a major issue, let alone the biggest divide in the country.

I could effectively argue the opposing view by grossly exaggerating the left's concern with things like white privilege and microagressions and transgender bathrooms, while ignoring 95% of what they actually say which is mostly about stuff like health care, the environment, wages and corruption.

 

[jon_mx]

You don't really have to "call him" racist if he says yes. It's kinda self-defining.

I appreciate your efforts to bring it around to the OP, though! Does this mean we're on opposite sides?  Do I have to take RW off ignore and start praising him to show how effectively I could take your side?

This is why it is impossible to discuss this topic.  You wish to define racism as identifying any difference between races.  Well obviously there tends to be all kinds of differences such as skin color, size, muscle density, facial features as well as many cultural differences which shape actions and values.  When you are discussing matter of fact differences and possible causes, sure you can call that racist if you so wish to broadly define the term as such.  But that rhetoric just eliminates the possibility of any intelligent discussion which might actually help the situation.  Racism in an honest discussion should be a more bounded term which is directed at those who see and treat those of another race or group as inferior.  But if this is how you wish to proceed with the discussion, then it is absolutely pointless. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is why it is impossible to discuss this topic.  You wish to define racism as identifying any difference between races.  Well obviously there tends to be all kinds of differences such as skin color, size, muscle density, facial features as well as many cultural differences which shape actions and values.  When you are discussing matter of fact differences and possible causes, sure you can call that racist if you so wish to broadly define the term as such.  But that rhetoric just eliminates the possibility of any intelligent discussion which might actually help the situation.  Racism in an honest discussion should be a more bounded term which is directed at those who see and treat those of another race or group as inferior.  But if this is how you wish to proceed with the discussion, then it is absolutely pointless. 

I asked a pretty straightforward yes or no question, with a pretty straightforward follow-up if you answered yes. I can and have answered it myself. Not sure what the problem is here. The question allows for you to discuss any matter-of-fact differences between the races you like, if you think those differences are the reason African-Americans haven't fared as well as other races as you defined it in the post I linked.

Also, you brought it up.  Seems weird to raise a topic yourself and then say it's impossible to discuss it.

 

[dgreen]

I thought we dealt with the subject of the thread fairly quickly. The universal answer from one side seemed to be "yes to traditional conservatism but not to Trumpism, which is indefensible." The answer from the other side was basically this and jon mx going off on a racist rant.

I'm not going to apologize for calling out racism, and I'm not interfering with anyone else's ability to discuss the subject raised by the OP. 

I don't think a position has to be defensible in order for one to be able to argue the other side. You just have to understand it, which can be a challenge if the other side isn't presenting an argument that can be understood.

ETA: It's also a challenge if I don't listen to the other side and make an effort to understand, obviously.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think a position has to be defensible in order for one to be able to argue the other side. You just have to understand it, which can be a challenge if the other side isn't presenting an argument that can be understood.

Good point. Although I think it being defensible makes it easier to argue it effectively, which was the question.

 

[dgreen]

Good point. Although I think it being defensible makes it easier to argue it effectively, which was the question.

True. Personally, I have a hard time arguing effectively for things I'm strongly against. I feel like I can at least present an understanding of some opposing arguments in a matter-of-fact way, but I couldn't win a debate with some passionate defense of that argument. For example, I suppose I can understand and explain why Hitler did what he did, but I'd have a super hard time making a strong argument for it.

 

[derek245583]

You don't really have to "call him" racist if he says yes. It's kinda self-defining.

I appreciate your efforts to bring it around to the OP, though! Does this mean we're on opposite sides?  Do I have to take RW off ignore and start praising him to show how effectively I could take your side?

I am not really on a side. I get that most of what people argue in the politics forum is centered more around actual politicians and their looney behavior more than policy and what it should be, can be, etc.

I come to this forum to try and learn about viewpoints that I either don't have, don't understand, or didn't grow up with. I usually have to wade through 47 posts per page (50 pages per post from my old habits) to even find discussion of the problem or possibly solutions that do not contain links from CNN or fox news or some other biased new outlet.

Not banging on the forum, you guys do you. Sometimes I pop in to see if things have changed.

 

[dgreen]

I’m still trying to figure out what white privilege even had to do with the topic...and maybe it needs its own thread...but what percentage of Americans even consider it a major issue, let alone the biggest divide in the country.

I think there are a lot of people who don't think white privilege exists and they see pushing that agenda as being harmful. They view it as an automatic "racist" label for white men, that white men are blamed as a group for things that aren't their fault as individuals, that the solution appears to be to take down white men, and that whites are headed for minority/oppressed status in our society and they'll be the ones on the wrong end of racism. They see that as a major issue.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I am not really on a side. I get that most of what people argue in the politics forum is centered more around actual politicians and their looney behavior more than policy and what it should be, can be, etc.

I come to this forum to try and learn about viewpoints that I either don't have, don't understand, or didn't grow up with. I usually have to wade through 47 posts per page (50 pages per post from my old habits) to even find discussion of the problem or possibly solutions that do not contain links from CNN or fox news or some other biased new outlet.

Not banging on the forum, you guys do you. Sometimes I pop in to see if things have changed.

This seems like an odd limitation to place on yourself. Just because you think an outlet makes biased editorial decisions (I personally think all large news media coverage of politics these days is wildly pro-Trump for profitability reasons, in fact I think it's an easy case to make) is no reason to discount a story or even a n opinion piece. Fox News and CNN both have done impressive reporting in their news divisions and sometimes feature perspectives worth hearing IMO.

 

[sho nuff]

I think there are a lot of people who don't think white privilege exists and they see pushing that agenda as being harmful. They view it as an automatic "racist" label for white men, that white men are blamed as a group for things that aren't their fault as individuals, that the solution appears to be to take down white men, and that whites are headed for minority/oppressed status in our society and they'll be the ones on the wrong end of racism. They see that as a major issue.

But I’m guessing it’s a low percentage who see it as a major issue...and factually it’s a not a major issue like immigration, healthcare...

 

[dgreen]

But I’m guessing it’s a low percentage who see it as a major issue...

IDK. Maybe. I just know that I hear a lot of white men complain about it.

and factually it’s a not a major issue like immigration, healthcare...

What facts are you using to reach this conclusion?

 

[whiskey7]

I think there are a lot of people who don't think white privilege exists and they see pushing that agenda as being harmful. They view it as an automatic "racist" label for white men, that white men are blamed as a group for things that aren't their fault as individuals, that the solution appears to be to take down white men, and that whites are headed for minority/oppressed status in our society and they'll be the ones on the wrong end of racism. They see that as a major issue.

I think you've captured a lot of folks' thought process well here.

 

[BobbyLayne]

think there are a lot of people who don't think white privilege exists and they see pushing that agenda as being harmful. They view it as an automatic "racist" label for white men, that white men are blamed as a group for things that aren't their fault as individuals, that the solution appears to be to take down white men, and that whites are headed for minority/oppressed status in our society and they'll be the ones on the wrong end of racism. They see that as a major issue.

I think you've captured a lot of folks' thought process well here.

I think you guys are onto something here. The thing is, acknowledgment of white privilege and systemic racism is NOT an indictment against individuals who espouse another point in view. It is not, as is often perceived, a slight, a pejorative (well at least it shouldn't be), a broad brush that paints all conservatives as racist. It is not saying that folks who don't embrace it as the truest understanding of race relations in America and the problem of wealth inequality are bigots. It's the explanation for why even when individuals are not racists and good people harbor no bias, societal factor are so powerful as to overcome the good that people wish to see.

But it iss a nuanced kind of thing, it's not black & white (pun intended), and WP/SR are trigger words which cause people to shut down and stop participating in discourse. Mainly because they feel like it's hopeless. The other side will often not acknowledge where they are coming from. They won't stop saying "you're guilty of racism, whether its intended or unintentional, if you don't view this the way we do".

The older I get the more I realize how its so much more valuable to understand than to be understood. Being right, if you are right in the wrong way, is of little value.

 

[dgreen]

The older I get the more I realize how its so much more valuable to understand than to be understood. Being right, if you are right in the wrong way, is of little value.

And, something I've tried to communicate in this thread, as right as we think we are, we need to realize that we are probably wrong quite often.

Also, to go along with "understanding > being understood", I think it's helpful to not worry about what assumptions people make about you. I'm increasingly ok with the thought that other people attribute things to me that aren't true. The next step might be to take these opinions of me, which I see as not being true, and trying to figure out if maybe they really are true and whether that's something I need to work on or not. For example, I don't view myself as homophobic. However, I'm sure I hold certain views that would lead to others labeling me as homophobic. In general, I'm ok with that. I don't have a great need to clear my good name in that person's eyes. I should, though, take the accusations and reconsider whether I am who I think I am.

 

[BobbyLayne]

And, something I've tried to communicate in this thread, as right as we think we are, we need to realize that we are probably wrong quite often.

Also, to go along with "understanding > being understood", I think it's helpful to not worry about what assumptions people make about you. I'm increasingly ok with the thought that other people attribute things to me that aren't true. The next step might be to take these opinions of me, which I see as not being true, and trying to figure out if maybe they really are true and whether that's something I need to work on or not. For example, I don't view myself as homophobic. However, I'm sure I hold certain views that would lead to others labeling me as homophobic. In general, I'm ok with that. I don't have a great need to clear my good name in that person's eyes. I should, though, take the accusations and reconsider whether I am who I think I am.

This is fantastic. Love that, brother.

An unexamined life is not worth living.

 

[sho nuff]

IDK. Maybe. I just know that I hear a lot of white men complain about it.

What facts are you using to reach this conclusion?

Polling of the issues over and over and over again?  Is White privilege ever at the top or even near it?  Other than Jon...I hear almost nobody even talk about it.

 

[dgreen]

Polling of the issues over and over and over again?  Is White privilege ever at the top or even near it? 

Maybe. I don't really know. I don't follow politics as much as others and I'm not familiar with various polls. That's why I was asking. So you're saying there are polls that show what people consider to be major issues and "white privilege" doesn't appear?

Other than Jon...I hear almost nobody even talk about it.

Are we talking about the same thing? "White privilege" is a subset topic of racism and seems to be discussed in most discussions about racism, but I may be wrong.

 

[sho nuff]

Maybe. I don't really know. I don't follow politics as much as others and I'm not familiar with various polls. That's why I was asking. So you're saying there are polls that show what people consider to be major issues and "white privilege" doesn't appear?

Are we talking about the same thing? "White privilege" is a subset topic of racism and seems to be discussed in most discussions about racism, but I may be wrong.

Yes...Im showing polls where white privilege doesn't appear...and economics and healthcare are always far above even a general category like race relations (which may include, but obviously is not limited to this white privilege issue).

Yes...we are talking about the same thing...in discussions about racism...I rarely, if ever, hear white privilege even brought up....except from Jon.  He appears to be the outlier.

 

[jon_mx]

Yes...Im showing polls where white privilege doesn't appear...and economics and healthcare are always far above even a general category like race relations (which may include, but obviously is not limited to this white privilege issue).

Yes...we are talking about the same thing...in discussions about racism...I rarely, if ever, hear white privilege even brought up....except from Jon.  He appears to be the outlier.

The OP specifically talked about white privilege.

"You recognize white privilege is a real thing. Now explain why you (hypothetically) believe in rugged individualism, talk about bootstrapping and equality of opportunity in America.

OR

You know the data strongly supports the concept that mass incarceration of people of color - particularly blacks - is the result of systemic racism"

 

[sho nuff]

The OP specifically talked about white privilege.

"You recognize white privilege is a real thing. Now explain why you (hypothetically) believe in rugged individualism, talk about bootstrapping and equality of opportunity in America.

OR

You know the data strongly supports the concept that mass incarceration of people of color - particularly blacks - is the result of systemic racism"

Pretty much rarely if ever still applies.  But I’d guess if the search function of this board worked well enough...we would see who brings the topic up by far the most often...

 

[jon_mx]

Pretty much rarely if ever still applies.  But I’d guess if the search function of this board worked well enough...we would see who brings the topic up by far the most often...

So besides not reading the OP, you just make stuff up.  You know since MT and Joe asked 'us' to stop doing this a couple weeks ago, this is the fourth thread you have seeked me out and trolled me.   

 

[sho nuff]

So besides not reading the OP, you just make stuff up.  You know since MT and Joe asked 'us' to stop doing this a couple weeks ago, this is the fourth thread you have seeked me out and trolled me.   

I did not make anything up Jon.

We are having a discussion which we are free to do.

I have neither series you out nor trolled you...nor done anything that has violated the terms of service of this board.  And I don’t appreciate these false accusations about me.

 

[jon_mx]

I did not make anything up Jon.

We are having a discussion which we are free to do.

I have neither series you out nor trolled you...nor done anything that has violated the terms of service of this board.  And I don’t appreciate these false accusations about me.

You make up all kinds of things.   One you claim that I am the one who brought out white previledge, when it was in fact in the OP.  You also change my point from being about racism and how differences in beliefs about things like white previledge and institutional racism is a major divide in this country into being it being the most important issue.   You twist things and become personal and confrontational.  

 

[sho nuff]

You make up all kinds of things.   One you claim that I am the one who brought out white previledge, when it was in fact in the OP.  You also change my point from being about racism and how differences in beliefs about things like white previledge and institutional racism is a major divide in this country into being it being the most important issue.   You twist things and become personal and confrontational.  

I think you are mistaking a mistake...for making things up.  I overlooked it in the OP and given recent threads incorrectly concluded you brought it up.  For that I am sorry.

I twisted nothing and made it about your posts only Jon and not about you.  Again I don’t appreciate that accusation.  “biggest divide in this country is the belief in the extent of the existence of white previledge and institutional racism. “. I disagree that it’s the biggest divide or even a major issue in this country.

 

[jon_mx]

I think you are mistaking a mistake...for making things up.  I overlooked it in the OP and given recent threads incorrectly concluded you brought it up.  For that I am sorry.

I twisted nothing and made it about your posts only Jon and not about you.  Again I don’t appreciate that accusation.  “biggest divide in this country is the belief in the extent of the existence of white previledge and institutional racism. “. I disagree that it’s the biggest divide or even a major issue in this country.

Have you looked at polling at how whites view those verses blacks?  Race is the biggest divide in this country today.  It started going down hill in the Obama years and now with Trump it is in the toilet.   The fact that most on the left view those concepts as non-debateable facts while most whites by a significant percentage do not buy into them, is an impossible barrier to have any discussion at all, imho.  

 

[sho nuff]

Have you looked at polling at how whites view those verses blacks?  Race is the biggest divide in this country today.  It started going down hill in the Obama years and now with Trump it is in the toilet.   The fact that most on the left view those concepts as non-debateable facts while most whites by a significant percentage do not buy into them, is an impossible barrier to have any discussion at all, imho.  

Race may be a big issue...that does not mean white privilege is the biggest divide Jon.

And if anything went downhill during the  Years...you should look at what actually happened to start a divide (psst it started and has been going in for long before Obama and White Provilege has not been the catalyst)

Please post an example of any large majority or even large group finding it to be one of the top issues facing this country Jon...please do so.  In particular what you claim in the bolded.  Back that up..not with some BS opinion piece Jon...but facts for once.

In the meantime Iowa has what looks very much like a very racist congressman and Princeton has a white nationalist march coming up...and lawmakers in Texas are trying to remove someone for being Muslim.

Yeah...race/racism is still an issue in this country but this white privilege stuff is by far not even the biggest part of that.

 

[jon_mx]

Race may be a big issue...that does not mean white privilege is the biggest divide Jon.

You work way too hard to find fault with what I said.  You disect things and state things in a way I did not say.  What I said was:

"Perhaps the biggest divide in this country is the belief in the extent of the existence of white previledge and institutional racism.  One side blames society as mostly being responsible for the unequal outcomes and one side doesn't. "

My point was never that White Previledge is a huge issue or is what caused the divide.  It is a much bigger picture of completely different fundamental beliefs on the root causes of the inequity of outcomes which exists.  One side is all about individual being responsible for the outcome while the other wants all the blame on the long history of racism in our country.  White Previledge/Institutional Racism which was brought up in the OP was used as an example which illistrates divide.  IMHO, both arguements are flawed.  

 

[sho nuff]

You work way too hard to find fault with what I said.  You disect things and state things in a way I did not say.  What I said was:

"Perhaps the biggest divide in this country is the belief in the extent of the existence of white previledge and institutional racism.  One side blames society as mostly being responsible for the unequal outcomes and one side doesn't. "

My point was never that White Previledge is a huge issue or is what caused the divide.  It is a much bigger picture of completely different fundamental beliefs on the root causes of the inequity of outcomes which exists.  One side is all about individual being responsible for the outcome while the other wants all the blame on the long history of racism in our country.  White Previledge/Institutional Racism which was brought up in the OP was used as an example which illistrates divide.  IMHO, both arguements are flawed.  

So zero link to the bolded above.  And I didn’t look for something to take exception with...I took exception to what you actually said.  And you have brought white privilege up in multiple threads and so when talking about in the way you did (including talk of majority of whites feeling a certain way...with no link of course) my reasonable conclusion was that you found it to be a large issue.

 

[jon_mx]

So zero link to the bolded above.  And I didn’t look for something to take exception with...I took exception to what you actually said.  And you have brought white privilege up in multiple threads and so when talking about in the way you did (including talk of majority of whites feeling a certain way...with no link of course) my reasonable conclusion was that you found it to be a large issue.

You are so full of crap as usual.  You are an obsessive troll. 

 

[sho nuff]

You are so full of crap as usual.  You are an obsessive troll. 

Don’t ever complain about the discourse her Jon...I’ve not said a thing to you near this type of response and you go personal.

Ignore me if you can’t handle having your posts disagreed with.  Nothing I said in here has been trolling by any definition of the word.

And you have again made unsubstantiated claims that you refuse to back up with a link.

 

[jon_mx]

Don’t ever complain about the discourse her Jon...I’ve not said a thing to you near this type of response and you go personal.

Ignore me if you can’t handle having your posts disagreed with.  Nothing I said in here has been trolling by any definition of the word.

And you have again made unsubstantiated claims that you refuse to back up with a link.

Mischaracterizing what I say is not disagreeing with.  You are the one making unsubstantiated claims about me constantly bringing up white privilege when it was in fact brought up in the OP.  I do not start threads about or always bring up the topic. And you continue to say I do so without any evidence.   I disagree that white privilege and institutionalized racism is a given fact.  If you don't want me to say you are full of crap, stop following me around and directing comments towards me by putting words in my mouth I did not say. 

 

[sho nuff]

Mischaracterizing what I say is not disagreeing with.  You are the one making unsubstantiated claims about me constantly bringing up white privilege when it was in fact brought up in the OP.  I do not start threads about or always bring up the topic. And you continue to say I do so without any evidence.   I disagree that white privilege and institutionalized racism is a given fact.  If you don't want me to say you are full of crap, stop following me around and directing comments towards me by putting words in my mouth I did not say. 

I apologized for saying you did in this thread...but it is not untrue to say you have in others.  And nowhere in my post did I say you started a thread about it (now who is mischaracterizing things).  The rest...I stand by my points about what you actually posted.

I have not followed you around at all either.  And this is now the third time I’m asking you to back up your claim that is bolded above...it’s up there in bold...no mischaterozation...your words.  And you keep ignoring it to complain.

 

[doolin]

You are so full of crap as usual.  You are an obsessive troll. 

He was the same at FFToday.  I see that nothing changed.

 

[jon_mx]

I apologized for saying you did in this thread...but it is not untrue to say you have in others.  And nowhere in my post did I say you started a thread about it (now who is mischaracterizing things).  The rest...I stand by my points about what you actually posted.

I have not followed you around at all either.  And this is now the third time I’m asking you to back up your claim that is bolded above...it’s up there in bold...no mischaterozation...your words.  And you keep ignoring it to complain.

Link One

A CNN/ORC poll from 2015 drives this point home. A broad majority of whites (81%) in the United States say they think black people have as good a chance as white people in their communities to get any kind of job for which they are qualified. But a majority of blacks say the opposite: 54% of them say blacks don't have as good a chance as whites in their communities to get a job they're qualified for.

Link Two

Issues of race have long divided Americans along racial and partisan lines, and these differences extend to views of whether white people in the U.S. benefit from advantages in society that black people do not have.

 

[sho nuff]

Link One

A CNN/ORC poll from 2015 drives this point home. A broad majority of whites (81%) in the United States say they think black people have as good a chance as white people in their communities to get any kind of job for which they are qualified. But a majority of blacks say the opposite: 54% of them say blacks don't have as good a chance as whites in their communities to get a job they're qualified for.

Link Two

Issues of race have long divided Americans along racial and partisan lines, and these differences extend to views of whether white people in the U.S. benefit from advantages in society that black people do not have.

Your link one is from 2017 doesn’t come close to mentioning white privilege or anything associated with the concept.  Just that blacks and whites see it differently.  Nowhere have I denied that!!!  Nor does it speak to the bolded claim you made above.  Again the topic as about white privilege when younrespomded with your bolded claims.

Link 2 is closer but even they push the “not too much” into the same category as nine at all.  I think that is a bit misleading as well.  But closer to your point.  Thank you for providing it.

 

[Joe Bryant]

He was the same at FFToday.  I see that nothing changed.

Please drop it, both of you. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I paid six figures to spend three years of my life being trained to argue two sides of a coin so I certainly hope so. 

You paid six figures to spend three years learning when the argument is so bad you should settle the case quickly, too.