How Effectively Could You Argue the Opposing View? (1 Viewer)

[TobiasFunke]

Some Examples

More than half of the foreign-born population are homeowners. In 2012, 51 percent of immigrant heads of household owned their own homes, compared with 66 percent of native-born heads of household. Among immigrants, 65 percent of naturalized citizens owned their own homes in 2012.

Less than one in five immigrants live in poverty, and they are no more likely to use social services than the native-born Americans. In 2012, 19.1 percent of immigrants lived in poverty, while 15.4 percent of the native-born population lived in poverty. Of the foreign born, the two largest groups living in poverty were the 3.2 million people who emigrated from Mexico and the 1.4 million people who emigrated from either South or East Asia. Despite of this, studies have consistently shown that immigrants use social programs such as Medicaid and Supplemental Security Income at similar rates to native households.

The 20 million U.S.-born children of immigrants are significantly better off financially than their immigrant parents. The median annual household income of second-generation Americans in 2012 was $58,100, just $100 below the national average. This was significantly higher than the median annual household income of their parents at $45,800

You have no idea what percentage of those immigrants arrived in america “with nothing but the short off their back.”

Also you didn’t answer my first question.

 

[jon_mx]

hey jon - how about in the spirit of the thread, you argue that white privelege is a thing. Thanks

Sure.  It is easy point to the mounds of stats which show examples of disproportionate outcomes and declare that as proof.  To point to ancedotal examples of racist acts.  To point to increases in reported hate crimes.   That is no problem.  I understand it.   But yet there has not been one poster on the left who can even believe the concept of white previledge or institutionalized racism is not a major problem.  

 

[jon_mx]

You have no idea what percentage of those immigrants arrived in america “with nothing but the short off their back.”

Also you didn’t answer my first question.

Oh sure I do.   I am certain that nearly all those who arrived from places like Mexico, Vietnam, Phillipines, or central American countries (about half of the total) were dirt poor.  

 

[jon_mx]

Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why? 

I would say Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against as much as any group throughout history, and yet they do quite well financially.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I would say Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against as much as any group throughout history, and yet they do quite well financially.

That’s not what I asked, is it?  Why aren’t you answering the two questions I asked? They were pretty straightforward questions.

BTW anyone who honestly thinks the Jewish experience in America remotely resembles the black experience in America should probably stop talking American history, American government or sociology until they learn a LOT more. I say that as a Jew whose family emigrated just a couple generations ago. And that’s pretty much the nicest way I can phrase this particular sentiment.

 

[jon_mx]

BTW anyone who honestly thinks the Jewish experience in America remotely resembles the black experience in America should probably stop talking American history, American government or sociology until they learn a LOT more. I say that as a Jew whose family emigrated just a couple generations ago. And that’s pretty much the nicest way I can phrase this particular sentiment.

I did not say anything about the Jewish experience in America nor was your question limited to America.  So you create a strawmen so you can be condescending?

 

[joffer]

Pretty easy.

Talk like a bumbling idiot.  Talk about how we need big government, raise taxes, impeach Trump and I would sound like the typical liberal.

Welcome to the forum, not-at-all-alias-guy.  I look forward to your rational discussion and objective debate.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I did not say anything about the Jewish experience in America nor was your question limited to America.  So you create a strawmen so you can be condescending?

I said “our nation’s history.”  No strawman. Just two simple questions that you still haven’t answered.  Here’s the post again. Questions in the first paragraph.

 

[-fish-]

spirit of the thread seems to be lost on jon.   what a shocker.

 

[The Commish]

This sounds like "your side's" argument and not the "other side's" argument, though. I'm familiar with the many things the "other side" doesn't think are causing this (as seen in @jon_mx previous post), but I haven't seen an argument for what is causing this. I'd like to understand that argument.

oh...yeah, that's the reality...not an attempt to be "the other side" and dismiss it.  If I were to attempt that, it would simply be not acknowledging that there is an issue outside of the individual.  If the individual doesn't do X that's their choice sort of argument.

 

[jon_mx]

oh...yeah, that's the reality...not an attempt to be "the other side" and dismiss it.  If I were to attempt that, it would simply be not acknowledging that there is an issue outside of the individual.  If the individual doesn't do X that's their choice sort of argument.

The spirit of the thread?  Really.  I have been the only person who even remotely showed that I understood the other side's arguement.  All attempts on the left said it was impossible and came nowhere near accurately articulating the views of the majority of whites in this country.  So who failed here? 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Good thread, IMO, and some great posts

I agree, I find myself reading here.

 

[The Commish]

But yet there has not been one poster on the left who can even believe the concept of white previledge or institutionalized racism is not a major problem.  

This is a complete mischaracterization of the common idea around here sans maybe squis.  While not "the left" I feel like I've talked about this more than most here and I have NEVER said it was a "major problem".  Its a problem that exists and the degree varies from one person to another.  But it absolutely exists and is a real thing and a tough thing for many.  It presents many obstacles for many people.  We are all running this race of life and all have obstacles.  We don't have the same kind nor the same amount, but we all have obstacles.  This notion that a black man starts at the same place as me and faces the same issues I do is absurd.  He doesn't and I am thankful I don't have to face some of the obstacles he does.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

As a person who had to develop a thorough understanding of the dictates of animalistic self in order to seek ways to transcend them, i could make Joseph Goebbels look like Perez Hilton

Expiate yeself, Giliad.

 

[The Commish]

The spirit of the thread?  Really.

I haven't uttered these words in this thread

I have been the only person who even remotely showed that I understood the other side's arguement. 

Um...if your characterization above is your evidence, it's not close to showing you understand the other side's argument.  It's a complete mischaracterization for the reasons I laid out in the post above.

All attempts on the left said it was impossible and came nowhere near accurately articulating the views of the majority of whites in this country.

You should probably read the comments of those who said "it" wasn't possible and reevaluate what "it" is because it's not "articulating the views of the majority of whites in this country".

So who failed here? 

I think you might want to ask a different question.

 

[[scooter]]

I have been the only person who even remotely showed that I understood the other side's arguement.

(I realize that this puts me at risk of being reported for using the rolling smiley, so I'll just add this: if you had really showed the capability of understanding the other side's argument better than anyone else in this thread, your posts would not have been picked apart, you would have received more than 0 likes, and you would not have been zinged by one of this site's most prominent conservative members.)

 

[jon_mx]

This notion that a black man starts at the same place as me and faces the same issues I do is absurd.  He doesn't and I am thankful I don't have to face some of the obstacles he does.

I understand the obsticles that black youth face growing up poor and in crime-ridden communities with terrible schools.   But what about black children who grow up in upper income households?  Do they have more obsticles than a poor white kid?  

 

[jon_mx]

The usual left-wing trolls that this forum tolerates.  

 

[jon_mx]

This is a complete mischaracterization of the common idea around here sans maybe squis.  While not "the left" I feel like I've talked about this more than most here and I have NEVER said it was a "major problem".  Its a problem that exists and the degree varies from one person to another.  But it absolutely exists and is a real thing and a tough thing for many.  It presents many obstacles for many people.  We are all running this race of life and all have obstacles.  We don't have the same kind nor the same amount, but we all have obstacles.  This notion that a black man starts at the same place as me and faces the same issues I do is absurd.  He doesn't and I am thankful I don't have to face some of the obstacles he does.

In the first part you say it is a complete mischaracterizating to say you believe it is a major problem, but then you conclude with statements which if you believe then you should think it is a major problem. 

 

[The Commish]

I understand the obsticles that black youth face growing up poor and in crime-ridden communities with terrible schools.   But what about black children who grow up in upper income households?  Do they have more obsticles than a poor white kid?  

I don't know about quantity, but the obstacles are very different.  Some are more than I'd ever want to deal with.  And I have friends thankful they don't have to deal with obstacles I do.  The difference is, we don't use those obstacles to put each other down or distinguish ourselves from one another.

 

[The Commish]

This is a complete mischaracterization of the common idea around here sans maybe squis.  While not "the left" I feel like I've talked about this more than most here and I have NEVER said it was a "major problem".  Its a problem that exists and the degree varies from one person to another.  But it absolutely exists and is a real thing and a tough thing for many.  It presents many obstacles for many people.  We are all running this race of life and all have obstacles.  We don't have the same kind nor the same amount, but we all have obstacles.  This notion that a black man starts at the same place as me and faces the same issues I do is absurd.  He doesn't and I am thankful I don't have to face some of the obstacles he does.

In the first part you say it is a complete mischaracterizating to say you believe it is a major problem, but then you conclude with statements which if you believe then you should think it is a major problem. 

And here's the core of the problem around here  Us telling each other what we "should think" or "shouldn't think" based on our own opinions.  This is a nice way to create a narrative in one's own little world without having to address the substance others are putting in front of them.  You don't get to tell me what I should and shouldn't be thinking.

 

[sho nuff]

Claiming you understand the other side and making another thread about the ridiculous white privilege stuff as of it’s a major issue anywhere is laughable.

 

[jon_mx]

Another troll.  

 

[sho nuff]

Another troll.  

Oh stop Jon...you aren’t being trolled.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Do I have to ignore facts on either side?  Then no but I can argue different conclusions to the facts but this never happens in our current climate.  Facts are ignored.

 

[adonis]

Reasonably well.  

 

[jon_mx]

Claiming you understand the other side and making another thread about the ridiculous white privilege stuff as of it’s a major issue anywhere is laughable.

This really shows how oblivious the left is to this and why most white voters can't stand them.  It is all ridiculous to you guys.  Things the left just accepts as the gospel truth is not accepted by the other side.  It makes an impossible discussion when both sides start with a completely different beliefs.  If you start off a math problem and give both sides a different set of assumptions, the answer you obtain will be completely different and each side will not believe how stupid the other side is.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

This really shows how oblivious the left is to this and why most white voters can't stand them.  It is all ridiculous to you guys.  Things the left just accepts as the gospel truth is not accepted by the other side.  It makes an impossible discussion when both sides start with a completely different beliefs.  If you start off a math problem and give both sides a different set of assumptions, the answer you obtain will be completely different and each side will not believe how stupid the other side is.  

I am assuming you are white, if you were born black and everything else was the same.  Would your life be the same?

 

[sho nuff]

This really shows how oblivious the left is to this and why most white voters can't stand them.  It is all ridiculous to you guys.  Things the left just accepts as the gospel truth is not accepted by the other side.  It makes an impossible discussion when both sides start with a completely different beliefs.  If you start off a math problem and give both sides a different set of assumptions, the answer you obtain will be completely different and each side will not believe how stupid the other side is.  

True when someone takes wnatvisnessenta non issue and tries to bring it up in every topic...it’s hard to discuss anything with that person.  Especially when Amy disagreeing with that person is met with claims of trolling and so on.

Id guess most white voters also don’t find this white privilege thing to be as big of an issue as you make it out to be Jon.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This really shows how oblivious the left is to this and why most white voters can't stand them.  It is all ridiculous to you guys.  Things the left just accepts as the gospel truth is not accepted by the other side.  It makes an impossible discussion when both sides start with a completely different beliefs.  If you start off a math problem and give both sides a different set of assumptions, the answer you obtain will be completely different and each side will not believe how stupid the other side is.  

Hey GB, I noticed you posted a bunch after our conversation but never answered my question.  Here it is again:

"Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why?"

TIA for your thoughts, and sorry to everyone else for getting off-topic. 

To get back on topic:  I think I could do a fairly good job of arguing the old model of small-government, supply-side economics, trust the marketplace, etc. I don't agree with it, but there's logic and reason behind it, it's simply a different way of looking at the purpose and goals of government.  I couldn't even begin to argue for Trumpism, which in fairness nobody else seems able to do effectively either.

 

[sho nuff]

Hey GB, I noticed you posted a bunch after our conversation but never answered my question.  Here it is again:

"Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why?"

TIA for your thoughts, and sorry to everyone else for getting off-topic. 

To get back on topic:  I think I could do a fairly good job of arguing the old model of small-government, supply-side economics, trust the marketplace, etc. I don't agree with it, but there's logic and reason behind it, it's simply a different way of looking at the purpose and goals of government.  I couldn't even begin to argue for Trumpism, which in fairness nobody else seems able to do effectively either.

Yeah the old model I could argue for and even some issues I disagree with (abortion, second amendment, death penalty, government role in public education).  But right now the opposite overall view to mine of Trump?  No...because I know to argue on behalf of him is to suspend reality and dismiss simple facts in order to do so.  Too much of what’s Trump is, says, and does...there is no logical defense.

 

[Mario Kart]

To get back on topic:  I think I could do a fairly good job of arguing the old model of small-government, supply-side economics, trust the marketplace, etc. I don't agree with it, but there's logic and reason behind it, it's simply a different way of looking at the purpose and goals of government.  I couldn't even begin to argue for Trumpism, which in fairness nobody else seems able to do effectively either.

This is the crux of the issue. I think it is imperative that if a person holds one position that they are able to argue the other side. Maybe not in an expert way but enough to understand where the other side is coming from. I guess that is a form of empathy. 

What Trump or Trump style arguments bring to the table, seems to be, nothing. It hurts to hear “Conservatives” talk about Trump as if he is harboring real Conservative ideas and Trump’s words have little resemblance to anything, truly, Conservative. 

People could argue Reagan’s points, quite effectively. No one can argue with Trump’s because most are incoherent and vague. 

 

[the moops]

This really shows how oblivious the left is to this and why most white voters can't stand them.  

It's really just old cranky white guys like yourself that can't stand them.

White 18-45 year olds vote democrat and the gap is increasing.

 

[doolin]

I can use the Defin method and just put everyone on ignore with an opposing view.

 

[Dedfin]

It's really just old cranky white guys like yourself that can't stand them.

White 18-45 year olds vote democrat and the gap is increasing.

I though jon mx was a 25 year old that just fi ished reading atlas shrugged. What do you mean old?

 

[jon_mx]

Hey GB, I noticed you posted a bunch after our conversation but never answered my question.  Here it is again:

"Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why?"

TIA for your thoughts, and sorry to everyone else for getting off-topic. 

To get back on topic:  I think I could do a fairly good job of arguing the old model of small-government, supply-side economics, trust the marketplace, etc. I don't agree with it, but there's logic and reason behind it, it's simply a different way of looking at the purpose and goals of government.  I couldn't even begin to argue for Trumpism, which in fairness nobody else seems able to do effectively either.

I think other groups would be better off than what African-Americans are.  If it was just an American thing, it would be pretty clear the history of racism and slavery played a huge role.  But you can go to other places in the world and see similar disparities.   In European countries blacks make much less than whites.  In the UK, blacks make up 2.7 percent of the population, but make up 13 percent of the prision population.  Maybe it could be the difference in skin color makes it more difficult to fit in and be accepted.   But then you see Indians with very dark skin color be the highest income earners.   

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Just wanted to check in and let all of you know that I feel persecuted here.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

Just wanted to check in and let all of you know that I feel persecuted here.  

that's your privilege as a white man

 

[jon_mx]

It's really just old cranky white guys like yourself that can't stand them.

White 18-45 year olds vote democrat and the gap is increasing.

Interesting spin, but not true.    It is all white males.  Trump won every age group including those 18-29.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think other groups would be better off than what African-Americans are.  If it was just an American thing, it would be pretty clear the history of racism and slavery played a huge role.  But you can go to other places in the world and see similar disparities.   In European countries blacks make much less than whites.  In the UK, blacks make up 2.7 percent of the population, but make up 13 percent of the prision population.  Maybe it could be the difference in skin color makes it more difficult to fit in and be accepted.   But then you see Indians with very dark skin color be the highest income earners.   

So are you saying that you think someone's skin color makes them inherently inferior? Because if you think another racial or ethnic group would be better off than African-Americans if they faced identical circumstances, that's the only possible explanation I know of, other than your odd "difference in skin color makes it more difficult to fit in and be accepted" argument that you debunked yourself.

FWIW I think you're totally wrong. I think the argument you're making here shows a very limited understanding of what African-Americans have faced in this country and elsewhere, not just due to slavery but do to countless acts of discrimination large and small that followed and that continue to the present day, from Jim Crow to redlining to predatory and discriminatory lending (Wells Fargo has faced two huge lawsuits on this in the last decade alone) to racial bias in law enforcement to targeted voter suppression (NC GOP was literally caught red handed doing this just a couple years ago) and on and on and on.  Just my opinion.

 

[jon_mx]

So are you saying that you think someone's skin color makes them inherently inferior? Because if you think another racial or ethnic group would be better off than African-Americans if they faced identical circumstances, that's the only possible explanation I know of, other than your odd "difference in skin color makes it more difficult to fit in and be accepted" argument that you debunked yourself.

FWIW I think you're totally wrong. I think the argument you're making here shows a very limited understanding of what African-Americans have faced in this country and elsewhere, not just due to slavery but do to countless acts of discrimination large and small that followed and that continue to the present day, from Jim Crow to redlining to predatory and discriminatory lending (Wells Fargo has faced two huge lawsuits on this in the last decade alone) to racial bias in law enforcement to targeted voter suppression (NC GOP was literally caught red handed doing this just a couple years ago) and on and on and on.  Just my opinion.

Inferior?  Would never say or imply that.  How much money one makes does not define who is superior.   It is a difficult issue to answer,  but simply blaming racism is not the answer as decades of failed policies seem to prove. 

 

[Zow]

I paid six figures to spend three years of my life being trained to argue two sides of a coin so I certainly hope so. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Inferior?  Would never say or imply that.  How much money one makes does not define who is superior.   It is a difficult issue to answer,  but simply blaming racism is not the answer as decades of failed policies seem to prove. 

Huh? Money?  What are you talking about 

I asked a simple question- do you think another minority group would be better off if they faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans.  You answered yes. That is dictionary-definition racism.  You’re declaring African-Americans to be inferior to other races, because you said other races who faced identical oppression and other circumstances would fare better than they have. Aren’t you?  What am i missing here?  Hell you even took it a step further and starting talking about crime w among people of African heritage in Europe.

I of course strongly disagree with what you’ve said here, assuming I’m understanding you correctly (if I’m not please clarify, happy to listen). I think any minority group who faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans through our national history (and global history-colonization and whathaveyou) would be in an identical situation today.

 

[-fish-]

The usual left-wing trolls that this forum tolerates.  

ahh, the jonmx persecution card.  predictable as a sunrise.

 

[-fish-]

I paid six figures to spend three years of my life being trained to argue two sides of a coin so I certainly hope so. 

There are some arguments that are both factually and logically difficult, if not impossible, to make.  Arguing that white privilege does not exist or that there is no racism inherent in our society are two such arguments.   

 

[Zow]

There are some arguments that are both factually and logically difficult, if not impossible, to make.  Arguing that white privilege does not exist or that there is no racism inherent in our society are two such arguments.   

Well, yeah.  But I interpreted the OP's question to mean opposing viewpoints on actually debatable issues.  E.g. abortion, border control, taxation issues, which acts to criminalize, etc.

 

[-fish-]

Well, yeah.  But I interpreted the OP's question to mean opposing viewpoints on actually debatable issues.  E.g. abortion, border control, taxation issues, which acts to criminalize, etc.

The original post, sure, but then the example went to white privilege before it turned into jon just embarrassing himself again.

 

[jon_mx]

Huh? Money?  What are you talking about 

I asked a simple question- do you think another minority group would be better off if they faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans.  You answered yes. That is dictionary-definition racism.  You’re declaring African-Americans to be inferior to other races, because you said other races who faced identical oppression and other circumstances would fare better than they have. Aren’t you?  What am i missing here?  Hell you even took it a step further and starting talking about crime w among people of African heritage in Europe.

I of course strongly disagree with what you’ve said here, assuming I’m understanding you correctly (if I’m not please clarify, happy to listen). I think any minority group who faced circumstances identical to those faced by African-Americans through our national history (and global history-colonization and whathaveyou) would be in an identical situation today.

Elites and activists across the world have adopted a culture of verbal tyranny in which they shut down any effort to reason or criticize blacks or black-majority nations by labeling such attempts as “racism” or “hate speech.” Thus, one can be certain that any suggestions that a race may indeed need to do something to remedy the situation will not be aired — not by the terrified people of other races. And anyone within the race who makes such a suggestion will be deemed weak and pandering or a sellout. Thus, no one will talk about the painful fact that most African and Caribbea nations have either failed or are about to collapse.

 

[Zow]

The original post, sure, but then the example went to white privilege before it turned into jon just embarrassing himself again.

Ah.  I didn't read any of the Jon stuff or really anything other than the OP. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Ah.  I didn't read any of the Jon stuff or really anything other than the OP. 

You'll be pleased to learn, as I was, that white privilege and institutional racism is a thing of the past.