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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (2 Viewers)

GoBirds said:
Oh you are talking just these recent lawsuits? I thought you were referring to over his career. 
 

You can try to create hypotheticals to make you feel better but he’s had thousands of successful business ventures and what 6 bankruptcies with most in AC where no one survived? That’s an outstanding success rate.....sorry. 
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He can pick em.

 
bigbottom said:
Back to the healing and moving forward topic. If the Democrats were somehow able to win both of the Georgia seats and take control of the Senate, would they be willing to focus on moderate judicial nominations that are likely to have more bipartisan support than progressive nominees?
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I'm not going to like anybody nominated by Biden, but he's the president, he gets to make the nomination, and the senate should confirm his selection except in extreme circumstances (like a Kavanaugh situation).  I expect that any Biden nominee will vote with Breyer/Kagan/Sotomayor in pretty much all newsworthy cases.

 
knowledge dropper said:
I think @GordonGekkoposts are well done and provocative.  Isn’t wasn’t too long ago the crew demanded everyone outside of the majority opinion show their work by backing up their opinions like they were writing a thesis.  
 
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There's a thread of people pasting four years of tweets mostly without their own thoughts.  But since people disagree with Gekko then it's poor form. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I'm not going to like anybody nominated by Biden, but he's the president, he gets to make the nomination, and the senate should confirm his selection except in extreme circumstances (like a Kavanaugh situation).  I expect that any Biden nominee will vote with Breyer/Kagan/Sotomayor in pretty much all newsworthy cases.
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This.

 
BladeRunner said:
This.
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This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 

 
bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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I think that would all be a good step in the right direction.  However, I think they will use the opportunity to TRY and move us closer to Socialism.  Biden might be our only hope at the moment - I don't think he's invested in the push further left than everyone else in his party seems to be, but we'll see.

I mean, for fooks sakes, The HOR yesterday presented a bill to remove gender-specific terms and started out the session with "Amen and AWoman".  That's a step in the WRONG direction.  It indicates they are highly focused on social justice.

And based off of what we've seen just in this thread I don't see much traction for healing and moving forward.

 
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bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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Well they started out with “Awoman,” so hopefully that fills you with confidence they will focus on issues middle America cares about.  

 
bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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Joe Biden doesn't have to abandon Dem policies to work towards healing a divided country. But Biden is a moderate and I suspect will lead as such. I do think he'll still support his healthcare agenda (he ran on it, we voted for it). But I believe he'll begin to bring us together with how he speaks. I think a lot of it will be the things he WON'T do, like refer to Nazi's as "good people" and stir up "wild" protests. I believe he won't lie at the rate the outgoing president has. He isn't going to demand the WH Press Secretary lie on his behalf and insist his inauguration crowd was the largest in history. He won't address the CIA in front of the Memorial Wall and complain how badly he's being treated by the press. He won't insult judges with Mexican heritage by saying they're incapable of judging him fairly.

With regards to the pandemic, he won't ignore red states, even if they're among the hardest hit. He'll lead a Federal response to the pandemic and not leave Governors to fight amongst themselves for supplies.

But he should most certainly lead and support Democratic policies. He's a Democrat, and was elected as one by a 7+ million vote majority nationwide.

ETA: if there's a plot uncovered to kidnap a GOP Governor, I believe he'll speak out against it and condemn it. If there's another bombing in a major city, he'll speak swiftly with condolence for the loss and condemn the action.

 
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Amused to Death said:
Joe Biden doesn't have to abandon Dem policies to work towards healing a divided country. But Biden is a moderate and I suspect will lead as such. I do think he'll still support his healthcare agenda (he ran on it, we voted for it). But I believe he'll begin to bring us together with how he speaks. I think a lot of it will be the things he WON'T do, like refer to Nazi's as "good people" and stir up "wild" protests. I believe he won't lie at the rate the outgoing president has. He isn't going to demand the WH Press Secretary lie on his behalf and insist his inauguration crowd was the largest in history. He won't address the CIA in front of the Memorial Wall and complain how badly he's being treated by the press. He won't insult judges with Mexican heritage by saying they're incapable of judging him fairly.

With regards to the pandemic, he won't ignore red states, even if they're among the hardest hit. He'll lead a Federal response to the pandemic and not leave Governors to fight amongst themselves for supplies.

But he should most certainly lead and support Democratic policies. He's a Democrat, and was elected as one by a 7+ million vote majority nationwide.
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Which, again, means nothing in a POTUS election.

 
bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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I suspect they'd settle for getting back to "normal" at this point.  That seems to be what the choosing of Biden would indicate.  Seems like we're really at the "get back to basics" stage.  If they were smart, they'd rush to the center and fill that void left by the severe sprint to the right the last four years.  Yeah, some have sprinted left as well, but the participation numbers on each side are significantly different.

 
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bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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I guess I don't understand what is meant by "healing and moving forward" in terms of governance.  Are you suggesting that Democrats should actively NOT do what their constituents elected them to do, in order to...  what?

 
The Commish said:
I suspect they'd settle for getting back to "normal" at this point.  That seems to be what the choosing of Biden would indicate.  Seems like we're really at the "get back to basics" stage.  If they were smart, they'd rush to the center and fill that void left by the severe sprint to the right the last four years.  Yeah, some have sprinted left as well, but the participation numbers on each side are significantly different.
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This is exactly right IMO.  I don't think Democrats need to offer any olive branches to anybody.  Just going to back to normal and revivifying the various norms that Trump has trashed is fine.  This means dropping stuff like court-packing, but by all means feel free to nominate justices who the Democratic caucus can support.  

 
Rich Conway said:
I guess I don't understand what is meant by "healing and moving forward" in terms of governance.  Are you suggesting that Democrats should actively NOT do what their constituents elected them to do, in order to...  what?
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Biden’s constituents include Republicans and Trump voters. What I’m suggesting is that taking actions that are more moderate and have a greater chance at bipartisan support may help promote healing, and that avoiding actions that will generate heated opposition may serve that same end. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Does that apply to everyone?  
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Probably...Ive seen them tell others before not to post walls of text.  This is not some new thing because a "Trump supporter" or whatever was the one posting it.  And Id suspect most of those supporting his posting now would feel differently if it was me posting those long posts...or tim...or squis.

Speaking of which...comparing crazy long posts to a 140 character post of a tweet (and the thread which was about those of POTUS) does not seem to be a very strong comparison at all.  The whole point is the way which very long posts muck up threads.  Similar to when people used to troll by posting long recipes.  Moderators put a stop to that as well.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The Commish said:
I suspect they'd settle for getting back to "normal" at this point.  That seems to be what the choosing of Biden would indicate.  Seems like we're really at the "get back to basics" stage.  If they were smart, they'd rush to the center and fill that void left by the severe sprint to the right the last four years.  Yeah, some have sprinted left as well, but the participation numbers on each side are significantly different.
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This is exactly right IMO.  I don't think Democrats need to offer any olive branches to anybody.  Just going to back to normal and revivifying the various norms that Trump has trashed is fine.  This means dropping stuff like court-packing, but by all means feel free to nominate justices who the Democratic caucus can support.  
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And inherently, given the mass migration right, that "side" is going to be asked to move much further than the other "side", so instead of doing that we'll just hear more "whataboutisms" and false equivalence arguments.  That's not to say the Dem party doesn't also have work to do.  They do.

 
bigbottom said:
Biden’s constituents include Republicans and Trump voters. What I’m suggesting is that taking actions that are more moderate and have a greater chance at bipartisan support may help promote healing, and that avoiding actions that will generate heated opposition may serve that same end. 
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I think he will try...though, I suspect for a while some of the things will generate heated opposition anyway (especially if McConnell is still presiding over the Senate.

He and the House will definitely make a push to shore up healthcare and the ACA.  That, while overall having support in this country...will still be a hard sell with Republicans in the Senate. 

 
sho nuff said:
Probably...Ive seen them tell others before not to post walls of text.  This is not some new thing because a "Trump supporter" or whatever was the one posting it.  And Id suspect most of those supporting his posting now would feel differently if it was me posting those long posts...or tim...or squis.

Speaking of which...comparing crazy long posts to a 140 character post of a tweet (and the thread which was about those of POTUS) does not seem to be a very strong comparison at all.  The whole point is the way which very long posts muck up threads.  Similar to when people used to troll by posting long recipes.  Moderators put a stop to that as well.
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The amount of the text is irrelevant.  GG's shtick is as annoying as squis's shtick.  Neither are productive and are pretty clearly done NOT to foster discussion.  The best thing they provide is entertainment of the "sides" trying to convince the other "side" (and themselves I guess) how their "side" is different....they aren't...two sides of the same coin.

 
sho nuff said:
bigbottom said:
Biden’s constituents include Republicans and Trump voters. What I’m suggesting is that taking actions that are more moderate and have a greater chance at bipartisan support may help promote healing, and that avoiding actions that will generate heated opposition may serve that same end. 
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I think he will try...though, I suspect for a while some of the things will generate heated opposition anyway (especially if McConnell is still presiding over the Senate.

He and the House will definitely make a push to shore up healthcare and the ACA.  That, while overall having support in this country...will still be a hard sell with Republicans in the Senate. 
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And I hope he still supports legislation that promotes renewable energy and combat climate changes. And laws that protect the rights of everyone. And promote a separation of church and state.

 
bigbottom said:
Biden’s constituents include Republicans and Trump voters. What I’m suggesting is that taking actions that are more moderate and have a greater chance at bipartisan support may help promote healing, and that avoiding actions that will generate heated opposition may serve that same end. 
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I couldn't disagree more with the second sentence.  The reality is it doesn't matter what positions Biden takes, Trump supporters will rail against them no matter what and Fox News, OAN, etc. will say Biden is a socialist.  In terms of governance, the correct path forward is to promote policies that are best for the country, regardless of how the opposition will feel about it.  If you can get such legislation passed by offering something to the GOP Senators in return, great.  If not, bypass them.  In terms of actual governance, the last thing we need is for Biden et. al. to sit around and do nothing for fear of pissing off a group who are determined to be pissed off regardless.

Now, in terms of messaging, Biden et. al. should be graceful and not antagonize.  They shouldn't gloat, shouldn't proclaim "a new progressive regime", etc.  But that's not at all the same as governing.

 
sho nuff said:
Probably...Ive seen them tell others before not to post walls of text.  This is not some new thing because a "Trump supporter" or whatever was the one posting it.  And Id suspect most of those supporting his posting now would feel differently if it was me posting those long posts...or tim...or squis.

Speaking of which...comparing crazy long posts to a 140 character post of a tweet (and the thread which was about those of POTUS) does not seem to be a very strong comparison at all.  The whole point is the way which very long posts muck up threads.  Similar to when people used to troll by posting long recipes.  Moderators put a stop to that as well.
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Yeah, and, like them or not, Trump's tweets are news items as they are considered official statements of POTUS (they are archived by some governmental agency). 

 
bigbottom said:
Biden’s constituents include Republicans and Trump voters. What I’m suggesting is that taking actions that are more moderate and have a greater chance at bipartisan support may help promote healing, and that avoiding actions that will generate heated opposition may serve that same end. 
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So democrats be democrats?  Govern like they always govern?  Back to normal?  As opposed to the alternative narrative offered by Trump voting republicans?

ETA:  No they should not do this!

 
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sho nuff said:
Probably...Ive seen them tell others before not to post walls of text.  This is not some new thing because a "Trump supporter" or whatever was the one posting it.  And Id suspect most of those supporting his posting now would feel differently if it was me posting those long posts...or tim...or squis.

Speaking of which...comparing crazy long posts to a 140 character post of a tweet (and the thread which was about those of POTUS) does not seem to be a very strong comparison at all.  The whole point is the way which very long posts muck up threads.  Similar to when people used to troll by posting long recipes.  Moderators put a stop to that as well.
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“Write your own thoughts” and “never copy and paste anything” is the issue (I am fine with us being told to not having annoyingly long posts). If that applies to all, then no one can ever post a tweet or link to an article. And if it doesn’t apply to all, then it’s a slippery slope where posters are held to different standards. 

 
The Commish said:
The amount of the text is irrelevant.  GG's shtick is as annoying as squis's shtick.  Neither are productive and are pretty clearly done NOT to foster discussion.  The best thing they provide is entertainment of the "sides" trying to convince the other "side" (and themselves I guess) how their "side" is different....they aren't...two sides of the same coin.
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In this case...no, I don't think it is.  As the moderators have made it clear that the length of posts is an issue.

And I agree that it isn't productive to foster discussion. A tweet can be, an article can be.  Long drawn out posts where you are just taking the whole article and not addressing it even to a topic (or even a tweet and just posting and not speaking on it...that I agree does not do a thing for discourse.

 
Ghost Rider said:
“Write your own thoughts” and “never copy and paste anything” is the issue (I am fine with us being told to not having annoyingly long posts). If that applies to all, then no one can ever post a tweet or link to an article. And if it doesn’t apply to all, then it’s a slippery slope where posters are held to different standards. 
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That I agree with...any link, unless just breaking some news, should be accompanied by someone's actual thoughts.  Walls of text...and even stand along tweets...are not that.

I believe it does apply to all...as this was not the first time people have been warned to not post walls of text.  Nobody is being held to a different standard.

Also...probably best to move forward...with the thread.  There have been those to talk about moderation elsewhere.

 
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sho nuff said:
That I agree with...any link, unless just breaking some news, should be accompanied by someone's actual thoughts.  Walls of text...and even stand along tweets...are not that.

I believe it does apply to all...as this was not the first time people have been warned to not post walls of text.  Nobody is being held to a different standard.
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If Gekko is told he can only post his own thoughts and to never copy and paste from an outside source, while others can, then, yes, the standard is different. 
 

That is what I am talking about, not the walls of text, so we can put that part of the discussion to bed. 

 
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bigbottom said:
This is all very interesting. I’m trying to figure out what the Democrats are offering in terms of concessions and compromise in the name of healing and moving forward. I suggested agreeing not to pursue indictments of Trump for conduct to date and that was pretty soundly opposed (I think I was the only one stating that I was even willing to consider it). I suggested focusing on more moderate candidates for the Supreme Court in the event the Democrats control the Senate, and that seems to generate pretty much no interest. There has been talk about working to get a number of progressive policies in place if the Democrats take control of the Senate. So I’m honestly curious about what substantive compromises, if any, folks on the left are willing to make in the interests of promoting healing and moving forward. 
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You’re wrong that no one agreed with you about not pursuing an indictment of Trump: I did. I also agree with you about the judges. And I would argue that if moderation is the key to healing, then the fact that Joe Biden is our President, rather than Bernie Sanders or Liz Warren, should be evidence of Democratic intentions to be moderate. 

But none of this really matters IMO because I think you’re wrong to focus on policy: policy is never the key to healing. Rhetoric is. We need leaders who don’t denigrate the other side and who make us feel good again as a nation, who lift up our spirits. And we need good things to happen. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
“Write your own thoughts” and “never copy and paste anything” is the issue (I am fine with us being told to not having annoyingly long posts). If that applies to all, then no one can ever post a tweet or link to an article. And if it doesn’t apply to all, then it’s a slippery slope where posters are held to different standards. 
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Everyone else uses copy-paste in moderation, which is how it should be used. Only one poster makes it his whole shtick to the annoyance of everyone else. If a person can't do something in moderation, that one person shouldn't do it at all.

 
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bigbottom said:
Back to the healing and moving forward topic. If the Democrats were somehow able to win both of the Georgia seats and take control of the Senate, would they be willing to focus on moderate judicial nominations that are likely to have more bipartisan support than progressive nominees?
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The biggest shame is that there are non-moderate judges. Feel like it should be a prerequisite to judging to not have extreme views on much of anything.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Everyone else uses copy-paste in moderation, which is how it should be used. Only one poster makes it his whole shtick to the annoyance of everyone else. If a person can't do something in moderation, that one person shouldn't do it at all.
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Are we sure that “everyone” finds his shtick annoying? 

Everyone else uses copy and paste in moderation?  Does Faust use copy and paste in moderation in the Shark Pool?  

 
After all what were the elements that brought about the Trump presidency in the first place? Fear, resentment, anger. 

Fear that America was losing its greatness. 
Fear of multiculturalism and that white people will soon be a minority (yes I know some Trump supporters will reject this statement but the polling after the 2016 election gave strong evidence that it was a leading factor.)                         
Fear of globalism and international trade, and changes to traditional economies especially in the rust belt. 
Fear of illegal immigration, and legal immigration of non-whites. 
Resentment and anger against the “elites” in both parties who had allowed these things to happen. 

These fears and resentments and anger haven’t gone away. If we are to heal as a nation we need to accept the fact that there are millions of people among us who have these feelings, consciously or subconsciously. And we need to find a way to deal with that. 

 
timschochet said:
After all what were the elements that brought about the Trump presidency in the first place? Fear, resentment, anger. 

Fear that America was losing its greatness. 
Fear of multiculturalism and that white people will soon be a minority (yes I know some Trump supporters will reject this statement but the polling after the 2016 election gave strong evidence that it was a leading factor.)                         
Fear of globalism and international trade, and changes to traditional economies especially in the rust belt. 
Fear of illegal immigration, and legal immigration of non-whites. 
Resentment and anger against the “elites” in both parties who had allowed these things to happen. 

These fears and resentments and anger haven’t gone away. If we are to heal as a nation we need to accept the fact that there are millions of people among us who have these feelings, consciously or subconsciously. And we need to find a way to deal with that. 
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A lot of this seems accurate.  The way to "deal with it" isn't to do nothing for fear of upsetting people.  It's to proactively promote policies that, you know, actually help with some of the actual issues on this list.  Admittedly, there's not much that can be done, policy-wise, to assuage fears that "America is losing its greatness" or fears of multiculturalism.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
bigbottom said:
Back to the healing and moving forward topic. If the Democrats were somehow able to win both of the Georgia seats and take control of the Senate, would they be willing to focus on moderate judicial nominations that are likely to have more bipartisan support than progressive nominees?
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I'm not going to like anybody nominated by Biden, but he's the president, he gets to make the nomination, and the senate should confirm his selection except in extreme circumstances (like a Kavanaugh situation).  I expect that any Biden nominee will vote with Breyer/Kagan/Sotomayor in pretty much all newsworthy cases
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You both know that ANY nominee will be cast as a leftist, regardless of their actual judicial positions.  I anticipate McConnell simply blocking all SCOTUS nominees (and possibly all federal court nominees) from Biden and leaving the seats open.  It's the obvious next step in the reduction of politics to a zero-sum game, something at which McConnell has shown a deft hand.

 
The Z Machine said:
You both know that ANY nominee will be cast as a leftist, regardless of their actual judicial positions.  I anticipate McConnell simply blocking all SCOTUS nominees (and possibly all federal court nominees) from Biden and leaving the seats open.  It's the obvious next step in the reduction of politics to a zero-sum game, something at which McConnell has shown a deft hand.
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This isn't exactly a bold prediction.  He has done exactly the above in the past and has already promised to block all Democrat legislation, even if it's a good bill, in the future.

 
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