beerbuff
Footballguy
Not much weirder than Montgomery moving from WR to RB for Green Bay or Riddick doing the same in Detroit or Terrell Pryor going from QB to WR.
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Duke Johnson RB Dolphins (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Biabreakable
- Start date
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Maybe it's all the successful rbs who've made the transition, oh wait there's been none. I think there may have been a couple of badly written articles though.
az_prof
Footballguy
Watch this video! He seems to indicate that he is "following Coach" around all over to different position practices. When asked if others do this he sort of hesitates and then answers equivocally. What the heck is going on? It seems odd to me that a HC would be bringing a backup RB with him around the field.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Browns-asking-a-lot-from-Duke-Johnson-and-he-couldn’t-be-happier/38fb4f34-08c4-4520-bfc0-0dcb5614c2d8
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Browns-asking-a-lot-from-Duke-Johnson-and-he-couldn’t-be-happier/38fb4f34-08c4-4520-bfc0-0dcb5614c2d8
Chaka
Footballguy
IDK it just seems like they are trying to make him a jack-of-all-trades which makes sense to me.
I read this as further verification that Crowell has a hammerlock on the lead back job. It feels like they are trying to figure out ways to still utilize DJ without compromising Crowell.
az_prof
Footballguy
I tend to agree with Chaka here. Crowell is clearly the every down back and they are trying to find ways to get Duke more involved but not at Crowell's expense. I've been trying to understand how and what "using Duke in the slot" means and this story provides more information. It sounds to me like they may use both backs at the same time and change formations around to mess up the defense and take advantage of mismatches. Here's the link:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/08/duke_johnson_in_the_mold_of_a.html
"The goal is for Johnson (5-9, 210) to be the X factor once the ball is snapped. Now you see him, now you don't. When Brock Osweiler, who will start Thursday night's preseason opener against the Saints, shouts "move!'' at the line of scrimmage -- everyone shifts to a new spot, and Johnson often becomes a formidable receiver.
"So how do you treat Duke? Do you treat him as a running back?'' Saunders said. "If so, you're probably getting in a lot of base defense, and now from there you shift out. You shift him out, now you get matchups on linebackers and strong safeties and interior people. They treat him as a receiver, and now you have a game advantage in the run game because you have one less physical person.
"So if you have a player like that and it allows you to be very creative on offense, it allows you to expand and play from sideline to sideline with players that are normally in the backfield.""
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Hue Jackson says Duke Johnson is not a receiver
Crowell played on 52 offensive snaps 79% of the Browns plays.
Just noting from the game book that Johnson played 50 snaps in week one 76% of the Browns offensive plays.
Crowell played on 52 offensive snaps 79% of the Browns plays.
Duke Johnson is an interest
How the Browns offense is developing is interesting. With Coleman out now, they are really thin at wide receiver. Regardless of where Duke Lines up it seems things are aligning for him to see a lot of passes this year. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he leads the Browns in receiving yards at the end of the year. Maybe in the 600-750 yards range. He could be a very decent PPR RB the rest of the way.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Considering how poorly Crowell has played so far they may need help at RB as well.
Last week Duke Johnson played 39 snaps 55% to Crowells 32 snaps 45% Johnson had 4 rushing attempts 6 targets 3 receptions Croweell 10 rushing attempts one target zero receptions.
I think it is pretty obvious that Hue Jackson prefers a bigger RB like Crowell or Jeremy Hill when he was with the Bengals over a smaller more dynamic RB such as Duke Johnson or Giovani Bernard with the Bengals. In both cases I think he is playing the lesser skilled player over the better one, the only reason I can see for this is size. They are not better football players. Jackson has some strange ideas about the weather favoring a larger RB as well, which makes no sense to me either, and also shows me that lack of reason and logic in Jackson's thought process.
The way I see this going is that the Browns will be in chase situations frequently and be forced to play Duke Johnson more because of it. As a runner or receiver and that Duke Johnson is being under valued because of the assumption (with basis of Jacksons comments) of Crowell being their primary RB.
Last week Duke Johnson played 39 snaps 55% to Crowells 32 snaps 45% Johnson had 4 rushing attempts 6 targets 3 receptions Croweell 10 rushing attempts one target zero receptions.
I think it is pretty obvious that Hue Jackson prefers a bigger RB like Crowell or Jeremy Hill when he was with the Bengals over a smaller more dynamic RB such as Duke Johnson or Giovani Bernard with the Bengals. In both cases I think he is playing the lesser skilled player over the better one, the only reason I can see for this is size. They are not better football players. Jackson has some strange ideas about the weather favoring a larger RB as well, which makes no sense to me either, and also shows me that lack of reason and logic in Jackson's thought process.
The way I see this going is that the Browns will be in chase situations frequently and be forced to play Duke Johnson more because of it. As a runner or receiver and that Duke Johnson is being under valued because of the assumption (with basis of Jacksons comments) of Crowell being their primary RB.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The Browns may have had a bit of a WR crunch with Coleman going out. Higgins stepped in but it looks like Duke got to play in the slot. I'm not sure why that would continue or why the Browns would want that. I think that was Hue's point, I'm guessing he wants a bonafide WR in there.
I've been holding Johnson primarily on the theory that a dual-threat RB like he is could/should be pretty valuable in that offense if Crowell were to be injured.
However now I'm at the point of questioning whether Johnson would even get the featured role in that situation. Maybe I'm overthinking it though, since in 3 games the only other RB to get carries is Dayes, and he has only 3 of them.
Not a Crowell owner, FWIW.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
I've had Duke on my roster all year, but I've only started him a couple times. It's like he's always decent, but never enough of an upside play for me to feel confident about rolling him out there on a weekly basis. I have Bell and Miller as my RBs, and my flex has switched between Parker and Darkwa. As those guys have fallen off, next week could be Duke's week (already started Darkwa last night). Other options would be Sanu or Corey Davis, but as of this moment I think he's a better play.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Although I agree the Browns should use Duke Johnson more, this article doesn't really say that they will. The quote is from the RB coach not the OC or head coach.Faust said:
As we know from Hue Jacksons years in Cincinnati and also now with Cleveland, he has a preference for a bigger RB. He even thinks this matter in cold weather games.
So while I think they should use Duke Johnson more than Crowell. I will believe it when I see it.
Maybe if Hue gets canned at some point this year then we see a major change happen. As long as he is calling the shots though, I doubt it.
That said Duke Johnson keeps performing well anyways. Currently RB 14 in PPR leagues, just ahead of Jordan Howard. Thats remarkable for a RB only averaging 4.6 rushing attempts per game. He leads the team in receptions at this point, also averaging 4.6 receptions per game.
He has been a top 5 receiving RB all 3 of his seasons so far. Very good player deserving of more opportunity.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
FWIW Duke Johnson is only one spot behind Lamar Miller in PPR scoring. Less than 1 point per game separates these two. MIller has 4 times the rushing attempts, but only half the targets in the passing game.zftcg said:
In standard scoring formats the gap is much wider, but Duke Johnson is currently RB 19 in standard. The yards off the receptions still add a lot more points than a typical rushing attempt will.
Yeah that's the irony. Didn't know he was on par with Miller (I'm in a 0.5 PPR league), but that tracks with what I've observed. The difference is that, heading into the week, I always feel more comfortable with Miller because of the guaranteed volume. Other than Woodhead, Sproles and 2015 Dion Lewis, scatbacks have always felt like a risky start.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree with you and I would always prefer to start a RB who is getting more opportunity.
Just pointing out that Duke Johnson is scoring pretty close to Miller even with a lot less opportunity. The quality of his opportunities is better and Johnson has been very productive as a receiver his entire career. Career 9.1 yards per reception is well above the average for a RB which is 7.3
I guess the question is whether he has reached Sproles/Woodhead status or if he's more like Riddick/Thompson, who will have good games but are tough to trust on a weekly basis.
Given my flex options of Darkwa, Parker and Sanu, I'm starting to think Duke may be my most reliable choice going forward.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well it has been inconsistent and perhaps more like RIddick/Thompson than Sproles/Woodhead in their best years (RB one type numbers). That said Riddick was pretty consistent in 2015 and Thompson pretty solid this year before he was injured.
For Johnson, he hasn't had as much opportunity as those guys were getting in their best seasons, so its a bit less consistent than that I would say. But Johnson has scored pretty well except for games where the Browns had more difficult match ups, such as the Vikings and Texans games. The Tttans game was somewhat borderline startable also.
What lines up here is that the bad games came against defenses that are better against the run. Also the Vikings game Johnson was concussed, so he missed some opportunities because of that.
The Browns should almost always be in chase situations which forces them to play Johnson more. The dump off passes to Johnson in these garbage situations should have some consistency.
Looking at the Browns remaining schedule, I see mostly neutral match ups for him until week 17 vs the Steelers. Some of these might even be considered good match ups, such as against the Chargers, who I think should be playing better defense than they are.
For me it would be a tough decision to start him over Parker, who I think is capable of some very big games. In most of the games remaining I would likely be more comfortable with him than Darkwa or Sanu though.
These are not easy decisions. I would hesitate to hope for more opportunity for Johnson because of Hue Jackson. If Jackson is fired at some point then maybe things will change and they actually do start using Johnson more.
I agree with you as far as trying to follow the opportunities in making these decisions, and Johnson hasn't been getting enough opportunity to really be confident in starting him, even though he has outperformed those opportunities.
He is more solid in PPR where he is averaging 4.6 receptions a game. In .5 PPR this is only 2.3 points or 38% of a TD instead of 4.6 about 77% of a TD.
I think his next 3 games are good match ups. I would think about benching him against the Ravens and Steelers though.
You inspired me to look up his game log. In 0.5 PPR, he has reached double figures six times in 10 games, plus one where he scored 9.5. By comparison, Parker has three double figure games in seven games, plus a 9.6 and a 9.9. (The difference is largely attributable to DJ's 4TDs to Parker's one.) Miller, meanwhile, also has six double figure games, plus two high 9s. But the real difference is that his other two were 7.9 and 6.8. That's a really reliable floor. Duke's is a little lower (but still pretty good).
So yeah, Duke is having a very good season for a scatback, which is still a tick below reliable RB2 numbers. He's on pace for around 60 rec, 1K YFS and 6-7 TDs. Definitely deserves consideration as a weekly flex.
Of the remaining games, there are no clear stay-aways (unless you play to Week 17). I agree you have to judge the Chargers by their more recent performances, plus their biggest weakness is on the ground, so that might be more of a Crowell game. And yeah, be careful with Baltimore, too, although he did ok against them in the first game.
I may not start him in every game ROS. But this whole conversation has helped confirm for me that I should be giving him more consideration than I have so far.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Good luck with your decisions.
Always the hardest part of fantasy in my opinion, who to start each week. Every given Sunday. You never really know.
I don't think I am particularly good at choosing the right players each week,
As you say though Duke Johnson is worth considering. I might lean more towards Parker, but Matt Moore prefers Stills, so Duke is worth considering over him I think.
Always the hardest part of fantasy in my opinion, who to start each week. Every given Sunday. You never really know.
I don't think I am particularly good at choosing the right players each week,
As you say though Duke Johnson is worth considering. I might lean more towards Parker, but Matt Moore prefers Stills, so Duke is worth considering over him I think.
Just agreed to a 3 year extension; 7.7 guaranteed
https://twitter.com/mikegarafolo/status/1004815661992996864?s=21
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1004814888135512066
https://twitter.com/mikegarafolo/status/1004815661992996864?s=21
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1004814888135512066
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Great deal for Johnson. Sucks that he isn't going to a team that will use him more, but that is a pretty hefty contract for a non-elite RB these days.
Don't own him or a Brown RB in fantasy so this is not coming from that angle when I say that he should have put more trust in his ability and signing that contract he did himself a disservice both monetarily and professionally.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
lol... as a pass catching back he's earning more or almost the same as these rbs:
Marshawn lynch
Mark Ingram
Dion Lewis
Comparing Duke's 5 mil/season to other 3rd down Rbs:
James White: 4 mil/season
Theo Riddick: 3.8 mil/season
Chris Thompson: 3.5 mil/season
yeah... awful deal by his agent
It's worthless comparing his contract to players who signed years ago.
He is younger and with a clean injury history vs guys like Dion and Thompson and younger and better than guys like White and Riddick. You sure did not bring up Mckinnon who blew him away.
What if he's a lot more than a third down back? He'll never get a chance to know that or prove that he's more.
So yea, I think it's a bad deal. He just pigeonholed himself as a strict passing down back and I yes I think he would have made more money on the open market next year. He's made "only" a little over $3M in his career so certainly see appeal of locking up at least another $7.5M and not risking it but I think he'd have got paid more and had a real shot at a bigger role on the open market.
I'm for sure not only one who thinks this about his contract.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
McKinnon isn't a 3rd down back. hes a lead back in SF. hes making a little over 7 million to be "the guy". Duke makes 70% of that playing 1/3 downs that Mckinnon is being asked to play. I dont know about you, but I'd definitely take 70% of my current pay to work 33% of the volume I'm currently working
Dion Lewis just signed this same off season
James white signed a little over 1 year ago
Riddick signed less than 2 years ago.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I think you're kind of making his point for him here. A year ago we thought McKinnon was just a 3rd down guy, but when he hit the open market he found a coach who saw him as "the guy" and was willing to pay him as "the guy". Maybe Duke could have landed a similar lead back role had he tested the market next offseason.
There is some truth to your second part (even if I'm not sure I agree on the numbers....Duke's total contract is worth 50% of McKinnon's and his guaranteed portion is more like 40%). With all the stuff coming out about post-football health of these guys in recent years I think some guys (Jonathan Stewart re-signing in Carolina when DeAngelo was still there comes to mind) are willing to make a little less to save their bodies. However that still seems to be an edge case and most guys certainly still prefer to be the lead guy if they can find someone willing to let them.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
if that's the point he was trying to make, I would agree with him. I'm just not sure the market will be there in 1 year for him to go somewhere and be "the guy." I guess personally I wish he'd had been able to come to Green Bay. and I'm sure the rb situation will be way different in 1 year.
I do agree that he might have found a lead back role, but do we know if he even wants one? maybe hes content being an 3rd down guy. not sure. I have to imagine his agent knows better than I do
ZWK
Footballguy
Last year Duke Johnson played 565 offensive snaps, which was 14th most among RBs. For comparison, Mark Ingram played 571 and Marshawn Lynch played 462. In 2016 Johnson played 457 snaps (27th) and in 2015 it was 561 snaps (15th). Not an every-down back, but still a pretty substantial part of the offense.
Chaka
Footballguy
Not sure why people think DJ is merely a 3rd down CoP guy. He has looked good enough carrying the ball and at 5'9", 210lbs he looks sturdy enough. Maybe they just signed their long term #2 RB.
I think they signed Hyde to replace Crowell in the near term and were surprised/thrilled to see Chubb available so they grabbed him too. I could easily see them ditching Hyde after the season.
I think they signed Hyde to replace Crowell in the near term and were surprised/thrilled to see Chubb available so they grabbed him too. I could easily see them ditching Hyde after the season.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Elevencents
Footballguy
What are people’s expectations of Duke this year? I normally avoid crowded backfields like the plague but he finished as RB #14 in our league last year and went in the 11th round. Assuming I can get him around that ADP this year hard to pass on him.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think the Browns signing Jarvis Landry hurts Duke Johnsons opportunity as a receiver. He led the Browns in targets last season. While I do expect that Johnson will still be pretty involved in the passing game he isn't likely to lead the team in targets again in 2018.
I like Duke Johnson just not the team he plays for or the situation. I expect his opportunities to be fewer this season than last.
Despite that he does offer some value as the 84th player and RB 34 according to recent ADP. If you are thin at RB going into the 8th round he offers some value there.
tombonneau
Footballguy
FWIW, in 14-team .5ppr dynasty, I'm looking to bolster my RB3/4 spot and am targeting Duke. Same as you, he was RB14 in my league. I think he's a great buy low-ish. The drive by headline is "Browns sign Hyde and draft Chubb." That's much easier to digest but much less important than the contract extension. That tells me he will stay involved in the offense. Which, btw, is now being run by Todd Haley, who loves throwing to his backs.
I think Duke is a killer value as a ppr RB2 that you can get at RB3/4 prices. Yeah he has limited upside, but I love a nice steady point accumulator in my RB2/flex spot, especially if you are pairing him with an RB1 stud.
Elevencents
Footballguy
I’m looking to hopefully have Kamara and Cook as my 1a/b so I think Duke is great value when looked at as a guy who can fill in for either bye weeks, or if you catch the injury bug. Can he be relied on week to week? Doubtful. But he is very cheap insurance if you have a strong starting duo.
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
Anyone still keeping him on their rosters? I keep looking at some of the points he put up last year (PPR, obviously), and feel like there's some value to retaining him, but he's been awfully under-utilized so far.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
They drafted a RB. Signed a free agent RB. Signed a free agent WR. Drafted a WR.
What did you expect to happen with more mouths to feed? You're better off with Theo Reddick.
What did you expect to happen with more mouths to feed? You're better off with Theo Reddick.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
His usage has been kind of baffling up to this point but keep an eye on him moving forward.
Higgins is dealing with a knee injury and Willies who flashed last week fractured his collarbone in practice. Hue, although unreliable has talked about getting Duke more involved in the passing game and CLE truly may have no other choice now.
And the truth is he was the best pass catching back that I watched last year. Week in and week out I watched him make unbelievable catches, it's completely dumbfounding that CLE hasn't found a way to get him involved.
Higgins is dealing with a knee injury and Willies who flashed last week fractured his collarbone in practice. Hue, although unreliable has talked about getting Duke more involved in the passing game and CLE truly may have no other choice now.
And the truth is he was the best pass catching back that I watched last year. Week in and week out I watched him make unbelievable catches, it's completely dumbfounding that CLE hasn't found a way to get him involved.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I think this week he will get a lot more touches, not just Higgins dinged and Willies out but they tried utilizing Chubb in the passing game last week and that didn't work and they were sniffing around Rishard Mathews and even if they sign him it is too late in the week for him to see any touches.
Meanwhile the light bulb over Hue Jackson turned on where he remembered he already has Duke Johnson on his roster and he's being under utilized.
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Nate Ulrich @ByNateUlrich 5h5 hours ago
#Browns HC Hue Jackson on RB Duke Johnson: I understand everybody's frustration when they're not getting the ball and they're used to getting the ball, we'll work through it, he's a huge part of what we want to do, we've got to find ways to get him the ball
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Nate Ulrich @ByNateUlrich 5h5 hours ago
#Browns HC Hue Jackson said WR Derrick Willies injured shoulder during today's practice and did not finish practice. Hue said "we'll see" when asked if he's optimistic about Willies' chances to play Sunday. Hue pointed out Damion Ratley and Duke Johnson are candidates to fill in.
Meanwhile the light bulb over Hue Jackson turned on where he remembered he already has Duke Johnson on his roster and he's being under utilized.
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Nate Ulrich @ByNateUlrich 5h5 hours ago
#Browns HC Hue Jackson on RB Duke Johnson: I understand everybody's frustration when they're not getting the ball and they're used to getting the ball, we'll work through it, he's a huge part of what we want to do, we've got to find ways to get him the ball
---------------------------------------------------
Nate Ulrich @ByNateUlrich 5h5 hours ago
#Browns HC Hue Jackson said WR Derrick Willies injured shoulder during today's practice and did not finish practice. Hue said "we'll see" when asked if he's optimistic about Willies' chances to play Sunday. Hue pointed out Damion Ratley and Duke Johnson are candidates to fill in.
