Carolina WR Strategy. (1 Viewer)

[Borden]

Some good points there. Extending a bit:

All of those guys I like have a higher floor than Benjamin, imo because they have succeeded on some level. Dobson's sample size is small though.

- I have the same level of faith in Bridgewater that you have in Benjamin, and I'm dubious of Patterson's ability to run a variety of routes (caught a lot of short dump off type passes last year), which is part of why I seem to be driving the Jennings is undervalued bus

- I think Jones' targets will increase which will offset the TD randomness. I like his skillset quite a bit.

- Hopkins is a play on talent and recency bias aka 2nd year receivers often fall by the wayside if they don't produce immediately. IIRC he did well initially before Houston imploded on itself.

Good discussion, you have me thinking over my options here which can only help on draft day

IMO it's about upside in the 10th round. I probably have most of my starters in place and I'm looking to hit home runs. Do you see any of these other guys with the potential to hit a higher ceiling? Honest question.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

yeah, they're different players --- I'll admit I don't watch these guys in college so I don't know wtf I'm talking about, but you can't just throw 250 targets out there and assume he'll get half of them.

yeah, he's big and all that, but how often do you see rookie te light things up?

antonio gates put up 24/400/2 his rookie year

plaxico burress gave you 22/273/0 --- being big isn't enough to interest me

didn't benjamin only have 2 years of college production?

give me some comps on players like that in the nfl.

gross retiring leaves that o-line as a dumpster fire, particularly at the tackles, and you're talking about a team whose star receiver put up 64/745/4 last year with gross on over 100 targets, albeit at a slightly different altitude.

I think it's possible cam's completion % drops 5%, I think it's possible they throw a bit less, including a few more plays where he pulls the ball down and scrambles, I think cotchery and olsen might soak up a few extra targets, and I think the rb position might get targeted an extra 30x

if benjamin's game is downfield, exactly how long do you think cam's going to have to drop back and throw the ball this year?

from pff

• Newton led the league with 223 deep drops and he fared well at +7.4.

do you think this will change any without gross?

he also took 23 sacks on those drops and scrambled 24x --- both are also league leaders.

also from pff

In 2013, Newton scrambled when not under pressure just 3.8% of the time. When he was under pressure, he ended up scrambling 13.2%

The Panthers lost Jordan Gross and Travelle Wharton this past offseason. They had a combined PFF Pass Block rating of +26.6 last year while the rest of the offensive line had an overall rating of -13.8. Replacing Gross at left tackle is Nate Chandler.

.........a Carolina line that ranked as the sixth worst pass-blocking unit in 2013 [and that's with wharton and gross -- my note]

nate chandler is a 2012 udfa defensive lineman who converted to RG last year.

their other option is to move their terrible RT over and plug chandler in over on that side..

jordan gross was in the pro bowl last year, for whatever that's worth

I'm not saying this dude can't do well, but I'm skeptical of any rookie wr, particularly one with limited play, and I'm skeptical of the carolina passing game, outside olsen.

 

[NCCommish]

All this talk and no mention of Tavarres King... I've been grabbing him in the last round of all kind of drafts, hoping that he can approximate the Ted Ginn role from last year's panthers. He's the only receiver on that team with the deep threat skill set. I see Avant and Cotchery as filling the same old-WR2-but-more-effective-in-the-slot role, and Benjamin as the WR1 in training. That leaves King with an outside shot at WR2 duty going forward, if he shows something this year in camp/pre-season.

23 years old, 6'1' 191, former 5th round pick of the Broncos, had a pretty nice season in the SEC in 2012 with 42-950-9 (22 YPR!) including 5-142 against Alabama. Certainly a lotto-ticket, but a very cheap one with a clear opportunity.

Best post in the thread.

Lot of people got mentioned as flashing in mini-camp. King wasn't one of them. Underwood is the new Ginn so if all King has is deep speed that isn't going to get it done. And it should be remembered the Panthers targeted Underwood to bring on board specifically. Not to mention if Pilares were to return to form he has deep speed as well.

 

[Eminence]

The contents of my article don't suggest that you should hedge your bets 100% on Benjamin. There are 259 targets to go around and the assumption is that the majority will either go to the WR1 or the WR2. Somebody is likely to see 100+ targets and where all of these players are being drafted there is definitely value.

Plaxico Burress and Antonio Gates both weren't starters in their Rookie seasons, so it would have been impossible for them to produce stats.

From all the articles I've read, the Panthers seem intent on throwing this guy out there on all 2WR sets to start off the season. Considering that Newton throws the ball about 475+ a season, this offers value to whoever is playing in those 2WR sets. Greg Olsen himself sees about 100 targets per season, so that leaves 375 targets up for grabs. My bet is that a combination of Benjamin and Cotchery say up the majority of those targets and where both those players are being drafted, I can't afford NOT to have them on my team.

Steve Smith if anything hindered the passing game last year, the dude was a shell of his former self. I can't speak for Carolina's Offensive Line. I wouldn't even suggest that Benjamin is a 100% deep threat though, there's nothing wrong with sending a 245 lb behemoth over the middle and eating a nickel cornerback for lunch. He has the potential to become a high volume guy. If he was a Tight End, everyone would be gushing about he was the next Jimmy Graham / Jordan Cameron.

 

[karmarooster]

All this talk and no mention of Tavarres King... I've been grabbing him in the last round of all kind of drafts, hoping that he can approximate the Ted Ginn role from last year's panthers. He's the only receiver on that team with the deep threat skill set. I see Avant and Cotchery as filling the same old-WR2-but-more-effective-in-the-slot role, and Benjamin as the WR1 in training. That leaves King with an outside shot at WR2 duty going forward, if he shows something this year in camp/pre-season.

23 years old, 6'1' 191, former 5th round pick of the Broncos, had a pretty nice season in the SEC in 2012 with 42-950-9 (22 YPR!) including 5-142 against Alabama. Certainly a lotto-ticket, but a very cheap one with a clear opportunity.

Best post in the thread.

Lot of people got mentioned as flashing in mini-camp. King wasn't one of them. Underwood is the new Ginn so if all King has is deep speed that isn't going to get it done. And it should be remembered the Panthers targeted Underwood to bring on board specifically. Not to mention if Pilares were to return to form he has deep speed as well.

That's true, I haven't heard a peep about King, literally nothing. But as to Underwood, we know what he is at this point - King OTOH is still 23 and could have a higher ceiling. The Panthers also targeted King, in a sense, by signing him off the Broncos practice squad. The Broncos targeted King as well by drafting him in the 5th. And I have no idea who Pilares is.

Again, we're talking about a hail mary here, but I'd rather have King on my roster than Underwood.

 

[Eminence]

List of players being drafted around Benjamin:

Mike Evans
Hakeem Nicks
Dwayne Bowe
Tavon Austin
Cecil Shorts

Kelvin Benjamin

Danny Amendola
Anquan Boldin
Kenny Stills

Deandre Hopkins
Marvin Jones

 

[Noah Davis]

All this talk and no mention of Tavarres King... I've been grabbing him in the last round of all kind of drafts, hoping that he can approximate the Ted Ginn role from last year's panthers. He's the only receiver on that team with the deep threat skill set. I see Avant and Cotchery as filling the same old-WR2-but-more-effective-in-the-slot role, and Benjamin as the WR1 in training. That leaves King with an outside shot at WR2 duty going forward, if he shows something this year in camp/pre-season.

23 years old, 6'1' 191, former 5th round pick of the Broncos, had a pretty nice season in the SEC in 2012 with 42-950-9 (22 YPR!) including 5-142 against Alabama. Certainly a lotto-ticket, but a very cheap one with a clear opportunity.

Best post in the thread.

Lot of people got mentioned as flashing in mini-camp. King wasn't one of them. Underwood is the new Ginn so if all King has is deep speed that isn't going to get it done. And it should be remembered the Panthers targeted Underwood to bring on board specifically. Not to mention if Pilares were to return to form he has deep speed as well.

It was mentioned that King ran with the 1s, although that was very fluid. The one noticeable name that didn't was Underwood. The Broncos tried to keep King as both the Panthers and Packers were interested. Additionally Underwood did not do well on day 3 when a pass bounced off his hands for an interception. He's been released 8 times in 5 years....

I think the story is in on Underwood, but unknown on King...being that he could be your last pick in any draft I think he is a value. You should know within the 1st 2-3 weeks if you can drop him. Personally those are the type of flyer picks I like.

 

[fightingillini]

The contents of my article don't suggest that you should hedge your bets 100% on Benjamin. There are 259 targets to go around and the assumption is that the majority will either go to the WR1 or the WR2. Somebody is likely to see 100+ targets and where all of these players are being drafted there is definitely value.

Plaxico Burress and Antonio Gates both weren't starters in their Rookie seasons, so it would have been impossible for them to produce stats.

From all the articles I've read, the Panthers seem intent on throwing this guy out there on all 2WR sets to start off the season. Considering that Newton throws the ball about 475+ a season, this offers value to whoever is playing in those 2WR sets. Greg Olsen himself sees about 100 targets per season, so that leaves 375 targets up for grabs. My bet is that a combination of Benjamin and Cotchery say up the majority of those targets and where both those players are being drafted, I can't afford NOT to have them on my team.

Steve Smith if anything hindered the passing game last year, the dude was a shell of his former self. I can't speak for Carolina's Offensive Line. I wouldn't even suggest that Benjamin is a 100% deep threat though, there's nothing wrong with sending a 245 lb behemoth over the middle and eating a nickel cornerback for lunch. He has the potential to become a high volume guy. If he was a Tight End, everyone would be gushing about he was the next Jimmy Graham / Jordan Cameron.

You're assuming a bunch of things:

1) 259 targets will go to the new WRs......why not more to Olsen or the RBs....or maybe CAR will pass less this year?

2) that one of the WRs will get 100+ targets, which is about 40% of those targets.

3) that the WR that will get the 100+ targets is Benjamin. Why not Cotchery? Or Avant?

4) Even if all the above is true, that WR will likely only catch 60-65 passes. In fact, since Benjamin is a rookie, there will likely be a period where Newton and Benjamin aren't on the same page. Catching even 60% or so of his targets could be a tough task.

5) That CAR will throw it more in the redzone, giving Benjamin a chance to catch a decent amout of TDs to offset upside in receptions.

That's a lot of ifs.

I am not sharing your enthusiasm for Benjamin (or any of the CAR WRs). I can't see any of the CAR WRs breaking out and being the true WR1. It's going to be a true WRBC in CAR.

I will pass on any WR when their CEILING is about 65 receptions.

 

[fightingillini]

List of players being drafted around Benjamin:

Mike Evans

Hakeem Nicks

Dwayne Bowe

Tavon Austin

Cecil Shorts

Kelvin Benjamin

Danny Amendola

Anquan Boldin

Kenny Stills

Deandre Hopkins

Marvin Jones

I would take my chances with Shorts, Nicks, Bowe, Amendola or Stills over Benjamin. And possibly even Tavon Austin.

Shorts is going to be the WR1 in Jax.

Amendola and Stills play in high powered offenses with great QBs. Sure, Amendola is a big injury risk, but he's good when he's healthy.

Nicks is also a big injury risk, but a change of scenery may prove to be huge.....and Luck is a top notch QB.

Bowe doesn't possess a ton of upside, but he will likely get you 3-6 catches a game and probably score 6-8 TDs......decent value in the 10th round.

 

[Eminence]

List of players being drafted around Benjamin:

Mike Evans

Hakeem Nicks

Dwayne Bowe

Tavon Austin

Cecil Shorts

Kelvin Benjamin

Danny Amendola

Anquan Boldin

Kenny Stills

Deandre Hopkins

Marvin Jones

I would take my chances with Shorts, Nicks, Bowe, Amendola or Stills over Benjamin. And possibly even Tavon Austin.

Shorts is going to be the WR1 in Jax.

Amendola and Stills play in high powered offenses with great QBs. Sure, Amendola is a big injury risk, but he's good when he's healthy.

Nicks is also a big injury risk, but a change of scenery may prove to be huge.....and Luck is a top notch QB.

Bowe doesn't possess a ton of upside, but he will likely get you 3-6 catches a game and probably score 6-8 TDs......decent value in the 10th round.

Let's play in a league together.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

List of players being drafted around Benjamin:

Mike Evans

Hakeem Nicks

Dwayne Bowe

Tavon Austin

Cecil Shorts

Kelvin Benjamin

Danny Amendola

Anquan Boldin

Kenny Stills

Deandre Hopkins

Marvin Jones

Dang. Give me Jones all day in that grouping!

 

[Monsters of the Midway]

Some good points there. Extending a bit:

All of those guys I like have a higher floor than Benjamin, imo because they have succeeded on some level. Dobson's sample size is small though.

- I have the same level of faith in Bridgewater that you have in Benjamin, and I'm dubious of Patterson's ability to run a variety of routes (caught a lot of short dump off type passes last year), which is part of why I seem to be driving the Jennings is undervalued bus

- I think Jones' targets will increase which will offset the TD randomness. I like his skillset quite a bit.

- Hopkins is a play on talent and recency bias aka 2nd year receivers often fall by the wayside if they don't produce immediately. IIRC he did well initially before Houston imploded on itself.

Good discussion, you have me thinking over my options here which can only help on draft day

IMO it's about upside in the 10th round. I probably have most of my starters in place and I'm looking to hit home runs. Do you see any of these other guys with the potential to hit a higher ceiling? Honest question.

Ah, this is a good question. I'll start by saying that my leagues' unorthodox rules (12 teams, big starting lineups of 1/2/2/1/3 flex, 30-34 round draft, no free agents) make me more concerned about floor than most. But to your point ceiling is very important as those later gems who are easily startable are the ones who help you win your draft.

Thinking...I'd put Dobson's higher. Jones and Hopkins are probably similar imo, but I'd have to give the edge to Benjamin because of the potential to get the most targets on his team. I'm confident that Jennings will be better and startable-but I'm higher on him than most, and even with that the higher ceiling would go to Benjamin.

 

[NCCommish]

The contents of my article don't suggest that you should hedge your bets 100% on Benjamin. There are 259 targets to go around and the assumption is that the majority will either go to the WR1 or the WR2. Somebody is likely to see 100+ targets and where all of these players are being drafted there is definitely value.

Plaxico Burress and Antonio Gates both weren't starters in their Rookie seasons, so it would have been impossible for them to produce stats.

From all the articles I've read, the Panthers seem intent on throwing this guy out there on all 2WR sets to start off the season. Considering that Newton throws the ball about 475+ a season, this offers value to whoever is playing in those 2WR sets. Greg Olsen himself sees about 100 targets per season, so that leaves 375 targets up for grabs. My bet is that a combination of Benjamin and Cotchery say up the majority of those targets and where both those players are being drafted, I can't afford NOT to have them on my team.

Steve Smith if anything hindered the passing game last year, the dude was a shell of his former self. I can't speak for Carolina's Offensive Line. I wouldn't even suggest that Benjamin is a 100% deep threat though, there's nothing wrong with sending a 245 lb behemoth over the middle and eating a nickel cornerback for lunch. He has the potential to become a high volume guy. If he was a Tight End, everyone would be gushing about he was the next Jimmy Graham / Jordan Cameron.

You're assuming a bunch of things:

1) 259 targets will go to the new WRs......why not more to Olsen or the RBs....or maybe CAR will pass less this year?

2) that one of the WRs will get 100+ targets, which is about 40% of those targets.

3) that the WR that will get the 100+ targets is Benjamin. Why not Cotchery? Or Avant?

4) Even if all the above is true, that WR will likely only catch 60-65 passes. In fact, since Benjamin is a rookie, there will likely be a period where Newton and Benjamin aren't on the same page. Catching even 60% or so of his targets could be a tough task.

5) That CAR will throw it more in the redzone, giving Benjamin a chance to catch a decent amout of TDs to offset upside in receptions.

That's a lot of ifs.

I am not sharing your enthusiasm for Benjamin (or any of the CAR WRs). I can't see any of the CAR WRs breaking out and being the true WR1. It's going to be a true WRBC in CAR.

I will pass on any WR when their CEILING is about 65 receptions.

According to reports from camp they spent a lot of time working on throws to Benjamin in the end zone.

 

[RoosterScott]

I think this thread needs a restart especially with training camp opening.

WR: Kelvin Benjamin, Jerricho Cotchery, Jason Avant, Tiquan Underwood, Tavarres King, Kealoha Pilares, Marvin McNutt,Marcus Lucas, Toney Clemons, Corey Brown, Brenton Bersin

Does Cotchery and Avant have enough in the tank?

Did Underwood already knock himself down the charts with a poor OTA performance?

Do King and McNutt excel and which of the two have the better chance?

Bersin has been the local home town hero that I've heard about lately.

Benjamin is still a rookie playing the hardest position to transition to in the NFL beside offensive line and QB.

Get the ball rolling but look at it from a BROAD perspective and not a macro focus on one or two players. Get it rolling as it's wide open!

 

[Shutout]

Apparently there is no Carolina WR strategy because Steve SMith has been a one man show for a decade and now he's gone. This is a black hole.

 

[False Start]

Apparently there is no Carolina WR strategy because Steve SMith has been a one man show for a decade and now he's gone. This is a black hole.

I know what you mean, according to this thread this is what I learned...

Carolina will never throw a pass now that Steve Smith is gone and when they do it will only go to Olsen and Benjamin is a bust already based on his size alone.

 

[steveski]

I think the people saying there is no value in any Carolina WR's are completely wrong. But where is the value? I have no clue. Somebody should emerge though and it's worth taking a shot in the last round.

They want Benjamin to be that guy, but he's very raw as a WR and he's going to be receiving #1 coverage. It's tough for most rookies to produce and that's with guys more polished than Benjamin and receiving 2nd or 3rd guy type coverage. I could see him doing well in the redzone right away, but between the 20's I think he'll struggle for most the year.

Sorry that I can't make a prediction as to who is worthy, but I'll be following this closely in camp and in preseason because there is definitely value to be had here.

 

[ffgiant]

QB and WRs usu. need time to develop and work on their chemistry. For redraft league, I probably will stay away from Pathers WRs. The only safer bet is TE Olsen.

For dynasty, frankly I don't have a good read on Benjamin, it seems to me he is a risky pick with good upside.

 

[RoosterScott]

Bersin has good size (6-3, 210) and speed (he ran the 40 in 4.56 seconds at Wofford), but it’s his precise route-running that has earned him the trust of Proehl and quarterback Cam Newton.

Someone that intrigues me. I'm tired of wasting time on a suspended WR like Gordon and this kid is a great story.

 

[NCCommish]

Benjamin is your number 1 out of camp if he keep showing up once they get in pads. Cotchery is probably your number 2 out of camp. Avant is your number 3. Underwood better get it together, those drops were terrible. Philly Brown opened a lot of eyes in OTAs. Bersin keeps hanging around so he might sneak in.

 

[PhantomJB]

I think the people saying there is no value in any Carolina WR's are completely wrong. But where is the value? I have no clue. Somebody should emerge though and it's worth taking a shot in the last round.

They want Benjamin to be that guy, but he's very raw as a WR and he's going to be receiving #1 coverage. It's tough for most rookies to produce and that's with guys more polished than Benjamin and receiving 2nd or 3rd guy type coverage. I could see him doing well in the redzone right away, but between the 20's I think he'll struggle for most the year.

Sorry that I can't make a prediction as to who is worthy, but I'll be following this closely in camp and in preseason because there is definitely value to be had here.

No. The assertion that just because a No. 1 receiver emerges on a below avg passing team translates into FF value is what is completely wrong.

In 2013, the following guys "emerged" as their team's top receiver and had little to no FF value on a PPG basis (min 5 games).

J. Kerley (NYJ) WR65

D. Bowe (KC) WR59

S. Johnson (BUF) WR57

T. Austin (STL) WR55

R. Streater (OAK) WR44

S. Smith (CAR) WR43

C. Shorts (JAX) WR41

G. Tate (SEA) WR35

That's fully 25% of NFL teams with zero or marginal FF value at the WR position.

 

[Warhogs]

Anyone think this situation might be somewhat similar to New England last year? Tom Brady struggled early on with the WR changes but started to put things together later on in the season.

 

[brewer]

Tom Brady <> Cam Newton

 

[NCCommish]

Anyone think this situation might be somewhat similar to New England last year? Tom Brady struggled early on with the WR changes but started to put things together later on in the season.

Newton and the wideouts have been working together as much as possible. All the WRs and Cam held a 3 day practice last week at Proehl's facility. Cam was noted to have been tutoring the WRs on where they should be in the route and working with them on where they want the ball placed. I think they will be OK to start the season.

 

[steveski]

List of players being drafted around Benjamin:

Mike Evans

Hakeem Nicks

Dwayne Bowe

Tavon Austin

Cecil Shorts

Kelvin Benjamin

Danny Amendola

Anquan Boldin

Kenny Stills

Deandre Hopkins

Marvin Jones

Dang. Give me Jones all day in that grouping!

Jones is the definition of TD dependent. It's almost impossible to believe that someone who scored 10 TD's could finish outside the top 25 WRs. Even if his targets and receptions go up, do you expect them to counteract the most certain dip in TD's that he will have?

Almost 1/3 of his fantasy points over the year came in 1 game....

 

[steveski]

Anyone think this situation might be somewhat similar to New England last year? Tom Brady struggled early on with the WR changes but started to put things together later on in the season.

Newton and the wideouts have been working together as much as possible. All the WRs and Cam held a 3 day practice last week at Proehl's facility. Cam was noted to have been tutoring the WRs on where they should be in the route and working with them on where they want the ball placed. I think they will be OK to start the season.

Brady did the same last year and they were not OK to start the season.

 

[NCCommish]

Anyone think this situation might be somewhat similar to New England last year? Tom Brady struggled early on with the WR changes but started to put things together later on in the season.

Newton and the wideouts have been working together as much as possible. All the WRs and Cam held a 3 day practice last week at Proehl's facility. Cam was noted to have been tutoring the WRs on where they should be in the route and working with them on where they want the ball placed. I think they will be OK to start the season.

Brady did the same last year and they were not OK to start the season.

Brady had a bunch of rookies as I recall. Cam's main guys have years of experience. With the exception of Benjamin. And of course his number one receiver is still on the team as it is Olsen. So this isn't a great comparison to the Pats last season IMO.

 

[12punch]

Anyone think this situation might be somewhat similar to New England last year? Tom Brady struggled early on with the WR changes but started to put things together later on in the season.

except for the qb and o-line, nearly identical

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I realize there's not much there there, especially after Olsen, but it's fun to speculate.

If Benjamin is slow to start who could emerge?

I'd like to think someone like King could make some noise.

 

[12punch]

who was there last year?

 

[NCCommish]

who was there last year?

Other than Steve Smith a bunch of guys who everybody said the same things about that they are saying this year. Arguably this is overall a more talented group than last years.

I think it's funny that many of the same people who thought Ted Ginn sucked before last season played out now think he was this huge loss. Or LaFell for that matter.

 

[12punch]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

 

[NCCommish]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

 

[Whitney26]

The guy that has really caught my interest since they drafted him is Kealoha Pilares. Unfortunately, he's had scant opportunity, and injuries have held him back a bit. Even though he possesses elite physical metrics, he's really not suited for the outside though. With the few touches he has received on O, he's made some dynamic plays.....they've all been bubble screens if memory services. He was the primary KR two seasons ago, and will likely compete with Barner for the job this year since Ginn is gone. Joseph Person did say he stood out during OTA's. He's certainly a longshot, but I'm not going to be surprised if he sticks.

I've been surprised with Marvin McNutt's lack of success at the NFL level. He had a terrific college career at Iowa, and I expected him to make some noise on the big stage. I'm not sure what the problem is....he tested tell across the board. I know he's not that sudden and has had some issues separating. He just turned 25. Perhaps he can put it together.

 

[fightingillini]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

I live in Charlotte and see the reports that you see. It's great to see Benjamin working hard.

The problem I have is.....which WR has potential to catch 70+ passes and/or catch 8+ TDs? IMO, the answer is none of them. I believe that Benjamin, Cotchery and Avant will share the ball a lot this year, with all of them catching 40-60 passes. The CAR passing pie IMO isn't going to big enough, as I see them running the ball a lot, and Newton's 1st option will frequently be Olsen. Since I can't see myself starting any of the CAR WRs, so why bother drafting them? Especially Benjamin who is going way too high for my taste.

I never said that Benjamin isn't going to be good WR for CAR......I am just not going to bet on this year with an 8th-10th round pick.

 

[NCCommish]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

I live in Charlotte and see the reports that you see. It's great to see Benjamin working hard.

The problem I have is.....which WR has potential to catch 70+ passes and/or catch 8+ TDs? IMO, the answer is none of them. I believe that Benjamin, Cotchery and Avant will share the ball a lot this year, with all of them catching 40-60 passes. The CAR passing pie IMO isn't going to big enough, as I see them running the ball a lot, and Newton's 1st option will frequently be Olsen. Since I can't see myself starting any of the CAR WRs, so why bother drafting them? Especially Benjamin who is going way too high for my taste.

I never said that Benjamin isn't going to be good WR for CAR......I am just not going to bet on this year with an 8th-10th round pick.

70 catches in a season is slightly less than 5 a game. I think one WR will get at least 5 catches a game. I think Benjamin will get a lot of chances on 3rd and in the red zone. I don't think a TD in 8 games is out of the question but we;ll see. It may be the Cotchery gets the red zone heavy looks based on his performance last year. And yes Olsen will get targets but he won't catch 100 balls this season, so some wide out is going to catch some.

 

[fightingillini]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

I live in Charlotte and see the reports that you see. It's great to see Benjamin working hard.

The problem I have is.....which WR has potential to catch 70+ passes and/or catch 8+ TDs? IMO, the answer is none of them. I believe that Benjamin, Cotchery and Avant will share the ball a lot this year, with all of them catching 40-60 passes. The CAR passing pie IMO isn't going to big enough, as I see them running the ball a lot, and Newton's 1st option will frequently be Olsen. Since I can't see myself starting any of the CAR WRs, so why bother drafting them? Especially Benjamin who is going way too high for my taste.

I never said that Benjamin isn't going to be good WR for CAR......I am just not going to bet on this year with an 8th-10th round pick.

70 catches in a season is slightly less than 5 a game. I think one WR will get at least 5 catches a game. I think Benjamin will get a lot of chances on 3rd and in the red zone. I don't think a TD in 8 games is out of the question but we;ll see. It may be the Cotchery gets the red zone heavy looks based on his performance last year. And yes Olsen will get targets but he won't catch 100 balls this season, so some wide out is going to catch some.

So you think one WR will catch 80+ passes? You understand that no WR has caught 80 or more passes since Newton has been QB?

I have Newton only completing 280 passes this year, on 460 attempts. I have 60 receptions to the RBs and 70 rec to Olsen. Which leaves 150 receptions left between the backup TE and the WRs. 70 would be almost 1/2 of that. That isn't likely going to happen for one of the WRs to get 42% of the WR/backup TE receptions. Again, my view on CAR is that they are going to run the ball.... a lot. I have them rushing 500 times this year, a slight increase from 2013.

And your post illustrates my concern.....you don't know which WR has the chance at 70 rec. It's not like Cotchery hasn't done that in the past.....so you're essentially guessing which WR has the BEST chance at achieving the "upside" amount of receptions....which is 70 (actually it's less in my view).

Now if the preseason shows that Benjamin is going to be a red zone threat, then I can see taking him since 8+ TD receptions would help offset the low reception total. But I have Newton only throwing 22 TD passes. Newton has never thrown for more than 24 TDs in a year. I have 3 of those going to RBs and 6 going to Olsen. So 13 TDs spread between the WRs and backup TE. Since Newton has been QB, the highest WR TD reception total for a year is 7, by Steve Smith in 2011. So I can't see Benjamin getting the TDs necessary.

For Benjamin to have the upside necessary to warrant his draft position, then you have to think CAR is going to pass more than usual. All indications to me is that won't happen.

 

[NCCommish]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

I live in Charlotte and see the reports that you see. It's great to see Benjamin working hard.

The problem I have is.....which WR has potential to catch 70+ passes and/or catch 8+ TDs? IMO, the answer is none of them. I believe that Benjamin, Cotchery and Avant will share the ball a lot this year, with all of them catching 40-60 passes. The CAR passing pie IMO isn't going to big enough, as I see them running the ball a lot, and Newton's 1st option will frequently be Olsen. Since I can't see myself starting any of the CAR WRs, so why bother drafting them? Especially Benjamin who is going way too high for my taste.

I never said that Benjamin isn't going to be good WR for CAR......I am just not going to bet on this year with an 8th-10th round pick.

70 catches in a season is slightly less than 5 a game. I think one WR will get at least 5 catches a game. I think Benjamin will get a lot of chances on 3rd and in the red zone. I don't think a TD in 8 games is out of the question but we;ll see. It may be the Cotchery gets the red zone heavy looks based on his performance last year. And yes Olsen will get targets but he won't catch 100 balls this season, so some wide out is going to catch some.

So you think one WR will catch 80+ passes? You understand that no WR has caught 80 or more passes since Newton has been QB?

I have Newton only completing 280 passes this year, on 460 attempts. I have 60 receptions to the RBs and 70 rec to Olsen. Which leaves 150 receptions left between the backup TE and the WRs. 70 would be almost 1/2 of that. That isn't likely going to happen for one of the WRs to get 42% of the WR/backup TE receptions. Again, my view on CAR is that they are going to run the ball.... a lot. I have them rushing 500 times this year, a slight increase from 2013.

And your post illustrates my concern.....you don't know which WR has the chance at 70 rec. It's not like Cotchery hasn't done that in the past.....so you're essentially guessing which WR has the BEST chance at achieving the "upside" amount of receptions....which is 70 (actually it's less in my view).

Now if the preseason shows that Benjamin is going to be a red zone threat, then I can see taking him since 8+ TD receptions would help offset the low reception total. But I have Newton only throwing 22 TD passes. Newton has never thrown for more than 24 TDs in a year. I have 3 of those going to RBs and 6 going to Olsen. So 13 TDs spread between the WRs and backup TE. Since Newton has been QB, the highest WR TD reception total for a year is 7, by Steve Smith in 2011. So I can't see Benjamin getting the TDs necessary.

For Benjamin to have the upside necessary to warrant his draft position, then you have to think CAR is going to pass more than usual. All indications to me is that won't happen.

And again I think there are other things at play. They didn't bring in an offensive consultant to run the ball, Shula knows how to do that. Also this is arguably the best group of receivers Cam has had to work with. Which while perhaps not being a high bar is still very much worth noting. I do think Benjamin will get every opportunity to take on Smith's catches. I do think this team will throw about the same but be more productive due to the upgrade at the position. I saw receivers drop multiple catches last year that would have been nice gains and even touchdowns. I think there will be a lot less of that this year.

It should also be noted that the last time this team committed to two tight end sets Cam set the rookie passing record.

 

[ebsteelers]

Any thoughts on Tavares (spelling) King?

I feel like I heard good things in March about him but nothing since

 

[fightingillini]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

I live in Charlotte and see the reports that you see. It's great to see Benjamin working hard.

The problem I have is.....which WR has potential to catch 70+ passes and/or catch 8+ TDs? IMO, the answer is none of them. I believe that Benjamin, Cotchery and Avant will share the ball a lot this year, with all of them catching 40-60 passes. The CAR passing pie IMO isn't going to big enough, as I see them running the ball a lot, and Newton's 1st option will frequently be Olsen. Since I can't see myself starting any of the CAR WRs, so why bother drafting them? Especially Benjamin who is going way too high for my taste.

I never said that Benjamin isn't going to be good WR for CAR......I am just not going to bet on this year with an 8th-10th round pick.

70 catches in a season is slightly less than 5 a game. I think one WR will get at least 5 catches a game. I think Benjamin will get a lot of chances on 3rd and in the red zone. I don't think a TD in 8 games is out of the question but we;ll see. It may be the Cotchery gets the red zone heavy looks based on his performance last year. And yes Olsen will get targets but he won't catch 100 balls this season, so some wide out is going to catch some.

So you think one WR will catch 80+ passes? You understand that no WR has caught 80 or more passes since Newton has been QB?

I have Newton only completing 280 passes this year, on 460 attempts. I have 60 receptions to the RBs and 70 rec to Olsen. Which leaves 150 receptions left between the backup TE and the WRs. 70 would be almost 1/2 of that. That isn't likely going to happen for one of the WRs to get 42% of the WR/backup TE receptions. Again, my view on CAR is that they are going to run the ball.... a lot. I have them rushing 500 times this year, a slight increase from 2013.

And your post illustrates my concern.....you don't know which WR has the chance at 70 rec. It's not like Cotchery hasn't done that in the past.....so you're essentially guessing which WR has the BEST chance at achieving the "upside" amount of receptions....which is 70 (actually it's less in my view).

Now if the preseason shows that Benjamin is going to be a red zone threat, then I can see taking him since 8+ TD receptions would help offset the low reception total. But I have Newton only throwing 22 TD passes. Newton has never thrown for more than 24 TDs in a year. I have 3 of those going to RBs and 6 going to Olsen. So 13 TDs spread between the WRs and backup TE. Since Newton has been QB, the highest WR TD reception total for a year is 7, by Steve Smith in 2011. So I can't see Benjamin getting the TDs necessary.

For Benjamin to have the upside necessary to warrant his draft position, then you have to think CAR is going to pass more than usual. All indications to me is that won't happen.

And again I think there are other things at play. They didn't bring in an offensive consultant to run the ball, Shula knows how to do that. Also this is arguably the best group of receivers Cam has had to work with. Which while perhaps not being a high bar is still very much worth noting. I do think Benjamin will get every opportunity to take on Smith's catches. I do think this team will throw about the same but be more productive due to the upgrade at the position. I saw receivers drop multiple catches last year that would have been nice gains and even touchdowns. I think there will be a lot less of that this year.

It should also be noted that the last time this team committed to two tight end sets Cam set the rookie passing record.

I hear you, but I look at the term "group" of receivers. I have never said that the WRs are terrible....they just lack a true #1, unless Benjamin can step in to that role right away.....and I am skeptical of that for this year.

So my stance is that the pie is going to be spread around fairly evenly to Benjamin, Avant and Cotchery. Each will likely catch 40-60 passes, which is good for CAR, but not good for fantasy.

 

[NCCommish]

It seems Bersin was the young receiver that won practice last night. Benjamin made a nice snag on a slightly off throw and hooked up with Cam on a long sideline pass. Cotchery and Avant had some catches but Cotchery did let one go through his hands. Underwood is apparently recovering from an injury. Philly Brown, Pilares and Underwood tried their hands at returns.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Kind of pulling for Bersin here.

Does he have a legit shot to start?

Wofford 22, Clemson 21 after half.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6953107

 

[NCCommish]

Kind of pulling for Bersin here.

Does he have a legit shot to start?

Wofford 22, Clemson 21 after half.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6953107

Yeah it's starting to like look Bersin has a real shot. Probably be a slot guy. Has good hands, blocks well, and has decent speed. If he can learn some things from Avant and Proehl he could be there a long time.

 

[FDC]

Kind of pulling for Bersin here.

Does he have a legit shot to start?

Wofford 22, Clemson 21 after half.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6953107

Start this year?

Not with a healthy Cotchery. Car should be in a lot of 2 TE sets.

Bersin is a good story and just might end up having a ton of real life value... but his FF ceiling doesn't get much lower.

 

[pantherclub]

lol that's a good point

and I think smiff was WR4 in my scoring last year

Someone is going to catch passes in this group. I think people who are calling Benjamin the bust of the draft are going to look silly by years end. This kid is working his butt off according to all reports. He wants to show up big and he is putting in the work to do so. Cotchery and Avant are both solid veteran receivers. Both of them are better than Lafell. And I would keep an eye on Philly Brown. Coaches seem to love him and were surprised by his onfield speed. He caught a lot of balls and did some solid route running.

For a fantasy perspective I think Avant is the wr you want out of this group. I agree about Benjamin but its tough for a rookie wr to make too much fantasy noise

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

gross retiring leaves that o-line as a dumpster fire, particularly at the tackles, and you're talking about a team whose star receiver put up 64/745/4 last year with gross on over 100 targets, albeit at a slightly different altitude.

I think it's possible cam's completion % drops 5%, I think it's possible they throw a bit less, including a few more plays where he pulls the ball down and scrambles, I think cotchery and olsen might soak up a few extra targets, and I think the rb position might get targeted an extra 30x

if benjamin's game is downfield, exactly how long do you think cam's going to have to drop back and throw the ball this year?

from pff

• Newton led the league with 223 deep drops and he fared well at +7.4.

do you think this will change any without gross?

he also took 23 sacks on those drops and scrambled 24x --- both are also league leaders.

also from pff

In 2013, Newton scrambled when not under pressure just 3.8% of the time. When he was under pressure, he ended up scrambling 13.2%

The Panthers lost Jordan Gross and Travelle Wharton this past offseason. They had a combined PFF Pass Block rating of +26.6 last year while the rest of the offensive line had an overall rating of -13.8. Replacing Gross at left tackle is Nate Chandler.

.........a Carolina line that ranked as the sixth worst pass-blocking unit in 2013 [and that's with wharton and gross -- my note]

nate chandler is a 2012 udfa defensive lineman who converted to RG last year.

their other option is to move their terrible RT over and plug chandler in over on that side..

jordan gross was in the pro bowl last year, for whatever that's worth

I'm not saying this dude can't do well, but I'm skeptical of any rookie wr, particularly one with limited play, and I'm skeptical of the carolina passing game, outside olsen.

gross retiring leaves that o-line as a dumpster fire, particularly at the tackles, and you're talking about a team whose star receiver put up 64/745/4 last year with gross on over 100 targets, albeit at a slightly different altitude.

I think it's possible cam's completion % drops 5%, I think it's possible they throw a bit less, including a few more plays where he pulls the ball down and scrambles, I think cotchery and olsen might soak up a few extra targets, and I think the rb position might get targeted an extra 30x

if benjamin's game is downfield, exactly how long do you think cam's going to have to drop back and throw the ball this year?

from pff

• Newton led the league with 223 deep drops and he fared well at +7.4.

do you think this will change any without gross?

he also took 23 sacks on those drops and scrambled 24x --- both are also league leaders.

also from pff

In 2013, Newton scrambled when not under pressure just 3.8% of the time. When he was under pressure, he ended up scrambling 13.2%

The Panthers lost Jordan Gross and Travelle Wharton this past offseason. They had a combined PFF Pass Block rating of +26.6 last year while the rest of the offensive line had an overall rating of -13.8. Replacing Gross at left tackle is Nate Chandler.

.........a Carolina line that ranked as the sixth worst pass-blocking unit in 2013 [and that's with wharton and gross -- my note]

nate chandler is a 2012 udfa defensive lineman who converted to RG last year.

their other option is to move their terrible RT over and plug chandler in over on that side..

jordan gross was in the pro bowl last year, for whatever that's worth

I'm not saying this dude can't do well, but I'm skeptical of any rookie wr, particularly one with limited play, and I'm skeptical of the carolina passing game, outside olsen.

 

[Eminence]

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

yeah, that benjamin call was , but cam's protection is exactly the dumpster fire it looked to be going into the season.