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Cams issues-himself or Shulas (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rjv
- Start date
Sweet Love
IBL Representative
Didn't look the same last year as his rookie year. I am sure some of this has to do with the scheme, talent around him, etc., but these spread QBs are beginning to struggle a bit, and I think it has to do with opponents being more prepared than them "losing something".
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Shula = garbage
this year is a wash for Cam i expect Riveria and Shula to be shown the door
Maybe they will finally get him some talent to work with too
this year is a wash for Cam i expect Riveria and Shula to be shown the door
Maybe they will finally get him some talent to work with too
meanjoegreen
Footballguy
There are things Cam can improve on, but I think the main issue is with how the OC uses him. Shula isn't using Cam's strengths to run the offense.
The Commish
Footballguy
Both....Cam's inconsistent. There's no question about that. It doesn't help that Shula will call a series that utilizes his talents perfectly then go three series putting him in positions that require abilities he doesn't have. It's brutal to watch, but it's short sighted to put it on one or the other. It doesn't help that the WRs drop balls that could be caught by a blind man. That's part of it too. The team lacks discipline for sure.
meanjoegreen
Footballguy
I think there is a very good chance there will be a new staff next season.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Rivera is a horrible head coach, worst in the NFL imo. Even worser than Schiano. Rivera's OC Shula is his perfect crap complement. The equivalent of 3/8 offsuit hold cards in poker. Cam never had a chance with these clowns running the show. I tried very hard to pass on all Panthers, but suckered myself into taking Deangelo in one draft late. Cam will be a much better QB all of a sudden when Rivera/Shula are fired.
shady inc
Footballguy
Khy
Footballguy
I disagree. From a football perspective (not fantasy) Cam has regressed steadily since coming into the league. Cam has really never been that good of a passer. He came into the league like a man possessed. In his first 8 games he posted numbers of:
174/287 60.62% 2393 yards 8.33ypa 11 TDs 9 INTs
The following 8 games he saw massive decreases in almost every single stat line:
135/230 58.69% 1658 yards 7.20ypa 10 TDs 8 INTs
He had less TDs, more INTs and less YPA and more importantly a 2% drop off in completion percentage.
In 2012 he posted stats of 57.73% completion percentage (another 1% drop off) and only 19 TDs to go with 12 INTs and a slightly more stable 7.65ypa.
So far in 2013 he's posting at 57.48% completion percentage (this seems to be his real norm) and a 6/5 TD:INT ratio to go with a awful 6.97ypa.
As a pure passer, Cam has regressed every single day since his first 8 games. People keep drafting him high in fantasy and having these wild aspirations of Weeks 1-8 2011 Cam. But I see no reason for that to come back to form. He set the world on fire in those first 8 weeks of 2011 and since then has been extremely inconsistent as a passer regardless of the system. He makes his fantasy points using his legs, which have also not been as good since those first 8 games. Lets face facts here, Cam Newton isn't that good of a QB. He has never been a natural passer and likely never will be. Stop chasing 2011 again, it's not coming back.
lod01
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I have watched him his whole career..what exactly are his strengths? I see a QB with a strong inconsistant arm... who stil gets confused by defenses on a regular basis. I do agree that NFL defenses seemd to be adapting more to the spread and read so that may hurt Newton.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Cam isn't regressing anywhere but on the stat sheet. His offensive unit has never been as good as it was in 2011. He needs to make strides, and I agree: as and NFL QB, he's not very good yet. But he's not getting worse.
As a fantasy option - the running production isn't there and likely won't be this year. The staff might need to go for that to change; that or they need to open it up more.
The good news is that he is making strides in the maturity department. Hope that continues.
Unlike last year - I don't see his value rebounding this year, unless major changes are made. As a dynasty prospect, his value is clearly down, but it's time to buy.
Khy
Footballguy
I mean, maybe I'm seeing things a little clearer as I was never that high on Cam to begin with. When he was drafted #1 overall, I probably laughed for about 3-5 minutes as I saw the next JaMarcus Russell in the making. After about Week 3 or 4 of his rookie season, I took an honest step back and admitted I was clearly wrong. While Cam wasn't a pure pocket passer by any stretch of the imagination he clearly had something special about him. After about Week 14 I started to see the things in Cam's game that made me initially question him coming out of school. Going into 2012 I avoided drafting him in every league I was in as people were taking him as the #2 or 3 QB off the board. That seemed like a good move to me by seasons end. Again people did that this season, he went no later than the #5 QB in every league I'm in this season and it simply blew my mind. I couldn't believe it.
You'll never see anything even close to his 2011 numbers to be honest. He has EXTREME maturity issues, which seem to at least be mildly improving this season. But he's going to need a rather amazing team built around him to have real value and right now I don't see that happening. He was considered by many to be the #2 or 3 overall dynasty QB coming into the year, I had him closer to #6 or 7. Behind Rodgers, RG3, Luck, Wilson and Matt Ryan as a minimum. That's still about where I have him right now. We've seen players like him in the past (Michael Vick) who had one or two great years but faded away to mediocrity. Because while having that second lethal aspect to your game in running is a big deal, having a bad arm is even bigger. Luck, RG3, Rodgers, Wilson are all better pure passers than Newton will ever be and they both pose a large threat running the ball.
That said! I do think while the read option isn't 'dying' per se. It is regressing. Teams are selling out to stop these QBs from running... which is good, hell GREAT for their RBs but bad for them. Watching the Redskins play so far this season, every time they go for the option the LB doesn't bite on the RB he stays the course to stop RG3 from running. Same can be said for Luck and Kaep. Teams will continue to do this which will bring all these young QBs stats down to a more reasonable level. That said, it's bringing the 'real talent' to the front of the line.
Griffin I think will be fine, I expect good things from him coming out of the bye more healthy with more practice under his belt. He's clearly been a little tentative and been working some rust off. He didn't put up the stats we'd have liked to see against Oakland but he did look a lot better in his throwing motion and mechanics. Which is what we want to see from him.
Luck has looked great, although his ceiling is capped with Pep as they want more of a power rushing attack.
Wilson has also looked good, same as Luck. His ceiling is capped because of the running game focus.
Kaepernick, much like Cam is someone I never was buying into. I never watched him and thought "Man, even if they take away this kids legs he's still one hell of a pocket passer" like I think when I was Griffin, Luck or Wilson.
The Commish
Footballguy
Cam's at his best when he's running the ball and out of the pocket creating. He's never going to be a pocket passer and somehow folks (not you specifically) manage to push off on him their assumptions that he was going to continue through his career what he did the first year he was in the league. Somehow it's his fault he didn't keep defying all odds and came back to earth. He's an athlete playing QB, not an athletic QB, yet folks continue to expect from him stat lines of the latter and then scoff at him when he puts up stats of the former. It's quite the spectacle to watch.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
No. We haven't. Let's not rewrite history. Newton had the best fantasy season ever for a rookie, and followed it up with another top 5 effort - #1 scoring QB over the last 8 weeks. His team was winning games during that span, too. Over his first two years in the league, 2 players had more rushing TDs than him. He finished the season on an elite pace.
Funny you claim you couldn't believe he went top 5. He's NEVER finished outside of the top 5. You might as well have laughed at those that took Brady or Aaron Rodgers top 5.
habsfan
Footballguy
This is true but it's also a polite way of saying "backyard football". He has the physical tools to extend a play until it completely breaks down and then make something happen. It's entertaining and fantasy friendly but obviously no one will run an NFL offense by drawing up plays in the dirt...
Evil G
Footballguy
In the simplest terms, they won't let Cam do what Cam does well.
They appear to want him to stand in the pocket and throw to receivers that are sub-par.
I think Cam could use:
They appear to want him to stand in the pocket and throw to receivers that are sub-par.
I think Cam could use:
- a legitimate WR threat added to the arsenal
- some freedom to run around and create, breaking down the defense
- more inspiration in the play calling
- Jonathan Stewart back and healthy
JustinHawkins
Footballguy
Good post Cam did look good at the start of that game yesterday, outside of all the drops by his WRs of course...
Concept Coop
Footballguy
As far as FF goes: Cam's problem is that he has fewer rushing yards than Alex Smith, and fewer rushing TDs than Christian Ponder.
The Commish
Footballguy
No...I'm saying he's good running the football and creating out of the pocket. If zone read and designed runs are "backyard football" then ok...but i've never heard that. Again...he's an athlete playing the QB position. He's not going to be a pocket passer ever, much less a surgeon ala Brady, Manning, Brees etc. Just like they are never going to stress offenses with their legs. The QB position is changing in the NFL whether folks want to accept it or not. If the 2014 class of QBs doesn't convince us of this, nothing will and people will continue to hold QBs to the standard established 50 years ago. They'll just look foolish doing it.
The thing is though, he is a great deep passer but a bad short passer. And even that is not that simple either.
When he tries to take something off of the throw to make a ball catchable it is often inaccurate. When he throws rocket balls they are just hard to catch no matter the depth because they are so fast (the short rocket balls are obviously harder to catch than long ones though). He just doesn't have great touch.
Because of this problem the offense has gone to a long developing passing game plan. Arizona countered that with the blitz and it worked. Car's right side of the oline will also allow pressure pretty consistently.
This is partly why Cam's running is so essential. Planned runs make coordinators hesitate to blitz and also creates short down play action type opportunities.
When you have a game like Arizona that has no running game whatsoever and basically no designed Cam runs this is what we get.
I totally agree.. but the difference between you and I.(Panthers Fan.. have had Cam all 3 years)... is I believe his issues can be corrected with the right coaching staff, and the right play calling...imagine if his coach was someone like "Mike Tomlin" or "Bill Cowher"... somebody that he would be afraid to throw an Interception because they might kick his ### or even bench him... Rivera has the same emotion as Bellichek, but from far the genius...
a lot of his play can be attributed to the play calling IMO.. it is so predictable, and just out right dumb and has been for 4 out of the last 5 years for the panthers.. and 2 out of Cam's 3.. besides Cam's rookie year where they really took advantage of his skill set... if we had an offensive coordinator like Kyle Shannahan turned head coach next year...I could see that really benefiting Cam
the other problem is of course missing Jonathan Stewart, which people do not understand the magnitude of how much this affects Cam's poor play... he is the perfect "X" to Cam's "O"... he makes the running game in Carolina much more dynamic, and Cam relies a lot on him for check downs when he is under pressure, and gives him that reliable 3rd option that isn't going to drop passes.. and quite frankly saved Cam quite a bit earlier on in his career... you than add in DeAngelo Williams who is a great change of pace back, and always has been.. to throw the defenses off for a big run combined with Cam running the ball more often and you have a really difficult offense to stop...
right now.. they are too one dimensional and Shula is a moron who thinks Cam is going to be a great pocket passer... he will never be unless he gets a more disciplined coach who can get him to correct his footwork, and teach him to throw the ball away more often.. or hell even use his legs??
right now.. the way things are going.. I would completely stay away from anyone on this team besides Smitty, or Deangelo as a bye week filler (I am rolling with Phillip Rivers, Terrele Pryor, and occasionally Cam based on match-ups from here on out.. IMO he is no where near match-up proof as we all have seen this season.. unless the Panthers open the flood gates and say verbatim "Cam is going to be running the ball a whole hell of a lot more" i am only using him worst case scenario.. he isn't going to cost me another season like last year.. they are atrocious on offense.. which is sad because they have been completely atrocious on defense for most of the last 4 years until this year finally...
Panthers fan out... hah
definitely agree
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Grimace59
Footballguy
Sorry more of a Rumor, but remember reading it some where. Posted on Fanation.com. I guess the Bolded was what I added in me head after trying to remember what was written.
Panthers already looking for Ron Rivera's replacement
Views 1150 Comments 7
05:48 PM ET 10.06 | The Carolina Panthers are already preparing for a coaching change this offseason if the team does not make winning a habit. According to reports, the team has already begun searching for a replacement for head coach Ron Rivera. The perennial underachiever has consistently found ways to lose close games and that has caused his time with the Cardiac Cats to be placed on life support.
FanSided.com
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stratocatter
Footballguy
He doesn't step into his throws, so his groove is not reliably repeatable. And totally agree with the opinion that he has no touch on the ball. His short throws are full of adventure. I don't see how different play calling/design would help him with that.
The WR talent is a matter for the GM more than the coaching staff, IMO.
The WR talent is a matter for the GM more than the coaching staff, IMO.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
I'll be buying low again. Repeat of last year.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Unless he's running for 50+ yds w/ a rushing TD each week... he's nothing special.rjv said:
There were a handful of free agent QB's in my 16-team league out-performing him. I would think that 10-team leagues (or less) he's bench material.
Doesn't really matter if it's; Cam, staff, supporting cast, scheme... enough football has been played and nothing is changing soon. Cut bait or stash him and hope.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Raiderfan32904 said:
I enjoy both of your posts.MAC_32 said:
Ying&Yang
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'm not going to pick the coaching argument. It's pretty bad. Rivera is a case of the Peter Principle, Shula is terrible. They'd fail regardless of who they are working with. In these roles anyway.
But any Cam defenders citing the supporting cast, stop it. Good QB's make the guys around him better, good athletes playing QB do not.
Coaching will rightfully fall on the sword this year, it'll buy sCam more time. It's going to take another 3+ years for the coach killer narrative to be written. It'll be a fun sequel to Michael Vick, unlike most lame sequels the plot line isn't the same, conclusions are going to bring it all together though.
But any Cam defenders citing the supporting cast, stop it. Good QB's make the guys around him better, good athletes playing QB do not.
Coaching will rightfully fall on the sword this year, it'll buy sCam more time. It's going to take another 3+ years for the coach killer narrative to be written. It'll be a fun sequel to Michael Vick, unlike most lame sequels the plot line isn't the same, conclusions are going to bring it all together though.
Khy
Footballguy
I'll agree with this... I'll give Cam another year or two before I consider him a "NFL Bust" not so much fantasy bust. Even Tim Tebow was a Top 10 fantasy QB. But by actual NFL standards, Cam isn't that great of a QB. A few talent scouts have already said that if the draft were today with him and Pryor in the same class they'd all take Pryor over Cam. As Pryor has similar athletic upside but Pryor has a better natural throwing motion than Cam. Which is something that really can't be taught at the NFL level.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Steve Smith dropped an easy TD and LaFell dropped a crucial pass inside the redzone that was put right in his chest.
Cam is having some issues, but his receivers are awful and dropping easy catches.
If Smith and Lafell catch those couple gimmes the game could have turned out a lot different.
Cam is having some issues, but his receivers are awful and dropping easy catches.
If Smith and Lafell catch those couple gimmes the game could have turned out a lot different.
Yenrub
Footballguy
I agree to a certain extent but have you seen the passes that LaFell drops?
Yesterday on a 4th down play Cam hits the guy in the gut for what would have been a 1st down and potentially would have led to at least a FG attempt…LaFell drops it
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
I have only had the chance to watch most of the Giants game and the game yesterday - they kinda looked like night and day.
Against the Giants he was able to run some and it really seemed to help - obviously we have more incentive to cheer for the running than Shula considering the fantasy implications, but even out on the real field it seems pretty clear it is a big part of his game.
Yesterday he looked like they really tried to force him to be a regular pocket passer and the combination of poor O line play, some bad throws, and not particularly good weapons made for a terrible combination.
Very square peg in a round hole - they are not utilizing his strengths and don't have the personnel to do what they are trying to do either. Seemed like the previous regime did a nice job of playing to his strengths.
Against the Giants he was able to run some and it really seemed to help - obviously we have more incentive to cheer for the running than Shula considering the fantasy implications, but even out on the real field it seems pretty clear it is a big part of his game.
Yesterday he looked like they really tried to force him to be a regular pocket passer and the combination of poor O line play, some bad throws, and not particularly good weapons made for a terrible combination.
Very square peg in a round hole - they are not utilizing his strengths and don't have the personnel to do what they are trying to do either. Seemed like the previous regime did a nice job of playing to his strengths.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The more I watch football the more I am amazed at how often we remember poor QB's having their passes dropped while we remember the good ones having their passes caught. Yet, I'll bet the drop numbers QB to QB aren't all that different. Don't have the numbers behind it, doubt they're even out there as I don't think drop numbers began to be tracked until; recently, just an observation, but it's causing me to buy less and less into the dropped passes defense. Every team has to deal with dropped passes, how do you as a QB respond? The good ones make plays to make up for them, lesser ones? Not so much.
The Commish
Footballguy
I can't help but laugh at crap like this when pro bowlers like Steve Smith dropped more balls right in his hands than he caught. To an extent the mantra holds true in that they push the players around them to be better, get on them etc, but when it's brought up in the physical sense, it cracks me up. It's like you believe that if it were Peyton Manning throwing the exact same ball the WR would somehow catch it simply because it was Peyton Manning
The Commish
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
What will be your excuse for him next year?I can't help but laugh at crap like this when pro bowlers like Steve Smith dropped more balls right in his hands than he caught. To an extent the mantra holds true in that they push the players around them to be better, get on them etc, but when it's brought up in the physical sense, it cracks me up. It's like you believe that if it were Peyton Manning throwing the exact same ball the WR would somehow catch it simply because it was Peyton Manning
yea yea.. but those were well thrown balls in key situations that would have not only potentially changed the way the game went, but also would have potentially done a lot for Cam's fantasy day as well as both were redzone drops.... I agree more than anyone that Cam lacks consistency, and has no touch on his passes... but the coaching staff and supporting staff are far from helpful when Cam was playing well.. which was the majority of the first half when he looked sharp
more than anything I am concerned about Cam's ability to play well under pressure when the game is on the line.. he has a track record of throwing interceptions, and turning the ball over in key situations... i am not sure how much coaching can fix that one
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
So, Cam has all the physical tools you can ask for, but:
1. no consistent running game
2. an injured and sub-par offensive line
3. a #2 WR serving as his #1 WR
4. a #4 WR serving as his #2 WR
5. a glorified kick returner serving as his #3 WR
6. a good but not great TE
7. and an offensive coordinator that refuses to gear the offense to what he does well
And people wonder why his play is inconsistent with flashes of greatness and plenty of mistakes?
Instead of crunching numbers all the time, people should spend more time watching him and paying attention. He shows touch on lots of throws SOMETIMES, but the way plays are called, he almost never gets into a rhythm and he basically doesn't have a single reliable option he can count on. If the Panthers are playing a team with a shutdown corner, his primary targets become Brandon LaFell, Greg Olsen, and Tedd Ginn without the support of a running game.
1. no consistent running game
2. an injured and sub-par offensive line
3. a #2 WR serving as his #1 WR
4. a #4 WR serving as his #2 WR
5. a glorified kick returner serving as his #3 WR
6. a good but not great TE
7. and an offensive coordinator that refuses to gear the offense to what he does well
And people wonder why his play is inconsistent with flashes of greatness and plenty of mistakes?
Instead of crunching numbers all the time, people should spend more time watching him and paying attention. He shows touch on lots of throws SOMETIMES, but the way plays are called, he almost never gets into a rhythm and he basically doesn't have a single reliable option he can count on. If the Panthers are playing a team with a shutdown corner, his primary targets become Brandon LaFell, Greg Olsen, and Tedd Ginn without the support of a running game.
It seems like, in a lot of cases, it is the play-callers giving up on these plays. If you have a running quarterback then you need to get him moving around to be effective. You need to make the secondary wonder if he is going to tuck and run. If you play to his weakness then you can't be surprised by poor results. I feel like the 49ers, Redskins, and Panthers have all done that to some degree this year.Da Guru said:
It is particularly frustating watching this happen to Cam who is such a tank physically. Cam is much better at the passing and metnal parts of the game than I expected coming out of college. That would show up in the win and stat columns if he still was able to showcase his unique skills to improvise out of the pocket.
The Panthers have gotten worse on offense each year he has been in the league. They haven't been able to find a WR to step up for the aging Smith while the OL and RBs are older and banged up.
Rivera is not a NFL head coach. I struggle to see how Shula has a job anywhere. They will be fired soon and I would bet Cam does better...
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