Cam Bailing on that Fumble... (1 Viewer)

[Hawkeye21]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

They didn't become a 6 point Super bowl favorite because of having more talent than Denver--they became a favorite because they were a hot team that was on a roll going through the playoffs. Point spreads are not determined by "talent"--they are determined by who is playing better--match ups--and trends in betting. The game started at Carolina being a 3.5-4pt favorite and the betting public pumped it up to 6--the talent didn't bump it up to 6.Cam deserved to win the MVP this season because nobody expected that team to go 15-1 in the regular season (especially considering the Benjamin injury before the season started). Cam played a major part in that--and Rivera did a great job coaching. The difference between the NFL and let's say the NBA/MLB is that once the playoffs start--it's a one game win or go home. As great a regular season that Cam head--the problem is that he didn't play the Super bowl with the mind set that this was the ultimate win or go home. Denver punched him in the face early and it basically drained the emotion right out of him. He was running the ball successfully in the first half--and when JStew got hurt and wasn't the same player--and the team needed a running game more desperately than ever--he basically abandoned his legs and his team. With his teams Super bowl chances bouncing around in front of him--he hesitated instead of going all out. The thing is that for Carolina to have won--Cam needed to have at least a good game--or possibly a great game--and he didn't do that. His own mistakes created 14 pts for the opposition (the front side sack fumble in the 1st quarter, and him not diving on the ball in the 4th)--and his team lost by 14pts. In any case--Cam had a flat game in a very flat Super bowl. He's still a great player and a great talent. He's a deserving MVP. He just happened to have a really bad moment on the worst possible stage.

Finally! Someone gets it. The Super Bowl proved that Cam didn't have much around him. Once you stop Cam you see that the Panthers had no one else to carry that offense. They were a very one dimensional team that couldn't do much without Cam making plays. This was major proof as to why Cam deserved the MVP, without him the offense was crap and the defense was the only reason the game was close.

 

[Soulfly3]

Finally! Someone gets it. The Super Bowl proved that Cam didn't have much around him. Once you stop Cam you see that the Panthers had no one else to carry that offense. They were a very one dimensional team that couldn't do much without Cam making plays. This was major proof as to why Cam deserved the MVP, without him the offense was crap and the defense was the only reason the game was close.

Who did Denver have that did anything on offense? They were piss poor all season. DT was a joke, guy is basically retired now.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Finally! Someone gets it. The Super Bowl proved that Cam didn't have much around him. Once you stop Cam you see that the Panthers had no one else to carry that offense. They were a very one dimensional team that couldn't do much without Cam making plays. This was major proof as to why Cam deserved the MVP, without him the offense was crap and the defense was the only reason the game was close.

Who did Denver have that did anything on offense? They were piss poor all season. DT was a joke, guy is basically retired now.

What does this have to do with what I've been talking about? The Denver defense won the game.

 

[Sabertooth]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

 

[Neofight]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that came looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

Why do you keep using Cam? I'm talking about Cam being good because he performed well with less talent than most teams. I fell like I'm banging my head against the wall because you don't understand what I'm talking about. You insist on trying to convince me that the WRs are great and that they would be a WR1 on any other team. Who cares where these players were drafted? I'm talking about skills compared to their peers. How good are these players really? They are all considered average WRs and Cam had an MVP season despite them. This is the point, not what freaking round they were drafted in. What is so hard to comprehend?

I would say Russell Wilson did something very similar. He had an amazing second half of the season throwing the ball to WRs that most people would consider average. He didn't even have Graham.

See bolded. If you're banging your head against the wall, perhaps it's because you have some of the same issues you accuse others of?

Jesus man. Cam is the focal point of my discussion. I am talking about the talent surrounding Cam, not Cam himself. I am not talking about the team as a whole and I'm not talking about the defense. I am talking about the quality of talent on the offense that Cam has to work with. It is not as good as what you would expect a 15-1 team to have.

Go back in history and show me teams that went 15-1 that you believe had less talent on their offense than the Panthers this year. Did you truly believe that the talent surrounding Cam on offense was good enough to produce the season it did? I can't imagine anyone thought it would.

As am I. Not certain why you can't discern that.

What good would a comparison across generations do? Would you adjust for rule changes, length of schedule, factor in strength of schedule, etc.? All we're really talking about here, and I'll quote you so you can see we're on the same page, is "the quality of talent on the offense that Cam has to work with", right?

Well, according to the people who vote on the leagues highest positional ranking honors, the All Pro designation, it's quite good. That's for this season, relative to players that played in this season. The most thorough paid ranking outfit, that uses actual NFL talent evaluators to help rank positional players, ranks the Carolina offensive line as the 2nd best in football. That's for this season.

 

[FUBAR]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

 

[Hawkeye21]

The whole point I have been trying to make was that Cam was basically their whole offense and only a couple other players on that offense are of his talent level. For some reason you keep talking about the offense as a whole and including Cam and telling me that the offense was really good. I know Cam, Stewart and Olsen are good and I know that the offense put up good numbers but why did they have such a great offensive year? Was it because they have great talent on the OL and really talented WRs? Not really. The Broncos showed that the Panthers had major weaknesses when Cam is being shut down. Same thing happened to the Packers this year. When Rodgers was pressured it showed that the players around him on offense really weren't that great and they had some issues.

I want to know if you honestly believed going into the season after Benjamin got hurt that you thought this offense was really talented and Cam is going to light it up with these great WRs. My thoughts were, Cam is going to have to carry this team, the defense is going to have to continue playing great, the run game has to make up for the passing game and Olsen will have to be the main target for Cam. It turned out that the WRs overall did OK and Ginn played one of his best seasons. None of those WRs were ever considered major talents though and most likely are still not. Brown and Funches may be eventually but aren't there yet.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

 

[Neofight]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that came looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

Why do you keep using Cam? I'm talking about Cam being good because he performed well with less talent than most teams. I fell like I'm banging my head against the wall because you don't understand what I'm talking about. You insist on trying to convince me that the WRs are great and that they would be a WR1 on any other team. Who cares where these players were drafted? I'm talking about skills compared to their peers. How good are these players really? They are all considered average WRs and Cam had an MVP season despite them. This is the point, not what freaking round they were drafted in. What is so hard to comprehend?

I would say Russell Wilson did something very similar. He had an amazing second half of the season throwing the ball to WRs that most people would consider average. He didn't even have Graham.

See bolded. If you're banging your head against the wall, perhaps it's because you have some of the same issues you accuse others of?

Jesus man. Cam is the focal point of my discussion. I am talking about the talent surrounding Cam, not Cam himself. I am not talking about the team as a whole and I'm not talking about the defense. I am talking about the quality of talent on the offense that Cam has to work with. It is not as good as what you would expect a 15-1 team to have.

Go back in history and show me teams that went 15-1 that you believe had less talent on their offense than the Panthers this year. Did you truly believe that the talent surrounding Cam on offense was good enough to produce the season it did? I can't imagine anyone thought it would.

Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious: record is a team stat. And we're striving to keep this about the offense, right? My belief is that the defense contributed a little bit to that 15-1 record. They forced a few turnovers and whatnot...So do you think we should try to work an algorithm that determines what percentage of those wins were directly attributable to Newton? Do you have thoughts on where to start with that?

 

[Hawkeye21]

You're right, the defense had a lot to do with it. Maybe I should start from scratch. Do you think Cam had the season he had because of his WR and OL or do you think his WRs and OL looked better because of Cam? Going into this season would any knowledgeable NFL fan, who's favorite team is not the Panthers, say "Wow! The Panthers are loaded on offense. I think Cam is going to have an MVP season." I would bet not. In fact I would bet most people looked at the roster and said "Cam is going to have his work cut out for him this year. Olsen is his only threat in the passing game."

If you thought different going into this season then you're a genius.

 

[Neofight]

The whole point I have been trying to make was that Cam was basically their whole offense and only a couple other players on that offense are of his talent level. For some reason you keep talking about the offense as a whole and including Cam and telling me that the offense was really good. I know Cam, Stewart and Olsen are good and I know that the offense put up good numbers but why did they have such a great offensive year? Was it because they have great talent on the OL and really talented WRs? Not really. The Broncos showed that the Panthers had major weaknesses when Cam is being shut down. Same thing happened to the Packers this year. When Rodgers was pressured it showed that the players around him on offense really weren't that great and they had some issues.

I want to know if you honestly believed going into the season after Benjamin got hurt that you thought this offense was really talented and Cam is going to light it up with these great WRs. My thoughts were, Cam is going to have to carry this team, the defense is going to have to continue playing great, the run game has to make up for the passing game and Olsen will have to be the main target for Cam. It turned out that the WRs overall did OK and Ginn played one of his best seasons. None of those WRs were ever considered major talents though and most likely are still not. Brown and Funches may be eventually but aren't there yet.

I've yet to see you, or anyone, make this point.

Cam has always been average to below average in the pocket under pressure. What the Broncos showed was that if you have a dominant pass rush with guys who can play good man coverage, you can effectively shut down Newton. Most QB's would have struggled against that pass rush. Newton a little more than some.

All 4 of Carolinas primary WR's scored respectably as Starters according to PFF rankings, while Olsen was Elite. As a matter of fact, someone up thread mentioned that Cam played better than Rodgers with worse WR's, but I'm not certain that's true. I don't think Rodgers had 4 WR's grade out at above 75 with three trending up to end the season. I know he didn't have a TE grade out at 95+. Not close. I also know that his O-line was injured and played much worse. So, there would be a better argument of a player that had little around him in the way of supporting cast.

I agree with you about Funchess and Brown, they are both young and potentially ascendant. I really like Brown out of the slot, which is where we should see more of him next season. Funchess may surprise and end up being a stud; one year is not a lot of data. But it's worth noting that Carolina drafted a guy like Funchess for the same reason they liked Benjamin: he's a big target with a huge radius, which works well for a QB that isn't very accurate, particularly when under duress.

 

[cstu]

You're right, the defense had a lot to do with it. Maybe I should start from scratch. Do you think Cam had the season he had because of his WR and OL or do you think his WRs and OL looked better because of Cam? Going into this season would any knowledgeable NFL fan, who's favorite team is not the Panthers, say "Wow! The Panthers are loaded on offense. I think Cam is going to have an MVP season." I would bet not. In fact I would bet most people looked at the roster and said "Cam is going to have his work cut out for him this year. Olsen is his only threat in the passing game."

If you thought different going into this season then you're a genius.

Two things that surprised on offense:

- Stewart played 13 games

- Ginn made a lot of big plays

 

[JamesTheScot]

Pages and pages of conspiracy, all down the tubes.

Cam admits to selling out his entire team in the SUPER BOWL to "protect" his body. I mean... WOW

And then turns around and calls anyone who handles losses with grace a loser... But I would argue the large majority of his team including his head coach handled the loss with dignity and grace, so he is by extension calling them losers? The guy just doubled down on the worst possible aspects of his personality, all the while admitting he #####ed out. Not a good look at all, going to take a long time for Cam to live this down.

Good posting.

When I watched his interview, I was thinking to myself: "Show me a sore loser and I'll show you a loser too, you idiot!"

The guy has no clue. He went from being someone whose emotions get the best of him to being a guy that compounds his initial error even after he has the chance to cool off for a couple of days. He really is proving himself to be that selfish and arrogant SOB that his detractors have been saying he is.

 

[msommer]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

No one is saying that Cam Newton is lacking in talent. He is that offense.

Who says that "Only Ted Ginn/Jonathan Stewart could make that play"? Who says "Only Michael Oher could pick up that blitz"?

They might say "Only Michael Oher could get pushed back that easily", actually

 

[Sabertooth]

Newton does not strike me as the type to brood over this. I think this new generation of self promoting athletes, more conscious of their "Brand" than their team will have no problem with his conduct. The Tommy Davis's of the world are now a rare anomaly. The league is full of little Allen Iverson's, Chad Ochocinco's, T.O.'s. Newton is one of the first of a new generation of Q.B.'s. This is not Lombardi's or Noll's NFL, this is the new, hip hop, Madden game, DFS NFL and the new and growing fan base segment is going to embrace Newton just fine.

This is actually why I'm shocked he pulled the angry little boy act after the game. The reason he has been marketable is his smile and happy go lucky demeanor. Giving a glimpse of that ugly side of him was not a good PR move. And Cam is very calculating in his PR moves.

I agree. He let his true self show, it was a slip. Actually I think his true self is both the happy go lucky showman frontrunner and the petulant loser both. So long as he does not give additional glimpses into the negative side again very soon I think this blows over for him. I will remember it. I was brought up on Lombardi, Noll, George Allen, Bud Grant, and Ara Parseghian. I was brought up on John Wooden and thought Al McGuire was about as rebel as it gets. The thing is, the league no longer caters to my demographic. The world is moving on to new things. Among those things will be the embracing of the Cam Newton's of the world. This shift, this change, is not lamentable, it is the flow of history. There is no lamentation from or for those in that flow. lamentation is only possible from those of us who have left the stream and sit on the banks and watch the flow roll on bye.

To hear the Lamentations of the women. This is what is good in life.

 

[Sabertooth]

Woody Said it best in White Men Can't Jump. Same as it ever was.

 

[Sabertooth]

Pages and pages of conspiracy, all down the tubes.

Cam admits to selling out his entire team in the SUPER BOWL to "protect" his body. I mean... WOW

And then turns around and calls anyone who handles losses with grace a loser... But I would argue the large majority of his team including his head coach handled the loss with dignity and grace, so he is by extension calling them losers? The guy just doubled down on the worst possible aspects of his personality, all the while admitting he #####ed out. Not a good look at all, going to take a long time for Cam to live this down.

Good posting.

When I watched his interview, I was thinking to myself: "Show me a sore loser and I'll show you a loser too, you idiot!"

The guy has no clue. He went from being someone whose emotions get the best of him to being a guy that compounds his initial error even after he has the chance to cool off for a couple of days. He really is proving himself to be that selfish and arrogant SOB that his detractors have been saying he is.

Hes been showing it for several years now. People weren't making it up. Some people are just #######s. I'm not sure why people feel the need to defend him. He's a petulent little #####.

 

[Eminence]

First step to losing the locker room? Lol, jk. They'll be much better with Benjamin back but hopefully Benjamin hasn't lost much explosion. If Ginn can keep it up, it's a definite upgrade. I like what I've seen from Funchess.

 

[TDorBust]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?

/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

 

[Neofight]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

 

[FUBAR]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

 

[Touchdown There]

Cam's playing style will lead to injuries as he moves out of his prime and gets older. I doubt he ever makes another Super Bowl. Not jumping on that fumble will haunt him. They will still win a lot of games next year.

 

[Neofight]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

 

[Sabertooth]

Cam had his shot and blew it. Get a little pressure on him and he folds up like a card table. And pouts like the little ##### he is.

 

[steelers1080]

Well crap, I tried to come up with excuses for Cam about not diving, but it looks like he was just trying to not get hurt.

I don't think it's a horrible thing that he wears his emotions on his sleeve, it's just a different style. He'll probably be back in the SB sometime and then we can discuss this whole mess all over again.

 

[Chaka]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

No one is saying that Cam Newton is lacking in talent. He is that offense.

Who says that "Only Ted Ginn/Jonathan Stewart could make that play"? Who says "Only Michael Oher could pick up that blitz"?

They might say "Only Michael Oher could get pushed back that easily", actually

If you're talking about the SB, the field was a mess. And, credit where credit is due, he still held the block.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

All I was really trying to say is that Cam did more with what he had to work with than any other player in the NFL and that's why he deserved the MVP. The Broncos proved just how important he was to that offense when they wouldn't allow him to run too much or give him time to make accurate passes. If he had better talent around him he would have had some help but his WRs dropped balls and his OL could block because the majority of them are average players.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?

/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

What's your point? I just said they had similar situations. I never said GB had more weapons, if they did then maybe they would've been in the SB. GB had crap for offensive players this year.

 

[Soulfly3]

Nearing 9 pages, and Cam has become a bigger bish the longer this goes.

 

[Portis 26]

Let's not forget that Cam was epicly tempting fate and the football gods by donning a gold Superman jersey and gold MVP shoes before the game. What a monument to youthful folly and what a wonderful, poignant contrast the before and after shots make - before, a preening gold-clad peacock, after, a tormented figure shrouded in a black hoodie. When I saw what Cam wearing before the game I knew he was going to lose, there was no way the football gods were letting him get away with that, and cosmic justice duly prevailed.

 

[Neofight]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

All I was really trying to say is that Cam did more with what he had to work with than any other player in the NFL and that's why he deserved the MVP. The Broncos proved just how important he was to that offense when they wouldn't allow him to run too much or give him time to make accurate passes. If he had better talent around him he would have had some help but his WRs dropped balls and his OL could block because the majority of them are average players.

I still don't think you're making that point though. Cam's passing numbers weren't great compared to other QB's. Brady, for one, had less to work with when Edleman was out and he had an abysmal line. Wilson lost his starting RB and TE for much of the season and also had a horrible line. Neither of those two had a pass catching FB who could also block. Wilson didn't even have a TE who excelled at blocking. I'd say both of those QB's did more with less.

The hype built around Cam largely due to the teams record (emphasis on team). But he wasn't the best QB in either half of the season, let alone overall. Also, if memory serves, Benjamin dropped more balls last season than any Panther WR dropped this year. Ginn had 10 this year, but I believe Kelvin had 12 last year. Again, perception trumps reality.

 

[cstu]

Let's not forget that Cam was epicly tempting fate and the football gods by donning a gold Superman jersey and gold MVP shoes before the game. What a monument to youthful folly and what a wonderful, poignant contrast the before and after shots make - before, a preening gold-clad peacock, after, a tormented figure shrouded in a black hoodie. When I saw what Cam wearing before the game I knew he was going to lose, there was no way the football gods were letting him get away with that, and cosmic justice duly prevailed.

Beautiful.

 

[cstu]

Cam's playing style will lead to injuries as he moves out of his prime and gets older. I doubt he ever makes another Super Bowl. Not jumping on that fumble will haunt him. They will still win a lot of games next year.

There's a high probability they continue to win their division and there are only 3 teams who are a major challenge right now - Seahawks, Packers, and Cardinals. Due to the weakness of their division they stand a good change of getting home field again next year, which would increase their odds of making the Super Bowl immensely.

 

[Insein]

What's the first thing were taught in pee wee football? The very first thing?

BALL!!!!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What's the first thing were taught in pee wee football? The very first thing?

BALL!!!!

That's funny, and that is true.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Cam's playing style will lead to injuries as he moves out of his prime and gets older. I doubt he ever makes another Super Bowl. Not jumping on that fumble will haunt him. They will still win a lot of games next year.

There's a high probability they continue to win their division and there are only 3 teams who are a major challenge right now - Seahawks, Packers, and Cardinals. Due to the weakness of their division they stand a good change of getting home field again next year, which would increase their odds of making the Super Bowl immensely.

Carolina was lucky to win the Nfcs in 2014, they got there 7-8-1 and only because Cincy missed that OT kick.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

But when Cam explained what happened, that is how he described it. He was afraid to get hurt.

 

[Neofight]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

When Cam exited stage right DeMarcus Ware had a hand on the ball. But check out the All 22 overhead view of Cam going after it: http://thebiglead.com/2016/02/09/cam-newton-fumble-jump-back-super-bowl/

 

[Sabertooth]

Cam had very little chance of getting that ball. He had and even lower chance of winning the game if he did recover. That said, you gotta go for the ball.

 

[steelers1080]

Let's not forget that Cam was epicly tempting fate and the football gods by donning a gold Superman jersey and gold MVP shoes before the game. What a monument to youthful folly and what a wonderful, poignant contrast the before and after shots make - before, a preening gold-clad peacock, after, a tormented figure shrouded in a black hoodie. When I saw what Cam wearing before the game I knew he was going to lose, there was no way the football gods were letting him get away with that, and cosmic justice duly prevailed.

Never anger the football gods! Everyone should know this.

People in my fantasy league learned this hard lesson this year. The 2 biggest smack talkers played for last place.

 

[Chaka]

Cam had very little chance of getting that ball. He had and even lower chance of winning the game if he did recover. That said, you gotta go for the ball.

IDK...seems like he had as good a shot at that ball as anyone.

 

[JamesTheScot]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

Which is really no different than any other fumble where 8 players end up in a pile trying to dig it out.

What Cam has done, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out, is he's abandoned the moral high ground when it comes to the issue of sacrificing for the team. Because what we all hate, even more than an arrogant show boat, is a hypocrite. Even the people who don't mind showboating don't like hypocrites.

So what's Cam going to say the next time he rifles one over the middle to a WR who is looking at getting blown up as soon as he touches the ball? Hopefully the WR ignores Cam's example and doesn't alligator arm it. But if he follows Cam's example, what's Cam going to say to him back in the huddle?

That's why this matters. It's bigger than just that one play. Because the morality of it is in play on most every play in every game, at least to some extent. If Cam can lay off for fear of injury in what was a do or die moment in the biggest game of his life, is he going to have any credibility when he tries to hold a teammate accountable for not going all out on some play in the second quarter in week 4 of next season? And that's why I think this is a bigger leadership issue than some realize or want to admit.

While his teammates are going to publicly back him now, this is the type of thing that absolutely could come back to haunt him if he gets put in a position where someone needs to get called out for not trying hard enough. Who on the team is going to bang that drum when the face of the franchise has gone on record with the press saying that it's OK to not go all out in the biggest game of your life and basically FU if you don't like it because who are you to say your way is the right way of doing things. Well, who in the hell is Cam Newton to tell anyone their way of doing things isn't the right way of doing it?

Is anyone here old enough to remember Ty Detmer calling out Ricky Watters for alligator arming it on a pass across the middle years ago? That one play was linked to Watters for the rest of his career. He didn't get drummed out of the league, but he had to live that down the rest of his career. And it was right there as the first criticism people had on him whenever the topic of his greatness, or lack thereof, was brought up. And everyone backed Detmer for calling him out even though Detmer was a pretty unspectacular QB. Why? Because Detmer was in a leadership role and he was in the right on the issue and it was his job to hold his teammates accountable. Now, imagine what Watters would have said back to Detmer (not to mention how it would have played out in the press) on the sideline if Detmer had been on the record saying it was OK to not jump on a loose ball if you think you might get injured.

That's the real estate that Cam pissed away on that play. But the bigger tragedy and what should set off alarm bells is that he still didn't get it two days later after he did it and had had a chance to reflect on it. Cam can absolutely limit his own greatness because he just gave up the right to ask for and even demand greatness from those around him. And isn't that what we say about the great ones? That they made those around them better?

 

[moleculo]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

Which is really no different than any other fumble where 8 players end up in a pile trying to dig it out.

What Cam has done, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out, is he's abandoned the moral high ground when it comes to the issue of sacrificing for the team. Because what we all hate, even more than an arrogant show boat, is a hypocrite. Even the people who don't mind showboating don't like hypocrites.

So what's Cam going to say the next time he rifles one over the middle to a WR who is looking at getting blown up as soon as he touches the ball? Hopefully the WR ignores Cam's example and doesn't alligator arm it. But if he follows Cam's example, what's Cam going to say to him back in the huddle?

That's why this matters. It's bigger than just that one play. Because the morality of it is in play on most every play in every game, at least to some extent. If Cam can lay off for fear of injury in what was a do or die moment in the biggest game of his life, is he going to have any credibility when he tries to hold a teammate accountable for not going all out on some play in the second quarter in week 4 of next season? And that's why I think this is a bigger leadership issue than some realize or want to admit.

While his teammates are going to publicly back him now, this is the type of thing that absolutely could come back to haunt him if he gets put in a position where someone needs to get called out for not trying hard enough. Who on the team is going to bang that drum when the face of the franchise has gone on record with the press saying that it's OK to not go all out in the biggest game of your life and basically FU if you don't like it because who are you to say your way is the right way of doing things. Well, who in the hell is Cam Newton to tell anyone their way of doing things isn't the right way of doing it?

Is anyone here old enough to remember Ty Detmer calling out Ricky Watters for alligator arming it on a pass across the middle years ago? That one play was linked to Watters for the rest of his career. He didn't get drummed out of the league, but he had to live that down the rest of his career. And it was right there as the first criticism people had on him whenever the topic of his greatness, or lack thereof, was brought up. And everyone backed Detmer for calling him out even though Detmer was a pretty unspectacular QB. Why? Because Detmer was in a leadership role and he was in the right on the issue and it was his job to hold his teammates accountable. Now, imagine what Watters would have said back to Detmer (not to mention how it would have played out in the press) on the sideline if Detmer had been on the record saying it was OK to not jump on a loose ball if you think you might get injured.

That's the real estate that Cam pissed away on that play. But the bigger tragedy and what should set off alarm bells is that he still didn't get it two days later after he did it and had had a chance to reflect on it. Cam can absolutely limit his own greatness because he just gave up the right to ask for and even demand greatness from those around him. And isn't that what we say about the great ones? That they made those around them better?

 

[JamesTheScot]

Cam had very little chance of getting that ball. He had and even lower chance of winning the game if he did recover. That said, you gotta go for the ball.

But it isn't about those particular odds in isolation at that point. Because what were the odds of winning if Carolina didn't recover it? Even lower.

Cam had already lost the game in his own mind. There was no visualized glory train for him to ride anymore. He wasn't focused on how to pull out a win at that point. Had he been focused, he would have been cognizant of how bad a lost fumble would be in that part of the field at that point in the game. Instead, he was already pouting. So when the ball came loose and he had to in an instant decide what to do, the context of his mindset made bailing on it the right choice in his mind. That's why I think the press conference and the fumble are related. He was coming from the same place (in terms of his emotions and focus) in both instances.

Here's the thing, I could look past it in the sense that it's something he can grow out of. But his doubling down on it as justified, after having had a couple of days to reflect on it, is problematic. He knows what people are saying about it. You know he does. But at least for right now, his instinct is to be defensive about it so he's all about making excuses and trying to justify it when instead he should be owning it as a mistake and growing from it.

As much as we can dislike someone, we also as a culture like to forgive. So this is something he can fix. But he isn't doing himself any favors with how he's playing it now. And the longer he goes and the more times he tries to excuse it, the less likely people will believe he's sincere if he ever does come around.

 

[FUBAR]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

All I was really trying to say is that Cam did more with what he had to work with than any other player in the NFL and that's why he deserved the MVP. The Broncos proved just how important he was to that offense when they wouldn't allow him to run too much or give him time to make accurate passes. If he had better talent around him he would have had some help but his WRs dropped balls and his OL could block because the majority of them are average players.

I still don't think you're making that point though. Cam's passing numbers weren't great compared to other QB's. Brady, for one, had less to work with when Edleman was out and he had an abysmal line. Wilson lost his starting RB and TE for much of the season and also had a horrible line. Neither of those two had a pass catching FB who could also block. Wilson didn't even have a TE who excelled at blocking. I'd say both of those QB's did more with less.

The hype built around Cam largely due to the teams record (emphasis on team). But he wasn't the best QB in either half of the season, let alone overall. Also, if memory serves, Benjamin dropped more balls last season than any Panther WR dropped this year. Ginn had 10 this year, but I believe Kelvin had 12 last year. Again, perception trumps reality.

sure, if passing were the only thing he brought to the game he wouldn't be MVP. But he was a top 10 QB and a top 10 running threat. That adds a lot to the hype.

Ginn had the highest percentage of dropped passes of anyone with 40 receptions - except Demarco Murray.

KB had 10 dropped passes last year (same as Ginn this year) with more receptions. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/

 

[davearm]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

 

[MG345]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

That would make more sense but we know for a fact that Cam was afraid of injury.