Buffalo Safety-Damar Hamlin is awake and **Bills at Bengals** Game has been Canceled (1 Viewer)

[IvanKaramazov]

If the Bills and Chiefs play for the AFC Championship, it could be played in a neutral stadium to avoid punishing the Bills for last night's game.

I’m not sure that “we shouldn’t punish the Bills, so let’s punish the Chiefs” is a reasonable alternative unfortunately.

The Chiefs would already have the unearned benefit of the first round bye and they certainly shouldn't also get the unearned benefit of the home championship game.

Unearned?

Yes. They lost to both the Bills and Bengals. If the league does decide to just do seeding by win percentage, they'll be handed the #1 seed by virtue of a player on another team being gravely injured.

I'm okay with that. There were no "fair" solutions to this after they made the decision to postpone the game. I was okay with postponing it, which means I have to be okay with a slightly unfair outcome. Assuming that the Chiefs and Bills both win this weekend (assuming), this outcome is basically the same as if we had just lost to Cincinnati*, which is not exactly a cosmic injustice all things considered. But yeah it's a bit of gift to the Chiefs. With any luck, we'll get a chance to settle it on the field of play.

* Edit: Actually, that's not really true. I think the "win %" outcome gives us the inside track to the #2 seed. A loss would have left us looking at the #3 seed instead. So the Bills aren't really being treated all that badly.

 

[Miro Z]

On the injustice to the Bills point, the McDermott comments today strongly suggest that it was the Bills who didn't want to continue the Bengals game after the injury, and that this was then communicated to the officials who agreed they couldn't force them to and thus suspended the game. So while I don't blame the Bills for that at all (they had just seen a team-mate suffer a cardiac arrest), they were the ones refusing to play and basically forfeiting.

 

[renesauz]

If the Bills and Chiefs play for the AFC Championship, it could be played in a neutral stadium to avoid punishing the Bills for last night's game.

I’m not sure that “we shouldn’t punish the Bills, so let’s punish the Chiefs” is a reasonable alternative unfortunately.

The Chiefs would already have the unearned benefit of the first round bye and they certainly shouldn't also get the unearned benefit of the home championship game.

Unearned?

Yes. They lost to both the Bills and Bengals. If the league does decide to just do seeding by win percentage, they'll be handed the #1 seed by virtue of a player on another team being gravely injured.

I'm okay with that. There were no "fair" solutions to this after they made the decision to postpone the game. I was okay with postponing it, which means I have to be okay with a slightly unfair outcome. Assuming that the Chiefs and Bills both win this weekend (assuming), this outcome is basically the same as if we had just lost to Cincinnati*, which is not exactly a cosmic injustice all things considered. But yeah it's a bit of gift to the Chiefs. With any luck, we'll get a chance to settle it on the field of play.

* Edit: Actually, that's not really true. I think the "win %" outcome gives us the inside track to the #2 seed. A loss would have left us looking at the #3 seed instead. So the Bills aren't really being treated all that badly.

not COMPLETELY accurate. Chiefs gain an unfair disadvantage over the team that would have LOST the MNF game, but an unfair advantage against the team that would have WON the MNF game. Taking away the round robin tiebreaks also gains them an advantage since they had the 2 losses in said round robin already. It's a mess any way you slice it with no perfect answer

 

[renesauz]

On the injustice to the Bills point, the McDermott comments today strongly suggest that it was the Bills who didn't want to continue the Bengals game after the injury, and that this was then communicated to the officials who agreed they couldn't force them to and thus suspended the game. So while I don't blame the Bills for that at all (they had just seen a team-mate suffer a cardiac arrest), they were the ones refusing to play and basically forfeiting.

Was saying this at the time (though not well). If a result HAD to be used without actually playing the game, the only result fair to the rest of the league was a BIlls forfeit. While few of us are convinced there has to be an absolute result, Bills should not be awarded any kind of advantage in any of the imperfect solutions (IE: I'm not sure I'd be ok with a scenario where Buffalo gets home field and the bye based on winning % by a couple points playing one less game)

 

[IvanKaramazov]

On the injustice to the Bills point, the McDermott comments today strongly suggest that it was the Bills who didn't want to continue the Bengals game after the injury, and that this was then communicated to the officials who agreed they couldn't force them to and thus suspended the game. So while I don't blame the Bills for that at all (they had just seen a team-mate suffer a cardiac arrest), they were the ones refusing to play and basically forfeiting.

Was saying this at the time (though not well). If a result HAD to be used without actually playing the game, the only result fair to the rest of the league was a BIlls forfeit. While few of us are convinced there has to be an absolute result, Bills should not be awarded any kind of advantage in any of the imperfect solutions (IE: I'm not sure I'd be ok with a scenario where Buffalo gets home field and the bye based on winning % by a couple points playing one less game)

I think the only way this happens is if we (the Bills) beat the Patriots and the Chiefs lose to the Raiders. The Bills would finish with a better record and they beat the Chiefs head-to-head. That head-to-head win makes me feel a lot better about getting the #1 seed in that scenario.

The fact that we actually beat the Chiefs -- in Arrowhead no less -- is something that folks should keep in mind when evaluating the fairness of any given outcome. I'm not arguing for any special favors, and I don't really want any TBH. But if we pip the Chiefs by a few %, they really only have themselves to blame. They lost a home game to us.

 

[Anarchy99]

If the Bills and Chiefs play for the AFC Championship, it could be played in a neutral stadium to avoid punishing the Bills for last night's game.

I’m not sure that “we shouldn’t punish the Bills, so let’s punish the Chiefs” is a reasonable alternative unfortunately.

The Chiefs would already have the unearned benefit of the first round bye and they certainly shouldn't also get the unearned benefit of the home championship game.

Unearned?

Yes. They lost to both the Bills and Bengals. If the league does decide to just do seeding by win percentage, they'll be handed the #1 seed by virtue of a player on another team being gravely injured.

I'm okay with that. There were no "fair" solutions to this after they made the decision to postpone the game. I was okay with postponing it, which means I have to be okay with a slightly unfair outcome. Assuming that the Chiefs and Bills both win this weekend (assuming), this outcome is basically the same as if we had just lost to Cincinnati*, which is not exactly a cosmic injustice all things considered. But yeah it's a bit of gift to the Chiefs. With any luck, we'll get a chance to settle it on the field of play.

* Edit: Actually, that's not really true. I think the "win %" outcome gives us the inside track to the #2 seed. A loss would have left us looking at the #3 seed instead. So the Bills aren't really being treated all that badly.

not COMPLETELY accurate. Chiefs gain an unfair disadvantage over the team that would have LOST the MNF game, but an unfair advantage against the team that would have WON the MNF game. Taking away the round robin tiebreaks also gains them an advantage since they had the 2 losses in said round robin already. It's a mess any way you slice it with no perfect answer

If the Chiefs beat the Raiders, the Bengals could not have been the #1 seed even if they beat the Bills. They did not control the ability to gain the top seed, while the Bills did. And in a 4-point game with 54 minutes remaining in the game, it is impossible to conclude that the Bengals would have won. At this point, if the Bills beat the Patriots, CIN can only be the #3 seed. If they get any consideration for the top seed now should the Chiefs have the best record, that wouldn't make any sense.

 

[-OZ-]

Seems like lunacy: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/could-nfl-expand-playoffs-bills-bengals-called


If it does opt to go toward the expanded playoff model, the NFL would need to have eight teams to qualify from each conference.

“Winning percentage becomes the most obvious method,” wrote NBC Sports’ Mike Florio on Thursday as he weighed a non-playoff expansion option for the league. “But there are concerns about equity, given that the winner of the Bills-Bengals game would have been in position to be one of the top seed AFC seeds.”Florio arrived on adding an eighth team to the playoff field in the AFC.

“This would eliminate the bye for the No. 1 seed,” he wrote.

Of course, it wouldn’t come without complications.

“To ensure competitive balance, there would have to be eight teams in the NFC, too,” Florio said.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Seems like lunacy: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/could-nfl-expand-playoffs-bills-bengals-called


If it does opt to go toward the expanded playoff model, the NFL would need to have eight teams to qualify from each conference.

“Winning percentage becomes the most obvious method,” wrote NBC Sports’ Mike Florio on Thursday as he weighed a non-playoff expansion option for the league. “But there are concerns about equity, given that the winner of the Bills-Bengals game would have been in position to be one of the top seed AFC seeds.”Florio arrived on adding an eighth team to the playoff field in the AFC.

“This would eliminate the bye for the No. 1 seed,” he wrote.

Of course, it wouldn’t come without complications.

“To ensure competitive balance, there would have to be eight teams in the NFC, too,” Florio said.

I really think this is a dumb idea that reflects badly on the league. It's sufficiently dumb that there should be some professional consequences for whoever decided to put this trial balloon out there.
We've spent the last couple of days talking about how this situation will affect the Bills, Bengals, Chiefs, and Ravens. The poor Eagles were just standing there minding their own business and we're going to take their bye away? I'm sure Philly fans will graciously take that in stride, as is their MO, but this is ludicrously unfair for no reason.

 

[LawFitz]

The precedent should be set simply as this - when an Act of God forces the cancelation of a game, it is what it is. Winning % determines seeding before said Act and should do so after, without said game in play. Sometimes this will hurt one team. Other times it will hurt another. There's no perfect way to solve for this, so just default to the simple Act of God standard and move on.

Sux bad for Buffalo in this instance, but it could've just as randomly benefited them (as is the case for Cincy vs. Baltimore in their divisional race - by not losing to Buffalo). Bills got super unlucky this time. Again, it is what it is. Hopefully, we won't see another Act of God cancelation anytime soon. And hopefully Karma will come back around to help the Bills when the games count for a whole lot more than seeding.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I was reading something the other day (sorry, I don't remember where) that talked about how decisions are made these days in all sorts of organizations. The author used the metaphor of "kindergarten soccer" which is such a delicious image that I'm stealing it from now on. If you've ever been to a soccer game for little kids, it's just a bunch of children in a big crowd all trying to kick the ball. There's no strategy, no objective, and half the kids don't even know what direction the goal is in. But by God the most important thing in the world in the next 10 seconds is kicking that ball without a thought in the world to what comes next.

This describes this week in the NFL to a tee. First they pause a game with no plan in place for how to deal with it. Then then spend all week screwing around when a group of competent adults, like a random sample of this forum, could have had a reasonable solution in place by start of business Tuesday morning. This isn't that hard, but the NFL is making the easy look impossible.

 

[babydemon90]

Seems like lunacy: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/could-nfl-expand-playoffs-bills-bengals-called


If it does opt to go toward the expanded playoff model, the NFL would need to have eight teams to qualify from each conference.

“Winning percentage becomes the most obvious method,” wrote NBC Sports’ Mike Florio on Thursday as he weighed a non-playoff expansion option for the league. “But there are concerns about equity, given that the winner of the Bills-Bengals game would have been in position to be one of the top seed AFC seeds.”Florio arrived on adding an eighth team to the playoff field in the AFC.

“This would eliminate the bye for the No. 1 seed,” he wrote.

Of course, it wouldn’t come without complications.

“To ensure competitive balance, there would have to be eight teams in the NFC, too,” Florio said.

There's nothing from the NFL considering that as a possible alternative - that would be a disaster. There's a better chance they do the ping pong ball approach.
Teams that were eliminated and have been elevating backups and such for facetime this week getting one day notice that they are still in it? No chance.

 

[babydemon90]

Oh hey Washington, guess what, you're still in it. Howell still going in at QB?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The precedent should be set simply as this - when an Act of God forces the cancelation of a game, it is what it is. Winning % determines seeding before said Act and should do so after, without said game in play. Sometimes this will hurt one team. Other times it will hurt another. There's no perfect way to solve for this, so just default to the simple Act of God standard and move on.

Sux bad for Buffalo in this instance, but it could've just as randomly benefited them (as is the case for Cincy vs. Baltimore in their divisional race - by not losing to Buffalo). Bills got super unlucky this time. Again, it is what it is. Hopefully, we won't see another Act of God cancelation anytime soon. And hopefully Karma will come back around to help the Bills when the games count for a whole lot more than seeding.

Agreed with all of this, and in the offseason the league should establish some guidelines for when this happens. The next time a player is seriously injured in a game, this game will be used a precedent for cancelation. This needs to be clarified in advance. It's okay if there if the policy leaves some scope for professional judgement by somebody in New York, but there needs to be a policy.

 

[Da Guru]

This is still too early to tell. I friend of mine had a cardiac arrest and was in pretty much the same situation for weeks. At times he would grab his wife`s hand or eyes would open and close and they would get excited, but he was far from out of the woods.

This makes me curious as to what actions would be seen as signs that Hamlin is "out of the woods" (not to say 100% back to normal). Does it have to get to the point where he's able to get out of bed and walk around under his own power, or is there something that would be seen as "out of the woods" even if he were still bed-bound?

In these situations, I am not sure. I would think when the medical staff announces they are happy with the way things are trending.

Some of the medical folks in this thread might be able to share their opinions. Maybe it's things like holding conversations (even if haltingly), drinking/eating (generally, swallowing safely and un-aided), or things like that.

While still intubated....it's obvious awareness of surroundings, a clear desire to try to communicate, ability to move and control all limbs (even if weakly) and following simple commands.
Immediately post extubation, it's a more thorough assessment of full orientation, able to safely swallow, some improvement in strength. Able to get OOB and walk will depend on factors such as length of being intubated, amount and type of of medications given and being given. Some people require significant rehab after an event like this. In Hamlins case, he wasn't actually out of it that long, and he's starting without weakness/comorbidities. I would expect him out of bed and walking around within a day or two of getting extubated....but that's merely a qualified guess from here.

Does being intubated screw you up that much, or that fast?

 

[renesauz]

This is still too early to tell. I friend of mine had a cardiac arrest and was in pretty much the same situation for weeks. At times he would grab his wife`s hand or eyes would open and close and they would get excited, but he was far from out of the woods.

This makes me curious as to what actions would be seen as signs that Hamlin is "out of the woods" (not to say 100% back to normal). Does it have to get to the point where he's able to get out of bed and walk around under his own power, or is there something that would be seen as "out of the woods" even if he were still bed-bound?

In these situations, I am not sure. I would think when the medical staff announces they are happy with the way things are trending.

Some of the medical folks in this thread might be able to share their opinions. Maybe it's things like holding conversations (even if haltingly), drinking/eating (generally, swallowing safely and un-aided), or things like that.

While still intubated....it's obvious awareness of surroundings, a clear desire to try to communicate, ability to move and control all limbs (even if weakly) and following simple commands.
Immediately post extubation, it's a more thorough assessment of full orientation, able to safely swallow, some improvement in strength. Able to get OOB and walk will depend on factors such as length of being intubated, amount and type of of medications given and being given. Some people require significant rehab after an event like this. In Hamlins case, he wasn't actually out of it that long, and he's starting without weakness/comorbidities. I would expect him out of bed and walking around within a day or two of getting extubated....but that's merely a qualified guess from here.

Does being intubated screw you up that much, or that fast?

For a young healthy adult? Not likely. But spend 10 days seriously sick on a ventilator, with tons of drugs going in you to keep you sedated....don't walk or make any significant movements on your own for that ten days.....people can get fairly debilitated and require some time in rehab. Even relatively young people. But keep in mind you don't see a lot of 20 somethings in this scenario outside of significant trauma (GSW/Car accidents, etc.) that would require rehab for the trauma itself. Many folks on a ventilator are older, weaker, often with some issues before the event (cane or walker, previous strokes leaving balance issues, for example)

Again, it would be fairly surprising for this kid to need a rehab facility unless there is some real neuro insult, which doesn't look likely at the moment

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Oh hey Washington, guess what, you're still in it. Howell still going in at QB?

SHHH! Nobody tell Rivera!

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Again, it would be fairly surprising for this kid to need a rehab facility unless there is some real neuro insult, which doesn't look likely at the moment

Nothing to add, other than that whenever I hear the word "insult" used in a clinical manner, it brings a very evocative image to mind

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

The precedent should be set simply as this - when an Act of God forces the cancelation of a game, it is what it is. Winning % determines seeding before said Act and should do so after, without said game in play. Sometimes this will hurt one team. Other times it will hurt another. There's no perfect way to solve for this, so just default to the simple Act of God standard and move on.

Sux bad for Buffalo in this instance, but it could've just as randomly benefited them (as is the case for Cincy vs. Baltimore in their divisional race - by not losing to Buffalo). Bills got super unlucky this time. Again, it is what it is. Hopefully, we won't see another Act of God cancelation anytime soon. And hopefully Karma will come back around to help the Bills when the games count for a whole lot more than seeding.

The most unfair thing I've ever seen on a football field was when Laquon Treadwell broke his leg -- and fumbled -- just as he was about to score the potential game-winning TD against Alabama in 2014. I had zero rooting interest in the game, but felt absolutely heartbroken when I saw that play. Ole Miss was literally inches away from victory, but instead lost the ball, the game and its best player in the same instant.

Obviously, no one suggested at the time that the SEC should do something to make up the unfairness to Ole Miss, because it all occurred within the recognized confines of the game. But I view this Hamlin situation as being pretty much the same thing. It sucks that they couldn't finish the game. It sucks that there's no easy option to make it up. It sucks that this will potentially impact Buffalo's playoff chances. And of course, none of that suckage is even close to how much it sucks that a young man nearly lost his life. It's all terrible. But just because something's unfair, it doesn't mean there's an imperative to make it right. Sometimes life is just not fair

 

[Todem]

You know…..it will be what it will be. The most important thing is Hamlin is going to recover and by all accounts live a normal life and IMO play football again if he can.

 

[Runkle]

I was reading something the other day (sorry, I don't remember where) that talked about how decisions are made these days in all sorts of organizations. The author used the metaphor of "kindergarten soccer" which is such a delicious image that I'm stealing it from now on. If you've ever been to a soccer game for little kids, it's just a bunch of children in a big crowd all trying to kick the ball. There's no strategy, no objective, and half the kids don't even know what direction the goal is in. But by God the most important thing in the world in the next 10 seconds is kicking that ball without a thought in the world to what comes next.

This describes this week in the NFL to a tee. First they pause a game with no plan in place for how to deal with it. Then then spend all week screwing around when a group of competent adults, like a random sample of this forum, could have had a reasonable solution in place by start of business Tuesday morning. This isn't that hard, but the NFL is making the easy look impossible.

While I agree with you in general, we are not a party to the specifics coming from the side of the teams/players. We don't know if the Bills and/or Bengals refused to retake the field on Monday and/or Tuesday or Wednesday as Hamlin's status was still unknown and presumably weighing heavily on them. The NFL may have proposed options in private that the Bills (and/or Bengals) rejected, and rather than suffer the optics of publicly handing them a forfeit and loss in this situation, especially while Hamlin's still fighting for his life, instead they are officially keeping mum. The league's hands could be tied here... sure, the rules say a game must resume by Wednesday... but if the Bills reply is "F you, we'll just forfeit", Goodell can't force them onto the turf. Goodell's only option then is to accept the forfeit. He probably doesn't want to. But, if certain games go certain ways in week 18... it's possible that he could do something like declare it a "no contest" or a "tie" or whatever that would have the same impact on the standings as the official forfeit would have, and save face in the process.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I was reading something the other day (sorry, I don't remember where) that talked about how decisions are made these days in all sorts of organizations. The author used the metaphor of "kindergarten soccer" which is such a delicious image that I'm stealing it from now on. If you've ever been to a soccer game for little kids, it's just a bunch of children in a big crowd all trying to kick the ball. There's no strategy, no objective, and half the kids don't even know what direction the goal is in. But by God the most important thing in the world in the next 10 seconds is kicking that ball without a thought in the world to what comes next.

This describes this week in the NFL to a tee. First they pause a game with no plan in place for how to deal with it. Then then spend all week screwing around when a group of competent adults, like a random sample of this forum, could have had a reasonable solution in place by start of business Tuesday morning. This isn't that hard, but the NFL is making the easy look impossible.

I'm posting this Thursday evening, and I'm seeing a wide array of options for fantasy leagues still being discussed. I'm not sure we have a consensus on what a reasonable solutions is, so I doubt 32 billionaires would, either.

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

Officially announced no-contest per sleeper. I don't know what that means.

 

[renesauz]

I was reading something the other day (sorry, I don't remember where) that talked about how decisions are made these days in all sorts of organizations. The author used the metaphor of "kindergarten soccer" which is such a delicious image that I'm stealing it from now on. If you've ever been to a soccer game for little kids, it's just a bunch of children in a big crowd all trying to kick the ball. There's no strategy, no objective, and half the kids don't even know what direction the goal is in. But by God the most important thing in the world in the next 10 seconds is kicking that ball without a thought in the world to what comes next.

This describes this week in the NFL to a tee. First they pause a game with no plan in place for how to deal with it. Then then spend all week screwing around when a group of competent adults, like a random sample of this forum, could have had a reasonable solution in place by start of business Tuesday morning. This isn't that hard, but the NFL is making the easy look impossible.

I'm posting this Thursday evening, and I'm seeing a wide array of options for fantasy leagues still being discussed. I'm not sure we have a consensus on what a reasonable solutions is, so I doubt 32 billionaires would, either.

In most of my leagues, folks have been pretty reasonable, generally splitting pots where outcomes were in doubt and conceding where they really weren't other then technically (For example: in one spot a guy would have required both a season high from Allen AND a season low from the Buffalo defense...just to pull within 10). In another spot a guy would have probably won but wasn't a big enough given to just claim it. The owners involved agreed to split the pot as long as the likely winner was officially recognized as champ.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Officially announced no-contest per sleeper. I don't know what that means.

It means the game will not be played. All of the scenarios where they play Week 19 and push the playoffs back would seem to be off the table. But I suppose it is still possible they monkey with the playoffs in some way, like maybe putting the AFCCG at a neutral site. I hope they don’t

 

[SoBeDad]

Officially announced no-contest per sleeper. I don't know what that means.

It means the game will not be played. All of the scenarios where they play Week 19 and push the playoffs back would seem to be off the table. But I suppose it is still possible they monkey with the playoffs in some way, like maybe putting the AFCCG at a neutral site. I hope they don’t

>>NFL confirms that if Chiefs finish 14-3 and Bills 13-3, then the AFC Championship Game would be at a neutral site, but the Chiefs would still get the No. 1 seed and a first-round bye.<<

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/1611197706915004416?t=0j3qy5iwyc2J_-_8U3MoPA&s=19

 

[SoBeDad]

BUF opponent in round 1 would be Miami... if they make the playoffs by beating the Jets and BUF beats NE.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Officially announced no-contest per sleeper. I don't know what that means.

It means the game will not be played. All of the scenarios where they play Week 19 and push the playoffs back would seem to be off the table. But I suppose it is still possible they monkey with the playoffs in some way, like maybe putting the AFCCG at a neutral site. I hope they don’t

>>NFL confirms that if Chiefs finish 14-3 and Bills 13-3, then the AFC Championship Game would be at a neutral site, but the Chiefs would still get the No. 1 seed and a first-round bye.<<

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/1611197706915004416?t=0j3qy5iwyc2J_-_8U3MoPA&s=19

Saw that. I disagree, but of all the things they could have done with the playoffs, this is a relatively light touch. World will go on

 

[SoBeDad]

Getting ahead a little, but Miami in late January would not be a bad neutral site. Real grass, usually good weather, nice for the fans, except the hotel expense.

 

[hagmania]

I wonder how many early retirements we'll see. Whole lot of guys that have been paid a whole lot of money that could very well decide they're content with life as is.

 

[Terminalxylem]

... it's not posturing, he's holding my hand (btw....grasping a hand is a basic reflex that infants do from birth...LETTING GO when asked to is the real progress ...

@renesauz and @growlers , @Terminalxylem , and anyone else who might know:

This hasn't been reported yet, but with his eyes now open, Hamlin's caregivers and family might start noticing him tracking people in the room with his eyes. Would this be a meaningful development? Or does it have to be done on command (e.g. 'follow this light')?

I'm a Hospitalist at a fairly large community hospital that doesn't have dedicated Critical Care physicians. We are almost always the primary attendings on patients with Cardiac arrest--unless it's from a massive heart attack.

If you think about all that is involved in the ability to follow a command.

You have to hear it. You have to understand it. You have to tell your hand to do something. Your hand has to actually do it.
He's probably looking at them already.

Neurologically, they're probably about ready to try him off of the ventilator. Not clear what the "lung damage" was. Maybe that was clarified in a report that I missed. Hopefully we'll hear more massively positive updates through the weekend.

The doctor said he went into ARDS. Unclear to me why that would happen but it was apparently relatively breif if his settings are down and they are waking him up and communicating. Unusual for this type of arrest but not unheard of

Might be related to pulmonary contusion post CPR, or aspiration. It’s also possible he was playing with a respiratory infection, and his arrest wasn’t due to commotio cordis after all (I think less likelly, as he was able to play part of an NFL game).

As to others’ questions about prognostication, following commands and communicating are great signs. Next up is getting off the vent.

 

[fatness]

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-rules-...-prepare-to-vote-on-inequities-021730972.html

The NFL announced Thursday night that it has canceled the remainder of the Monday Night Football game between the Buffalo Bills and Cincinnati Bengals and will designate the game as a “no contest,” leaving the two franchises with only 16 games in the 2022 schedule.

That decision — which comes on the heels of a postponement following the cardiac arrest and subsequent hospitalization of Bills safety Damar Hamlin during Monday’s game — will be followed by a special league meeting on Friday, in which team owners will vote on a playoff plan to balance out potential “competitive inequities.”

the league’s competition committee and commissioner Roger Goodell drew up a set of scenarios for owners to vote on Friday to smooth out advantages that could result from the cancellation.

Those scenarios:

Scenario 1: Buffalo and Kansas City both win or tie in Week 18 — a Buffalo vs. Kansas City AFC championship game would be at a neutral site.

Scenario 2: Buffalo and Kansas City both lose in Week 18 and Baltimore wins or ties — a Buffalo vs. Kansas City AFC championship game would be at a neutral site.

Scenario 3: Buffalo and Kansas City both lose and Cincinnati wins — a Buffalo or Cincinnati vs. Kansas City AFC championship game would be at a neutral site.

 

[renesauz]

I wonder how many early retirements we'll see. Whole lot of guys that have been paid a whole lot of money that could very well decide they're content with life as is.

May depend on how well educated they make themselves over the condition/facts. This was a freakish thing, and extraordinarily unlikely. ON the order of getting hit by lightning type of thing

 

[renesauz]

... it's not posturing, he's holding my hand (btw....grasping a hand is a basic reflex that infants do from birth...LETTING GO when asked to is the real progress ...

@renesauz and @growlers , @Terminalxylem , and anyone else who might know:

This hasn't been reported yet, but with his eyes now open, Hamlin's caregivers and family might start noticing him tracking people in the room with his eyes. Would this be a meaningful development? Or does it have to be done on command (e.g. 'follow this light')?

I'm a Hospitalist at a fairly large community hospital that doesn't have dedicated Critical Care physicians. We are almost always the primary attendings on patients with Cardiac arrest--unless it's from a massive heart attack.

If you think about all that is involved in the ability to follow a command.

You have to hear it. You have to understand it. You have to tell your hand to do something. Your hand has to actually do it.
He's probably looking at them already.

Neurologically, they're probably about ready to try him off of the ventilator. Not clear what the "lung damage" was. Maybe that was clarified in a report that I missed. Hopefully we'll hear more massively positive updates through the weekend.

The doctor said he went into ARDS. Unclear to me why that would happen but it was apparently relatively breif if his settings are down and they are waking him up and communicating. Unusual for this type of arrest but not unheard of

Might be related to pulmonary contusion post CPR, or aspiration. It’s also possible he was playing with a respiratory infection, and his arrest wasn’t due to commotio cordis after all (I think less likelly, as he was able to play part of an NFL game).

As to others’ questions about prognostication, following commands and communicating are great signs. Next up is getting off the vent.

Yeah....I felt slightly vindicated by the Docs saying that cormoddio cordis (sp?) was a diagnosis of exclusion and still not the most likely cause.

 

[Miro Z]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

 

[renesauz]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

Disagree. All the scenarios calling for a neutral ground absolutely make sense. In each case the higher seed could have been the lower seed depending on what happened in the Buff-Cinc game. They didn't alter the playoff schedule, and they didn't add playoff teams. There are NO RULES to cover this extraordinary event, and no previous precedent. There was also no perfect solution that would have completely satisfied all parties and all fans. They had NO CHOICE but to "make stuff up" (once they missed the window to play the game on Wednesday latest). More...they can come up with a rule in the off season to cover a similar future situation to keep folks like you happy should something like this happen again.

You don't have to like it, but you should certainly be able to recognize that we aren't all gonna come to a perfect agreement on it and they made a legitimate attempt to be fair. The bottom line is that if you're gonna be stuck on the fact that they didn't follow an established rule....you're not gonna be happy with pretty much anything, because there is no established rule.

 

[Miro Z]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

Disagree. All the scenarios calling for a neutral ground absolutely make sense. In each case the higher seed could have been the lower seed depending on what happened in the Buff-Cinc game. They didn't alter the playoff schedule, and they didn't add playoff teams. There are NO RULES to cover this extraordinary event, and no previous precedent. There was also no perfect solution that would have completely satisfied all parties and all fans. They had NO CHOICE but to "make stuff up" (once they missed the window to play the game on Wednesday latest). More...they can come up with a rule in the off season to cover a similar future situation to keep folks like you happy should something like this happen again.

You don't have to like it, but you should certainly be able to recognize that we aren't all gonna come to a perfect agreement on it and they made a legitimate attempt to be fair. The bottom line is that if you're gonna be stuck on the fact that they didn't follow an established rule....you're not gonna be happy with pretty much anything, because there is no established rule.

There are very clear rules already in place which called for the game to be finished within 2 days. Indeed, they arguably shouldn't even have been in that situation. It is very clear from McDermott's comments yesterday that the Bills basically refused to return to play on Monday night. At that point the officials would have been wholly within their rights to say the Bills have forfeited the game. The result would have been a Bills L, no-one would have criticised them for it, indeed they would have been praised for it, and we would have avoided this whole mess.

 

[Mitchie]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

Disagree. All the scenarios calling for a neutral ground absolutely make sense. In each case the higher seed could have been the lower seed depending on what happened in the Buff-Cinc game. They didn't alter the playoff schedule, and they didn't add playoff teams. There are NO RULES to cover this extraordinary event, and no previous precedent. There was also no perfect solution that would have completely satisfied all parties and all fans. They had NO CHOICE but to "make stuff up" (once they missed the window to play the game on Wednesday latest). More...they can come up with a rule in the off season to cover a similar future situation to keep folks like you happy should something like this happen again.

You don't have to like it, but you should certainly be able to recognize that we aren't all gonna come to a perfect agreement on it and they made a legitimate attempt to be fair. The bottom line is that if you're gonna be stuck on the fact that they didn't follow an established rule....you're not gonna be happy with pretty much anything, because there is no established rule.

There are very clear rules already in place which called for the game to be finished within 2 days. Indeed, they arguably shouldn't even have been in that situation. It is very clear from McDermott's comments yesterday that the Bills basically refused to return to play on Monday night. At that point the officials would have been wholly within their rights to say the Bills have forfeited the game. The result would have been a Bills L, no-one would have criticised them for it, indeed they would have been praised for it, and we would have avoided this whole mess.

Forfeiting the Bills after what happened would have been a terrible idea. Also sets a precedent next time someone dies or almost dies on the field the team that has happened to forfeits (assuming they don't want to play on). Nah.

 

[SoBeDad]

Are we sure the Bengals didn't agree with the BUF decision not to play?

 

[Miro Z]

Are we sure the Bengals didn't agree with the BUF decision not to play?

They did, but only after the Bills already said no. I think they would have played if the Bills had wanted to.

 

[Miro Z]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

Disagree. All the scenarios calling for a neutral ground absolutely make sense. In each case the higher seed could have been the lower seed depending on what happened in the Buff-Cinc game. They didn't alter the playoff schedule, and they didn't add playoff teams. There are NO RULES to cover this extraordinary event, and no previous precedent. There was also no perfect solution that would have completely satisfied all parties and all fans. They had NO CHOICE but to "make stuff up" (once they missed the window to play the game on Wednesday latest). More...they can come up with a rule in the off season to cover a similar future situation to keep folks like you happy should something like this happen again.

You don't have to like it, but you should certainly be able to recognize that we aren't all gonna come to a perfect agreement on it and they made a legitimate attempt to be fair. The bottom line is that if you're gonna be stuck on the fact that they didn't follow an established rule....you're not gonna be happy with pretty much anything, because there is no established rule.

There are very clear rules already in place which called for the game to be finished within 2 days. Indeed, they arguably shouldn't even have been in that situation. It is very clear from McDermott's comments yesterday that the Bills basically refused to return to play on Monday night. At that point the officials would have been wholly within their rights to say the Bills have forfeited the game. The result would have been a Bills L, no-one would have criticised them for it, indeed they would have been praised for it, and we would have avoided this whole mess.

Forfeiting the Bills after what happened would have been a terrible idea. Also sets a precedent next time someone dies or almost dies on the field the team that has happened to forfeits (assuming they don't want to play on). Nah.

Isn't the bad precedent that in the future games can be 'suspended' and create massive uncertainty for the league schedule whenever something bad happened?

Guys are carted off regularly, games would always be continued before, even the previous one where another player had a heart attack they finished the game.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, it's juat once you create a precedent it's difficult to undo it, and where do you set the bar? Let's say there's a potential Mike Utley situation, do you now suspend the game? What about a very serious concussion, what happens then? Let's say a family member of a player is shot in the future, do they still play? What about if they're in an auto accident? Before they would always play through this, now it is all in question.

 

[Mitchie]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

Disagree. All the scenarios calling for a neutral ground absolutely make sense. In each case the higher seed could have been the lower seed depending on what happened in the Buff-Cinc game. They didn't alter the playoff schedule, and they didn't add playoff teams. There are NO RULES to cover this extraordinary event, and no previous precedent. There was also no perfect solution that would have completely satisfied all parties and all fans. They had NO CHOICE but to "make stuff up" (once they missed the window to play the game on Wednesday latest). More...they can come up with a rule in the off season to cover a similar future situation to keep folks like you happy should something like this happen again.

You don't have to like it, but you should certainly be able to recognize that we aren't all gonna come to a perfect agreement on it and they made a legitimate attempt to be fair. The bottom line is that if you're gonna be stuck on the fact that they didn't follow an established rule....you're not gonna be happy with pretty much anything, because there is no established rule.

There are very clear rules already in place which called for the game to be finished within 2 days. Indeed, they arguably shouldn't even have been in that situation. It is very clear from McDermott's comments yesterday that the Bills basically refused to return to play on Monday night. At that point the officials would have been wholly within their rights to say the Bills have forfeited the game. The result would have been a Bills L, no-one would have criticised them for it, indeed they would have been praised for it, and we would have avoided this whole mess.

Forfeiting the Bills after what happened would have been a terrible idea. Also sets a precedent next time someone dies or almost dies on the field the team that has happened to forfeits (assuming they don't want to play on). Nah.

Isn't the bad precedent that in the future games can be 'suspended' and create massive uncertainty for the league schedule whenever something bad happened?

Guys are carted off regularly, games would always be continued before, even the previous one where another player had a heart attack they finished the game.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, it's juat once you create a precedent it's difficult to undo it, and where do you set the bar? Let's say there's a potential Mike Utley situation, do you now suspend the game? What about a very serious concussion, what happens then? Let's say a family member of a player is shot in the future, do they still play? What about if they're in an auto accident? Before they would always play through this, now it is all in question.

No. Have to deal with uncertainty sometimes in unique situations. Have to learn to live with some subjectivity and adjust when necessary. This was one of those times. It was clear to everyone who watched.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When an NFL game is suspended for the night, odds are unlikely it will be resumed or played again

Lesson Learned

 

[unckeyherb]

Seems like lunacy: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/could-nfl-expand-playoffs-bills-bengals-called


If it does opt to go toward the expanded playoff model, the NFL would need to have eight teams to qualify from each conference.

“Winning percentage becomes the most obvious method,” wrote NBC Sports’ Mike Florio on Thursday as he weighed a non-playoff expansion option for the league. “But there are concerns about equity, given that the winner of the Bills-Bengals game would have been in position to be one of the top seed AFC seeds.”Florio arrived on adding an eighth team to the playoff field in the AFC.

“This would eliminate the bye for the No. 1 seed,” he wrote.

Of course, it wouldn’t come without complications.

“To ensure competitive balance, there would have to be eight teams in the NFC, too,” Florio said.

I really think this is a dumb idea that reflects badly on the league. It's sufficiently dumb that there should be some professional consequences for whoever decided to put this trial balloon out there.
We've spent the last couple of days talking about how this situation will affect the Bills, Bengals, Chiefs, and Ravens. The poor Eagles were just standing there minding their own business and we're going to take their bye away? I'm sure Philly fans will graciously take that in stride, as is their MO, but this is ludicrously unfair for no reason.

They were talking about this on local sports radio yesterday. While I recognized immediately that there was absolutely no way this would happen, I still nearly drove my truck off the road in a fit of rage.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The NFL is now contorting itself into ever greater complexities with its proposed solutions. Potentially a neutral ground for the AFC Championship Game. Potentially a coin toss for the location of the Baltimore Cincy playoff game.

This is what happens when you start to make stuff up. You dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and set all kinds of bad precedents in terms of not following rules. The more you try to fix stuff with new innovations the more you mess things up.

It's kindergarten soccer. People were too busy getting mad at Skip Bayless to realize that he was boringly, uncontroversially right about the complexities of cancelling the Monday night game.

 

[Anarchy99]

When an NFL game is suspended for the night, odds are unlikely it will be resumed or played again

Lesson Learned

The whole situation went off the rails. There have been serious injuries over the years and they kept playing. The last time a game was started and not completed was 1935. Not saying they shouldn’t have stopped playing on MNF, but they should have played it out later.

One of the rules is that games need to be completed by Wednesday. They ignored that. It’s written in the rules that if there are extenuating circumstances that impact playing or completing a game, the commissioner has the authority to resolve it as he sees fit.

The are rules on standings and seedings that state winning percentage will be used for teams with uneven games played. There are league competition rules that state rules can not be changed in the middle of a season. And there are rules that all rule changes have to be voted on by all 32 franchises and require 24 votes to pass.

Bottom line, the league has a bunch of incongruous rules that conflict with each other. The entire situation was unfortunate, but they made this worse each step of the way. IMO, they should have finished the game on Wednesday. But they didn’t, and now it’s a mess. It would not surprise me if the league voted down all the proposals and the seedings revert solely to winning percentage without any other considerations.

 

[QuizGuy66]

The NFL went full NASCAR/1980s John Ziegler NHL here. Coin toss scenario that remedies to he printed rules working against Ravens gets puts in but not for the same type of scenario that works against the Bengals (no coin toss for home field in a 2/3 scenario against Buffalo or Kansas City). But still the 'benefit' of a worse draft position and tougher schedule next year.

Going by the straight black and white rules for the 2022 season in the manual isn't something that is all that favorable to the Bengals (yes they get a true #3 but had no 1 seed chance at all) but it is already there in black and white - no need to make anything up as you go

But my darker read is that the NFL maybe wants coaches to think about that when they want to the do the right thing even if it makes 'The Shield' look bad. And Zac Taylor in that moment of humanity made the Shield look bad. Can't be having that.

Anyway with that on to Cincinnati this week. No matter where it is as the Bengals like to say 'they gotta play us'

And if and when and where we play Buffalo down the line here's hoping Damar is well enough and improving enough to watch and maybe be there.

Not anything against Buffalo on my part - if my Bengals come up short winning it all I hope they would be the ones to do it instead

-QG

 

[matttyl]

With the game being called a no contest, do the stats of what actually happens on the field officially count or not? Did Burrow throw a TD in week 17 or not?

 

[ChiefD]

The Bengals also have 4 losses already. So if the Chiefs win Saturday, there isn't much the Bengals can do about that, as the Chiefs will finish with 3 losses. So at best they could have finished was as the #2 seed, and that game certainly would have impacted that.

Seems to me that this year especially, being the #2 or #3 seed is about the same other than who hosts the divisional game. But honestly, the Bills, Chiefs and Bengals are all so close that any game between any one of them is a coin flip, whether that game is at home or away.

If there was ever a year for this to happen, this is it. Each of these teams is capable of winning anywhere at any time.

 

[BobbyLayne]

With the game being called a no contest, do the stats of what actually happens on the field officially count or not? Did Burrow throw a TD in week 17 or not?

nfl.com not including stats from the partial game

 

[QuizGuy66]

With the game being called a no contest, do the stats of what actually happens on the field officially count or not? Did Burrow throw a TD in week 17 or not?

This is where I am glad I don't run one of the those huge dollar contests - was definitely thinking about that.

(resisted the urge to pro-rate the numbers and give Burrow 6.67 TDs in the game)

I guess the official NFL stats would be the tell there - if they have that TD in Burrow and Boyd's totals or not. But is there a potential field day for the legal types? Sure. Cannot imagine too many survivor contestants used that game but that is another crazy possibility

-QG