Athlete Turns Her Back on the Flag During National Anthem (2 Viewers)

[Manster]

Who cares? This is a bit of an immature response isn't it? 

This is the political equivalent of "mommy, he did it first" .  Don't like something,  don't double down and do it too.  

Just pointing out it's not exclusive......you seem to be a bit triggered

 

[KarmaPolice]

I also mostly agree with this, particularly in the broad context of “all lefties are this or that”.  Just like I disagree with all conservatives are “this or that”.

But someone who says racist #### is racist.

Someone who says “the flag doesn’t speak to me and never has” … doesn’t seem to love the flag and at best I’m sensing animosity towards it?

In our effort to not generalize we should still be able to call a spade a spade.

Correct, but my response was not to BR calling this individual out, it was to his usual grouping of "they" (let's be honest, that is usually libs) and how evidently they think America is as racist as pre-civil war?  Come on... 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Just pointing out it's not exclusive......you seem to be a bit triggered

This is also an immature response.

 

[Shula-holic]

This is important.  We need more Americans with this perspective to be vocal, and visible.  Are we a perfect nation?  Absolutely not.  Can you come here, work hard, and make yourself?  Absolutely.

People like Berry do hate America.  They hate our history.  They focus on the colonialism, slavery, etc.  That's the narrative.  We are systemically racist, and its because of judeo-Christian Europeans who built it, so it's got to come down.

imo, this is all a master plan.  The gub continues to get bigger, and have more control over our daily lives.  The masses willingly give up liberty for security.

I agree to a large part.  What year was Berry born?  What has happened to her personally to make her feel this way or is it that she was told that she should feel this way based on some history she wasn't alive to be a part of?   

This is a large danger of teaching people to hate our past or our country's values.  We've made a lot of mistakes in our past.  While it's important to recognize them and correct them, our country's history and record I'd rank pretty high on the all time list.  The fact we are living today under a flag without a swastika on it is a pretty big plus in our column too as WWII wasn't going too well without the US.  Otherwise, Berry could have tried to turn her back on that other flag, but somehow I doubt she would have that opportunity in such a scenario.

We should be able to address our problems and correct things going forward without hating our country for the warts it had, and still has.  We should love it for the good parts and the by in large good it has been and continues to be.  I agree Berry has the right to protest it, but when she takes such an act it says to me that there is some other country more worthy of her respect.  I don't see it and while she has the right to do it, I think she's quite wrong for doing it.

 

[Manster]

This is also an immature response.

This feels like a fishing expedition to which in the past I prolly woulda bit......maybe I've matured some?

 

[djmich]

Correct, but my response was not to BR calling this individual out, it was to his usual grouping of "they" (let's be honest, that is usually libs) and how evidently they think America is as racist as pre-civil war?  Come on... 

Agreed.  Not accurate and not productive.  Also glad the thread title was changed.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

maybe I've matured some?

Why would you think that?

 

[BladeRunner]

Can you explain why you would do this?

Because of all the injustice I've had to endure over my years. In 2021 America, you have no idea how bad it is.

 

[Manster]

Why would you think that?

I just told you.....pay attention homes

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I just told you.....pay attention homes

Sounds like (in your words) "you seem to be a bit triggered".

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would have bet my house that one of the first Liberal response in here would have been about their right to protest rather than condemning the act of disrespect and divisiveness.  This is why we are screwed as a country.  If we can't at least agree on our core principles that are embodied in the flag and the anthem then I really don't see it getting better anytime soon.  The ties that bind a nation together are very tenuous, especially in a multi-cultural one like ours.  But hey - not worth arguing about I guess.  It is what it is.  Acts like this will just polarize sides even further and hasten the inevitable.  Just glad that I'll be fighting beside people like Paul Chelimo and not Gwen Berry.

I think a problem is that it feels like although they respect the flag, there are different views on how to use it, respect it honor it.  

Some take the shut the F up and stand there approach.  Some take the approach that part of what it symbolizes is for the person to have the right to not not just stand there and shut the F up.  Some think it's a race to be the most patriotic and drape it over their cars and have flag swim trunks.   Not sure what the answer is, but kind of agreeing and saying I don't see it getting better in the near future.  

 

[The General]

Because of all the injustice I've had to endure over my years. In 2021 America, you have no idea how bad it is.

You would have to be much more compelling than this to educate people to your cause.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Agreed.  Not accurate and not productive.  Also glad the thread title was changed.

agree on all counts.  

 

[Manster]

Sounds like (in your words) "you seem to be a bit triggered".

Nope....I'm good

 

[GoBirds]

Lovely.  Remember the Flag Day thread when everyone got so outraged when I said that many Liberals hate the flag and what it stands for?  Here's Exhibit A.  "I don't really want to talk about the anthem because that's not important. The anthem doesn't speak for me. It never has."  If you hate the county that much, perhaps you shouldn't represent that country in the Olympics.  

Message sent: Berry turns away from flag during anthem

For people like this there’s a great part about our country, it’s very easy to leave of you don’t like it. Agree it’s weird they would want to represent a country in the olympics they don’t care for. 

 

[Sand]

  They focus on the colonialism, slavery, etc.  

So previous to the arrival of Europeans there wasn't raiding, conquering, and slavery?  That's what gets me a bit.  It's as if there is this assumption of a utopia in America or Africa prior to these events.  

We don't have a good history of these kind of things in these places, for obvious reasons, but here is a good look at the change of borders in Europe over the last 4000 years.  I doubt anyplace else in the world is any different.

 

[timschochet]

Wanting to make sure I'm understanding clearly.

You think it's a good thing for people have patriotism?

I absolutely do. Did I give you the impression otherwise? 

 

[timschochet]

Here’s my problem with disrespecting the anthem and the flag.  Symbols and traditions matter.  They always have.  That is why we have them.  And that is why I was so insistent that the confederate flags and statues come down.  They were a big middle finger to millions of Americans who suffered and sacrificed fighting evil to make our present state as good as it is today.  That needs to be honored.

In 1944 my wife’s grandfather was shot down over Germany.  He never met his son (my wife’s father).  That loss has reverberated through the generations and still indirectly affects my wife to this day.  His honor flag is proudly displayed over our mantle.  It’s all we have of him - not even a photograph.  My father fought in WWII as well.  He was one of those guys who graduated high school and enlisted the very next day.  He survived the war but gave up what should have been the best years of his life.  I don’t have his flag but every time I see a flag I think of him.

The National Anthem is a brief moment in time where those sacrifices should be honored and respected.  It’s not a place for protests, grandstanding, or displays of anger towards the country.  It’s really that simple.  I personally view it as extremely disrespectful and I always will.  Quite honestly it makes my blood boil.

This is an excellent post @ekbeats. 
 

I don’t agree with your outrage. I think it’s misplaced and unnecessary. But I admire your grandfather, what he stood for and things he (and you, and I) believe in. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

To be clear, I don't agree with what she did.  There are better ways to get a message across, but I also can't deny that this has become and effective way to get some spotlight.  

I also don't jump to the conclusion that they hate their country.  I equate it a but to parenting.  You can love your country, think its the best, but still be frustrated as hell that it's not living up to your expectations and want it to improve.  

 

[The General]

For people like this there’s a great part about our country, it’s very easy to leave of you don’t like it. Agree it’s weird they would want to represent a country in the olympics they don’t care for. 

I don’t know this woman at all, what’s she’s doing, message etc. Just read this short article.

Only thing I can think is she wants to see our country continue to improve and doesn’t want to leave.

 

[timschochet]

Just to clarify I don’t like what this girl is doing. I don’t like being disrespectful to the flag. I think I understand her, I hope I do. But I don’t approve of her. 
At the same time I’m not outraged by it and I wish other people wouldn’t be either. IMO the outrage produces no positive results. 
 

If I were to meet this girl I would congratulate her for her achievements. If she were to say to me, “I don’t believe in America”, I would smile and say “that doesn’t matter; America believes in you.” 

 

[BladeRunner]

You would have to be much more compelling than this to educate people to your cause.

Actually, no I don't.  These days, simply having any grievance should force the 99.9% of America to cater to me.

 

[timschochet]

To be clear, I don't agree with what she did.  There are better ways to get a message across, but I also can't deny that this has become and effective way to get some spotlight.  

I also don't jump to the conclusion that they hate their country.  I equate it a but to parenting.  You can love your country, think its the best, but still be frustrated as hell that it's not living up to your expectations and want it to improve.  

Maybe she hates her country (I doubt it); maybe she doesn’t. I don’t really care either way. Some of the greatest Americans in our history strongly disliked or outright hated the USA. They still effected positive change. 

 

[joffer]

“I love all the amendments, and by that I mean the 2nd”

 

[BladeRunner]

To be clear, I don't agree with what she did.  There are better ways to get a message across, but I also can't deny that this has become and effective way to get some spotlight.  

I also don't jump to the conclusion that they hate their country.  I equate it a but to parenting.  You can love your country, think its the best, but still be frustrated as hell that it's not living up to your expectations and want it to improve.  

Except that this person is a grown-### adult.  It's not cute anymore.

 

[BladeRunner]

I don’t know this woman at all, what’s she’s doing, message etc. Just read this short article.

Only thing I can think is she wants to see our country continue to improve and doesn’t want to leave.

Who cares what her message is now?  You don't get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression and her impression sucks.  Now that she's insulted at least 50% of the country, she can go pound sand for all I care.  In fact, she should leave.

 

[The General]

Actually, no I don't.  These days, simply having any grievance should force the 99.9% of America to cater to me.

Well that doesn’t seem to be the case for this women. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Well that doesn’t seem to be the case for this women. 

You seem to have run to her side and defended her and you, yourself, said you had no idea what her message is.

Why do I have to give a reason if she doesn't?  You're defending her without even knowing anything.  How come you don't give me the same benefit of the doubt?

 

[The General]

Who cares what her message is now?  You don't get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression and her impression sucks.  Now that she's insulted at least 50% of the country, she can go pound sand for all I care.  In fact, she should leave.

This response is why I said that this might not be the best course for activists to take in this setting. 

 

[ekbeats]

I agree with this 1000% percent.

My step-grandfather fought in WWII as a partisan (He was from the old "Czechoslovakia"). He was captured and tortured by the Nazis but managed to escape right before they were about to kill him.  He came to America after WWII and became a US citizen and that was one of the proudest moments of his life.  He always used to remind us how good America was to him and his family and part of the reminder was the horror stories he would tell of the Nazis and how bad it was.  He was immensely proud of me when I enlisted in the Marines in the early 90's.

The flag (and anthem) is immensely personal to me too, and when people like these spoiled athletes disrespect the flag, I wish we could buy them a one-way ticket to the country of their choice.  They don't know how good they have it.  They complain how bad America is yet reap the rewards from it.  People like her don't know REAL hardship or struggle, IMO.  YOU'RE STANDING ON AN OLYMPIC PODIUM while you disrespect the USA.  What a hypocrite and disgrace to America.

I would say much stronger words about her but I don't want to get suspended.

Thanks man.  Can’t say how much I love that post.  It’s what’s best about America, and humanity for that matter.  You and I were blessed to have such great people in our past.  We seem yo be in the minority these days, certainly in here at least.  Keep the faith brother.

 

[The General]

You seem to have run to her side and defended her and you, yourself, said you had no idea what her message is.

Why do I have to give a reason if she doesn't?  You're defending her without even knowing anything.  How come you don't give me the same benefit of the doubt?

You are incorrect. 

She can do what she wants. You can do what you want. It’s America.

 

[timschochet]

Thanks man.  Can’t say how much I love that post.  It’s what’s best about America, and humanity for that matter.  You and I were blessed to have such great people in our past.  We seem yo be in the minority these days, certainly in here at least.  Keep the faith brother.

You’re not in the minority. I don’t think there’s a single person reading this that doesn’t love America. 
My own grandparents were Holocaust survivors and then had to live under the terrible evil of Soviet Communism. They sneaked across the Czech border into the American sector of Vienna and freedom. This country, the greatest country in the history of the world, saved them and so many others. 

 

[BladeRunner]

You’re not in the minority. I don’t think there’s a single person reading this that doesn’t love America. 
My own grandparents were Holocaust survivors and then had to live under the terrible evil of Soviet Communism. They sneaked across the Czech border into the American sector of Vienna and freedom. This country, the greatest country in the history of the world, saved them and so many others. 

Thanks, Tim.  Can you now relay this message to the rest of your left of center brethren?  They appear not to have got the message, including said athlete of this forum.

 

[GoBirds]

I don’t know this woman at all, what’s she’s doing, message etc. Just read this short article.

Only thing I can think is she wants to see our country continue to improve and doesn’t want to leave.

Seems like there are more productive ways to improve things but as you say, you really have no idea what she’s doing. 

 

[GoBirds]

You seem to have run to her side and defended her and you, yourself, said you had no idea what her message is.

Why do I have to give a reason if she doesn't?  You're defending her without even knowing anything.  How come you don't give me the same benefit of the doubt?

Great post and great point. 

 

[Godsbrother]

I don’t know anything about her but it sure is a bad look.  

If hearing the anthem playing and seeing the flag is going to make you so angry then maybe competing for the US Olympic team isn’t for you.

 

[The General]

Seems like there are more productive ways to improve things but as you say, you really have no idea what she’s doing. 

She has a huge platform here with which she will get her moment to speak and reach millions of people. This happened because of this action. 

The rub is that this action leaves her a very difficult path. Takes a very special person and powerful speaker to do this effectively now.

 

[Amused to Death]

It's amazing to see conservatives once again try to claim ownership of patriotism. I have family members who sacrificed to protect our liberties and one of those is the right to protest. I also have a grandfather who was wounded and captured and spent 4 months in a German POW camp. Knowing him as well as I did, I'm confident he would be supportive of this woman's protest. He fought for and suffered for it 

It doesn't mean she hates America. Some of us love it enough to want to improve it. If it's undying fealty you want, there are other countries who require it. Thankfully America is not one of them.

 

[GoBirds]

She has a huge platform here with which she will get her moment to speak and reach millions of people. This happened because of this action. 

The rub is that this action leaves her a very difficult path. Takes a very special person and powerful speaker to do this effectively now.

You seem to be the only one moved by this performance, please keep us updated on the positive change she brings about for our country. Interesting spin. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Except that this person is a grown-### adult.  It's not cute anymore.

You missed the point. 

 

[GoBirds]

I don’t know anything about her but it sure is a bad look.  

If hearing the anthem playing and seeing the flag is going to make you so angry then maybe competing for the US Olympic team isn’t for you.

We don’t agree often but I completely agree with you here. 

 

[djmich]

There are better ways to get a message across, but I also can't deny that this has become and effective way to get some spotlight.  

Is it though...to what end?

If the purpose is to bring change (as she states), then I can't imagine she is winning over anybody other than people who already agree with her.  If anything she is pissing off people who may otherwise agree with her.

If the objective is to get sponsorships by woke corporates, this is probably a pretty good idea.

So is she just young and dumb and going about things in a ineffective fashion or is this a shrewd but cynical financially motivated move.  

 

[The General]

You seem to be the only one moved by this performance, please keep us updated on the positive change she brings about for our country. Interesting spin. 

I haven’t said I was moved by this, I haven’t defended her position. I am unaware of what her grievances are. 

I have said that in my view it’s very unlikely that this is effective way to go about spreading your word but who knows maybe she is a dynamic speaker, perhaps she has a powerful story that will affect positive change. 

I do also believe that people can love the country, want to see it improve, think it is a great nation but flaws and can protest in any number of ways. 

 

[ekbeats]

This is an excellent post @ekbeats. 
 

I don’t agree with your outrage. I think it’s misplaced and unnecessary. But I admire your grandfather, what he stood for and things he (and you, and I) believe in. 

Appreciate that tim.  Btw as much as I disagree with you I’ve never doubted your patriotism. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Is it though...to what end?

If the purpose is to bring change (as she states), then I can't imagine she is winning over anybody other than people who already agree with her.  If anything she is pissing off people who may otherwise agree with her.

If the objective is to get sponsorships by woke corporates, this is probably a pretty good idea.

So is she just young and dumb and going about things in a ineffective fashion or is this a shrewd but cynical financially motivated move.  

I guess spotlight <> progress or change.  She is getting a ton of attention which was more my point.  

Honestly, for the people who don't agree with her, was there anything for her to do? I'd imagine anything she says about politics will be met with the usual "damn entitled athletes, just shut up and play" type of posts.  

I don't know, I can't Honestly say I know how effective past protests like this have brought on change the way people intended.  

 

[ekbeats]

What does the flag mean to you?  Like for me, a core principle is strong belief in the idea of freedom of expression.  Even when I don’t agree with what is being expressed.  Do you share this belief?  It’s right at the top for me.  

Of course I agree with the 1st amendment.  I fight for it daily in here and elsewhere.  That’s not the issue here.  The issue here is disrespect.  You don’t always have to defend people’s right to express themselves you know.  When it comes to anthem or flag protests that’s always the Liberal go to.  Every time.  It’s the most liked post in this thread. Which says a lot.  When those idiot racists had their tiki torch KKK rally at Charlottesville I didn’t see a lot of people in here defending their right to express themselves.  I saw blanket condemnation - as it should be.  And that’s what we should see in any instance of disrespect towards people.

 

[Amused to Death]

Of course I agree with the 1st amendment.  I fight for it daily in here and elsewhere.  That’s not the issue here.  The issue here is disrespect.  You don’t always have to defend people’s right to express themselves you know.  When it comes to anthem or flag protests that’s always the Liberal go to.  Every time.  It’s the most liked post in this thread. Which says a lot.  When those idiot racists had their tiki torch KKK rally at Charlottesville I didn’t see a lot of people in here defending their right to express themselves.  I saw blanket condemnation - as it should be.  And that’s what we should see in any instance of disrespect towards people.

Her right to free speech and protest does not take away your right to criticize her.

America's great!

 

[BladeRunner]

Her right to free speech and protest does not take away your right to criticize her.

America's great!

Boy, you missed his point.

 

[dkp993]

When those idiot racists had their tiki torch KKK rally at Charlottesville I didn’t see a lot of people in here defending their right to express themselves.  I saw blanket condemnation - as it should be.  And that’s what we should see in any instance of disrespect towards people.

Interesting.  I see it as 2 separate things. Ones feeling about the/an action and the right to do it.  The KKK in your example should be condemned, and often are.  But they still have the right to express themselves.  It’s the same her with her.  She should be condemned, and is being.  But she should have also have the right.  

 

[ekbeats]

You’re not in the minority. I don’t think there’s a single person reading this that doesn’t love America. 
My own grandparents were Holocaust survivors and then had to live under the terrible evil of Soviet Communism. They sneaked across the Czech border into the American sector of Vienna and freedom. This country, the greatest country in the history of the world, saved them and so many others. 

Wow - never knew that tim.  That’s an incredible story.  Like I said, I have no doubt your intentions are good and you love this country.  Others in here… not so much.