Kev4029
Footballguy
Me too - I'll start judging in the 90s with players I actually watched in real life. Excited to tell the judges how uninformed they are about the greatness of my 60s and 70s teams.
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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
Doug B
Footballguy
Thought this crew would get a kick out of this article, especially after the discussion about comparisons across eras.
High school kid challenges retired NBA player, and it goes exactly how you'd expect (with video)
Darrell Griffith was a sought-after high-school junior in December 1974. Griffith is Hagan's height and they were close in weight (Hagan a little heavier). Would 43-year-old Hagan, four years removed from the ABA, have smoked 16-year-old Darrell Griffith in a game of one-on-one?
Of course, I don't know if the high-school kid that Scalabrine played was actually a top-level high-school player or not. Flip side -- Scalabrine was not an NBA star, though even to make it to the league and have an 11-year career puts you in elite company.
High school kid challenges retired NBA player, and it goes exactly how you'd expect (with video)
This makes me think. One of my 60s guys, Cliff Hagan, debuted with the St. Louis Hawks in 1956 and retired with the ABA's Dallas Chapparals in 1970. He turned 43 in December 1974.
Darrell Griffith was a sought-after high-school junior in December 1974. Griffith is Hagan's height and they were close in weight (Hagan a little heavier). Would 43-year-old Hagan, four years removed from the ABA, have smoked 16-year-old Darrell Griffith in a game of one-on-one?
Of course, I don't know if the high-school kid that Scalabrine played was actually a top-level high-school player or not. Flip side -- Scalabrine was not an NBA star, though even to make it to the league and have an 11-year career puts you in elite company.
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Zegras11
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
And then extending this a little further ... how does 43-year-old Darrell Griffith (ten years removed from the NBA) fare against 17-year-old Deron Williams in a one-one-game played in summer 2001? Williams is one inch shorter and a few pounds heavier than Griffith.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
43 year old Darrell would kill em
Dr Dunkenstein had a 48 inch vertical. He once jumped over a Volkswagen Beetle. He would kill that old man.
I’m the same age as John Stockton, whom some people think I resemble (first weekend in NYC 22 years ago, two Asian businessmen tried to get my autograph in a club.)
Yesterday I had to stop twice on my way home from the grocery store to rest. It’s a 7 block trek. Old people ain’t #### bro.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Can’t help but think of the picture of 56 year old Lenny Kravitz that went around the internet this last week. Some people age better than others.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
People told me for years I looked 10, 15 years younger. New acquaintances were always surprised when I told them my age.
I miss hearing that.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I was mistaken by a substitute security guard a couple weeks ago for a HS student. It made my week. Although the guy was an ### and treated me like dirt until he realized I worked there.People told me for years I looked 10, 15 years younger. New acquaintances were always surprised when I told them my age.
I miss hearing that.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
scoobus
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
So, to give a little bit of perspective about the talent gaps from level to level in hoops....
I played college ball at the NAIA level and started for two years on a top 20 team. I was a top local HS player, but never made all-state. We have a local tournament called the Bass Pro Tournament of Champions that we played in my senior year where 2 local teams play against some of the best HS teams in the country. Every year, a couple of future NBA players are in the tourney. Recently, Darius Garland, Marvin Bagley & Jayson Tatum.
When I played in it, a sophomore Lamar Odom was the MVP. He was KILLING everyone. I mean dunking, driving around, rebounding...it was a man amongst boys and he was only like 16 yrs old. We missed playing them by 3 pts (I missed a 3 at the buzzer), but I got to meet him and he was just a monster compared to my skinny 6'2" white ###.
Fast forward to this season and there is a local kid named Aminu Mohammed. Kid is going to Georgetown and is a top 20 recruit in his class. I've officiated his games 3-4 times over the last few years and he is the best basketball player I've seen up close. He will likely make it to the NBA, but I'm not sure if he'll be good or just a guy. Right now, he is immediately noticeable the second you see him on the court. Most powerful and explosive jumper I've ever seen and he can handle the ball and shoot. I think he is listed at 6'4", but plays like 6'10". He is supposed listed at SG but plays everywhere.
I said all of that to say, that the difference between the NBA players and good HS players is immense. Like a gap as wide as the Grand Canyon. There is simply no comparison and to even make the league today is an amazing feat, not to mention being considered a good NBA player. I'm not sure exactly when that gap became a thing (did Mikan/Cousy/Sharman/Pettit stand out that much?), but I know it has been there since the mid 90's. The NBA requires a special level of freakiness that just is very, very, very rare.
I played college ball at the NAIA level and started for two years on a top 20 team. I was a top local HS player, but never made all-state. We have a local tournament called the Bass Pro Tournament of Champions that we played in my senior year where 2 local teams play against some of the best HS teams in the country. Every year, a couple of future NBA players are in the tourney. Recently, Darius Garland, Marvin Bagley & Jayson Tatum.
When I played in it, a sophomore Lamar Odom was the MVP. He was KILLING everyone. I mean dunking, driving around, rebounding...it was a man amongst boys and he was only like 16 yrs old. We missed playing them by 3 pts (I missed a 3 at the buzzer), but I got to meet him and he was just a monster compared to my skinny 6'2" white ###.
Fast forward to this season and there is a local kid named Aminu Mohammed. Kid is going to Georgetown and is a top 20 recruit in his class. I've officiated his games 3-4 times over the last few years and he is the best basketball player I've seen up close. He will likely make it to the NBA, but I'm not sure if he'll be good or just a guy. Right now, he is immediately noticeable the second you see him on the court. Most powerful and explosive jumper I've ever seen and he can handle the ball and shoot. I think he is listed at 6'4", but plays like 6'10". He is supposed listed at SG but plays everywhere.
I said all of that to say, that the difference between the NBA players and good HS players is immense. Like a gap as wide as the Grand Canyon. There is simply no comparison and to even make the league today is an amazing feat, not to mention being considered a good NBA player. I'm not sure exactly when that gap became a thing (did Mikan/Cousy/Sharman/Pettit stand out that much?), but I know it has been there since the mid 90's. The NBA requires a special level of freakiness that just is very, very, very rare.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i cant go to the beach anymore cuz, before i even spread out my towel, i'm immediately surrounded by marine biologists. makes me so mad i go straight to a deli and send back the soup...
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I remember seeing Chris Weber play when I was in junior high (he was a few years ahead) and the hype was incredible. I never went to our HS games but our junior high coach insisted on everyone one of us going. He was like “you may never get a chance like this again to see a future NBA star so up close.” I wondered how good could some HS kid be and how could you really say he was going to be in the NBA yet alone a star. Our gym had never been more packed for a game in my life and it took all of 2 minutes before you understood why. The combination of size, quickness, touch, skill was just unreal. It wasn’t just the gigantic thundering windmill dunks or half court oops he put down but how effortlessly he could dribble around everyone, cover the whole court in just a few steps, seemingly jump 3 times for a rebound in the time anyone else could jump once, pass to players that didn’t even look open and leave them in perfect scoring position. It was an incredible experience. I swear he could palm the ball with two fingers and his two fingers were stronger on the ball than our best players two whole hands.
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The closest I have to that is that I played against Don MacLean in high school. He was in our league. He was definitely head and shoulders above everyone (some of that was literal) and at the time he had a scholarship to go to UCLA. We hung in there against them and almost won a couple times (played 2 or 3 times in league play). Everyone knew he was better than everyone else but I had no idea if he was good enough to go to the NBA. He had a solid NBA career.Jayrod said:
Now compare that to Tracey Murray who I say play in high school (never played against him though) and he was much more noticeable on the court with his game and you knew he was going to go to the NBA. He had all the skills and had a smoothness that other's just didn't have.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I also watched Trey Young play a HS game in town his senior year. I think he had 45 pts and was double teamed the entire game. The final score was like 120-105.
He dribbled by, around and through the defense at will and hit several very deep threes.
Once again, a guy who just stood out as from a different planet.
He dribbled by, around and through the defense at will and hit several very deep threes.
Once again, a guy who just stood out as from a different planet.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
Similarly, played on a team with Perry Jones for a time in High School, in Primetime/AAU tourneys and such, where I was a fantastic 9th man (clapping, high fives all around, jokes in the huddle - a legit asset). Our coach would get so frustrated when we'd be down like 5 midway through the 2nd quarter and everyone knew Perry was just out there.
He'd yell at him, we'd all sit back and listen. Then for the next 3-5 minutes Perry would inevitably get like 4 blocks, a couple steals, a few dunks, execute a couple moves that left the defense looking clueless, and we'd be up like 10 at half. Then Perry would stop trying again and we'd often hold the lead and win.
All that to say, against elite competition, even the guys who get to the NBA and totally wash out jump out at you as obviously far and away better than everyone else, even though all those other people are awesome.
He'd yell at him, we'd all sit back and listen. Then for the next 3-5 minutes Perry would inevitably get like 4 blocks, a couple steals, a few dunks, execute a couple moves that left the defense looking clueless, and we'd be up like 10 at half. Then Perry would stop trying again and we'd often hold the lead and win.
All that to say, against elite competition, even the guys who get to the NBA and totally wash out jump out at you as obviously far and away better than everyone else, even though all those other people are awesome.
Kev4029
Footballguy
We had an ex-NBA player that would show up to my HS BB open gym (early 00s) from time to time, Mike Higgins. He only had a small cup of coffee in the league and I think he was a dude pretty much at the end of his unillustrious overseas career in his late 30s when he would stop by, but I think he would have been akin to a White Mamba type - undersized and scrappy big who had a little bit of ball skills.Jayrod said:
Obviously, he was on auto pilot playing a bunch of 15-18 year olds at a #### HS, but the thing that stood out is how much space he could cover closing out. Of course he was bigger, stronger, had a better shot, and could dunk on all of us, but that part was unsurprising - the defense kinda blew me away. He could guard the 3 point line from the key.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Had a similar experience with Brad Holland (UCLA and Lakers)
We was in our league at Cresenta Valley High. He packed our stands one night with a lot of college scouts and coaches. I was JV that year.
Scored 56. Was 20-26 on FG's and 16-17 FT's. All but 2-3 of his FG's were from well beyond the 3-point line that didn't exist at the time. Most of them half-cork screw jump shots while being double teamed. Most amazing outside shooting I've ever seen until Curry.
The next year, playing the same team, I got burnt by Tom Holmoe (Cal, SF 49'ers, BYU AD) for 38 points. It was all down hill after that. LOL.
We was in our league at Cresenta Valley High. He packed our stands one night with a lot of college scouts and coaches. I was JV that year.
Scored 56. Was 20-26 on FG's and 16-17 FT's. All but 2-3 of his FG's were from well beyond the 3-point line that didn't exist at the time. Most of them half-cork screw jump shots while being double teamed. Most amazing outside shooting I've ever seen until Curry.
The next year, playing the same team, I got burnt by Tom Holmoe (Cal, SF 49'ers, BYU AD) for 38 points. It was all down hill after that. LOL.
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Doug B
Footballguy
I knew a guy in college who played against Chris Webber at a HS all-star tournament. The guy I knew was an all-state HS basketball player South Dakota (not a basketball hotbed, but still). He told stories of how guys would get into a defensive crouch against Webber, and Webber would just take a step and jump over them.Ilov80s said:
Doug B
Footballguy
In the early 90s summers, Avery Johnson and Robert Pack used to show up at this gym (Gretna, LA, suburban N.O.) from time to time. They'd split up and play pick up games with the local teenagers.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Judging sucks.
Forget that somehow, and I’ve judged in quite a few Timmay drafts (it’s basically how I got sucked out TSP years ago.)
I’ve ranked the 75 players 1947-69 and so I have a rough idea of how it will shake out, now I’m kind of doing a team Elo ranking to see if I agree with the raw results.
Also, deadlines suck.
Forget that somehow, and I’ve judged in quite a few Timmay drafts (it’s basically how I got sucked out TSP years ago.)
I’ve ranked the 75 players 1947-69 and so I have a rough idea of how it will shake out, now I’m kind of doing a team Elo ranking to see if I agree with the raw results.
Also, deadlines suck.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Whoa, I played basketball at CV. I played against Holland and Holmoe a couple times in our annual alumni games, but they were before my time (I was mid-late 80s).
What school did you go to? (You can PM if you don’t want to share)
Yo Mama
Footballguy
My claim to fame opponent wise:
- From junior high into high school I played against Don MacLean a bunch of times (school and club ball). For some reason I always had to try guard him.
- I played against Stacey Augmon in a Pasadena spring league one year (he was a senior, I was a sophomore). His high school always had all kinds of D1 players).
- Harold Miner dunked on me three times in a CIF playoff game (he was the top sophomore in the state, I was a junior)
- From junior high into high school I played against Don MacLean a bunch of times (school and club ball). For some reason I always had to try guard him.
- I played against Stacey Augmon in a Pasadena spring league one year (he was a senior, I was a sophomore). His high school always had all kinds of D1 players).
- Harold Miner dunked on me three times in a CIF playoff game (he was the top sophomore in the state, I was a junior)
Yo Mama
Footballguy
I can wait if you need more timeJudging sucks.
Forget that somehow, and I’ve judged in quite a few Timmay drafts (it’s basically how I got sucked out TSP years ago.)
I’ve ranked the 75 players 1947-69 and so I have a rough idea of how it will shake out, now I’m kind of doing a team Elo ranking to see if I agree with the raw results.
Also, deadlines suck.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Spent last 2.5 years at Burbank. Made Edison High Freshman team in HB. Moved to SD, two weeks before school started and played two months at Madision HS in SD, Sophomore year, before moving to Burbank after Thanksgiving.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Nice, we played you guys all the time and played in the Burbank summer league every year.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, I think Simmons said this but if we replayed Webber's career 1000 times, I think the career he ended up with was the absolute worst possible outcome. For how good he was, crazy that it is considered underperforming.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
Chachi from Happy Days and a bunch of his entourage / body guards used to play pickup games at my high school gym at nights. He sucked and I kicked his butt all the time. He’d get pissed when I would always refer to him as Chachi “I got Chachi!” Not surprised he’s still such an idiot today.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i think that happened to great college 4s significantly more than other positions. the CWebs and DColemans and such. thankless work in the packed-in days. it's probably what drove the Mailman up high to deliver Stockton some picks.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Been a couple years since anything other than just shooting around. I used to play after school sometimes with the HS kids at open gym but I got sick of their fouling, whining, ball hogging and sloppy attempts to be Curry or Kyrie. These weren’t the kids who usually played on the basketball teams, just kids who would stay after school to play.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
played 3x/wk to my middle 40s, then got my shoulder pulled out of its socket and it never knit back in. been years since my elbow's been above my shoulder. even more than quitting stimulants or cigarettes, that's the day i started getting fat
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
The best HS hoops player I ever saw in person was Quintin Dailey out of Cardinal Gibbons in Baltimore. He was playing in a Christmas tourney in Annapolis. Our team - who would go on to the state championship Final Four that year - wasn't, but we went to watch him. The field was loaded with future D1 players, but Dailey was a wrecking machine. No one could cover him. He went on to San Francisco for college and the Bulls in the NBA, but I think health-related issues messed up his potential.
I stole the ball from Johnny Dawkins once in a pick up game. For the rest of the game, he had me in the fetal position for that indignity. He either blocked every shot or stole every pass/dribble I made from then on.
I stole the ball from Johnny Dawkins once in a pick up game. For the rest of the game, he had me in the fetal position for that indignity. He either blocked every shot or stole every pass/dribble I made from then on.
Same story for me......i was playing a lot into my early 40's and then tore my achilles playing at lunch from work. After that I lost my routine and started packing on the lbs. Don't tear your achilles.....it sucks!
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Jayrod said:
I may have told this story in here or the NBA thread but i'm going to tell it again anyway.
My dad was a middle school teacher, and happened to teach Khalid El-Amin. You remember, won the NCAA championship at UCONN, played in the NBA with teh Bulls for bit before going overseas. That guy. He was playing varsity in 8th grade. That same year I was starting, winning team MVP, and making All-Conference in a suburban (read: almost all white) league. Since my dad had access to the gym at his school whenever he wanted and I was a gym rat I would accompany him down there when we both had days off and shoot around.
There were always enough kids there for pick up games, and one day Khalid comes in. 8th grader, wearing jeans falling off his ### and a zip up coat vs. me, a senior in his prime not only properly dressed for basketball but properly warmed up as well. This was going to be fun, right?
The best way I can describe it is that quote from Top Gun when one of the pilots says "Where'd he go" and the other "goes where'd who go?" He was that fast. He destroyed me that day. I got a few stops and made a few buckets, but it was clear the talent gap was absolutely enormous.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I've been playing a lot of one on one vs my 14 yr old son, but he can't really compete with me yet. I go the the gym and play him or just shoot around 2-3 times per week as my warm up exercise before lifting weights. I can't just goof off, though. My training was so hard wired that I still do shooting drills even when I'm all by myself in the gym. It is a great workout and sure beats a treadmill or elliptical machine.
Other than that, I haven't played a pickup game against adults since last March. Everything got shut down and my group of guys haven't re-organized since. I've thought about making some calls to check on interest for a week from Saturday. Honestly, I miss it a ton.
EYLive
Footballguy
I have no stories of playing with any real hoopers. The closest thing was I was in a basketball clinic during summer school when I was around 11 years old. Most of us kids in the clinic were mediocre, but one kid who I later learned was Schea Cotton, was blasting through all the drills without barely trying. He was about my height at the time (5'4" maybe a bit taller) and could grab the rim. He didn't stay around to play any games with us.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i once helped Dale Davis extend his credit line at the Flamingo....
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Nope. A man’s got to know his limitations.
I gave it up after 8th grade. In freshman football I was the smallest kid in my league - 4’11, 90 pounds, DB. Once got run over by John Williams, which was the last tackle I ever made (not to be confused with John L Williams).
Played baseball 9 years, AS in Little League, Pony League, Lansing Journal Capital City All Area Team.
We had a few guys drafted by MLB and the NFL but I don’t recall anyone from mid-Michigan playing in the NBA besides Chris Kaman (well after my time.) My only noteworthy moments on a court - besides a few concussions, I ran into brick walls sometimes - was a buzzer beater in 8th grade to win a game.
Hard to fathom now, but the Lions used to have a barnstorming team in the off-season. They’d go all around the state in the winter playing charity games against alumni and teachers teams. Lem Barney, Charlie Sanders, Wayne Walker, Mel Farr, Altie Taylor, Rocky Freitas, Larry Hand...one year Rudy Redmond (CB) pulled me out of the front row of the stands to shoot a free throw in the middle of the game. I was 10 or 11, I was so nervous O threw up an air ball. They were trying to get me to move to the bottom of the dotted line, which pissed me off. Made the second FT on a bank shot. They beat the teachers by one point, which I of course attributed to my clutch effort.
timschochet
Footballguy
So here’s my basketball story.
I’m 9 years old and on some team my dad is coaching. We’re the worst team in the league; we totally suck. We’re playing the second worst team and we’re losing 40-0 in the 2nd half. We haven’t scored a basket. And I’m on the bench, my dad won’t let me in. He didn’t let me play a minute of the game, I wasn’t good enough.
This memory has stuck with me.
I’m 9 years old and on some team my dad is coaching. We’re the worst team in the league; we totally suck. We’re playing the second worst team and we’re losing 40-0 in the 2nd half. We haven’t scored a basket. And I’m on the bench, my dad won’t let me in. He didn’t let me play a minute of the game, I wasn’t good enough.
This memory has stuck with me.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
They didn’t even have minimum play rules back then?
Sucks being a coaches kid (I tell my kids this all the time since I coached all their teams up until high school).
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
I know I didn't participate in the draft but I've been lurking a lot and basketball was my first love; plus, I got to live in 'interesting' times near the University of Maryland during the Lefty Driesell years.
I went to his camp two or three years, including the year he got the '76 Olympic team to play an exhibition game the first night of camp, and Len Elmore was the coach of the team I was put on. To this day, I regret not ever writing him any fan mail. He was so generous with all the kids and parents, you couldn't help but root for him to recover from his broken leg and make a name for himself in the ABA with the Pacers. But that's not the story I came here to post.
Long after my regular schoolyard playing days had ended and around the time I got married, one of the guys I played pick-up ball with at my church was the chaplain for the Washington Bullets. This was around the time they had Brent Price, and he was a 'big-time' believer, so he came out to play with us one night. The games were played on a half-court with baskets on the sides so that it was a full court without all that pesky running. Anyway, I was only on his team once. He fed me a perfect pass the only time I shook my man and broke to the basket. I actually scored and as we went back to play defense, I pointed to him as a way of thanking him for the pass. His face literally looked like this:
.
I went to his camp two or three years, including the year he got the '76 Olympic team to play an exhibition game the first night of camp, and Len Elmore was the coach of the team I was put on. To this day, I regret not ever writing him any fan mail. He was so generous with all the kids and parents, you couldn't help but root for him to recover from his broken leg and make a name for himself in the ABA with the Pacers. But that's not the story I came here to post.
Long after my regular schoolyard playing days had ended and around the time I got married, one of the guys I played pick-up ball with at my church was the chaplain for the Washington Bullets. This was around the time they had Brent Price, and he was a 'big-time' believer, so he came out to play with us one night. The games were played on a half-court with baskets on the sides so that it was a full court without all that pesky running. Anyway, I was only on his team once. He fed me a perfect pass the only time I shook my man and broke to the basket. I actually scored and as we went back to play defense, I pointed to him as a way of thanking him for the pass. His face literally looked like this:
.
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