Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020: Semifinalists (1 Viewer)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Given that Atwater has been a Semifinalist 9 times and a Finalist twice (2016 and 2019), that probably eliminates him as a 100% lock.
This is the first time Young has been a Semifinalist (he retired in 2007), so not sure how much backing he might have.

True. 

that said, if they finna put ElI Manning in Canton in 5 years, this entire list should be enshrined. Just sayin - the bar’s about to be lowered. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Also, Art Modell has no business in any HOF. I'm more against Modell, than I am in favor of anyone. 

couldn’t agree more. The only word that comes to mind is conniving. Total screw job to the fans of Cleveland. They’ve been cursed ever since. 

 

[Tau837]

My case against Bruce is similar to my case against Gore. There are a whole lot of empty calorie seasons tacked on at the end, but I never felt Bruce was a top WR, and the lack of 1st team all-pros(in addition to only 4 pro bowls) tends to back that up. 

 It also doesn't help that Torry Holt came in and by year 2 was better than Bruce. I'd vote against both Rams WR's, but I think Holt was the better of the 2. 

Bruce was a key piece of the greatest show on turf, but I'd probably call him the 5th most important part behind Faulk, Pace, Warner, and eventually Holt.

His amazing play in the Super Bowl was great, but not enough for me. I know Lynn Swann is in for basically just his Super Bowl performance, but I dislike the idea of using the logic of, "well this guy made it, so why not this guy?" just seems to compound existing mistakes.

We have had this conversation, but I will keep posting my counter to your view on Bruce until he gets in.

Bruce's HOF resume consists of the following:

• Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 119 receptions (still 14th highest single season total of all time), 1781 receiving yards (still 5th highest single season total of all time), and 13 TDs... with Chris Miller and Mark Rypien at QB
  
• Had 7 other 1000 yard seasons, including seasons with 1471, 1338, and 1292 yards
  
• Caught the game winning TD with less than 2 minutes remaining in the Super Bowl
  
• Compiled statistics:
  
  Currently #13 all time in receptions; was #5 all time when he retired in 2009
  
• Currently #5 in receiving yards; was #2 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #12 in receiving TDs; was #8 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #19 all time in YFS; was #14 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #5 among WRs in Approximate Value
  

[*]Rate statistics:

• 
  Currently #10 all time in yards/touch; was #7 all time when he retired
  
• Tied for #11 among WRs in seasons with 10+ Approximate Value
  
  Tied with 5 others; of the top 16, 10 are HOFers, and the others besides Bruce are Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, and Reggie Wayne
  

[*]Many of these accomplishments came before the passing game explosion that has resulted in much higher passing totals in the NFL today

Gore's resume does not come close to comparing to this, and to compare Bruce to Gore is a slight to Bruce.

I think this is the year Bruce makes it.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

We have had this conversation, but I will keep posting my counter to your view on Bruce until he gets in.

Bruce's HOF resume consists of the following:

• Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 119 receptions (still 14th highest single season total of all time), 1781 receiving yards (still 5th highest single season total of all time), and 13 TDs... with Chris Miller and Mark Rypien at QB
  
• Had 7 other 1000 yard seasons, including seasons with 1471, 1338, and 1292 yards
  
• Caught the game winning TD with less than 2 minutes remaining in the Super Bowl
  
• Compiled statistics:
  
  Currently #13 all time in receptions; was #5 all time when he retired in 2009
  
• Currently #5 in receiving yards; was #2 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #12 in receiving TDs; was #8 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #19 all time in YFS; was #14 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #5 among WRs in Approximate Value
  

[*]Rate statistics:

• 
  Currently #10 all time in yards/touch; was #7 all time when he retired
  
• Tied for #11 among WRs in seasons with 10+ Approximate Value
  
  Tied with 5 others; of the top 16, 10 are HOFers, and the others besides Bruce are Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, and Reggie Wayne
  

[*]Many of these accomplishments came before the passing game explosion that has resulted in much higher passing totals in the NFL today

Gore's resume does not come close to comparing to this, and to compare Bruce to Gore is a slight to Bruce.

I think this is the year Bruce makes it.

I’m ok with Isaac Bruce in the HOF. If Tim Brown (a much better comp) is in, Bruce should be as well. He did lead the league & dominated his peers. His 119 catch, 1700+ yard season was incredible. 

And not only did he play a long time, he produced at a consistently high level. 

I've got no beef with Bruce on this list. 

 

[Tau837]

Won't disagree with you regarding the WRs.  Although a lot of us still hold Fitz in high regard.  

Maybe I'm being inconsistent, or maybe just drawing a line in the Sand, but I'd put Gore in but not Bruce. Part of that is giving RBs more credit for longevity, part of it is that Bruce wasn't a top 3 player on his own team most of his career, partly that Gore is #4 in a meaningful category (total yards from scrimmage) and unlikely to fall any time soon, while Bruce is #19.  

I just posted Bruce's resume, and IMO Gore's does not compare favorably.

 

[Tau837]

Ignoring that they didn't play in the same era / at the same time, here are each player's best 5 seasons in each category added together . . .

Well, ignoring that they didn't play in the same era pretty much negates any meaningful comparison, so what's the point?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Well, ignoring that they didn't play in the same era pretty much negates any meaningful comparison, so what's the point?

Didn’t you just compare a running back to a wide receiver? 

(just playing around) 

any comparison is worth making - some are just more effective. 

 

[Tau837]

The finalists the special Class of 2020 Centennial Slate Finalists has been released . . .

COACHES:
Don Coryell
Bill Cowher
Tom Flores
Mike Holmgren
Jimmy Johnson
Buddy Parker
Dan Reeves
**** Vermeil

PLAYERS:
Cliff Branch
Harold Carmichael
Jim Covert
Roger Craig
Bobby Dillon
LaVern Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Harris
Winston Hill
Cecil Isabell
Vernie Lewellan
Tommy Nobis
Drew Pearson
Donnie Shell
Dike Slater
Mac Speedie
Ed Sprinkle
Al Wistert

CONTRIBUTORS:
Bud Adams
Ralph Hay
Frank "Bucko" Kilroy
Art McNally
Art Modell
Clint Murchison
Steve Sabol
Seymour Siwoff
Paul Tagliabue
George Young

I have to assume that the max number of 15 of these guys will be elected. Under that assumption:

• Coryell should be a lock. IMO it is a travesty that he has not made it before now.
  
• Holmgren would be next on my list from the coaches. He took two different franchises to the Super Bowl, and Matt Hasselbeck was his QB for one of those. He was also OC for the 1989 49ers, when they won the Super Bowl and had the #1 offense in yards and points.
  
• Agree with @travdogg on Hay and Sabol.
  
• Also think Tagliabue should make it.
  

Beyond those guys, I don't find the list to be very compelling, and I think it will somewhat water down the HOF to induct 10 more. Admittedly, I don't know much about several of these older candidates. So I hope the other 10 choices are focused on players from pre-modern era and non-players.

 

[Tau837]

Didn’t you just compare a running back to a wide receiver? 

(just playing around) 

any comparison is worth making - some are just more effective. 

Just saying that comparing the best 5 seasons of Sterling Sharpe and Antonio Brown or Larry Fitzgerald in accumulated statistics is apples to oranges and thus not useful.

My comparison of Bruce to Gore was not a direct comparison of accumulated statistics. Not the same thing.

 

[Tau837]

From the list of 25 semifinalists, these guys are in my first tier:

• Ronde Barber
  
• Tony Boselli
  
• Isaac Bruce
  
• Alan Faneca
  
• Torry Holt
  
• Troy Polamalu
  
• Zach Thomas
  

Limited to 5, I would let Faneca and Holt slide to next year.

Surprised to see multiple people are advocating for Mills. I don't see it.

I should also say I think Atwater and Butler should make it, but both have been eligible for so long, I think it will be via the veterans committee. Too bad those two are not part of the 100th anniversary list instead of the regular semifinalist list.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Just saying that comparing the best 5 seasons of Sterling Sharpe and Antonio Brown or Larry Fitzgerald in accumulated statistics is apples to oranges and thus not useful.

My comparison of Bruce to Gore was not a direct comparison of accumulated statistics. Not the same thing.

I caught that. And I largely agree - i believe we can only compare WR to each other pre-push-out rule & post-push-out rule. 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Surprised to see multiple people are advocating for Mills. I don't see it.

I was one of those. I don't have a numbers-based case for him. He just seemed like a great player to me. Maybe the fact that he's no longer with us colors my thinking

 

[travdogg]

We have had this conversation, but I will keep posting my counter to your view on Bruce until he gets in.

Bruce's HOF resume consists of the following:

• Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 119 receptions (still 14th highest single season total of all time), 1781 receiving yards (still 5th highest single season total of all time), and 13 TDs... with Chris Miller and Mark Rypien at QB
  
• Had 7 other 1000 yard seasons, including seasons with 1471, 1338, and 1292 yards
  
• Caught the game winning TD with less than 2 minutes remaining in the Super Bowl
  
• Compiled statistics:
  
  Currently #13 all time in receptions; was #5 all time when he retired in 2009
  
• Currently #5 in receiving yards; was #2 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #12 in receiving TDs; was #8 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #19 all time in YFS; was #14 all time when he retired
  
• Currently #5 among WRs in Approximate Value
  

[*]Rate statistics:

• 
  Currently #10 all time in yards/touch; was #7 all time when he retired
  
• Tied for #11 among WRs in seasons with 10+ Approximate Value
  
  Tied with 5 others; of the top 16, 10 are HOFers, and the others besides Bruce are Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, and Reggie Wayne
  

[*]Many of these accomplishments came before the passing game explosion that has resulted in much higher passing totals in the NFL today

Gore's resume does not come close to comparing to this, and to compare Bruce to Gore is a slight to Bruce.

I think this is the year Bruce makes it.

Yep, I will always be making cases against Bruce, and Holt for that matter. The Rams who should be in, Warner, Faulk, Pace, are in, in my opinion. Frankly, Warner was questionable in my eyes. 

Do you consider Jimmy Smith or Rod Smith HOF'ers? Other than the game winning TD in the final 2 minutes, they have pretty similar careers to Bruce. 

I actually have them rated as Jimmy>Bruce>Rod. 

I'm not sure approximate value is a valuable tool. Seems to grossly overvalue longevity. I mean, it ranks Frank Gore and Warrick Dunn over Jim Brown and OJ Simpson. 

 

[az_prof]

My top nominees:

John Lynch--he was the best player on a very good Tampa D.  He had over a 1000 tackles but was also a good defender.

Troy Polamalu--he was a fearsome player whose presence was felt more than the stats alone would indicate.

Tony Boselli

Zach Thomas--1700 tackles! Wow. I don't remember him as well but he must have led the AFC in tackles a number of years.

Edgerin James

Simeon Rice-has 122 sacks, which is 20th all time.

Tory Holt; although Bruce had more career receptions, he had to play five more years.  Holt was the better player and actually had more yards despite playing five years less. That tells you something.  Maybe neither of these guys get in until they are eligible for the Senior category. Both are close but they played in the start of the pass happy era.

 

[Anarchy99]

Well, ignoring that they didn't play in the same era pretty much negates any meaningful comparison, so what's the point?

Fine. They we can use this one instead. Most times ranked in the Top 5 in receptions, receiving yards, or receiving TD's. I only used wide receivers whose careers overlapped with Bruce and are ranked in the Top 50 in all time receiving yards (which is almost 10,000 yards receiving). The list is ranked based on total career receiving yards so people can get a better perspective on who may have been consistently more at the top of the class as opposed to more of a compiler.

Jerry Rice - 31
Larry Fitzgerald - 13
Terrell Owens - 13
Randy Moss - 17
Isaac Bruce - 6
Tim Brown - 8
Steve Smith - 6
Marvin Harrison - 17
Reggie Wayne - 7
Andre Johnson - 8
Cris Carter - 13
Anquan Boldin - 5
Henry Ellard - 7
Torry Holt - 10
Andre Reed - 5
Irving Fryar - 3
Art Monk - 5
Brandon Marshall - 11
Jimmy Smith - 7
Hines Ward - 6
Derrick Mason - 5
Michael Irvin - 7
Calvin Johnson - 10
Muhsin Muhammad - 4
Rod Smith - 7
Keenan McCardell - 0
Chad Johnson - 8
Joey Galloway - 2
Roddy White - 5
Gary Clark - 6
Keyshawn Johnson - 1
Desean Jackson - 0
Santana Moss - 3
Andre Rison - 11
Donald Driver - 3
Eric Moulds - 3
Wes Welker - 7

IMO, Bruce's score of 6 is nothing to write home about. Yes, guys like Monk and Reed are HOF'ers with scores of 5 . . . but I wasn't a huge fan when they got voted in. I won't weep if Bruce were to get elected, but I certainly cry for him if he didn't. I think Holt had a more impactful career on average than Bruce did.

 

[Arodin]

I found this clearer to think about sorted by # rather than name:

JerryRice31
RandyMoss17
MarvinHarrison17
LarryFitzgerald13
TerrellOwens13
CrisCarter13
BrandonMarshall11
AndreRison11
TorryHolt10
CalvinJohnson10
TimBrown8
AndreJohnson8
ChadJohnson8
ReggieWayne7
HenryEllard7
JimmySmith7
MichaelIrvin7
RodSmith7
Wes Welker7
IsaacBruce6
SteveSmith6
HinesWard6
GaryClark6
AnquanBoldin5
AndreReed5
ArtMonk5
DerrickMason5
RoddyWhite5
MuhsinMuhammad4
IrvingFryar3
SantanaMoss3
DonaldDriver3
EricMoulds3
JoeyGalloway2
KeyshawnJohnson1
KeenanMcCardell0
DeseanJackson0

The bolded set at the top are pretty obvious consensus HoF players, and this is a large part of why.  Clearly among the best for many years.  It reinforces the case for Torry Holt, finding him up there with Calvin and Andre Johnson, who most would consider HoF worthy.

Brandon Marshall is higher than I would have expected...and I do think a lot of the 7-8 range are on the cusp of being deserving.  Situation matters a lot.  Andre Johnson for instance seems to get some credit for being the only option on some pretty bad teams, holding his numbers down.

Where do you draw the line here for "not good enough to get in?"

 

[Tau837]

Yep, I will always be making cases against Bruce, and Holt for that matter.

I find it bizarre that you oppose Bruce because you characterize him as a compiler, but also oppose Holt. Holt's resume, in 11 seasons:

• Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Key player on Super Bowl champion; had 7/109/1 in the Super Bowl
  
• Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 117 receptions (still 17th highest single season total of all time), 1696 receiving yards (still 9th highest single season total of all time), and 12 TDs... with Marc Bulger at QB
  
• Selected 1st team All Pro 1 time and 2nd team All Pro 1 time and made 7 Pro Bowls
  
• Currently #21 all-time in receptions; #12 at time of retirement in 2010
  
• 5 seasons in top 10 in receptions, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time
  
• Currently #16 all-time in receptions; #10 at time of retirement
  
• 8 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards, including 4 seasons in the top 5; led the league 2 times
  
• 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons; 6 straight 1300+ yard seasons (NFL record); 2 1600+ yard seasons (1 of only 5 WRs to accomplish that)
  
• Currently #9 all-time in receiving yards per game; #2 at time of retirement
  
• 7 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards per game, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time 
  
• Currently #36 all-time in receiving TDs; #18 at time of retirement
  
• 4 seasons in top 10 in receiving TDs, including 2 seasons in the top 3
  
• Currently #13 all-time in career yards/touch; #2 at time of retirement
  

Holt played at a consistent high level for his first 9 seasons in the league, then quickly faded and did not hang on compiling.

IMO Holt is very worthy, and I think he will follow Bruce in.

 

[Tau837]

Do you consider Jimmy Smith or Rod Smith HOF'ers? Other than the game winning TD in the final 2 minutes, they have pretty similar careers to Bruce. 

Jimmy Smith has a pretty strong case IMO but falls a bit short. In comparison to Bruce and Holt:

• Did not play a key role in a famous/notable offense
  
• Did not play in a Super Bowl, so no rings and no key plays
  
• Fewer receptions, receiving yards, and TDs
  

Rod Smith has a lesser case IMO. In comparison to Bruce and Holt:

• Did not play a key role in a famous/notable offense
  
• Fewer true peak seasons
  
• Fewer receptions, receiving yards, and TDs
  
• While he did win two rings and did play well in 1 Super Bowl, he also was literally blanked in the other one
  

I would say Bruce >= Holt > Jimmy > Rod, and I think Jimmy falls just short of the HOF threshold. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jimmy or Rod get in via the veterans committee at some point in the future.

 

[Tau837]

John Lynch--he was the best player on a very good Tampa D.  He had over a 1000 tackles but was also a good defender.

Wow. Could not disagree with this more. IMO he was at best the 4th best player on those defenses behind Sapp, Brooks, and Barber. Some might put Rice ahead of him also. Sapp and Brooks were both DPOYs, and Sapp, Brooks, and Barber all had more All Pro selections.

I would take non-HOFers Atwater, Butler, and Rodney Harrison ahead of Lynch without hesitation.

 

[Tau837]

Where do you draw the line here for "not good enough to get in?"

You can't just draw a line IMO, because it isn't just about numbers and rankings. Honors/awards, postseason success, signature moments,  and fame and "telling the story of the NFL" all matter. Some mixture of peak and longevity is typically needed. Character can also matter.

 

[travdogg]

I find it bizarre that you oppose Bruce because you characterize him as a compiler, but also oppose Holt. Holt's resume, in 11 seasons:

• Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
  
• Key player on Super Bowl champion; had 7/109/1 in the Super Bowl
  
• Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 117 receptions (still 17th highest single season total of all time), 1696 receiving yards (still 9th highest single season total of all time), and 12 TDs... with Marc Bulger at QB
  
• Selected 1st team All Pro 1 time and 2nd team All Pro 1 time and made 7 Pro Bowls
  
• Currently #21 all-time in receptions; #12 at time of retirement in 2010
  
• 5 seasons in top 10 in receptions, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time
  
• Currently #16 all-time in receptions; #10 at time of retirement
  
• 8 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards, including 4 seasons in the top 5; led the league 2 times
  
• 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons; 6 straight 1300+ yard seasons (NFL record); 2 1600+ yard seasons (1 of only 5 WRs to accomplish that)
  
• Currently #9 all-time in receiving yards per game; #2 at time of retirement
  
• 7 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards per game, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time 
  
• Currently #36 all-time in receiving TDs; #18 at time of retirement
  
• 4 seasons in top 10 in receiving TDs, including 2 seasons in the top 3
  
• Currently #13 all-time in career yards/touch; #2 at time of retirement
  

Holt played at a consistent high level for his first 9 seasons in the league, then quickly faded and did not hang on compiling.

IMO Holt is very worthy, and I think he will follow Bruce in.

Its entirely possible I just think too many players at positions other than WR are more worthy. I do like Holt more than Bruce(or either Smith) but I don't see him as a HOF'er. 

Calvin Johnson to me is a HOF'er, Antonio Brown is a HOF'er, Julio Jones is right on the borderline for me. That is basically my entire list of WR's from the last 20 years that aren't already in the HOF that I think should be. If a player wasn't arguably the best player at his position for a few seasons, he doesn't make my list. On the flip side, I only require a few years of being the best, which is why I was on board with a guy like Terrell Davis, and a guy like Gore isn't even on my radar.

I like Torry Holt, but there are so many players at other positions(and WR honestly) that I'd put in before him. That is where my "no" comes from. I'd certainly call Holt a top-10 WR for about 7-8 years. But he had just 1 season, as a truly elite WR in my opinion. Being a top-10 guy, doesn't mean much to me. I hold it against Curtis Martin too for instance. I'm mostly interested in truly elite play. 

I'll freely admit I'm probably more rigid and demanding of my HOF'ers than most.