FarFromHome
Footballguy
I never heard that story. Absolutely love it. Ha ha.
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Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024 Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)
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rockaction
Footballguy
I didn't know McMichael was stricken with ALS. Godspeed to him and his family on their journeys.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Voters can be weird about guys being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Gates will make it in sooner rather than later, but I suspect some think he didn't deserve to be a 1st ballot TE like Gonzalez was and like Gronk and Kelce will be.Guess my take on Gates wasn’t so outlandish.
My reaction to your posts was to some of the comments that you made, like Gates being 1st ballot Hall of Very Good, etc. Some of what you wrote did not appear to be commentary limited exclusively to 1st ballot but more broadly to his HOF worthiness. Given you intended it to be solely about the former, you were obviously right.
IMO the fact that Gates didn't make it in this class just shows that HOF voters make mistakes. Putting Hester in over him is a complete joke and weakens the quality and meaning of being a Pro Football HOFer.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
IMO the numbers bear this out.Voters can be weird about guys being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Gates will make it in sooner rather than later, but I suspect some think he didn't deserve to be a 1st ballot TE like Gonzalez was and like Gronk and Kelce will be.Guess my take on Gates wasn’t so outlandish.
My reaction to your posts was to some of the comments that you made, like Gates being 1st ballot Hall of Very Good, etc. Some of what you wrote did not appear to be commentary limited exclusively to 1st ballot but more broadly to his HOF worthiness. Given you intended it to be solely about the former, you were obviously right.
IMO the fact that Gates didn't make it in this class just shows that HOF voters make mistakes. Putting Hester in over him is a complete joke and weakens the quality and meaning of being a Pro Football HOFer.
Fair or not, I’ve always heard and HOF compares numbers to guys who are already in.
370 fewer receptions is not a small number. Nor is ~3200 yards.
Taste most definitely there, and Gates did dominate the era in which he played. Both of these are in his favor.
But between the overall numbers and the PED questions, 1st ballot wasn’t realistic.
I agree he’ll get in. Next year’s gonna tough - I posted the list of eligibles above. It’s significant.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The logic here is faulty. If voters make comparisons, it’s to the lowest guy inducted not the highest. For example, if the bar for induction at QB is Tom Brady, they would never vote in another QB. But if the comparison is Joe Namath or Jim Kelly, then a lot of guys stand a chance.IMO the numbers bear this out.Voters can be weird about guys being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Gates will make it in sooner rather than later, but I suspect some think he didn't deserve to be a 1st ballot TE like Gonzalez was and like Gronk and Kelce will be.Guess my take on Gates wasn’t so outlandish.
My reaction to your posts was to some of the comments that you made, like Gates being 1st ballot Hall of Very Good, etc. Some of what you wrote did not appear to be commentary limited exclusively to 1st ballot but more broadly to his HOF worthiness. Given you intended it to be solely about the former, you were obviously right.
IMO the fact that Gates didn't make it in this class just shows that HOF voters make mistakes. Putting Hester in over him is a complete joke and weakens the quality and meaning of being a Pro Football HOFer.
Fair or not, I’ve always heard and HOF compares numbers to guys who are already in.
370 fewer receptions is not a small number. Nor is ~3200 yards.
Taste most definitely there, and Gates did dominate the era in which he played. Both of these are in his favor.
But between the overall numbers and the PED questions, 1st ballot wasn’t realistic.
I agree he’ll get in. Next year’s gonna tough - I posted the list of eligibles above. It’s significant.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You’re probably right about that, but besides TGonz there are only 8 TE in the HOF.The logic here is faulty. If voters make comparisons, it’s to the lowest guy inducted not the highest. For example, if the bar for induction at QB is Tom Brady, they would never vote in another QB. But if the comparison is Joe Namath or Jim Kelly, then a lot of guys stand a chance.IMO the numbers bear this out.Voters can be weird about guys being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Gates will make it in sooner rather than later, but I suspect some think he didn't deserve to be a 1st ballot TE like Gonzalez was and like Gronk and Kelce will be.Guess my take on Gates wasn’t so outlandish.
My reaction to your posts was to some of the comments that you made, like Gates being 1st ballot Hall of Very Good, etc. Some of what you wrote did not appear to be commentary limited exclusively to 1st ballot but more broadly to his HOF worthiness. Given you intended it to be solely about the former, you were obviously right.
IMO the fact that Gates didn't make it in this class just shows that HOF voters make mistakes. Putting Hester in over him is a complete joke and weakens the quality and meaning of being a Pro Football HOFer.
Fair or not, I’ve always heard and HOF compares numbers to guys who are already in.
370 fewer receptions is not a small number. Nor is ~3200 yards.
Taste most definitely there, and Gates did dominate the era in which he played. Both of these are in his favor.
But between the overall numbers and the PED questions, 1st ballot wasn’t realistic.
I agree he’ll get in. Next year’s gonna tough - I posted the list of eligibles above. It’s significant.
Casper, Ditka, Mackey, Newsome, Sanders, Sharpe, Smith, Winslow.
Several of those dudes pioneered the receiving TE role. Gates played in a much different era. It’s fair to say he’s compared more to TGonz, Sharp & Winslow than he would be to Ditka, Mackey, or Casper.
Again; i’m not talking HOF worthiness, only 1st ballot worthiness.
I think the PED suspension hurts his 1st ballot case more than anything in the eyes of voters, but that’s just like, my opinion, maaaan. Lack of a ring, and how he stacks up to the other modern TEs factors as well
It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes.
I just watched it too.
Csonka4life
Footballguy
I couldn't be happier for the Veterans committee inductees. Gradishar should have been an easy inductee before he had to make it through the second process and Mongo who is fighting for his life.
I don't like the Hester choice because there have been so many great returners who have never had a serious look. I would rather have an all around gadget type guy make it as that's the new evolution of the NFL.
I don't like the Hester choice because there have been so many great returners who have never had a serious look. I would rather have an all around gadget type guy make it as that's the new evolution of the NFL.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I know this isn't the best comparison, but my issue for predominantly special teams player is they aren't on the field much. There aren't enough records on snap counts to look across Hester's entire career, but in his last 5 seasons, he played a total of 1,444 snaps between time on offense and special teams. As a comparison, CeeDee Lamb played in 2,008 total snaps over the last two seasons combined. That's about 3.5 times the amount of snaps Hester played per season. IMO, HOF caliber players shouldn't spend most of the game on the sideline.
What about kickers?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I've stated many times that all special teams players shouldn't be inducted unless they make a special designation for guys that played special teams and a display away from the other HOFers. There just isn't very much impact between the best kicker and other top kickers (or punters for that matter).
The huge majority of kickoffs these days are touchbacks (so no advantage for any particular kicker). The Top 25 kickers all-time in terms of FG% only vary by 5%. That's approximately the difference of 1.5 made kicks over the span of a 17-game season. Same thing with punters. The difference in punting yardage for most kickers in the league is around 2 yards. For a kicker that punts a lot, that's the difference of 150 yards over the course of a 17-game season. The difference between an All-Pro punter and middle-of-the-road punters is 6-8 yards a game. You tell me . . . does having a placekicker that gets an extra FG or two over the course of a season (compared to other ones in the top third of the league) or paying top dollar for a punter that might get you 8 yards of total field position in a game really merit HOF consideration?
Yeah, I get it, teams with terrible kickers will suffer and potentially lose some games because of it. But that doesn't mean the uber elite kickers offer that much added value compared to other top kickers.
Same thing with core special teamers. I mentioned earlier that Matthew Slater has been one of the most decorated special teamers over his career (10 Pro Bowls and 2 All-Pro selections). He's averaged 0.8 tackles per game over his career. As far as returners go, most returners have a few years where they are near the top of the league, but if they keep returning kicks, they end up having a lot of years where they are near league average in terms of average yards per return.
Most people wouldn't even recognize who the top returners are. This year, Keisean Nixon of GB was the top kick returner and Derius Davis of LAC the top punt returner. The difference in yardage for these guys vs. many others was 50-100 yards total over the course of the season. Basically worth 3 to 6 yards per game. Yet no one has ever heard of them. I still contend that special teamers are special teamers because they aren't good enough to have regular roles on offense or defense.
wlwiles
Footballguy
Re: kickers -- I guess it makes sense in the grand scheme, because look at how many teams will easily cut and replace a kicker. Guys like Dustin Hopkins and Matt Gay and Brett Maher and countless others - teams with a quick trigger have no qualms about replacing them because like you just outlined (and like the fantasy community has said for years) when it comes down to it, a kicker is a kicker...
As for Hester - if you look at total body of work, he has 3700 yards and 14 TDs as a returner, and 3300/16 as a receiver. Combined, that's 7000 yards and 30 TDs. That's roughly the same as Chris Godwin's (6800/34) career stats to date. I think credence is given very liberally to the timing of Hester's TD's - it always feels like a huge momentum swing when a special teams TD happens, and he had the most of those. It feels like a stolen possession or an extra TD because it happens on ST. But it counts for 6 pts on the scoreboard same as any other. I don't think I'd have voted him in personally, but I don't guess I have an enormous issue with it, because of one main reason. If you're filling out the HoF position by position, when you get to the Kick Returner position, nobody was better in that spot than him. I just wish he'd have been a better WR to help the career numbers, but that's probably just me.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
A different, practical, pragmatic way to look at it is typically the best players in the league get paid the most (by far). How little do special teamers get paid? In 11 seasons, Hester's combined career salary was $12.3 million (with bonuses and incentives he made $29 million in total). That doesn't mean he wasn't very good at what he did, but the league overall hasn't exactly coveted or paid special teams guys a ton of money.
At one point in a different thread several years ago, I outlined the career productivity of Adam Vinatieri (who many feel will be the next PK to make it). People remember him making some big kicks in some big games, but he essentially was almost exactly league average across his 24-year career in terms of his success rate and total scoring (actually just below average IIRC). But that's the thing . . . how many guys play for 24 years? He is currently the highest scoring player in league history. He averaged 111 points per season, which this past year would have ranked 23rd among kickers. Even adjusted for playing only 16 games, he would have ranked 20th this year. If he gets inducted, so be it, but I don't think of him as some super kicker that lapped the field of other kickers in anything other than longevity.
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Tau837
Footballguy
I don't agree with this. Gale Sayers was better and was also a multi-time All Pro RB. One can make an argument (as posted in this thread) that Brian Mitchell was better. And those are just two off the top of my head.
I agree with David. If they want special teams players in the HOF, then make a category for it, like they did for contributors. That way, players like Hester, Morten Andersen, and Ray Guy will never again be able to take spot from many other more worthy players, like Gates, Holt, et al. Until then, IMO no player should get in solely on the basis of special teams play, because no special teams player can ever provide value/impact comparable to HOF worthy offensive and defensive players.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'm also not in favor of Hester getting in for the reasons Anarchy99 and Just Win Baby state. I used to be for it, but Anarchy99 changed my mind with his arguments over the years. There's just no way a guy who plays the amount of snaps strictly special teamers play deserve to be in the HoF. Hester was exciting, beautiful, and exhilarating to watch, sure, but that doesn't mean he was at the height of all the players in his profession. One aspect of it, but they weren't the difference makers that every-down guys are.
In fact, I remember for years Chicago always was trying to get Hester the ball on offense, but he couldn't even win the WR3 job. That's just how it was and shows that maybe he wasn't quite the all-around football player he'll now get credit for being.
In fact, I remember for years Chicago always was trying to get Hester the ball on offense, but he couldn't even win the WR3 job. That's just how it was and shows that maybe he wasn't quite the all-around football player he'll now get credit for being.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Agree and I’m a Bears fan.
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