The migrant caravan (1 Viewer)

[jamny]

Right. Seems like these numbers the articles above are sharing can't be that precise.. for this reason alone, even ignoring others.

And are these fake SSN's or stolen ones? Seems like some innocent people might get screwed in the process.

 

[jamny]

I should have looked it up first.

Most illegal immigrants who pay taxes have stolen someone else’s legal identity, and the IRS doesn’t do a very good job of letting those American citizens and legal immigrants know they’re being impersonated, the tax agency’s inspector general said in a new report released Thursday.

The theft creates major problems for the American citizens and legal foreign workers whose identities are stolen, and who have to deal with explaining money they never earned.

 

[matuski]

And are these fake SSN's or stolen ones? Seems like some innocent people might get screwed in the process.

They are usually fake/duplicates.

My dad would raid a meat packing plant for example and find 6 people with the same SS#.

 

[jamny]

Upon contact in the US with other illegals of the same origin, new illegal immigrants learn of suppliers who can equip them with false documents and personal data. Sometimes the SSAN given them is of a living person, sometimes the SSAN belongs to a deceased person.

So why doesn’t the Social Security Administration (SSA) computer system detect this, and the SSA then notify DHS or FBI of the fraud?

The SSA does this as best it can, but the SSA lacks manning. The SSA is overwhelmed now with its other duties and lacks the time to investigate all such cases of SSAN misuse in a timely manner. The backlog is huge.

Misuse of invalid SSAN could be an innocent typo, clerical error, transmission error, etc., and it takes time on the phone or in written correspondance for an SSA investigator to identify and find the SSAN user, who has often moved on from the last known address, and is now using a different invalid SSAN.

If the SSAN misuser is found, the SSA must then establish contact. This is difficult, as the misuser will often disappear, and if not, will refuse to speak over the phone or in person to an SSA investigator. After that, the misuser typically leaves the job after an interview or notification, and disappears.

Then, the SSA must identify the reason for the misuse, make a determination, and then document all the details of the case for Federal law enforcement action and submit the case to FBI or DHS.

Then, FBI or DHS must evaluate the situation, open a law enforcement case and start an investigation, complete with a hunt for the new location of the SSAN misuser. Yes, DHS and the FBI may eventually find the person, but those organizations also have austere manning and higher priority cases involving violent crime and large scale fraud.

Found the person! Great! No. The person locates an attorney who handles immigration cases and begins a delaying action to avoid legal action unhelpful to his client, the SSAN misuser. And what does the misuser do? Vanish again and move to a new place to start again.

Can we offset the cost of this process against the amount that illegals "contribute" to the system? I'd like to see the revised dollar amount on that.

eta: not to mention the headaches that a taxpaying citizen has to go through after the identity theft.

 

[The Commish]

It was incorrect to state they don't pay taxes.. what they pay is sales tax and the like.  I'd like to see the % of taxes paid through income taxes.  Sub 10%?  I bet they even pay more on property taxes.

Obviously hard to get around sales taxes, etc.

I haven't a clue what their tax basis ends up being, but I know I haven't seen double digit basis since the first year I did my taxes when I didn't know what the hell I was doing  

 

[parasaurolophus]

Can we offset the cost of this process against the amount that illegals "contribute" to the system? I'd like to see the revised dollar amount on that.

eta: not to mention the headaches that a taxpaying citizen has to go through after the identity theft.

Pffffffftttt. It is white privilege to have to deal with those headaches. 

 

[Lutherman2112]

If only there was some way for employers to verify  Social Security numbers.

 

[stlrams]

They pay lots of taxes. Not as much as they would if they had legal status, but still plenty. They pay into Social Security and Medicare and never collect on it. They pay tons of sales taxes.

I have absolutely NO idea how you think a wall would help in any way. So far as I can see, it's impact would be be wholly negative.

With all due respect, the vast majority of illegals I know work in industries (farming, restaurants, service and construction), that pay them under the table thus no tax’s paid.  

 

[timschochet]

With all due respect, the vast majority of illegals I know work in industries (farming, restaurants, service and construction), that pay them under the table thus no tax’s paid.  

Then you don’t know a lot of them, I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/investigations/Undocumented-Workers-Contribute-Billions-of-Dollars-to-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html%3famp=y

 

[timschochet]

12 billion a year in Social Security alone. Out of 848 billion total, or 1.4%, and never collected. 

It could be argued that undocumented immigrants are keeping Social Security solvent. 

 

[jamny]

12 billion a year in Social Security alone. Out of 848 billion total, or 1.4%, and never collected. 

It could be argued that undocumented immigrants are keeping Social Security solvent. 

Any thoughts on what I brought up earlier about the cost of trying to catch those with fake (or stolen) SSN's and the headaches put on people whose identity might have been stolen by those using their SSN? What would an average undocumented worker pay in income tax in a year?

 

[timschochet]

Any thoughts on what I brought up earlier about the cost of trying to catch those with fake (or stolen) SSN's and the headaches put on people whose identity might have been stolen by those using their SSN? What would an average undocumented worker pay in income tax in a year?

Yeah. My first thought is that there’s not enough stolen #s to bother trying to catch anybody so they shouldn’t waste the money. My second thought is that this could all be solved by giving these people legal status. It’s really dumb not to at this point. 

 

[timschochet]

 What would an average undocumented worker pay in income tax in a year?

It should be a ton. Many many billions, which we could certainly use. How bout we legalize them and collect it? 

 

[jamny]

It should be a ton. Many many billions, which we could certainly use. How bout we legalize them and collect it? 

What do you think it costs the government to track a single person down?  I'm guessing it's more per person then that person brings in a year.

And again, what about the headache that the person whose ID was stolen has to go through

 

[KickinT]

We don’t even have shelter for all of our current residents Tim.

 

[KickinT]

It seems unreasonable to take on more.  Housing is an issue no one seems to want to tackle.

 

[stlrams]

Then you don’t know a lot of them, I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/investigations/Undocumented-Workers-Contribute-Billions-of-Dollars-to-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html%3famp=y

I agree and know illegals with fake ss cards but there are many more that work under the table.  I’m guessing you pay some of them cash for their services. In addition, what’s the cost to provide healthcare, education,  etc to all?  Is it more them 12 billion?  

 

[stlrams]

Then you don’t know a lot of them, I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/investigations/Undocumented-Workers-Contribute-Billions-of-Dollars-to-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html%3famp=y

My math could be off.  Per your link illegals contribute 25.0 billion as per pew there are 11.1m illegals so $2,252 per person.  Guessing we spend more the $2,252 per illegal.  Per pupil stats in my state are $9500 per pupil..  

 

[Henry Ford]

What do you think it costs the government to track a single person down?  I'm guessing it's more per person then that person brings in a year.

And again, what about the headache that the person whose ID was stolen has to go through

a large percentage of those ss numbers are dead people.

 

[jamny]

a large percentage of those ss numbers are dead people.

Is there data showing that? And it still doesnt mean that a lot of living people aren't being hit with stolen identity.

 

[jamny]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/illegal-immigrants-cited-in-theft-of-39-million-social-security-numbers

 

[matuski]

Then you don’t know a lot of them, I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/investigations/Undocumented-Workers-Contribute-Billions-of-Dollars-to-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html%3famp=y

I'd like to see how they get these numbers from people they are unable to track.

 

[matuski]

I haven't a clue what their tax basis ends up being, but I know I haven't seen double digit basis since the first year I did my taxes when I didn't know what the hell I was doing  

It is obvious they pay taxes... it seems from reading the articles linked here that a lot of assumptions are being made, and that these numbers by definition are fuzzy at best.

How are they getting people's information from the IRS.. not public is it?  How are they getting data from people not on the radar?

I would be fascinated to see how they got this info, or how they are assuming it.

 

[Mile High]

There is a widely held misconception that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes. However, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a Washington, D.C. think tank, roughly half of undocumented immigrants pay taxes using the IRS’ Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITIN) program. The program is intended for nonimmigrant visa holders, contract workers, investors, and students. But many undocumented immigrants use it since it allows them to file taxes without obtaining a Social Security number. The ITIN program is used by 4.6 million people; in 2015, 900,000 people applied to get an ITIN. The largest numbers of ITIN users originate from Mexico, Guatemala, and India.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/undocumented-immigrants-federal-taxes-trump/

 

[Quint]

I had my ID stolen (SS # specifically) by someone living in Torrance CA back in the early 90s. That person went around opening checking accounts at various banks in SoCal - under an alias, not my name, and proceeded to kite checks all over the place. 

After spending months dealing with my bank and ChexSystems, I was finally able to get my SS# disassociated with these fraudulent transactions, and my credit out of the toilet. Turns out, it is/was common to people to purchases legit SS#s and use them to find employment, open bank accounts, etc. While I’m not 100% certain, the bank, LE, and ChexSystems presumed it was done by someone who was not in CA legally.  

Not trying to use a specific to prove a generality, just a data point in this particular tangent in this discussion. 

 

[jamny]

There is a widely held misconception that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes. However, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a Washington, D.C. think tank, roughly half of undocumented immigrants pay taxes using the IRS’ Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITIN) program. The program is intended for nonimmigrant visa holders, contract workers, investors, and students. But many undocumented immigrants use it since it allows them to file taxes without obtaining a Social Security number. The ITIN program is used by 4.6 million people; in 2015, 900,000 people applied to get an ITIN. The largest numbers of ITIN users originate from Mexico, Guatemala, and India.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/undocumented-immigrants-federal-taxes-trump/

Well, to start, between 2011 and 2016, the IRS documented more than 1.3 million cases of identity theft by people who had been given Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITINs). An ITIN, created by IRS fiat in 1996, is a “tax processing number only available for certain nonresident and resident aliens, their spouses, and dependents who cannot get a Social Security Number.[4] The IRS claims that ITINs do not create legal residency status or work authorization on an I-9 form. But thanks to what amounts to an the effort to get illegals to pay taxes, the ITIN can be used to claim the Child Tax Credit, to get a driver’s license, to open an interest-bearing checking account, and more besides. An ITIN also provides, somewhat ironically it will seem to many readers, proof of residency in the United States in case an illegal applies for legal status at some point.

Because the IRS wants to tax them, those with no legal status in the United States can fairly easily get an ITIN, just by filling out a W-7 form—essentially end-running the main purpose of a 1986 law that required legal residency in order to get a job. The applicant does not have to appear in person before any government official, and need submit only any one of 13 documents approved for the purpose; the document(s) are returned with the ITIN after 60 days. The IRS does not ask about legal status, and the law concerning the privacy of all IRS functions has been interpreted (by the IRS) to prohibit it from sharing any information about ITIN applicants with immigration officials or law enforcement. By August 2012, the IRS had assigned 21 million ITINs to taxpayers and their dependents­—a number that far exceeds conventional estimates of the number of illegal immigrants in the United States. By now the number is certainly larger, but it is impossible to find in public sources. It is so easy to get an ITIN that it’s not unreasonable to conclude that every illegal alien in the United States who wants an ITIN has one.

Of course, if any one of 13 documents will do, those most easily forged will be the documents of preference for illegal residents to get an ITIN. Why use a forged document? Because many illegal aliens have no documents at all, and some are forethoughtful enough not to use their real name to get one. That enables individuals to hide past indebtedness and criminal convictions in their country of origin, and also in the United States. So some again unknown number of illegal immigrants secure multiple ITINs to cover their own tracks and then sell those ITINs to newcomers, who simply adopt the fictitious name on the document invented by the earlier arrival.

Many illegal immigrants are content with an ITIN number, but ITINs are limited; they are not much good for credit applications, for example. So, unsurprisingly, a major document-forging industry has arisen in the wake of the 1986 law not just for the purpose of helping illegals get ITINs, but for a good deal more than that—for stealing the identity of U.S. citizens. Good luck, IRS, taxing all that hard work.

The problem was detected and made publicly known at least by 2002, when the Immigration and Naturalization Service reported that, “large-scale counterfeiting has made fraudulent employment eligibility documents (e.g., Social Security cards) widely available.” The report also describes an incident in 1998 where “INS seized more than 24,000 counterfeit Social Security cards in Los Angeles after undercover agents purchased 10,000 counterfeit INS permanent resident cards from a counterfeit document ring.”

It is not hard to understand why this happens. Once in the United States, illegal immigrants use counterfeit documents to secure jobs that would otherwise be kept out of reach by the employee verification process. That works for many who are content with an ITIN, but also for those illegals who want better documents for the purpose of, for example, appropriating someone else’s credit to buy or lease cars and acquire auto insurance. Some use it to claim Social Security benefits that are not theirs, and some succeed. This requires actual identity theft: the trifecta of name, social security number, and birthdate. Addresses and telephone numbers are easy to add to make a stolen identity package.

link

 

[The Commish]

It is obvious they pay taxes... it seems from reading the articles linked here that a lot of assumptions are being made, and that these numbers by definition are fuzzy at best.

How are they getting people's information from the IRS.. not public is it?  How are they getting data from people not on the radar?

I would be fascinated to see how they got this info, or how they are assuming it.

Yeah. I have no idea. And as i type this i realize i don't care all that much. I just saw the line you drew and it seemed as if you thought that being below that line was a problem or nefarious or something. I was simply pointing out that it's pretty easy to get under that basis for a lot of us and it's all within the tax rules. Not sure that's a wise measure to be using. 

 

[matuski]

link

My dad made a killing in the private sector consulting small companies like Walmart, Tyson Chicken, Swift, DuPont, etc.  After 9/11 the government subsidized efforts to improve hiring practices and make these loopholes harder to find and get through.

They had not been doing their due diligence on this, and it was a huge liability.

 

[matuski]

Yeah. I have no idea. And as i type this i realize i don't care all that much. I just saw the line you drew and it seemed as if you thought that being below that line was a problem or nefarious or something. I was simply pointing out that it's pretty easy to get under that basis for a lot of us and it's all within the tax rules. Not sure that's a wise measure to be using. 

If they cost more than they pay or their share.. definitely a problem.  But I don't know how you can possibly claim any number as accurate.. aside from the duplicate SS#'s,  so many not filing at all, and an infinite number of different public services and systems (healthcare, schools, roads bridges, welfare and food stamps, law enforcement, fire departments).... seems a daunting task to quantify.

My argument is to bring them into the system so there isn't any doubt.

 

[stlrams]

Then you don’t know a lot of them, I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/investigations/Undocumented-Workers-Contribute-Billions-of-Dollars-to-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html%3famp=y

Not to pile on but federal or charitable organizations dollars-provide housing for illegals that could otherwise be redistributed to others.  Plus I personally know non-profits that provide gifts cards to illegals in large amounts to circumnavigate tax issues.  

 

[timschochet]

My math could be off.  Per your link illegals contribute 25.0 billion as per pew there are 11.1m illegals so $2,252 per person.  Guessing we spend more the $2,252 per illegal.  Per pupil stats in my state are $9500 per pupil..  

Your guess is wrong. Most undocumented immigrants are adults who don’t attend public school. Most of them have no health care and don’t go to the hospital even when very sick, because they’re scared of deportation. 

No matter how you slice it these folks costs you very little. Pennies on the dollars. They bring so much more than they take out that it’s incredibly frustrating to even have this discussion.

In additon, we’re talking about the absolute best of Americans here. They risk their life coming here to seek a better life. They ask for almost nothing in return. They are, by percentage, far more law abiding than your average citizen. They are young and energetic. They believe in this country and the American dream. They want their children to have better lives than they do. THEY ARE EVERYTHING WE REGARD AS THE AMERICAN IDEAL. Why do they bother you so much? 

 

[timschochet]

Not to pile on but federal or charitable organizations dollars-provide housing for illegals that could otherwise be redistributed to others.  Plus I personally know non-profits that provide gifts cards to illegals in large amounts to circumnavigate tax issues.  

So what? Who deserves it more than them? 

 

[jamny]

So what? Who deserves it more than them? 

Homeless American citizens?

 

[timschochet]

Homeless American citizens?

I want to help them too. But why do they deserve it more? 

 

[timschochet]

All of us who are born here are incredibly lucky. We didn’t cause that to happen. We didn’t earn our citizenship. None of us risked our lives to come here. We should treat these people like the heroes they are. Most of them have more guts and courage than any of us. 

 

[jamny]

I want to help them too. But why do they deserve it more? 

Because I feel that helping improve the lives of our citizens helps the country prosper more than helping improve the lives of people here illegally.

I'm sure you'll disagree.

 

[stlrams]

Your guess is wrong. Most undocumented immigrants are adults who don’t attend public school. Most of them have no health care and don’t go to the hospital even when very sick, because they’re scared of deportation. 

No matter how you slice it these folks costs you very little. Pennies on the dollars. They bring so much more than they take out that it’s incredibly frustrating to even have this discussion.

In additon, we’re talking about the absolute best of Americans here. They risk their life coming here to seek a better life. They ask for almost nothing in return. They are, by percentage, far more law abiding than your average citizen. They are young and energetic. They believe in this country and the American dream. They want their children to have better lives than they do. THEY ARE EVERYTHING WE REGARD AS THE AMERICAN IDEAL. Why do they bother you so much? 

From what I can the number of undocumented children has dramatically increase over the years.  From 16k in 2011 to 59k in 2016.   This doesn’t include with parents so please provide stats.  Plus we have children of illegals that are consider us citizens that have children...

 

[timschochet]

Because I feel that helping improve the lives of our citizens helps the country prosper more than helping improve the lives of people here illegally.

I'm sure you'll disagree.

I do. I want to help everybody here that needs help. But- if I am forced ever to choose who to help, I think helping productive people improves our country prosper more than helping unproductive people. That’s a cold hearted, non liberal thing of me to write, but it’s where I’m at. 

 

[timschochet]

From what I can the number of undocumented children has dramatically increase over the years.  From 16k in 2011 to 59k in 2016.   This doesn’t include with parents so please provide stats.  Plus we have children of illegals that are consider us citizens that have children...

Considered? If they are lucky enough to be born here they are citizens with as much rights to public services as you. Why not? 

And you still haven’t answered the essential question: why do these people bother you so much? 

 

[stlrams]

All of us who are born here are incredibly lucky. We didn’t cause that to happen. We didn’t earn our citizenship. None of us risked our lives to come here. We should treat these people like the heroes they are. Most of them have more guts and courage than any of us. 

So why are you changing your argument from illegals our a tax benefit to let’s be charitable ? 

 

[sho nuff]

From what I can the number of undocumented children has dramatically increase over the years.  From 16k in 2011 to 59k in 2016.   This doesn’t include with parents so please provide stats.  Plus we have children of illegals that are consider us citizens that have children...

Yes those would be citizens and I have in the past and can again provide statistics showing the very positive impact of 2nd generation immigrants.

 

[jamny]

I do. I want to help everybody here that needs help. But- if I am forced ever to choose who to help, I think helping productive people improves our country prosper more than helping unproductive people. That’s a cold hearted, non liberal thing of me to write, but it’s where I’m at. 

Who are the unproductive people in your example?

 

[stlrams]

Considered? If they are lucky enough to be born here they are citizens with as much rights to public services as you. Why not? 

And you still haven’t answered the essential question: why do these people bother you so much? 

They don’t.  I just don’t agree with your premise that they are not a drag on our economy.  Do you benefit from illegals?

 

[timschochet]

Who are the unproductive people in your example?

Sadly, many homeless people. Many are alcoholics, drug addicts, some are former veterans. They absolutely need help, but they can’t be counted upon to make our country prosper the way young, energetic and healthy undocumented people can. 

 

[timschochet]

They don’t.  I just don’t agree with your premise that they are not a drag on our economy.  Do you benefit from illegals?

Yes. So do you. 

 

[stlrams]

Yes those would be citizens and I have in the past and can again provide statistics showing the very positive impact of 2nd generation immigrants.

Please provide link showing net benefit.  

 

[timschochet]

So why are you changing your argument from illegals our a tax benefit to let’s be charitable ? 

No. I believe that overall they are a benefit. The ones that aren’t we should help. 

 

[timschochet]

Please provide link showing net benefit.  

This has been done numerous times. Why should any of us bother to keep doing it? 

 

[matuski]

They don’t.  I just don’t agree with your premise that they are not a drag on our economy.  Do you benefit from illegals?

They are imperative to our economy as a whole, and demonstrably many local economies can't survive without them.

 

[sho nuff]

Please provide link showing net benefit.  

I have before...but here you go again.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/02/07/second-generation-americans/

There are plenty of others covering this.