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The migrant caravan (2 Viewers)

It can't just be a free for all.  We don't live in a free for all.  We follow laws, even the ones we don't agree with.  We are all registered and ID'd in order to make every system more efficient (not just the laws).  We rely on our documents to take advantage of what this country offers, and to pay into it.

More undocumented people doesn't help.  An orderly and lawful process would.

If the first step to getting there is actually enforcing what we have, I think that is reasonable. :shrug:
It’s not a free for all. Our current system (starting with Obama)  has made it much harder for people to cross the border without papers and the numbers have gone down. They go up again as our economy improves. 

 
When you have to  bring legal citizens into your argument for illegals, by definition it seems you are forfeiting the illegal portion of the conversation?

And unless I missed it, nobody is debating legal citizens and their contributions here?
Not at all...because that 2’d generation isn’t here if not for the initial immigrant.  And we disagree in the burden of the 1st generation as it is.

And yes...people have debated the laws regarding birthright citizenship and arguing about the laws regarding those kids is why I begin talking about them.

 
Look heroin is illegal. But people still use it. If we wanted to, we could REALLY enforce making heroin illegal. It would involve turning us into a near totalitarian society, with secret police, encouraging people to inform on their neighbors, and suspension of judicial rights, but we could virtually eliminate heroin. 

We choose not to. We make it illegal, we enforce it as we can, and acknowledge that some people still use it. 

 
Not at all...because that 2’d generation isn’t here if not for the initial immigrant.  And we disagree in the burden of the 1st generation as it is.

And yes...people have debated the laws regarding birthright citizenship and arguing about the laws regarding those kids is why I begin talking about them.
Two facts exist here, neither side wants to acknowledge both:

1) They are a burden.  A HUGE burden on some important systems of ours.

2) They are a boon.  A HUGE boon in many smaller towns that depend on them entirely for their labor to even exist.

These are both demonstrated.  Neither are debates.

The question is how these two variables balance against one another in the equation.  What you seem to be doing is starting another equation entirely... legal citizens are not part of the debate about the equation above regarding illegal aliens.

 
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Two facts exist here, neither side wants to acknowledge both:

1) They are a burden.  A HUGE burden on some important systems of ours.

2) They are a boon.  A HUGE boon in many smaller towns that depend on them entirely for their labor to even exist.

These are both demonstrated.  Neither are debates.

The question is how these two variables balance against one another in the equation.  What you seem to be doing is starting another equation entirely... legal citizens are not part of the debate about the equation above regarding illegal aliens.
Yes their children, if legal, are a part of the equation.  And I laugh at what you call facts while citing absolutely nothing to support those claims.

And I was not the one who brought them up.  In a discussion about immigration, birthright citizenship has been brought up and is a part of the equation.

 
From what I can the number of undocumented children has dramatically increase over the years.  From 16k in 2011 to 59k in 2016.   This doesn’t include with parents so please provide stats.  Plus we have children of illegals that are consider us citizens that have children...
@matuski

See the last line...this is where I begun to debate 2nd generation.

In addition Trump amd other Republican leaders have brought up birthright citizenship when discussing immigration.

 
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Of course not.

Do you falsify documents for employment or leave the country without your passport often?  Just not file taxes for your entire life?
Sorry, are we talking often or ever?  I've lied on my resume.  I know people who have done it their whole careers.  Some who have cheated on their taxes for decades. Even failed to file for years.  Some woman who wanted to work for the Trump administration falsified a degree and put pictures of it on social media - she's been using that fake degree for employment for some time.  I have left the country without my passport - once when it wasn't needed (Mexico) and once by mistake when I thought it wasn't needed to get back in.  Had a heck of a time getting back - good thing I'm a ginger and not a more swarthy fellow.

Also, you're not legally required to file taxes if you make under a threshold amount of money.  

 
Two facts exist here, neither side wants to acknowledge both:

1) They are a burden.  A HUGE burden on some important systems of ours.

2) They are a boon.  A HUGE boon in many smaller towns that depend on them entirely for their labor to even exist.

These are both demonstrated.  Neither are debates.

The question is how these two variables balance against one another in the equation.  What you seem to be doing is starting another equation entirely... legal citizens are not part of the debate about the equation above regarding illegal aliens.
On which systems do you consider them a huge burden?

 
Yes their children, if legal, are a part of the equation.  And I laugh at what you call facts while citing absolutely nothing to support those claims.

And I was not the one who brought them up.  In a discussion about immigration, birthright citizenship has been brought up and is a part of the equation.
Their children are legal.  By definition not part of the debate about illegals.  They are evidence of how we COULD/WOULD benefit by providing a path to becoming legal... but alas, they are still outside (being citizens) of a debate about non citizens.

If you are not familiar with what happens when aliens seek medical care, or how they impact many school districts.. I invite you to do some simple googling.  Those are two very easy burdens to demonstrate.

If you are not familiar with what happens when ICE cracks down on small town industries, I have shared that many times over.. or you can do some simple googling.  This is a very easy boon to demonstrate.

 
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Sorry, are we talking often or ever?  I've lied on my resume.  I know people who have done it their whole careers.  Some who have cheated on their taxes for decades. Even failed to file for years.  Some woman who wanted to work for the Trump administration falsified a degree and put pictures of it on social media - she's been using that fake degree for employment for some time.  I have left the country without my passport - once when it wasn't needed (Mexico) and once by mistake when I thought it wasn't needed to get back in.  Had a heck of a time getting back - good thing I'm a ginger and not a more swarthy fellow.

Also, you're not legally required to file taxes if you make under a threshold amount of money.  
Alright, you win the tangent.

 
Their children are legal.  By definition not part of the debate about illegals.  They are evidence of how we COULD benefit by providing a path to becoming legal... but alas, they are still outside (being citizens) of a debate about non citizens.

If you are not familiar with what happens when aliens seek medical care, or how they impact many school districts.. I invite you to do some simple googling.  Those are two very easy burdens to demonstrate.

If you are not familiar with what happens when ICE cracks down on small town industries, I have shared that many times over.. or you can do some simple googling.  This is a very easy boon to demonstrate.
This is why the kids have to be part of the debate.  You're claiming they're a burden on school systems but want to take out the kids who are in the school systems' contributions as part of the equation.  Same with any SNAP and TANF benefits - they only get them when they have citizen children.  Same with much of the medical care - it's for the kids.  So how can we say the kids are irrelevant if they're the stressor on the system?

 
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Their children are legal.  By definition not part of the debate about illegals.  They are evidence of how we COULD benefit by providing a path to becoming legal... but alas, they are still outside (being citizens) of a debate about non citizens.

If you are not familiar with what happens when aliens seek medical care, or how they impact many school districts.. I invite you to do some simple googling.  Those are two very easy burdens to demonstrate.

If you are not familiar with what happens when ICE cracks down on small town industries, I have shared that many times over.. or you can do some simple googling.  This is a very easy boon to demonstrate.
If you are not familiar with how the board works by now...you cite things to call them facts.  Not just declare it and think everyone should take what you aim as facts.  The things you describe above are burdens when anyone does it...but what’s the other side to that?  What are they providing and paying in to offset.  The burden claim is useless on its own and useless without citing anything.

And yes...the debate is about immigration and their children are a valid topic.

 
This is why the kids have to be part of the debate.  You're claiming they're a burden on school systems but want to take out the kids who are in the school systems' contributions as part of the equation.  Same with any SNAP and TANF benefits - they only get them when they have citizen children.  Same with much of the medical care - it's for the kids.  So how can we say the kids are irrelevant if they're the stressor on the system?
Exactly 

 
This is why the kids have to be part of the debate.  You're claiming they're a burden on school systems but want to take out the kids who are in the school systems' contributions as part of the equation.  Same with any SNAP and TANF benefits - they only get them when they have citizen children.  So how can we say the kids are irrelevant if they're the stressor on the system?
We can go in circles on this all day long.  If you argue they are not a boon, I think you are lost. If you are arguing that they are not a burden, I think you are lost. 

Schools in heavy immigrant areas are nearly crushed by this issue.  The children's parents are often in poverty.. so not paying a corresponding (or any) taxes into the system.  The children often only speak one language, and it isn't English.. this can be incredibly difficult on a school .  I know all my text books were in English, all my teachers taught in English.  Being from low income parents they are likely getting other various subsidies (breakfast and lunch), again not contributed to proportionately by their parents.... etc, etc.

The children themselves?  I love that they are fighting their way to success.  Definitely a boon, but one separate from the debate over the impact of their illegal parents... because we can document them. We know them very well as sho nuff is linking to.  

The debate is over the less clear impact relating to and from the illegal population we can't confidently track or know.  For all the reasons mentioned above.

 
We can go in circles on this all day long.  If you argue they are not a boon, I think you are lost. If you are arguing that they are not a burden, I think you are lost. 

Schools in heavy immigrant areas are nearly crushed by this issue.  The children's parents are often in poverty.. so not paying a corresponding (or any) taxes into the system.  The children often only speak one language, and it isn't English.. this can be incredibly difficult on a school .  I know all my text books were in English, all my teachers taught in English.  Being from low income parents they are likely getting other various subsidies (breakfast and lunch), again not contributed to proportionately by their parents.... etc, etc.

The children themselves?  I love that they are fighting their way to success.  Definitely a boon, but one separate from the debate over the impact of their illegal parents... because we can document them. We know them very well as sho nuff is linking to.  

The debate is over the less clear impact relating to and from the illegal population we can't confidently track or know.  For all the reasons mentioned above.
But it isn't separate. That's the whole point.

If we deport their parents, what will be the impact on those schools, social welfare systems (including free lunches and breakfasts, but now also foster care) and medical systems?  If the difference would be negligible or negative, then it isn't just the parents we're talking about, it's the kids too.

 
But it isn't separate. That's the whole point.

If we deport their parents, what will be the impact on those schools, social welfare systems (including free lunches and breakfasts, but now also foster care) and medical systems?  If the difference would be negligible or negative, then it isn't just the parents we're talking about, it's the kids too.
I would never want to deport the parents?

eat - well depends.

 
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I would never want to deport the parents?

eat - well depends.
Or if they simply disappeared in some way and weren't there anymore.  Whatever.  If we can't extricate the kids from the cost then we can't extricate the kids from the benefits.

 
Sorry, are we talking often or ever?  I've lied on my resume.  I know people who have done it their whole careers.  Some who have cheated on their taxes for decades. Even failed to file for years.  Some woman who wanted to work for the Trump administration falsified a degree and put pictures of it on social media - she's been using that fake degree for employment for some time.  I have left the country without my passport - once when it wasn't needed (Mexico) and once by mistake when I thought it wasn't needed to get back in.  Had a heck of a time getting back - good thing I'm a ginger and not a more swarthy fellow.

Also, you're not legally required to file taxes if you make under a threshold amount of money.  
Are their laws against lying on a resume?

 
Or if they simply disappeared in some way and weren't there anymore.  Whatever.  If we can't extricate the kids from the cost then we can't extricate the kids from the benefits.
I am only extricating the kids because they are not the debate.  They are a known.  Because they are documented.

How disproportionate are their parents contributions to all of these systems impacted.  How much of a boon are they to different locals and industries.  Is the boon the town/economy receives overall larger than the burden they place on healthcare and schools?  Etc.  I don't think we can ever know until we find a way to document them, like their children.

 
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Varies by state.

Under the Texas Penal Code, for example, it is illegal to use, or even to just claim to hold, a postsecondary degree you know to be fraudulent, substandard, or fictitious in order to obtain employment.
Florida (the state where Melissa Howard, the woman I referred to in the post, lives) also has a similar statute.

She received probation for her fraud.

https://www.newsweek.com/florida-gop-candidate-melissa-howard-placed-probation-faking-college-degree-1122929

 
I am only extricating the kids because they are not the debate.  They are a known.  Because they are documented.

How disproportionate are their parents contributions to all of these systems impacted.  How much of a boon are they to different locals and industries.  Is the boon the town/economy receives overall larger than the burden they place on healthcare and schools?  Etc.  I don't think we can ever know until we find a way to document them, like their children.
But you aren't extricating them.  You're using fixed costs for them that wouldn't change if their parents disappeared as costs of their parents.

 
You mean like when House Democrats offered ten years no federal benefits whatsoever in exchange for a legal residency pathway for about 2/3 of current undocumented immigrants in 2013 as part of their comprehensive immigration reform bill?

Because you can’t vote until you’re a citizen.  And they wouldn’t even be regular permanent residents for ten years, much less citizens. 
Democrats had 2 years to push any type of immigration reform and did nothing.  At this point, its the fault of both parties nothing has changed.

 
Democrats had 2 years to push any type of immigration reform and did nothing.  At this point, its the fault of both parties nothing has changed.
This has been discussed ad nauseam for years in various threads and although technically true, the Democrats only realistically had control of government for just a few months short months when Obama came in and the economy was tanking and that had to be addressed first before immigration reform could be tackled. 

 
This has been discussed ad nauseam for years in various threads and although technically true, the Democrats only realistically had control of government for just a few months short months when Obama came in and the economy was tanking and that had to be addressed first before immigration reform could be tackled. 
This is partly true as well, but Stlrams is closer to the truth than you are, IMO.  The Democrats didn't want to tackle the issue again.

 
Democrats had 2 years to push any type of immigration reform and did nothing.  At this point, its the fault of both parties nothing has changed.
The bolded is true. But whenever this happens, the real truth is that the public just disagrees on what to do. As I read the American public:

1. We really want people to stop coming here illegally.

2. Liberals are generally for more immigration, conservatives are generally for less.

3. We're not sure what to do about people already here without papers.

4. A lot of white people are concerned, either consciously or subconsciously, about becoming a minority for the first time as the non-European population increases.

5. Nobody wants to admit #4- not the people who feel that way, and not the people who don't feel that way.

These points don't make a consensus. We're not doing anything because we don't know what the #### to do.

 
This is partly true as well, but Stlrams is closer to the truth than you are, IMO.  The Democrats didn't want to tackle the issue again.
I am pretty sure they did, it was one of the reasons that Obama and the Democrats were elected. However, the actual window of opportunity to get anything done was small and again, during that period, saving the economy was the top priority and after that the votes were not really there to address the issue.

 
15,000 here. 15,000 there. A Honduran restaurant in every town from California to Virginia is just what America needs.

Immigrants start the most businesses they say.

But no reports of government grants they get nor how they sell them to families who also buy them with government grants.

Diseases you thought were eradicated? No silly American. Not from the World just your lilly white Nation.

Before 1965.

When America decided it was more important to not be racist than the health of their posterity.

And from that time the sin Americans have been taught has been their whiteness and their Nation.

They just need to die.

Said some Black billionaire not to long ago speaking of old white racists.

1965-today.

You are getting pretty ####### old and as you learned in university all whites are racist.

This sentiment was repeated lately by a soon to be black billionaire although he also mentioned another group in that rant against old white racists and their slave mentality. 

A mistake he quickly apologized for.

DrOadi

Racist-2017 check

White Nationalist-2018 check

Noticer of things-

 
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Tons of them are thieves. Not very many of them are murderers. 
It only takes one.

To make an impact on your life.

Be not dismayed though.

You as well. 

Can take into your care care the child of an immigrant to prove how racist you aren’t.

Cause it’s not like that illegal  is Russian and white.

Sorry I had to go there with all the Russophobia and majority of illegals aren’t Mexicans we have been propagated with.

 
This is false.
How can we keep people from overrunning the southern border?

There are plenty of people that come to our worst health care in the World northern border.

But they pay for it.

How can we keep people from entering our southern border?

End birth right citizenship. ( sorry crazy rich Asians. Same goes for you on the West)

End non citizen Medicaid payment for your now not an American citizen child’s birth.

No ebt cards or wic checks for anyone.

Oh yes. No more white people are replaced and white people have to subsidize their Nations replacement.

Even white babies.

But being the white birth rate is so low we see why white birth rates are so low.

Am I the racist here? 

Or or have I and my fellow whites been the victim of racism our entire lives?

Taught to hate ourselves and our Nations while demanded of us to get good jobs that insured Europe’s security and free healthcare and the Medicaid paid births of the vast majority of POC births in America from 1965.

A time before I was born.

A time before your child was born.

Who is the racist?

Sorry it always goes back to the word racist.

Something you don’t want to be.

Ignore every thing I typed.

Can not.

Be

Racist.

But don’t stop working and paying taxes so Europe can still enjoy their free health care and Asia can be Asia without America.

Africa can be a place where no African American.

Save the hoteps been told ya.

Africa will even want.

America.

Is just a pay check.

Those longing for freedom have no where else to go.

 
@palmerreport

Donald Trump has kidnapped a bunch of kids and he’s demanding a $5 billion ransom, and now the kids are starting to die. If he were anyone else, in all seriousness, the SWAT team would be moving in on him.

So that’s how far out some view what’s happening. 

 
Oh.  Well, now I feel better.  Apparently I just misjudged you. 
We aren't always what we thought we were. 

No I am not a good person. 

I once asked you where we signed a social compact.

I thought I was a good person.

I thought people desired my desires.

Poland has an expression the communist will never make a fascist of me.

Who signed Poland over to Russia?

America is tired of war.

No. 

No 

Absolutely never. 

Is America tirEd of War. 

Your lifetime tells you this.

D.C. signed over Poland to Communist. 

Last word. 

Autocorrect. 

America is never tired of war.

Even if 97% go to Uni and all of them have to die .

3% don't care about being your worst adjective.

Racist. 

Fascist.

Better learn a new word.

For the American. 

That secured this World. 

And has become tired. 

 
I do. I want to help everybody here that needs help. But- if I am forced ever to choose who to help, I think helping productive people improves our country prosper more than helping unproductive people. That’s a cold hearted, non liberal thing of me to write, but it’s where I’m at. 
The inference that all migrants are productive and all homeless are not is closeminded and flawed. The caravans attempting to get into our country are like any other group of people. Some good, some bad.  What they all share is desperation. Much like our homeless. 

You may see a big difference but there isn’t one. And what your parents and their parents did have nothing to do with you or whether or not you deserve to be here more than somebody who arrived yesterday, with or without papers. 

Do you think your ancestors who arrived in 1635 had proper papers? Were they approved by the local Native American government at the time? 
Why should the descendants of the people who fought and built his country reap the rewards less than someone who did not?

 

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