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How To Get To Heaven When You Die (1 Viewer)

It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?

 
It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?
Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.

If faith in something, whether it be Jesus or Krishna or whoever, helps folks navigate through life in a peaceful way that makes them happy... then so what? Who are we to try and crush that faith? The gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within the person. It isn't "here or there" where it can be seen. Sounds like it takes faith in that statement to believe it. I see people with this type of faith everyday. I live with one in particular. She doesn't care if there wasn't a real global flood, or if Jesus rode one or two donkeys into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, or if two guys named Peter and Paul fought over dietary restrictions or circumcision.

She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.

 
I can relate to what Jayrok is saying very much. As I mentioned before, my life is surrounded by christianity... a result of having been a die hard believer for 30+ years. My wife is still a die hard believer. My kids believe (probably a result of us indoctrinating them). Family, friends.... christianity all around me.

I don't do anything to upset that. Having gone through the exit process, it's painful. It's really painful! I literally had to go through the five stages of grief over an extended period of time. I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

But because this religion is so ingrained with proselytizing (the reason this thread exists), I feel an obligation to warn those who don't believe, but are thinking about it. If it was harmless, then I wouldn't feel obligated to warn them. Afterall, if it's harmless, what's there to warn them about? What's so harmful about Christianity? Well, that could be a thread on it's own, and would be a long one at that. But just for sake of example, I'll throw out two. First of all, I was taught to be a bigot. If you don't know what I mean, just ask any homosexual. And secondly, if I had taken all the money I tithed to the church over those 30+ years and invested it, today at the age of 45, I could retire quite comfortably, instead of having to wait for another 20 years. If people want anymore info on those examples, start another thread, and I'll be happy to divulge on them, as well as the other negative aspects.

In a nutshell, if you believe in Christianity, or any other religion, I have no problem at all with you believing what you want to believe. But I WILL be an opposing argument to christian proselytizing.

 
It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?
Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.

If faith in something, whether it be Jesus or Krishna or whoever, helps folks navigate through life in a peaceful way that makes them happy... then so what? Who are we to try and crush that faith? The gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within the person. It isn't "here or there" where it can be seen. Sounds like it takes faith in that statement to believe it. I see people with this type of faith everyday. I live with one in particular. She doesn't care if there wasn't a real global flood, or if Jesus rode one or two donkeys into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, or if two guys named Peter and Paul fought over dietary restrictions or circumcision.

She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.
Sounds like a perfect summary of what I referred to as wishful thinking.

 
It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?
Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.

If faith in something, whether it be Jesus or Krishna or whoever, helps folks navigate through life in a peaceful way that makes them happy... then so what? Who are we to try and crush that faith? The gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within the person. It isn't "here or there" where it can be seen. Sounds like it takes faith in that statement to believe it. I see people with this type of faith everyday. I live with one in particular. She doesn't care if there wasn't a real global flood, or if Jesus rode one or two donkeys into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, or if two guys named Peter and Paul fought over dietary restrictions or circumcision.

She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.
As a skeptic I agree 100% with the bold. I know many people who take great joy and hope in their belief in god and honestly what harm are they causing?

The problem I have is with those who would use this faith to do terrible things like voting in favor of restricting rights to certain people, wanting to put their faith in classroom science textbooks, or telling women what to do with their bodies, etc. I know so many people who are able to have faith, yet at the same time have a modicum of common sense and take a live and let live approach, that when I see people who aren't able to do this, it's really infuriating.

 
She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.
I wish I could believe in fairy tales.

 
Love the last few posts from Jayrok on.. really really insightful.

Take as an example for comparison someone who knows about world religions, maybe a bit about their various places in history, who knows the earth is 4.7B years old, who thinks much of the Bible has to be allegory (talking snake, flood, burning bush, resurrection), etc.. but then still says hey I know its not rational but I feel better thinking there is something greater, a force, an energy that will allow me to see my family again. Something we don't understand that binds us together. That makes some sense to me. I am envious of such person to an extent.

Then on the other end, and I would argue way more common in real life, are people who grew up with childhood indoctrination, have adhered to one religion their whole life, believes all other religions are somehow silly, goes to church every Sunday to worship Jesus, and thinks homosexuality and condoms are bad because of the Bible. Those are the folks I struggle with. Like to not have ever even considered that maybe their model is wrong. Maybe just maybe there is not an omnipotent power that lives in the sky and created the earth in 6 days.

Again I don't think many folks in the FFA are in the latter category, but I can assure that many many exist IRL, probably the majority.

 
It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?
Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.

If faith in something, whether it be Jesus or Krishna or whoever, helps folks navigate through life in a peaceful way that makes them happy... then so what? Who are we to try and crush that faith? The gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within the person. It isn't "here or there" where it can be seen. Sounds like it takes faith in that statement to believe it. I see people with this type of faith everyday. I live with one in particular. She doesn't care if there wasn't a real global flood, or if Jesus rode one or two donkeys into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, or if two guys named Peter and Paul fought over dietary restrictions or circumcision.

She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.
As a skeptic I agree 100% with the bold. I know many people who take great joy and hope in their belief in god and honestly what harm are they causing?

The problem I have is with those who would use this faith to do terrible things like voting in favor of restricting rights to certain people, wanting to put their faith in classroom science textbooks, or telling women what to do with their bodies, etc. I know so many people who are able to have faith, yet at the same time have a modicum of common sense and take a live and let live approach, that when I see people who aren't able to do this, it's really infuriating.
I like all the examples in the past few posts of what's really wrong with religion and I think they support very well why we can NOT just say, "Who are we to crush that faith?". And there are a whole bunch more; brainwashing of children, suppression of science, teaching intolerance..... But, we're forgetting the most obvious of all examples: Faith in God and religion is the only thing short of mental illness that I am aware of, and in a way maybe it is a mental illness, that makes people not only murder but give their own life while doing so.

 
It is great to chat again with you folks about some serious heady topics in a way that is often not easy to get into in real world conversations.

I agree that inerrancy may have done more harm than good for Christianity. When people fight for inerrant scripture, I believe they miss the whole point of the writings. Apologists and their arguments tend to push more people away than they think. But pride and the need to be right tend to blind them, I suppose.
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Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.
I agree with your views about apologetics and that Christian apologetics is often a flawed endevour, especially when done honestly for the very reason you state. My approach is to gather as much evidence as I can and present that honestly, ackowledging that there are limitations to what that evidence can tell us and that ultimately, the decision to believe is one of faith beyond what that evidence can really tell us.

I have seen that science and medicine work in much the same way when those in the sciences are honest with themselves. We have strong evidence that a certain test result in this many patients in the past with this clinical picture suggests this pathology but often knowning for sure in the patient in front of you needs some element of faith in a lot of evidence with varying levels of confidence. Sure we are more confident in that kind of data than religious data that is usually more subjective and degraded with time. But the process is similar.

And like trying to explain to patients who may disagree with a diagnosis, all I can do is present rational arguments in a civil manner that is respectful and understanding of differences in opinion ackowledging that it is possible that I could be wrong and they could be right. The ultimate decision to believe and do something about it is theirs.

 
But I am going to pick one and attempt to show why I think the apologist is wrong and why.
By Matt Slick (awesome name), President and founder of CARM (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry).


His first point under "When were the Gospels written & by whom?" is that none of the gospels or Acts mention the destruction of the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70. He reasons that since the gospels record that Jesus prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed, surely the writers would have included it to show prophecy fulfilled, if they were written after AD 70. This makes no sense, especially for the gospels. The gospels are written to capture the time when Jesus was alive and teaching his disciples. They end around, give or take, the time of Jesus' ascension. They are also allegedly written by those who were eye-witnesses to Jesus (sans Luke). Why would an author, perhaps writing in the second century, mention an event that happened four decades after the time frame of his story... if he wanted readers to believe he was an eye-witness to the same events?

But what about Luke? It is believed the author of Luke also wrote Acts as a second volume from Luke to Theophilus (perhaps Luke's patron or financier). Why doesn't Acts mention the destruction of the Temple? It is believed to be a sort of history from the ascension of Jesus to the proceedings of the early Church. Mr. Slick believes the Temple destruction is not included because Acts was written before it happened, prior to AD 70. But why would Luke mention this historic event?

I believe it is not mentioned because it doesn't fit into Luke's motif with regards to Acts. Acts also doesn't mention Paul's death, another reason Mr. Slick feels it was written much prior to AD 70. But why would it? Luke is showing his readers a proclamation made by Jesus at the beginning of Acts to its fulfillment at the end of Acts. It isn't about prophecy, it's about the promised word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. The author indicates that he is aware of Paul's death based on Paul's speech from Miletus (Acts 20:25-38). But Paul's death doesn't fit into his purpose for Acts. In fact it would be anticlimactic.

Acts begins with Jesus telling his disciples "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts ends in chapter 28 with "for two whole years Paul stayed there [in Rome] in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ--with all boldness and without hindrance!"

Between these two theological bookends, Paul is the reflection of how the early church went from a Jewish Christian sect to one that successfully reached the gentile world through Rome and beyond. Saul becomes Paul (Saul being the dogmatic pharisees set to wipe out this new threat to Judaism, and Paul being the enlightened convert who takes the message of salvation, free from Jewish restrictions, to the rest of the world), and thus is born a catalyst that will carry the gospel of grace, "with boldness and without hindrance", to the world of the gentiles. At the end of Acts, Paul is alive and well and speaking freely about Jesus Christ.. in Rome! (the capital of the oppressors of his own country).

This was Luke's intention. He answers the question of how the news of salvation reached the gentiles. How the faith evolved from the Jewish disciples, who were told to go to the children of Israel and adhered to Jewish traditions/rituals, to the newest band of disciples (Paul's group) who taught how the true message was for all men, not just the house of Israel, but Jew and gentile alike.

Including Paul's death would hinder his theological purpose for writing Acts. There are other theological points about Acts that indicate Luke was not just recording church history. For one, he wasn't interested in including the destruction of the Temple because, aside from the reasons previously mentioned, he didn't want his readers to get the impression he was suggesting that Judaism was dead. Rather, he set to show that Paul's message was a natural progression of the faith to include the gentiles. Who else to deliver this progression but Paul, a reformed Pharisee!

So it didn't replace Judaism, but reformed it in such a way that allowed the message to be accepted beyond Jerusalem and the Jewish diaspora (remember Jesus' statements at the beginning of Acts... "to the ends of the earth"... Luke answers this proclamation with Paul, his reformed Pharisee with his reformed message). This is why, IMO, Paul is a much different person in Acts than he is portrayed in the Epistles. Luke tones him down to be more in line with the rest of the Apostles... perhaps a less Gnostic Paul to a more orthodox Catholic Paul. But that is another story.


Edit to add: tl;dr version... Acts isn't about fulfilling prophecy or writing actual mundane history. It should be viewed as the theological document that it is. As such, the actual dating of the document is not as important as the message it presents. I think if people viewed the gospels and Acts as such, they wouldn't get too caught up in trying to fit square pegs into round holes and then arguing about it.
 
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It's easy (fun?) to debate back and forth with apologists, but it ultimately gets us nowhere. I honestly don't think they have a leg to stand on, if we're talking about real, strong evidence. If we're honest with ourselves, faith/belief is just that. It's not scientific or rational. What's more fascinating to me at the moment is why one person looks at an event in their life and feels a connection to a supernatural being, and another feels nothing. Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the believer? An inability to explain the event in rational terms? I'd love to hear more anecdotes from the believers concerning such events in their lives, and why they think/feel there is a connection to a god?
Faith isn't about evidence. It isn't about proof. This is where apologists come off the rails of being useful to many they think they are protecting, IMO.

If faith in something, whether it be Jesus or Krishna or whoever, helps folks navigate through life in a peaceful way that makes them happy... then so what? Who are we to try and crush that faith? The gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within the person. It isn't "here or there" where it can be seen. Sounds like it takes faith in that statement to believe it. I see people with this type of faith everyday. I live with one in particular. She doesn't care if there wasn't a real global flood, or if Jesus rode one or two donkeys into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, or if two guys named Peter and Paul fought over dietary restrictions or circumcision.

She has faith that the short life we have on this planet is not the end. She has faith that she will see deceased loved ones again one day where they will all live happily ever after. She puts her faith in Jesus and that faith gives her hope and peace. It's hard to argue against that.
As a skeptic I agree 100% with the bold. I know many people who take great joy and hope in their belief in god and honestly what harm are they causing?

The problem I have is with those who would use this faith to do terrible things like voting in favor of restricting rights to certain people, wanting to put their faith in classroom science textbooks, or telling women what to do with their bodies, etc. I know so many people who are able to have faith, yet at the same time have a modicum of common sense and take a live and let live approach, that when I see people who aren't able to do this, it's really infuriating.
I like all the examples in the past few posts of what's really wrong with religion and I think they support very well why we can NOT just say, "Who are we to crush that faith?". And there are a whole bunch more; brainwashing of children, suppression of science, teaching intolerance..... But, we're forgetting the most obvious of all examples: Faith in God and religion is the only thing short of mental illness that I am aware of, and in a way maybe it is a mental illness, that makes people not only murder but give their own life while doing so.
Granted, what you are saying is true with regards to how some use their faith to harm others. It's why I included "in a peaceful way" in my comment. My wife has no desire to walk into an abortion clinic and shoot someone or go on some other rampage in the name of her savior. And she does not teach intolerance or brainwash children to be intolerant. I believe the majority of people with faith are in this category. Yes, there are radicals and lunatics. But to many, faith is a healthy state of mind.

 
I can relate to what Jayrok is saying very much. As I mentioned before, my life is surrounded by christianity... a result of having been a die hard believer for 30+ years. My wife is still a die hard believer. My kids believe (probably a result of us indoctrinating them). Family, friends.... christianity all around me.

I don't do anything to upset that. Having gone through the exit process, it's painful. It's really painful! I literally had to go through the five stages of grief over an extended period of time. I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

But because this religion is so ingrained with proselytizing (the reason this thread exists), I feel an obligation to warn those who don't believe, but are thinking about it. If it was harmless, then I wouldn't feel obligated to warn them. Afterall, if it's harmless, what's there to warn them about? What's so harmful about Christianity? Well, that could be a thread on it's own, and would be a long one at that. But just for sake of example, I'll throw out two. First of all, I was taught to be a bigot. If you don't know what I mean, just ask any homosexual. And secondly, if I had taken all the money I tithed to the church over those 30+ years and invested it, today at the age of 45, I could retire quite comfortably, instead of having to wait for another 20 years. If people want anymore info on those examples, start another thread, and I'll be happy to divulge on them, as well as the other negative aspects.

In a nutshell, if you believe in Christianity, or any other religion, I have no problem at all with you believing what you want to believe. But I WILL be an opposing argument to christian proselytizing.
I guess my journey of faith took me in a different direction possibly because of the phenomenon of postmodern Christianity. It started in the late 90s early 2000s within Christianity, primarily evangelicals looking at themselves in the mirror and not liking a lot of the things you guys mention here: Christian apologetics, approach of Christians towards outsiders (other denominations, other religious people, non-religious people, homosexuals, etc), approach to theology, approach to proselytizing/missions, the structure of church, etc. Some ended up starting their own churches and calling themselves emerging or emergent churches.

Brian McLaren's books "A New Kind of Christian" and "A Generous Orthodoxy" were both quite influential to the movement initially and I think articulate the issues well. Like most Christian movements, we oversteer and go too far in response to something and since then the emerging church has taken many twists and turns and some have become that which they were initially opposed to or something else that barely resembles Christianity. But I think the movement is an important one for traditional churches to reflect on what we are doing and how we approach those who differ in an increasingly postmodern and post-Christian world.

I encourage those of you who are Christians reading this and thinking about these issues to have a gander at those books. Many conservative Christians will view these books as heretical and D.A. Carson's "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church" is a fair critique of the emerging church that may be more your cup of tea but will still expose you the very real problems facing evangelical/conservative/traditional Christianity in a postmodern world.

I chose to stay within the evangelical church although being a Sydney Anglican is decidedly different from being a Southern Baptist in much of the US. I used to be and still identify with Baptists in Toronto. And I have many different views from my pastors, fellow members and my wife. But that is ok and like this board, we are on this journey together all trying to do the same thing which is to explore the evidence with or without faith and discover whether God is real and how that affects our lives.

 
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The very genesis of organized religion's drossy biases is in propagandism. And it seems to me to be a neat bit of historic justice that it will eventually itself be destroyed by propagandism. Christianity's lapdogs unwaveringly whitewash its stolid gibes and denounce its competitors as rummy stuffed shirts. Although I prefer appealing to evidence and logic, most religion is driven purely by emotion and anxiety. That's why it's hard to convince the various clergy members that there are some troubling issues here, even putting aside the basic question of whether or not it hopes to finance a propaganda of intensive deception that induces sane and sober people to reduce meaningful political discussions to “my team versus your team” identity-based politics. For instance, Christianity alleges that it can make all of our problems go away merely by sprinkling some sort of magic pink pixie dust over everything that it considers uninformed or superstitious. Sorry, but I have to call foul on that one. Although theoretical differences can be drawn between Religion's sophomoric insults and rash Bourbonism, these are distinctions without a difference.

 
Granted, what you are saying is true with regards to how some use their faith to harm others. It's why I included "in a peaceful way" in my comment. My wife has no desire to walk into an abortion clinic and shoot someone or go on some other rampage in the name of her savior. And she does not teach intolerance or brainwash children to be intolerant. I believe the majority of people with faith are in this category. Yes, there are radicals and lunatics. But to many, faith is a healthy state of mind.
I'm not sure what faith being a healthy state of mind means. Whatever psychological effect it has for your wife I'm almost certain you can be healthy in the mind without religion.

The "majority" of religious people falling into the peaceful category doesn't make me feel any better either. I mean that's one of our country's biggest problems and presidential campaign topics currently right? How do we identify which of these Muslims coming into our country (without profiling) are the radical Muslims that might want to be the next suicide bomber at our shopping mall because his religion tells him to die a martyr and he will go to heaven with 72 virgins.

We assign words like "radical" and "fundamentalist" and suddenly the focus is off the root cause of the problem and we've just relabeled them as "crazy' or "lunatics" like you just did in your second to last sentence. These people aren't crazy, they really really believe this #### and it's a sociological problem directly caused by religion. Religion needs to start owning up to all the problems it's caused.

PS. I just can't help wonder if you intentionally chose Krishna over Allah when you started to list out your examples of gods. ;)

 
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But, we're forgetting the most obvious of all examples: Faith in God and religion is the only thing short of mental illness that I am aware of, and in a way maybe it is a mental illness, that makes people not only murder but give their own life while doing so.
Tamil Tigers?

They obviously were not motivated by their Marxism/atheism, but to say that eliminating religion will eliminate suicide bombing is a fallacy. Without religion, there will be other reasons for people to murder, commit terrorism and perform suicide bombings. Religion gives some people an easy framework to justify their actions, but atheists are not immune.

 
I can relate to what Jayrok is saying very much. As I mentioned before, my life is surrounded by christianity... a result of having been a die hard believer for 30+ years. My wife is still a die hard believer. My kids believe (probably a result of us indoctrinating them). Family, friends.... christianity all around me.

I don't do anything to upset that. Having gone through the exit process, it's painful. It's really painful! I literally had to go through the five stages of grief over an extended period of time. I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

But because this religion is so ingrained with proselytizing (the reason this thread exists), I feel an obligation to warn those who don't believe, but are thinking about it. If it was harmless, then I wouldn't feel obligated to warn them. Afterall, if it's harmless, what's there to warn them about? What's so harmful about Christianity? Well, that could be a thread on it's own, and would be a long one at that. But just for sake of example, I'll throw out two. First of all, I was taught to be a bigot. If you don't know what I mean, just ask any homosexual. And secondly, if I had taken all the money I tithed to the church over those 30+ years and invested it, today at the age of 45, I could retire quite comfortably, instead of having to wait for another 20 years. If people want anymore info on those examples, start another thread, and I'll be happy to divulge on them, as well as the other negative aspects.

In a nutshell, if you believe in Christianity, or any other religion, I have no problem at all with you believing what you want to believe. But I WILL be an opposing argument to christian proselytizing.
I guess my journey of faith took me in a different direction possibly because of the phenomenon of postmodern Christianity. It started in the late 90s early 2000s within Christianity, primarily evangelicals looking at themselves in the mirror and not liking a lot of the things you guys mention here: Christian apologetics, approach of Christians towards outsiders (other denominations, other religious people, non-religious people, homosexuals, etc), approach to theology, approach to proselytizing/missions, the structure of church, etc. Some ended up starting their own churches and calling themselves emerging or emergent churches.

Brian McLaren's books "A New Kind of Christian" and "A Generous Orthodoxy" were both quite influential to the movement initially and I think articulate the issues well. Like most Christian movements, we oversteer and go too far in response to something and since then the emerging church has taken many twists and turns and some have become that which they were initially opposed to or something else that barely resembles Christianity. But I think the movement is an important one for traditional churches to reflect on what we are doing and how we approach those who differ in an increasingly postmodern and post-Christian world.

I encourage those of you who are Christians reading this and thinking about these issues to have a gander at those books. Many conservative Christians will view these books as heretical and D.A. Carson's "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church" is a fair critique of the emerging church that may be more your cup of tea but will still expose you the very real problems facing evangelical/conservative/traditional Christianity in a postmodern world.

I chose to stay within the evangelical church although being a Sydney Anglican is decidedly different from being a Southern Baptist in much of the US. I used to be and still identify with Baptists in Toronto. And I have many different views from my pastors, fellow members and my wife. But that is ok and like this board, we are on this journey together all trying to do the same thing which is to explore the evidence with or without faith and discover whether God is real and how that affects our lives.
The bolded isn't a small issue. If you are in a situation like mine where your entire life is surrounded by christianity, if you take even a small step into what is viewed as heresy, you might as well become an atheist. You will be treated the same.

 
The bolded isn't a small issue. If you are in a situation like mine where your entire life is surrounded by christianity, if you take even a small step into what is viewed as heresy, you might as well become an atheist. You will be treated the same.
My Christian environment may not be as closed to different views as yours. In fact it was other members in my Baptist church in Toronto who introduced me to postmodern Christianity. My current environment in Sydney Anglicanism is more critical of postmodern Christianity but willing to engage. I'm sure people question things about my views but if your words and your life reflect sincerity, thoughtfulness and care for others, it impacts much more than any apologetic arguments.

I have posted my views on hardcore baptist message boards dominated by fundamentalists and Southern Baptists (I know, I'm a glutton for punishment). And even though most do not agree with me, only a small extreme portion will call me non-Christian. I am able to have some great conversations with amazing Christians who differ greatly with me on significant views but still share a lot in common.

Of course I don't go picking fights with people intentionally and I approach these topics understanding that people have different views from me. I try to focus on what we have in common rather than how we differ, while acknowledging and trying to communicate valid reasons for those differences that are often difficult to reconcile or maybe irreconcilable.

If they call me heretic, I am in good company with folks like Gallileo, Martin Luther, etc.

 
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But, we're forgetting the most obvious of all examples: Faith in God and religion is the only thing short of mental illness that I am aware of, and in a way maybe it is a mental illness, that makes people not only murder but give their own life while doing so.
Tamil Tigers? They obviously were not motivated by their Marxism/atheism, but to say that eliminating religion will eliminate suicide bombing is a fallacy. Without religion, there will be other reasons for people to murder, commit terrorism and perform suicide bombings. Religion gives some people an easy framework to justify their actions, but atheists are not immune.
Right, Talin Tigers are mostly Hindu, the Hindu religion. And Marxism isn't a synonym for atheism, nice try but that's a long dead beaten horse. Not sure why, or what your point was to interject that into the middle of your response.ETA: Not saying the Tigers are doing it in the name of their religion, but, if you believe you are doing the right thing compiled with 1) life after death and 2) you might be rewarded for your efforts after death that just seems to piss on any survival mechanism our species relies on.

 
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proninja said:
The more articulate the post/argument is in favor of religion.. the less genuine it feels.
Or, possibly, the less it lines up with your assumptions, the less genuine you assume it must be? (you do have biases, you know)
Meh, the I'm a doctor therefore I'm smart and I I use subjective evidence in medicine therefore all the subjective evidence for God I deem is true routine is tired. Despite the lack of any examples of this subjective evidence to talk about. Feels like a polite paddington.

 
But, we're forgetting the most obvious of all examples: Faith in God and religion is the only thing short of mental illness that I am aware of, and in a way maybe it is a mental illness, that makes people not only murder but give their own life while doing so.
Tamil Tigers? They obviously were not motivated by their Marxism/atheism, but to say that eliminating religion will eliminate suicide bombing is a fallacy. Without religion, there will be other reasons for people to murder, commit terrorism and perform suicide bombings. Religion gives some people an easy framework to justify their actions, but atheists are not immune.
Right, Talin Tigers are mostly Hindu, the Hindu religion. And Marxism isn't a synonym for atheism, nice try but that's a long dead beaten horse. Not sure why, or what your point was to interject that into the middle of your response.
You are correct about the Marxism/atheism juxtaposition. My apologies.

While the Tamil Tiger members were mostly Hindus the organization and the cause were secular. Yes, religious symbolism was used in their propoganda to motivate suicide attacks. But, their suicides were not for religious reasons and not related to any afterlife.

 
Feels like a polite paddington.
Politeness goes a long way. I'm Canadian so it's in my DNA. :)

I terms of my subjective evidence, you have already dismissed all of it as having no value so why go through the rigmorole?

I'm a doctor but lots of us are not very smart and should not be listened to. I may be one of those. I'll let you be the judge and ignore me as you see fit.

 
Granted, what you are saying is true with regards to how some use their faith to harm others. It's why I included "in a peaceful way" in my comment. My wife has no desire to walk into an abortion clinic and shoot someone or go on some other rampage in the name of her savior. And she does not teach intolerance or brainwash children to be intolerant. I believe the majority of people with faith are in this category. Yes, there are radicals and lunatics. But to many, faith is a healthy state of mind.
I'm not sure what faith being a healthy state of mind means. Whatever psychological effect it has for your wife I'm almost certain you can be healthy in the mind without religion.

The "majority" of religious people falling into the peaceful category doesn't make me feel any better either. I mean that's one of our country's biggest problems and presidential campaign topics currently right? How do we identify which of these Muslims coming into our country (without profiling) are the radical Muslims that might want to be the next suicide bomber at our shopping mall because his religion tells him to die a martyr and he will go to heaven with 72 virgins.

We assign words like "radical" and "fundamentalist" and suddenly the focus is off the root cause of the problem and we've just relabeled them as "crazy' or "lunatics" like you just did in your second to last sentence. These people aren't crazy, they really really believe this #### and it's a sociological problem directly caused by religion. Religion needs to start owning up to all the problems it's caused.

PS. I just can't help wonder if you intentionally chose Krishna over Allah when you started to list out your examples of gods. ;)
It only means that, in my view, the person's faith I'm talking about seems to result in a healthy state of mind - for her. I may have chosen the wrong words. Sorry about that.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. Religion is responsible for some really bad things. I don't imagine the religious institutions will own up to the problems it has caused over the centuries. But I believe that religion is also responsible for some really good things. I know those aren't the things you are talking about.

Krishna was the first to cross my mind. I would include Allah in the lot, along with Isis, Zeus, Odin, Bacchus, Baal, Horus, Osiris, Serapis, Simon Magus, Ash, Ra... the list is too long.

 
proninja said:
proninja said:
The more articulate the post/argument is in favor of religion.. the less genuine it feels.
Or, possibly, the less it lines up with your assumptions, the less genuine you assume it must be? (you do have biases, you know)
Meh, the I'm a doctor therefore I'm smart and I I use subjective evidence in medicine therefore all the subjective evidence for God I deem is true routine is tired. Despite the lack of any examples of this subjective evidence to talk about. Feels like a polite paddington.
He's talking about faith. What kind of evidence do you expect?
The kind doctors expect, given he established his doctoral status as being important to his point.

 
proninja said:
The more articulate the post/argument is in favor of religion.. the less genuine it feels.
Or, possibly, the less it lines up with your assumptions, the less genuine you assume it must be? (you do have biases, you know)
Not at all. If it were something other than trying really hard, it would work. Unfortunately the harder you try to argue for invisible beings, the worse it comes off.

These long posts where the amount of words are used in lieu of evidence are the worst of the worst. Referring repeatedly and again to evidence (of any sort), yet providing none.

In the end, the best and most suitable explanation for belief I have come to hear is - "I just do".

 
proninja said:
proninja said:
The more articulate the post/argument is in favor of religion.. the less genuine it feels.
Or, possibly, the less it lines up with your assumptions, the less genuine you assume it must be? (you do have biases, you know)
Meh, the I'm a doctor therefore I'm smart and I I use subjective evidence in medicine therefore all the subjective evidence for God I deem is true routine is tired. Despite the lack of any examples of this subjective evidence to talk about. Feels like a polite paddington.
He's talking about faith. What kind of evidence do you expect?
The kind doctors expect, given he established his doctoral status as being important to his point.
He referred multiple times in multiple posts to how much evidence there is. Then of course ignores the requests for it.

 
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That guy is the proof? I'm more depressed than ever. I do wish it were true...
You wish there is a hell?It's hard to believe we need a place called hell. - INXS
Yeah because then heaven would be true as well, right?
Why do both have to exist? I mean really, think about it. When our kids have a pet that dies, we tell them they've gone to pet heaven. But if one can't exist without the other, then why do we tell our kids their pet went to pet heaven when they could have just as easily gone to pet hell?

 
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Well if it's the only alternative I would hope it does not exist.

Why do we have to say anything when a person, animal etc. dies? The ones saying darn well don't know what they are saying is true and it's a really good chance it's not true, at least in my book.

Why can't we just say "that person died and doesn't exist anymore and we will miss him/her" ?

 
If there being a pet heaven implies a pet hell, then what pets would ever qualify as going to pet hell? Pets are universally awesome and the times you hear of pit bulls or rottweliers attacking someone is just due to instinct or poor training.

 
If there being a pet heaven implies a pet hell, then what pets would ever qualify as going to pet hell? Pets are universally awesome and the times you hear of pit bulls or rottweliers attacking someone is just due to instinct or poor training.
I'm pretty sure every cat that has ever died is in pet hell.

 
Well if it's the only alternative I would hope it does not exist.

Why do we have to say anything when a person, animal etc. dies? The ones saying darn well don't know what they are saying is true and it's a really good chance it's not true, at least in my book.

Why can't we just say "that person died and doesn't exist anymore and we will miss him/her" ?
We've talked about it before, but, it's the believers that are the worst at funerals. I mean if they truly believe in heaven why do they take it so hard? Seems like it wouldn't be that big of deal, I mean sure they'll miss that person for a few years but after that it's nothing but glorious ever after. Logic would say they should be celebrating not mourning. That's always baffled me.

 
If there being a pet heaven implies a pet hell, then what pets would ever qualify as going to pet hell? Pets are universally awesome and the times you hear of pit bulls or rottweliers attacking someone is just due to instinct or poor training.
The same could be said about humans! :lol:
 
Well if it's the only alternative I would hope it does not exist.

Why do we have to say anything when a person, animal etc. dies? The ones saying darn well don't know what they are saying is true and it's a really good chance it's not true, at least in my book.

Why can't we just say "that person died and doesn't exist anymore and we will miss him/her" ?
We've talked about it before, but, it's the believers that are the worst at funerals. I mean if they truly believe in heaven why do they take it so hard? Seems like it wouldn't be that big of deal, I mean sure they'll miss that person for a few years but after that it's nothing but glorious ever after. Logic would say they should be celebrating not mourning. That's always baffled me.
If you put as much effort into making the world a better place as you do portraying religious people as ####heads, there would be no war or disease.

How many lies did you squeeze into so few words? Four? Five?

 

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