Vincesanity
Footballguy
Thought on Boykin? Is he a potentially Top 50 NFL PICK?
Lets go back to the original statement "no devy WRs that you would invest in....Cannon/Coleman are worth a look" which means you're higher on both of them.Cannon was listed at 175 on Baylor's official site last year. He's never going to be a huge receiver, but he doesn't look dangerously skinny either and he has a chance to get bigger given that he hasn't even spent a full year on campus in the weight program yet. Considering what type of WR he is, he doesn't have to get huge to be effective. Guys like Chad Johnson, Jeremy Maclin, T.Y. Hilton, and DeSean Jackson certainly weren't/aren't.
I think another important thing to remember is that he was a first year collegiate player last season. Straight out of high school. You usually don't see great stats from those guys at WR. So nitpicking the breakdown of his production seems a bit misguided at this point. I don't think it makes sense to get too picky with a true freshman. Especially not at a position like QB, TE, or WR. Given the learning curve of those positions and the steep jump from HS to CFB, you expect them not to be consistent producers every week. For example, Laquon Treadwell had zero 100+ yard games as a true freshman and only two games of 60+ yards, but didn't you take him top 5 in our devy draft after that season? I think it's understood that even most eventual NFL receivers aren't going to come in and stack up 1400+ yards as true freshmen. What's more important is to evaluate the potential and try to predict what the player might become with another 1-2 years of seasoning. In Cannon's case, he looks like a good bet to at least become a top 100 draft pick, if not top 50.
Where do you rank him among overall devy WRs?You question Cannon's competition but not Corey Davis'? I generally stay away from sub-200lb WRs unless they really stand out, and Cannon does.I liked DeSean coming out a lot, took him over Devin Thomas pre nfl draft in one league in fact.None of those guys are close to DJax. It's obvious you haven't watched either Cannon or DJax of you think they're both just "speed".Or insert any fast player...Phillip dorsett, Lockett, dri archer, marqise Goodwin, Tavon Austin, etc. Speed is only one factor and others are more important in a wr.Xue said:Cannon is the closet thing to DeSean Jackson.Kd cannon and Corey Coleman aren't even in my top 20 wrs.
My point was more to ebf than you. But 160 pound speedsters haven't stuck in the FF world often. Then look at the Baylor wrs: wright, williams, goodley, robbie rhodes, tevin reese, norwood. They've produced huge numbers in a wide open offense. One wr2 season in ff and the future doesnt look bright.
I've watched a lot of Cannon, he's a hands catcher that tracks the ball well and is fast. But let's also keep in mind that 40% of his yards and 50% of his touchdowns came against northwestern state and buffalo.
I like Cannon but I'm not investing a high pick in a 160 lb WR in a wr friendly scheme. I see many more players that present better value.
That's going to vary a bit from year to year, but for me Chubb is worth a mid first. I believe he is a better RB prospect than Gurley or Gordon, so it's mostly just a matter of the time discount and the possibility of injury. I would say Elliott, Henry, and Treadwell (probably my next cluster) are worth a mid-late first depending on how much you like them.I have a question for you devy veterans that is more theory based. Using this years draft as a template, assuming the rookie/devy player pool is undiminished, when do you start taking your top 4-6 devy guys?
It depends on a few factors: realistic expectations of your current team, your patience as an owner, what you value.I have a question for you devy veterans that is more theory based. Using this years draft as a template, assuming the rookie/devy player pool is undiminished, when do you start taking your top 4-6 devy guys?
Booker is way too high. Shocked Harris went that far in front of Guice....I have Guice #1 out of the freshman. Also think Malone is too low.Just completed this 2-rounder. 3rd year, with 33 Devys already rostered. 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 2Flex https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t_U6nIPpCql60TT9k2ZvcOg/htmlview
1.01 Nick Chubb
1.02 Rashard Higgins
1.03 Devontae Booker
1.04 De'Runnya Wilson
1.05 Corey Davis
1.06 Royce Freeman
1.07 Mike Williams
1.08 Damien Harris
1.09 JuJu Smith
1.10 James Conner
1.11 Artavis Scott
1.12 Tajae Sharpe
2.01 Jordan Villamin
2.02 Josh Doctson
2.03 Leonte Carroo
2.04 Pharoh Cooper
2.05 Calvin Ridley
2.06 Bucky Hodges
2.07 Derrius Guice
2.08 George Campbell
2.09 Michael Thomas
2.10 Josh Malone
2.11 Allen Lazard
2.12 Robert Foster
Owner traded back from 1.11 to 2.02. Ended up getting 2.10 in the deal. Got Doctson, Malone and Lazard. I only had one pick and took Freeman at 1.06. I thought that was really good value.Booker is way too high. Shocked Harris went that far in front of Guice....I have Guice #1 out of the freshman. Also think Malone is too low.Just completed this 2-rounder. 3rd year, with 33 Devys already rostered. 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 2Flex https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t_U6nIPpCql60TT9k2ZvcOg/htmlview
1.01 Nick Chubb
1.02 Rashard Higgins
1.03 Devontae Booker
1.04 De'Runnya Wilson
1.05 Corey Davis
1.06 Royce Freeman
1.07 Mike Williams
1.08 Damien Harris
1.09 JuJu Smith
1.10 James ConnerThe
1.11 Artavis Scott
1.12 Tajae Sharpe
2.01 Jordan Villamin
2.02 Josh Doctson
2.03 Leonte Carroo
2.04 Pharoh Cooper
2.05 Calvin Ridley
2.06 Bucky Hodges
2.07 Derrius Guice
2.08 George Campbell
2.09 Michael Thomas
2.10 Josh Malone
2.11 Allen Lazard
2.12 Robert Foster
Phenomz Dynasty Draft results (14 teams, 4 rounds, each team allowed one college player per roster)
1.05: Tyler Boyd, WR, Pitt
for value reference: 1.06 = Tevin Coleman, 1.07 = DeVante Parker, 1.08 = Breshad Perriman
Wow.Phenomz Dynasty Draft results (14 teams, 4 rounds, each team allowed one college player per roster)
Selected last yr and already rostered:
- Laquon Treadwell, WR, Ole Miss
- Derrick Henry, RB, Alabama
----
1.01: Ezekial Elliott, RB, Ohio St
1.02: Nick Chubb, RB, Georgia
for value reference: 1.03 = Kevin White, 1.04 = Ameer Abdullah
1.05: Tyler Boyd, WR, Pitt
for value reference: 1.06 = Tevin Coleman, 1.07 = DeVante Parker, 1.08 = Breshad Perriman
1.14: Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU
2.04: Jonathan Williams, RB, Arkansas
2.07: Samaje Perine, RB, Oklahoma
3.09: Corey Clement, RB, Wisconsin
3.11: Duke Williams, WR, Auburn
3.13: Cory Davis, WR, Western Michigan
4.03: Michael Thomas, WR, Ohio St.
4.10: Mike Williams, WR, Clemson
4.13: Devontae Booker, RB, Uta
Back to that again I see. Tell that to Marvin Harrison, DeSean Jackson, and Antonio Brown. You were inclusive with the height / weight, so unless you mean "or" after mentioning height/weight and before speed/athleticism, I stand by what I said.Phenomz Dynasty Draft results (14 teams, 4 rounds, each team allowed one college player per roster)
1.05: Tyler Boyd, WR, Pitt
for value reference: 1.06 = Tevin Coleman, 1.07 = DeVante Parker, 1.08 = Breshad Perriman
Not sure the love for this guy is justified. Unless I'm severely underestimating him, he doesn't look like he has great athletic tools for the next level. I don't care how skilled a WR is -- if he doesn't have a certain base level of height/weight/speed athleticism then he's not going to thrive in the NFL. Boyd's listed height/weight of 6'2" 190 is super skinny and he would need to blaze in the 40 to look viable at that size.
Parker almost seems like the best-case-scenario for Boyd, so it's weird to see Boyd picked higher. Not sure that move makes any sense.
You've said this before and I respectfully disagree. Michel isn't even close to the #3 devy rb for me.After Chubb and Elliot I'd take Sony Michel. No one is talking about him. I had a scout personally tell me he has never seen a player like him before. Granted that was four or five years ago I think Sony was like 15 years old but I wouldn't hesitate to take him if Chubb and Elliot or gone when my time rolls around which they will probably be gone.
Tex
He was drafted between Villamin and Whitney, I'd have picked him instead of Whitney had he been there. Probably could still get Whitney with my last pick, so I'd have been short a McManus,I'd actually like to see him do it on a Saturday before investing anymore in him. Wouldn't be the first toolsy prospect to never realize his potential.BigTex said:After Chubb and Elliot I'd take Sony Michel. No one is talking about him. I had a scout personally tell me he has never seen a player like him before. Granted that was four or five years ago I think Sony was like 15 years old but I wouldn't hesitate to take him if Chubb and Elliot or gone when my time rolls around which they will probably be gone.
Tex
4. Saquon Barkley, RB PennOngoing devy draft, my first of the year. One round, 14 owners. Will update as it goes along, no clock right now.
Players owned already: Chubb, Dupre, Fournette, Mike Williams, Lazard, Corey Davis, Corey Clement, Josh Malone.
Draft:
1. Dalvin Cook, RB FSU
2. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR USC
3. Christian McCaffrey, RB Stanford
Update:Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
Also: Corey Davis, Hodges, Clement, Scarborough, Tyner, Dupre, Guice, and Merritt.Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
Update:Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
1.01 - JuJu Smith Schuster WR USC
1.02 - Saquon Barkley RB Penn St.
1.03 - Christian McCaffrey RB Standord
1.04 - Calvin Ridley WR Alabama
1.05 - Christian (Captain) Kirk WR Tex A & M
1.06 - Elijah Wood RB UNC
1.07 - Damien Harris RB Alabama
1.08 - Mike Williams WR Clemson
1.09 - Myles Gaskin RB Washington
1.10 - Jalen Hurd RB Tenn
1.11 -
1.12 -
1.13 -
1.14 -
A little surprised Kirk went ahead of Williams. Maybe the neck injury had an impact.UpdatedUpdate:Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
1.01 - JuJu Smith Schuster WR USC
1.02 - Saquon Barkley RB Penn St.
1.03 - Christian McCaffrey RB Standord
1.04 - Calvin Ridley WR Alabama
1.05 - Christian (Captain) Kirk WR Tex A & M
1.06 - Elijah Wood RB UNC
1.07 - Damien Harris RB Alabama
1.08 - Mike Williams WR Clemson
1.09 - Myles Gaskin RB Washington
1.10 -
1.11 -
1.12 -
1.13 -
1.14 -
Demetris Robertson hasn't even committed to UGA yet.Finished draft.
PPR, start 2-4 RB. My picks bolded.
1. Dalvin Cook, RB FSU
2. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR USC
3. Christian McCaffrey, RB Stanford
4. Saquon Barkley, RB Penn
5. Derrius Guice, RB LSU
6. Christian Kirk, WR Texas A&M
7. Deon Cain, WR Clemson
8. Calvin Ridley, WR Alabama
9. Jalen Hurd, RB TEN
10. Samaje Perine, RB Oklahoma
11. Bo Scarbrough, RB Alabama
12. Elijah Hood, RB UNC
13. Ronald Jones II, RB USC
14. Demetris Robertson, WR UGA
That was the most off the wall pick to me. Didn't see it coming at all.Demetris Robertson hasn't even committed to UGA yet.Finished draft.
PPR, start 2-4 RB. My picks bolded.
1. Dalvin Cook, RB FSU
2. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR USC
3. Christian McCaffrey, RB Stanford
4. Saquon Barkley, RB Penn
5. Derrius Guice, RB LSU
6. Christian Kirk, WR Texas A&M
7. Deon Cain, WR Clemson
8. Calvin Ridley, WR Alabama
9. Jalen Hurd, RB TEN
10. Samaje Perine, RB Oklahoma
11. Bo Scarbrough, RB Alabama
12. Elijah Hood, RB UNC
13. Ronald Jones II, RB USC
14. Demetris Robertson, WR UGA
updatedUpdate:Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
1.01 - JuJu Smith Schuster WR USC
1.02 - Saquon Barkley RB Penn St.
1.03 - Christian McCaffrey RB Standord
1.04 - Calvin Ridley WR Alabama
1.05 - Christian (Captain) Kirk WR Tex A & M
1.06 - Elijah Wood RB UNC
1.07 - Damien Harris RB Alabama
1.08 - Mike Williams WR Clemson
1.09 - Myles Gaskin RB Washington
1.10 - Jalen Hurd RB Tenn
1.11 -
1.12 -
1.13 -
1.14 -
I had the ninth pick. When I looked at the list of players available in this draft, I had JuJu and Barkley as a pretty strong top two. I think there's a dropoff after them. I knew Kirk, Ridley, McCaffrey, and Hood would probably go before #9. I didn't have the ammo or interest to trade up for them. That left me with a pretty short list for my selection. I went Gaskin, but considered several other players. Some of the other names I looked at:Update:Our draft started early. First four picks were Smith-Schuster, Barkley, McCaffrey, and Ridley.
I have the #9 pick.
Forgot to mention that guys like Chubb, Fournette, Freeman, Perine, and Cook were already rostered in previous years.
1.01 - JuJu Smith Schuster WR USC
1.02 - Saquon Barkley RB Penn St.
1.03 - Christian McCaffrey RB Standord
1.04 - Calvin Ridley WR Alabama
1.05 - Christian (Captain) Kirk WR Tex A & M
1.06 - Elijah Wood RB UNC
1.07 - Damien Harris RB Alabama
1.08 - Mike Williams WR Clemson
1.09 - Myles Gaskin RB Washington
1.10 - Jalen Hurd RB Tennessee
1.11 - OJ Howard TE Alabama
1.12 - Deon Cain WR Clemson
1.13 - LJ Scott RB Michigan State
1.14 - Courtland Sutton WR SMU
1.15 - Travin Dural WR LSU
No, I'm not a big fan of Hurd. For one thing, his production wasn't that good in 2015. Yes he had 1300+ yards in a tough conference and that's nice, but he ranked 12th in the country in carries yet finished just 29th in rushing yards. His 4.7 YPC would be great in the NFL, but in college it ranks towards the bottom of all 1000+ yard rushers. He also didn't prove to be a big play threat. He had just 10 runs of 20+ yards on 277 carries. To put that number in perspective, Chubb had 8...on 92 carries. Hurd's long run % compared to top prospects:Not a Hurd fan, EBF? Seems like the kind of guy that would check a lot of your boxes. Despite being tall, he's also got the speed to go along with it like Henry. He's got the 5* athlete pedigree, runs with power, and is one of the better receiving RB's. He's also eligible in 2017, which is always a plus.
Howard has been on the radar ever since his strong freshman season. I don't think he would be a bad pick. He seems like a relatively high floor selection with decent upside. On the other hand, he's a TE (low positional value in most leagues) and prior to the NC game his production had been pretty minimal in college. A big play here and there, but not much else. Andrews in one season has more receiving TDs (7) than Howard has in his college career (4). Howard is a guy that I looked at in previous seasons, but never quite wanted to pull the trigger on.I was surprised to see that TE OJ Howard wasn't a consideration. Thoughts?
TE's rarely get drafted in any of my devy leagues regardless of hype. The position takes forever to develop in the NFL and doesn't hold a lot of trade value until they are elite, even in TE premium leagues.I was surprised to see that TE OJ Howard wasn't a consideration. Thoughts?
I remember Howard being hyped as an incoming Freshman, even. He wasn't drafted in any of my leagues but his name was the only TE prospect being talked about as potential draftees at that time, and he hadn't even played yet. If anything people expected a lot more a lot earlier from Howard, like you alluded to.Howard has been on the radar ever since his strong freshman season. I don't think he would be a bad pick. He seems like a relatively high floor selection with decent upside. On the other hand, he's a TE (low positional value in most leagues) and prior to the NC game his production had been pretty minimal in college. A big play here and there, but not much else. Andrews in one season has more receiving TDs (7) than Howard has in his college career (4). Howard is a guy that I looked at in previous seasons, but never quite wanted to pull the trigger on.I was surprised to see that TE OJ Howard wasn't a consideration. Thoughts?
One thing that I found on a couple different TENN forums when researching the context around Hurd's play, was how horrible their OL is, which is something to take into consideration. I appreciate your viewpoint though. I think he is fairly similar to Henry, who also is a huge guy that doesn't play like you'd expect him to at that size...he's just in an ideal situation. I see a lot of potential in the passing game with Hurd though, which is big for me.No, I'm not a big fan of Hurd. For one thing, his production wasn't that good in 2015. Yes he had 1300+ yards in a tough conference and that's nice, but he ranked 12th in the country in carries yet finished just 29th in rushing yards. His 4.7 YPC would be great in the NFL, but in college it ranks towards the bottom of all 1000+ yard rushers. He also didn't prove to be a big play threat. He had just 10 runs of 20+ yards on 277 carries. To put that number in perspective, Chubb had 8...on 92 carries. Hurd's long run % compared to top prospects:Not a Hurd fan, EBF? Seems like the kind of guy that would check a lot of your boxes. Despite being tall, he's also got the speed to go along with it like Henry. He's got the 5* athlete pedigree, runs with power, and is one of the better receiving RB's. He's also eligible in 2017, which is always a plus.
Cook - 9.6%
Chubb - 8.7%
Barkley - 8.2%
Hood - 7.3%
Perine - 6.2%
Fournette - 6.0%
Collins - 5.9%
McCaffrey - 5.6%
Freeman - 5.3%
Gaskin - 4.8%
Henry - 4.3%
Elliott - 3.8%
Hurd - 3.6%
I'm not going to suggest that this stat means everything (after all I'm relatively high on Elliott and Gaskin), but it's an indication that Hurd wasn't much of a dynamic big play threat last season.
Putting the numbers aside, he doesn't wow me from an eyeball test standpoint. He bounces everything outside. A lot of tall guys struggle with running and cutting in small windows (think Andre Williams and Melvin Gordon). Thomas Tyner, a guy I hyped a couple years ago, has a little bit of this as well. He looks amazing when he can hit his stride, but he struggles to "get low" and improvise when he needs to adjust his trajectory at a moment's notice. Contrast that with someone like Gaskin, who can do stuff like this.
I don't see the strong lower body from Hurd or the agility that I prefer in RB prospects. I won't say he's a lock to fail because I've been wrong about a lot of guys before (wouldn't have predicted any success for L Murray, K Williams, or D McFadden last season), but he's not a player that I covet. I'd even go so far as to suggest that his backup Alvin Kamara, might have a better pro future:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDqREydqpU
Interestingly, Kamara averaged 6.52 YPC with a 5.6% long run percentage behind the same OL last season.
FWIW, I'm not super high on Henry. I know he just won the Heisman and may be a 2nd-3rd round pick, but I don't see him as a lock for NFL success.One thing that I found on a couple different TENN forums when researching the context around Hurd's play, was how horrible their OL is, which is something to take into consideration. I appreciate your viewpoint though. I think he is fairly similar to Henry, who also is a huge guy that doesn't play like you'd expect him to at that size...he's just in an ideal situation. I see a lot of potential in the passing game with Hurd though, which is big for me.No, I'm not a big fan of Hurd. For one thing, his production wasn't that good in 2015. Yes he had 1300+ yards in a tough conference and that's nice, but he ranked 12th in the country in carries yet finished just 29th in rushing yards. His 4.7 YPC would be great in the NFL, but in college it ranks towards the bottom of all 1000+ yard rushers. He also didn't prove to be a big play threat. He had just 10 runs of 20+ yards on 277 carries. To put that number in perspective, Chubb had 8...on 92 carries. Hurd's long run % compared to top prospects:Not a Hurd fan, EBF? Seems like the kind of guy that would check a lot of your boxes. Despite being tall, he's also got the speed to go along with it like Henry. He's got the 5* athlete pedigree, runs with power, and is one of the better receiving RB's. He's also eligible in 2017, which is always a plus.
Cook - 9.6%
Chubb - 8.7%
Barkley - 8.2%
Hood - 7.3%
Perine - 6.2%
Fournette - 6.0%
Collins - 5.9%
McCaffrey - 5.6%
Freeman - 5.3%
Gaskin - 4.8%
Henry - 4.3%
Elliott - 3.8%
Hurd - 3.6%
I'm not going to suggest that this stat means everything (after all I'm relatively high on Elliott and Gaskin), but it's an indication that Hurd wasn't much of a dynamic big play threat last season.
Putting the numbers aside, he doesn't wow me from an eyeball test standpoint. He bounces everything outside. A lot of tall guys struggle with running and cutting in small windows (think Andre Williams and Melvin Gordon). Thomas Tyner, a guy I hyped a couple years ago, has a little bit of this as well. He looks amazing when he can hit his stride, but he struggles to "get low" and improvise when he needs to adjust his trajectory at a moment's notice. Contrast that with someone like Gaskin, who can do stuff like this.
I don't see the strong lower body from Hurd or the agility that I prefer in RB prospects. I won't say he's a lock to fail because I've been wrong about a lot of guys before (wouldn't have predicted any success for L Murray, K Williams, or D McFadden last season), but he's not a player that I covet. I'd even go so far as to suggest that his backup Alvin Kamara, might have a better pro future:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDqREydqpU
Interestingly, Kamara averaged 6.52 YPC with a 5.6% long run percentage behind the same OL last season.
Agreed. Probably the hardest position to projection in devy leagues. Better off taking TE's as late flyers and hope for the best. I ended up taking Andrews last year in the 5th round or later (in five "TE Premium" leagues). 6-round devy drafts.TE's rarely get drafted in any of my devy leagues regardless of hype. The position takes forever to develop in the NFL and doesn't hold a lot of trade value until they are elite, even in TE premium leagues.I was surprised to see that TE OJ Howard wasn't a consideration. Thoughts?