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A thread about race, racial relations, racism, institutional racism, and what should we do about it? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
Talk to Saints; those were in his neck of the woods I believe.rockaction said:
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, but that's what happens when you legally codify race into social and political situations, which you seem to be denying.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
4 pages in. Any actual solutions proposed by tim?
And on the flip side it is creating bitterness, victimhood, entitlement, and hopelessness. The problem today is not so much the white man or the institutions. The biggest problems are coming from within the ghettos. The broken families, the drugs, the crime, the poverty.
You can't talk about how much more blacks are being arrested and imprisoned while ignoring the astronomical crime rates inside our inner cities. Well apparently you can because that is what the OP does and all one gets when the other side of the equation are brought up is silence or
.
timschochet
Footballguy
Good morning jon. I think we need to talk about all of it. It's not either-or. If you were in charge, what steps would you take to try and alleviate the astronomical crime rates inside our inner cities? What would YOU do about the broken families, the drugs, the crime, the poverty? I'm seriously interested in your point of view.jon_mx said:And on the flip side it is creating bitterness, victimhood, entitlement, and hopelessness. The problem today is not so much the white man or the institutions. The biggest problems are coming from within the ghettos. The broken families, the drugs, the crime, the poverty.
You can't talk about how much more blacks are being arrested and imprisoned while ignoring the astronomical crime rates inside our inner cities. Well apparently you can because that is what the OP does and all one gets when the other side of the equation are brought up is silence or
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Someone may have covered this already, but I would note that regarding #4 above, I think you would have to control for economic factors. Specifically, I suspect that those who can afford to hire a criminal defense lawyer are significantly less likely to be wrongfully convicted. That said, I did not read the study, so I have no idea whether the authors controlled for that or other factors (such as rural/urban, employed/unemployed, etc.).timschochet said:
What I'm saying here is that it doesn't necessarily follow from "blacks or hispanics are more likely to be wrongfully convicted than whites" that "blacks or hispanics are more often wrongfully convicted BECAUSE of their race". Now, in truth, I suspect they are. However, one would need to show more than just the statistics on wrongful conviction alone to prove it.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't disagree. But unless your goal is to try to argue that institutional racism does not exist in our society, I don't see the point in trying to dissect the absolute accuracy of each of these statistics- they're all part of a larger pattern. Are there other factors in play? Of course and nobody is arguing otherwise.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
See, here's where you and I disagree. You use statistics to claim a larger pattern, but then when anyone challenges you on the specifics of the statistics you're using as the basis of your claim, you jump ship to "it's a bigger problem than that one data point". That's where I and others have a problem with your argument. To show that data X proves conclusion Y, you need to show two things: 1) that data X is accurate, and 2) there are no other explanations for conclusion Y.
In general, your style of argument in these debates is to:
1. Show data X
2. Claim conclusion Y
3. Refuse to debate whether the data is accurate OR whether there are other possible explanations for conclusion Y
4. Jump to "what can we do to solve conclusion Y", and dismiss anyone who wants to go back to debating the accuracy of the other data or any other potential explanations
rockaction
Footballguy
This is kind of what you do, tim. Holy ####, that's funny. We all know your preconceived notions going into the debate, the only question is how long we get jerked around.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't mind debating the data Rich; I just don't want to get mired too deeply in it. I think there are some overall assumptions that can be made.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
The bolded is exactly my point above. You think there are overall assumptions that can be made, but other don't, or don't agree with your particular assumptions. And sure, I get that message board style debates can be difficult, with lots of people making lots of simultaneous and conflicting arguments. For me, however, I think it's extremely important to first define a debate and the data before moving on to conclusions and solutions. You tend to want to skip over that first part, and it can be infuriating for others, especially when you do it repeatedly in thread after thread.
timschochet
Footballguy
Rich, you began this conversation by arguing over the accuracy of one of several statistics, even though you admitted that you suspect the statistic is correct. Are you challenging all of the statistics listed? Or the underlying premise?
My problem with your criticism, in this instance, is that the evidence of racism in our society, both institutional and otherwise, is overwhelming.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Here again, you're doing exactly what I wrote above. You haven't shown that it's overwhelming at all.
1. Show data X
2. Claim conclusion Y
3. Refuse to debate whether the data is accurate OR whether there are other possible explanations for conclusion Y
4. Jump to "what can we do to solve conclusion Y", and dismiss anyone who wants to go back to debating the accuracy of the other data or any other potential explanations
In fairness, your actual response on #3 is that you don't want to get bogged down in debating any particular one of the data points because the sum total of all the data points is so overwhelming. You can't know that unless/until we review and dissect each of the data points in detail.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sigh. Rich, when I chose to post that article it was one of about two dozen on the subject which showed up. The statistics that I chose to list were only a few of HUNDREDS of statistics on this subject.
Fuethernore, it's not like I created this subject matter. You're acting like you're a space alien who has never been to Earth before, and I say to you, "racism is a problem in American society", and you say, "show me the evidence." This isn't some new theory I'm espousing here.
Fuethernore, it's not like I created this subject matter. You're acting like you're a space alien who has never been to Earth before, and I say to you, "racism is a problem in American society", and you say, "show me the evidence." This isn't some new theory I'm espousing here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I have no problem with you suggesting "racism is a problem in American society". Where you need to start showing your work is when you start making claims about institutionalized racism and proposed solutions.
It's kind of like the difference between "idiots are a problem in our society" and "we should prohibit those with IQs below 75 from voting". When you get to the second statement, you should expect others to start picking it apart in detail.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well that's really what I want to discuss. I don't know what we should do about it. I wanted to talk about options and their consequences.- TSC.
timschochet
Footballguy
I haven't proposed any solutions yet. There is no second statement. You're jumping the gun.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
4. Jump to "what can we do to solve conclusion Y", and dismiss anyone who wants to go back to debating the accuracy of the other data or any other potential explanations
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You seem really informed on the institutional racism point, and that's a compliment as it takes reading and the like. However the solution is pure values and ideology.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
If that's what you want to do, then you need to do a better job explaining that in your initial posts. Perhaps try something like:
I believe that institutionalized racism is a serious problem in our country. I don't want to debate the accuracy of that statement. For purposes of this thread, let's assume for sake of argument that the statement is entirely accurate. This thread should be devoted to proposed solutions to that problem and the potential consequences thereof.
You don't see the point of discussing anything that disagrees with your pre-conceived conclusions. If blacks are committing 7-8 times more violent crimes, how can you possibly blame institutional racism for blacks being arrested more or incarcerated more? Maybe there is racism on some level that contributes to some of these numbers, but you refuse to discuss what is obviously the number one factor in these spun up statistics you spew. It is bizarre.
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timschochet
Footballguy
1. That is demonstrably not true.
2. I don't. I blame institutional racism for blacks being wrongly accused, for them receiving longer and worse sentences that white people for the same crimes, etc. And I don't blame ONLY institutional racism for these things.
3. I don't know what you mean by "number one factor." Care to expound?
jon, in an earlier post this morning I responded to your concerns, agreed with them, and asked what you would do about them. I'm hoping you'll answer.
timschochet
Footballguy
Here is an article with suggestions about what to do to solve institutional racism. These are not MY solutions. I'm hoping we can take them one by one and discuss them.
https://contexts.org/blog/how-to-end-institutional-racism/
Race and the criminal justice system
As Bernie suggests, a good place to start. When people of color are disproportionately targeted by police and incarcerated, this leads to disadvantages in other arenas of life, such as health, family life, employment, and political power. Here are four targets for policy change:
Police stops and arrests. Controlling for suspect demeanor, offense severity, presence of witnesses, evidence at the scene, prior record of the suspect, and other factors, minority suspects in one study had a 30% higher chance of being arrested than white suspects. In predominantly White neighborhoods in St. Louis, traffic stops were more likely to include a search in stops of Black drivers than of White drivers, especially by White police officers, controlling for characteristics of the officer, driver, and stop.
Punishment outcomes. A study using data from New York, found that Black and Latino (but not Asian) defendants are disadvantaged compared to Whites when it comes to pretrial detention, plea offers, and sentences of incarceration. This effect is particularly strong for Blacks charged with felony violent crimes and drug crimes.
Disproportionate incarceration of men of color. Of African American young men who dropped out of high school, 37% were incarcerated in 2008, compared to less than 1% of the general population. Columbia University’s Spatial Information Design Lab and Justice Mapping Center have mapped “million dollar blocks:” neighborhood blocks that have such a high concentration of residents incarcerated that states are spending over a million dollars a year to incarcerate residents from a single block. (On average it costs $28,000 a year to incarcerate someone in state prison).
Innovate policy solutions post-release. Post-incarceration, employment is a major determinant of whether people end up back in prison. One policy solution that has been getting a lot of traction in select states is “banning the box.” This would allow prospective employees to make it beyond the initial application without having to disclose felonies or misdemeanors, reducing discrimination based on prior offense history.
https://contexts.org/blog/how-to-end-institutional-racism/
Race and the criminal justice system
As Bernie suggests, a good place to start. When people of color are disproportionately targeted by police and incarcerated, this leads to disadvantages in other arenas of life, such as health, family life, employment, and political power. Here are four targets for policy change:
Police stops and arrests. Controlling for suspect demeanor, offense severity, presence of witnesses, evidence at the scene, prior record of the suspect, and other factors, minority suspects in one study had a 30% higher chance of being arrested than white suspects. In predominantly White neighborhoods in St. Louis, traffic stops were more likely to include a search in stops of Black drivers than of White drivers, especially by White police officers, controlling for characteristics of the officer, driver, and stop.
Punishment outcomes. A study using data from New York, found that Black and Latino (but not Asian) defendants are disadvantaged compared to Whites when it comes to pretrial detention, plea offers, and sentences of incarceration. This effect is particularly strong for Blacks charged with felony violent crimes and drug crimes.
Disproportionate incarceration of men of color. Of African American young men who dropped out of high school, 37% were incarcerated in 2008, compared to less than 1% of the general population. Columbia University’s Spatial Information Design Lab and Justice Mapping Center have mapped “million dollar blocks:” neighborhood blocks that have such a high concentration of residents incarcerated that states are spending over a million dollars a year to incarcerate residents from a single block. (On average it costs $28,000 a year to incarcerate someone in state prison).
Innovate policy solutions post-release. Post-incarceration, employment is a major determinant of whether people end up back in prison. One policy solution that has been getting a lot of traction in select states is “banning the box.” This would allow prospective employees to make it beyond the initial application without having to disclose felonies or misdemeanors, reducing discrimination based on prior offense history.
timschochet
Footballguy
Health and healthcare
Institutional racism in American health care results in racial and ethnic minorities facing disproportionate barriers to care as well as lower quality of care. Cost barriers have a greater effect on communities of color than on Whites. Closures of hospital trauma centers increased travel time for emergency care in areas with large Black populations more than other areas, during a time when trauma-related mortality increased for this population. Counties with a higher proportion of Black residents are less likely than other counties to have substance abuse treatment facilities that accept public insurance. While a greater proportion of Black patients live near high-quality hospitals than white patients, Black patients are more likely than Whites to have surgery in lower quality hospitals. Majority Black zip codes are also more likely than other zip codes to have a shortage of primary care physicians. Black, Latina, and Native-American mothers may be more likely to have unnecessary caesarian deliveries, racial and ethnic minorities are underrepresented in clinical trials, resulting in treatments that have not been proven effective for non-White patients. When healthcare providers hold implicit biases, Black patients rate their physicians lower on measures of patient-centered care and communication than do White patients. The locations of providers, cost of care, implicit racial bias in medical school graduates and exclusion from treatment research all contribute to inequities in health outcomes for people of color.
Institutional racism in American health care results in racial and ethnic minorities facing disproportionate barriers to care as well as lower quality of care. Cost barriers have a greater effect on communities of color than on Whites. Closures of hospital trauma centers increased travel time for emergency care in areas with large Black populations more than other areas, during a time when trauma-related mortality increased for this population. Counties with a higher proportion of Black residents are less likely than other counties to have substance abuse treatment facilities that accept public insurance. While a greater proportion of Black patients live near high-quality hospitals than white patients, Black patients are more likely than Whites to have surgery in lower quality hospitals. Majority Black zip codes are also more likely than other zip codes to have a shortage of primary care physicians. Black, Latina, and Native-American mothers may be more likely to have unnecessary caesarian deliveries, racial and ethnic minorities are underrepresented in clinical trials, resulting in treatments that have not been proven effective for non-White patients. When healthcare providers hold implicit biases, Black patients rate their physicians lower on measures of patient-centered care and communication than do White patients. The locations of providers, cost of care, implicit racial bias in medical school graduates and exclusion from treatment research all contribute to inequities in health outcomes for people of color.
timschochet
Footballguy
Housing
US lending practices in the mid-20th century built a problem we’re still living with. In 1935, the Federal Home Loan Bank Board commissioned the creation of a set of maps to guide investment opportunities for housing in the coming years. The maps that emerged separated 239 American cities into 4 types of areas, ranked from most- to least-desirable for development opportunities. The least desirable of those areas, outlined in red, were overwhelmingly the sites of historically Black neighborhoods. Those within those “redlined” areas found it difficult or impossible to secure loans or mortgages for housing and development. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 aimed to correct this. But that fell far short of solving the problem; recent court cases continue to confront discriminatory development policies.
One potential solution is mobility vouchers. The Clinton-era Mobility to Opportunity (MTO) program, which provided vouchers enabling low-income families (most of them headed by Hispanic or Black single mothers) to move to low-poverty areas, has long been considered a net failure, at least in terms of economic and performance gains. Kids who moved didn’t have significantly greater school performance, and their parents didn’t see a lot of growth in their incomes. A recent study, however, uses a newly available outcome measure to probe success – the earned adult incomes of those kids who moved, versus those who didn’t – and finds that in this longer view, the program was more successful than originally thought. Kids who moved to low-poverty areas before the age of 13 earned 31% more as adults than those who didn’t. Housing segregation is both a class and race issue, and this new evidence suggests that this approach shouldn’t be dropped too quickly.
More broadly, sociologist Matthew Desmond, author of the new book Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City, has suggested expanding housing vouchers to all families below the 30th percentile of in their areas – allowing them to spend no more than 30 percent of their income on rent – which would be “an anti-poverty effort, human capital investment, community improvement plan and public health initiative all rolled into one.” The cost of such a program, which would disproportionately help racial and ethnic minorities still paying the price for housing segregation and exploitation, would be small compared with the massive annual tax subsidy for middle-class and rich homeowners.
US lending practices in the mid-20th century built a problem we’re still living with. In 1935, the Federal Home Loan Bank Board commissioned the creation of a set of maps to guide investment opportunities for housing in the coming years. The maps that emerged separated 239 American cities into 4 types of areas, ranked from most- to least-desirable for development opportunities. The least desirable of those areas, outlined in red, were overwhelmingly the sites of historically Black neighborhoods. Those within those “redlined” areas found it difficult or impossible to secure loans or mortgages for housing and development. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 aimed to correct this. But that fell far short of solving the problem; recent court cases continue to confront discriminatory development policies.
One potential solution is mobility vouchers. The Clinton-era Mobility to Opportunity (MTO) program, which provided vouchers enabling low-income families (most of them headed by Hispanic or Black single mothers) to move to low-poverty areas, has long been considered a net failure, at least in terms of economic and performance gains. Kids who moved didn’t have significantly greater school performance, and their parents didn’t see a lot of growth in their incomes. A recent study, however, uses a newly available outcome measure to probe success – the earned adult incomes of those kids who moved, versus those who didn’t – and finds that in this longer view, the program was more successful than originally thought. Kids who moved to low-poverty areas before the age of 13 earned 31% more as adults than those who didn’t. Housing segregation is both a class and race issue, and this new evidence suggests that this approach shouldn’t be dropped too quickly.
More broadly, sociologist Matthew Desmond, author of the new book Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City, has suggested expanding housing vouchers to all families below the 30th percentile of in their areas – allowing them to spend no more than 30 percent of their income on rent – which would be “an anti-poverty effort, human capital investment, community improvement plan and public health initiative all rolled into one.” The cost of such a program, which would disproportionately help racial and ethnic minorities still paying the price for housing segregation and exploitation, would be small compared with the massive annual tax subsidy for middle-class and rich homeowners.
timschochet
Footballguy
Education
End segregation in schools. American schools are still largely segregated by race. Even after accounting for differences in the racial composition between neighborhoods, schools remain racially segregated due to White students’ enrollment in private, magnet, and charter schools. Persistent racial segregation has a detrimental effect on the academic performance of students of color, but integration has no significant effect on the academic work of White students.
Treat students of color better. In the classroom, students of color are disproportionately punished with higher severity. Recent sociological literature suggests that the problem is both more widespread than previously believed and has significant consequences that extend beyond the classroom. School suspension explains about one-fifth of disparities in academic achievement between Black and White students, limiting Black students’ opportunities after graduation. Disparate discipline in schools also contributes to Black overrepresentation in the juvenile justice system.
End segregation in schools. American schools are still largely segregated by race. Even after accounting for differences in the racial composition between neighborhoods, schools remain racially segregated due to White students’ enrollment in private, magnet, and charter schools. Persistent racial segregation has a detrimental effect on the academic performance of students of color, but integration has no significant effect on the academic work of White students.
Treat students of color better. In the classroom, students of color are disproportionately punished with higher severity. Recent sociological literature suggests that the problem is both more widespread than previously believed and has significant consequences that extend beyond the classroom. School suspension explains about one-fifth of disparities in academic achievement between Black and White students, limiting Black students’ opportunities after graduation. Disparate discipline in schools also contributes to Black overrepresentation in the juvenile justice system.
timschochet
Footballguy
Employment
Blacks are twice as likely to be unemployed as Whites, and the earnings of both Blacks and Hispanics continue to lag well behind those of Whites. While employment discrimination on the basis of race was outlawed by the 1964 Civil Rights Act, experimental audit studies focusing on hiring decisions have consistently found strong evidence of racial discrimination, with estimates of White preference ranging from 50% to 240%. Discrimination plays a part in explaining the Black-White wage gap, and recent studies have shown that racial discrimination affects college educated Blacks – regardless of what school they graduated from. Unsurprisingly, racial discrimination has an even greater impact on Blacks without a college degree and those with a criminal record. Discrimination even affects workers in the same job, in the same company, and with equal scores on performance evaluations.
There are a number of steps that can be taken to reduce racial discrimination in the U.S. labor market. For example, the Fair Employment Protection Act, which was introduced in 2012 but not enacted, would remove barriers to workers seeking to file class action lawsuits. Similarly, the Fair Pay Act, which was introduced in 2013 and referred to committee in 2015, would amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to prohibit discrimination in the payment of wages on account of sex, race, or national origin. Finally, we could combat racial discrimination in employment by increasing punitive monetary fines against discriminatory employers and increasing funding and enforcement power for the under-resourced U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in order to more effectively enforce the anti-discrimination laws already on the books.
Blacks are twice as likely to be unemployed as Whites, and the earnings of both Blacks and Hispanics continue to lag well behind those of Whites. While employment discrimination on the basis of race was outlawed by the 1964 Civil Rights Act, experimental audit studies focusing on hiring decisions have consistently found strong evidence of racial discrimination, with estimates of White preference ranging from 50% to 240%. Discrimination plays a part in explaining the Black-White wage gap, and recent studies have shown that racial discrimination affects college educated Blacks – regardless of what school they graduated from. Unsurprisingly, racial discrimination has an even greater impact on Blacks without a college degree and those with a criminal record. Discrimination even affects workers in the same job, in the same company, and with equal scores on performance evaluations.
There are a number of steps that can be taken to reduce racial discrimination in the U.S. labor market. For example, the Fair Employment Protection Act, which was introduced in 2012 but not enacted, would remove barriers to workers seeking to file class action lawsuits. Similarly, the Fair Pay Act, which was introduced in 2013 and referred to committee in 2015, would amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to prohibit discrimination in the payment of wages on account of sex, race, or national origin. Finally, we could combat racial discrimination in employment by increasing punitive monetary fines against discriminatory employers and increasing funding and enforcement power for the under-resourced U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in order to more effectively enforce the anti-discrimination laws already on the books.
timschochet
Footballguy
Credit and debt
Ending institutional racism requires attention to reducing racial wealth inequality while also monitoring and working to end discrimination in credit markets. Reducing wealth inequality requires tackling debt problems. Predatory lending and unequal credit costs and debt collection patterns are pillars of institutional racism in credit markets. While credit access has increased for everyone, minorities pay higher interest rates than Whites for housing and have been subject to abuse from predatory lenders. We also see that lawsuits for the repayment of consumer debt are clustered in black neighborhoods.
Tackling student loan debt is also important. More students of color have to borrow money to attend college than Whites, are less likely to finish, and are more likely to default. Black wealth does not protect Black students from student loan debt in the same way it does for Whites. (For more comprehensive policy recommendations on ending racial wealth inequality, see work done by the researchers at the Center for Global Policy Solutions.)
Ending institutional racism requires attention to reducing racial wealth inequality while also monitoring and working to end discrimination in credit markets. Reducing wealth inequality requires tackling debt problems. Predatory lending and unequal credit costs and debt collection patterns are pillars of institutional racism in credit markets. While credit access has increased for everyone, minorities pay higher interest rates than Whites for housing and have been subject to abuse from predatory lenders. We also see that lawsuits for the repayment of consumer debt are clustered in black neighborhoods.
Tackling student loan debt is also important. More students of color have to borrow money to attend college than Whites, are less likely to finish, and are more likely to default. Black wealth does not protect Black students from student loan debt in the same way it does for Whites. (For more comprehensive policy recommendations on ending racial wealth inequality, see work done by the researchers at the Center for Global Policy Solutions.)
timschochet
Footballguy
Immigration
If the president is going to tackle institutional racism, he or she will need to tackle immigration policy (and not by building more walls). Immigration law has historically been used to classify and exclude people on the basis of race (for example, the Chinese exclusion laws). Today’s immigration policy is no different. Federal activities have been increased in recent years to target Latinos: for example, after the fortification of the US-Mexico border in the 1990s, Mexicans are criminally prosecuted for illegally crossing the border and can face prison time and felon criminal records. Recent research has found that for Latinos, immigration law is increasingly intertwined with criminal law, resulting in greater dangers for those crossing the border and increasing fear among immigrants that family members will be deported. In the “war on terror” Muslims are targets for federal immigration policy enforcement. Although post-9/11 federal policies supposedly only target noncitizens suspected of terrorism, in practice, Arab and Muslim citizens are singled out for racial and religious profiling and denial of due process.
If the president is going to tackle institutional racism, he or she will need to tackle immigration policy (and not by building more walls). Immigration law has historically been used to classify and exclude people on the basis of race (for example, the Chinese exclusion laws). Today’s immigration policy is no different. Federal activities have been increased in recent years to target Latinos: for example, after the fortification of the US-Mexico border in the 1990s, Mexicans are criminally prosecuted for illegally crossing the border and can face prison time and felon criminal records. Recent research has found that for Latinos, immigration law is increasingly intertwined with criminal law, resulting in greater dangers for those crossing the border and increasing fear among immigrants that family members will be deported. In the “war on terror” Muslims are targets for federal immigration policy enforcement. Although post-9/11 federal policies supposedly only target noncitizens suspected of terrorism, in practice, Arab and Muslim citizens are singled out for racial and religious profiling and denial of due process.
timschochet
Footballguy
Voting rights
Progress against institutional racism in the electoral system suffered a serious blow at the hands of the Supreme Court in 2013. There is little doubt that restrictions on voter access – especially those enacted in the last few years – are driven by Republican partisan politics and racial politics in particular. The effect is likely to be fewer minorities voting and more Republicans elected. One voter restriction that deserves special attention is the policy in many states of banning former prisoners from voting. The effects are strong and decidedly racial. One needs only look back to 2000 to see that George W. Bush wouldn’t have been elected if former felons in Florida could have voted.
Progress against institutional racism in the electoral system suffered a serious blow at the hands of the Supreme Court in 2013. There is little doubt that restrictions on voter access – especially those enacted in the last few years – are driven by Republican partisan politics and racial politics in particular. The effect is likely to be fewer minorities voting and more Republicans elected. One voter restriction that deserves special attention is the policy in many states of banning former prisoners from voting. The effects are strong and decidedly racial. One needs only look back to 2000 to see that George W. Bush wouldn’t have been elected if former felons in Florida could have voted.
timschochet
Footballguy
Lots and lots to discuss here. I will offer my own thoughts after a while, but I'm hoping some of you guys will chime in with your opinions about some of these proposed solutions.
Specifically what is not true? That you refuse to acknowledge that one group committing X times more crimes could possibly be the main cause of that group being arrested, incarcerated, and correspondingly wrongfully accused at a much higher rate? You half-heartedly acknowledge the fact it is happening, but you refuse to acknowledge it offers a logical alternative to your claim.
There is nothing shocking or out of line with stats for incarcerations or wrongful prosecutions if these line up with the number of criminal acts committed by each group. Not saying there might be a few stats that seem a bit out of whack, but not shockingly so that it obviously rules out other explanations besides institutional racism.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Mike Ditka's comments from last night "There has been no oppression in this country in the last 100 years that I know of" deserves discussion in this thread.
A lot of people are going to say Ditka's a bigot and an idiot. I don't think he is either one. I think he is crudely expressing an emotion that a lot of white people feel, which is: "All that racism stuff was in the past, it's got nothing to do with me; I'm not a racist so why should I have to deal with this?"
A lot of people are going to say Ditka's a bigot and an idiot. I don't think he is either one. I think he is crudely expressing an emotion that a lot of white people feel, which is: "All that racism stuff was in the past, it's got nothing to do with me; I'm not a racist so why should I have to deal with this?"
Max Power
Footballguy
I think there is some validity to the other aspects you posted. Education seems to be a reach to me. Do you have a link to the "recent sociological literature"? And if they want to claim this issue is 20% of the problem... what is the other 80%?
I don't think its fair to say that private schools are racially segregated either. That boils down to money and not race.
timschochet
Footballguy
I also don't know if segregation is the problem. I haven't studied that aspect of this issue. I DO know that by and large African-Americans do not receive the same quality of education that most of the rest of Americans do. That's obvious to anyone.
As to what to do about it- I don't know that either. I think that in this case when conservatives argue, "hey look, we've been throwing money at this problem for decades now and it's not getting any better" I think there is some validity to that complaint. I know that many conservatives think vouchers would be a solution, and most progressives are opposed because it will take money away from public schools. I am unsure.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Now we are getting somewhere.
Let's move to solutions.
I will throw out one that I have mentioned to you in the past. Increased funding for Drivers education in public schools in bad neighborhoods and an easier way of completing the road test. I dont mean an easier road test, I mean access to vehicles to complete it. Also make it mandatory to take drivers ed to get your license. I propose making it an additional tax on all auto insurance and a flat $5.00 fee tax to be paid by the seller when selling a vehicle and this tax must be included in the advertised price of the vehicle. It is no secret that most advertised car prices end in a 5 intentionally. They would have to change their whole advertising model or simply eat the tax. This would raise revenue that isn't simply passed on to the consumer, at least not at first. In addition I propose that second offense of driving without insurance be stepped up in penalty a great deal for the driver and owner of the vehicle 5 years after this program goes into effect and that insurance companies are required to report all changes in insurance coverage immediately. Lots of states already require updates once or twice a month so this wouldn't be a huge deal. Police should be directed to pull over people that do not have insurance.
Why?
Going to use my state as an example, so I realize I am shrinking the data set.
In WI 90% of incarcerated black males do not have a valid driver's license. Think about that. 90%! Now work backwards. One of two paths. Never got one or lost it.
Job applicants without a valid drivers license are far less likely to get hired. It is a prerequisite for many jobs and it is looked down upon by hiring managers for various reasons. Unemployed black males are more likely to be poor and more likely to get incarcerated. It is very difficult for poor people to get a driver's license. They are less likely to have access to drivers ed and less likely to have access to a qualifying vehicle to be able to take the road test. This would all but eliminate the first path.
The second path is a bit more complicated, but still mostly stems back to being far more likely to commit traffic violations. Why? Why would black people be far more likely to break traffic laws? Well again, black people are more likely to be impoverished. Poor people are less likely to have proper maintenance completed on vehicles. This leads to more of the minor offenses. They are also less likely to have registration current as well as insurance. This leads to more tickets as well.
There is more. They are less likely to have received large blocks of behind the wheel training in a legal situation before getting their license. In WI you dont actually have to take drivers ed. In fact in most states you don't. When I tell people that, they are shocked. Us footballguys took drivers ed when were 15. Got a learners permit for the required 6 months spent hours behind the wheel with mommy and daddy and many of us had a car ready and waiting. You have to take drivers ed to get your license before age 18. You don't need to wait 6 months after getting your learners permit.
So we always hear how hard it is for poor people to go and get just an ID card from the DMV for voting laws. Imagine how hard it actually is to have to go to the DMV when you turn 16, take your written test and get your permit. Then come back 6 months later to take a road test in a properly maintained, registered, and properly insured vehicle? If your parents don't own a car or dont have current registration, you cant do that. So now you have to borrow somebody else's.
This leads to drivers waiting until they turn 18, getting a crash course in training, taking their written and road test in the same day because they might only have access to a car for a brief period, and then if they pass, going perhaps months without getting behind the wheel again.
Who is more likely to know all of the traffic laws? Who is therefore more likely to follow the traffic laws? Don't get sidetracked by studies that say people have the same likelihood of speeding, which is true, I am talking about when you can turn right on red, passing in the shoulder, stopping before a sidewalk, crossing multiple traffic lanes and braking quickly, changing lanes in an intersection, etc. If you are less likely to even be aware it is a law, you are more likely to break it. This becomes a huge problem when driving an unregistered vehicle without insurance.
Spend a few weeks in the worst parts of town and one trend becomes pretty clear. Traffic laws get broken like they are going out of style. Try calling the police in those areas for somebody driving too fast down your street on a regular basis and tell me what happens. A situation just happened here where a kid was trying to steal a car and the owner caught him. He pinned the kid down and somebody called police. It took 2 hours before they showed up. This guy literally held the thief for 2 hours. Traffic stops only happen in these areas because a hit and run made the news or a pedestrian gets killed so the local police put on a nice show for a bit. So now you have groups of people that get used to not having to worry about getting pulled over in the area they live. This changes behavior behind the wheel even if they were aware of what the laws were.
So now surrounding communities with adequate funding for police departments set up traps. Not because they are racist, but because they are doing their jobs. When you get down to most situations like this that liberals bring up, their actual solution, which they don't want to come out and say is that the guy driving through this area with expired plates, no insurance, a dragging muffler, and a bad turn signal going 12 over that just changed lanes in the intersection shouldnt be pulled over anymore than the white guy in a brand new SUV, with insurance, and current registration that is going 12 over. I mean THEY WERE BOTH SPEEDING!!!! Which one is a bigger safety risk? Which car do you think stops faster? Which driver is the bigger problem financially to that community if an accident occurs?
So back to where I started this. Why wait 5 years for second offense increase for insurance? Simply put it would happen way too often right now and we wouldnt get ahead. In five years there should be a lot more properly road educated and employed black males on the roads. Roads should be safer and insurance rates should be lower. Now you can step up penalties without digging the hole deeper. This will limit the number of uninsured motorists on the road and will further reduce insurance premiums to offset costs. Obviously lots of other benefits as well. This obviously doesnt solve everything, but I think it is an easy way to make some pretty big changes by taking simple actions, not simply talking about the problems.
Maybe I am wrong, but I dont think so. I have read a lot about this statewide and I have talked to many people about how they got their license or how they lost it. My experiences consist of working in the worst area of my state and being in charge of the largest business in the area. I was in charge of a fleet and have spent countless hours on the road in the area from a perched position on ride alongs. As well as just seeing out the windows and driving to work. I have seen thousands of job applications and interviewed hundreds of people from the area. I was on call 24/7 since we were a hazmat facility and for tier 2 reporting purposes all security breaches (which we had a ton due to kids in the area being bored on the weekends) had to be properly documented.(Edited to add the largest customer base I deal with is auto repair). I have a good pulse on the area I guess is what I am saying.
Plenty of liberals will dismiss these thoughts because it isn't as simple as just blaming it on racism. Tell you what, you can call it institutional racism that drivers ed hasn't already been funded in these areas. Ok great, you were right, now lets get this done.
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timschochet
Footballguy
It's a very creative, well thought out proposal, para. I admit I havent any time thinking about this aspect at all, but what you say makes sense to me. There may be some facts I'm not considering, but at first glance I like your proposal.
timschochet
Footballguy
Anybody else have any thoughts on some of the solutions listed on this page, or any solutions of their own?
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Having had family in he state education system, granted not one of the best overall, and looked at the dollars per student spent, many of the highest $/student rates are spent on majority black schools in our state. These same schools are still lagging behind in test scores. Many times in counties/systems where the majority of the students are black, there are largely white private schools that start in those areas. I'm not really sure what could/should be done given that the public schools pay the teachers much more than the private. The parents of the private school children have made a choice because often times those public schools are deemed as failing. It's pretty common here for teachers to retire from the public system and then start teaching at private schools to basically earn a 2nd check as well. But at least around here it's not as if these private schools are paying the teachers more, yet somehow the teachers are getting a pretty hefty share of the blame even when they may later on in their lives be the same teachers that teach at private schools.
Let's face it though, when you have a smart child in one of these areas who succeeds, it's very rare he/she is going to come back to these areas after college. Their children are much more likely to be brought up in another system and therefore quite frequently it's a generational thing within these same schools/districts where failure repeats itself. That in and of itself creates the economic differences as well.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
This is one where I'd want to see the data on punishment outcomes, given that he mentioned what they controlled for in stops, but didn't mention it on punishment outcomes. I suspect that economic circumstances (i.e. quality of defense attorney) are a huge factor in outcomes.
Regarding the proposed solution, I don't think it would help, and it would simply increase hiring costs for businesses. Businesses would now spend more time interviewing applicants that they have no intention of hiring (due to the prior offenses).
Rich Conway
Footballguy
This is another one that sounds more like discrimination based on economic factors than on race, no?
timschochet
Footballguy
In almost all of these there's going to be that correlation. Black people are among the poorest Americans. We can argue over the reasons, but there's no getting around that it's a fact.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
That's kind of the point. How do we know the outcome is due to race rather than economic disparity?
timschochet
Footballguy
Personally I think it's due to both- not race, but racism, to be precise, both historical and current. AND its due to economic disparity. AND the economic disparity is due in a large part to historical racism, which brings us back to square one. AND I acknowledge that this is a very complicated subject, and reasonable people are going to disagree.
But is any of this relevant to the solution, whatever it is? However they got there, there's a lot of black Americans in this terrible situation. How can we help them out of it? What should we as a society do to better their lot?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
There are probably lots of things we can do to help. We can start by ending the war on drugs. We can institute a Basic Income Guarantee instead of the myriad of means-tested welfare programs we have now. We can end rent control policies, a primarily urban idea that causes far more problems than it solves. None of these suggestions have anything to do with race, but all would probably help blacks and Latinos more than any race-based idea out there.
So, now that this issue is solved, what else do you want to tackle?
timschochet
Footballguy
Los Angeles Angels. How can we get Mike Trout a championship at Anaheim?Rich Conway said:
timschochet
Footballguy
1. I'm not opposed to BIG, but I'm curious as to how it would have a significant effect on this particular issue.Rich Conway said:
2. How does rent control affect this? At least in my neck of the woods, if we removed rent control it would prevent lower middle class and poor people from living in nice apartments in Santa Monica.
