A thread about race, racial relations, racism, institutional racism, and what should we do about it? (1 Viewer)

[Dooook]

Moynihan's become kind of a hero to conservatives over the years, I've noticed, for that 1965 study.

Why did black families break up after 1960? The main reason is that economic opportunities emerged in the northern cities after World War II, which allowed millions of blacks desperate to leave Jim Crow behind. But once they got there they were forced by discrimination into poverty stricken areas, and then abused terribly by white developers like Donald Trump and his dad. This led to situations even worse than what was faced down south. The article I linked earlier by Ta-Nehisi Coates breaks this down in specific detail.

WE as white society are the primary reason that black families have suffered. Our bigotry, our ignorance, and our neglect caused the situation. It wasn't anything they did to themselves. We are responsible, and we owe them. Big time.

While there is some validity to your assertions, please note that "the Great Migration" began in the 19teens and there is no doubt that at that time the black nuclear family suffered due to the loss of a large number of black males moving to the Northeast and Midwest to search for work; in many cases leaving families behind due to the uncertainties of their new life. 

There are a couple of things to note, US Census Bureau Data does not show a huge disruption in the number of two parent black families until the 1960's, a time in which most of the Great Migration had occurred.  Also, in the post WWII era, blacks in the Midwest and Northeast were much more integrated (accepted may be a better word) than they were in the pre-WWII era.  Post WWII, they had seen heavy increases in wages and were allowed to take roles that were previously closed to them.  Absolutely social segregation existed, but comparatively, things weren't as bad as previous generations had experienced.  So why the deterioration within the family unit when things started to progress? 

Back to the original point, US Census Bureau data shows that the speaker who you quoted was essentially correct with his 70% number.  Kind of curious if knowing that makes you weigh his opinion any heavier now that you can't dismiss his data outright? 

 

[timschochet]

While there is some validity to your assertions, please note that "the Great Migration" began in the 19teens and there is no doubt that at that time the black nuclear family suffered due to the loss of a large number of black males moving to the Northeast and Midwest to search for work; in many cases leaving families behind due to the uncertainties of their new life. 

There are a couple of things to note, US Census Bureau Data does not show a huge disruption in the number of two parent black families until the 1960's, by this time The Great Migration had essentially ended.  Also, in the post WWII era, blacks in the Midwest and Northeast were much more integrated (accepted may be a better word) than they were in the pre-WWII era.  Post WWII, they had seen heavy increases in wages and were allowed to take roles that were previously closed to them.  Absolutely social segregation existed, but comparatively, things weren't as bad as previous generations had experienced.  So why the deterioration within the family unit when things started to progress? 

Back to the original point, US Census Bureau data shows that the speaker who you quoted was essentially correct with his 70% number.  Kind of curious if knowing that makes you weigh his opinion any heavier now that you can't dismiss his data outright? 

I'm not trying to dismiss his data, I'm attempting to dispute his interpretation. "Black men were mentors to us, they were in the home, doing things they needed to do" is extremely simplistic, and study after study suggests its just not accurate when we examine the effects of the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow on the black family. IMO, in exactly the same way that some conservatives like Reagan and Trump have painted a romanticized view of the way white families lived in the 1950s and prior, this guy has created a romanticized view of the way that black families lived, in order to pursue a political agenda. I don't think it's realistic.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

A number of states ban the box already. Do we have any studies about success? I don't know. 

There is lots of research on this topic.  Here's one example.  My understanding is that there's really not much dispute about this -- "ban the box" laws increase racial discrimination. 

 

[timschochet]

There is lots of research on this topic.  Here's one example.  My understanding is that there's really not much dispute about this -- "ban the box" laws increase racial discrimination. 

Interesting. I'll try to read more. Perhaps it's not such a good idea after all. If not, we'll need to look for other ideas. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Why would you differentiate customers compared to coworkers? Wouldn't you think "don't murder the receptionist" on your way in would be pretty important too? "Substantially related" is much more narrow than that and that the exact circumstances are relevant. That seems to be backed up with this...

I think not murdering co-workers is an essential part of most jobs as well. I wasn't commenting on the Wisconsin statute or case law in particular. Just expressing a general sentiment that not murdering people seems like an indispensable requirement for doing most jobs well.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I think not murdering co-workers is an essential part of most jobs as well. I wasn't commenting on the Wisconsin statute or case law in particular. Just expressing a general sentiment that not murdering people seems like an indispensable requirement for doing most jobs well.

Going to have to go with "no murder" on this as well.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I disagree with this. Let's get back to the original issue: 25% of all blacks are felons. We cannot ignore this issue. We cannot just shunt them aside and only concentrate on the young ones who haven't been to prison. If we do so, we continue to doom not just this generation but each succeeding generation. That number is simply too big. Obviously, decriminalization of drugs will have a significant impact, but we still need to deal with those people who have already been to prison because our laws and punishment have been stupid.

I admit that there are flaws in "ban the box" proposal. But the alternative would be to force employers to hire these people, or for the federal government to do it. Of all of our options, this seems like the most reasonable alternative IMO. Doing nothing is NOT a reasonable alternative.

You know a big way to help that group? Eliminate the GED. Create a path to an actual diploma from a high school in their home area while they are in prison, albeit via condensed means. So instead of getting your GED, you get an actual high school diploma. Not a new name different school, an actual diploma from the school they would have gone to. 

This will also help to limit dropouts if there is no GED. A 2006 survey found that 41% of males dropping out responded they thought it would be easier to get a GED as one of the reasons they dropped out.  http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2158244013503834 

A GED does nothing positive for kids and can provide motivation for making a dumb decision. 

The latest research, however, shows that people with GEDs are, in fact, no better off than dropouts when it comes to their chances of getting a good job.

 

[Sweet J]

Going to have to go with "no murder" on this as well.

"Was that wrong?  Should I have not done that?  I gotta admit, I have to plead ignorance on this one."

 

[parasaurolophus]

I feared this would happen. Couple days ago the mke police chief announced a crackdown on driving. With traffic fatalities on the rise and two cops being injured by teens fleeing in a "stollie" this is going to end badly.

Other suburbs are pointing the finger at Milwaukee for the rise in crime in their cities. Town council meeting this week in brookfield  after 6 thefts in a little over a week. 

If you remember the mass shooting in Brookfield at azana the police were quick to respond. Something like 6 cars within two minutes. 

Wauwatosa had kids drive right through an outdoor dining area.  

Elm grove having issues too. If you ever drove through elm grove you would laugh. The entire city has a 25 mph speed limit and an average age of like 110.  

Most of these cities have officially lifted all no chase policies and residents are pissed. 

 

[shadrap]

Murder seems substantially related to any job involving interaction with customers. "Don't murder people" is a pretty basic customer-service skill for a cashier, IMO.

probably shouldn't be funny but..............................man it is.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I feared this would happen. Couple days ago the mke police chief announced a crackdown on driving. With traffic fatalities on the rise and two cops being injured by teens fleeing in a "stollie" this is going to end badly.

Other suburbs are pointing the finger at Milwaukee for the rise in crime in their cities. Town council meeting this week in brookfield  after 6 thefts in a little over a week. 

If you remember the mass shooting in Brookfield at azana the police were quick to respond. Something like 6 cars within two minutes. 

Wauwatosa had kids drive right through an outdoor dining area.  

Elm grove having issues too. If you ever drove through elm grove you would laugh. The entire city has a 25 mph speed limit and an average age of like 110.  

Most of these cities have officially lifted all no chase policies and residents are pissed. 

I was raised in Elm Grove.  I even remember when it had Elm trees.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I was raised in Elm Grove.  I even remember when it had Elm trees.

You know how ridiculously conservative it is then and how well staffed their police department is. They still sit at all the same places and get people daily. I got pulled over back to back nights in Elm Grove for "suspected drunk driving" at 11 ish pm. Both times hadnt had a drop. Just hadnt got my sticker yet in the mail. 

 

[urbanhack]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/01/n-j-police-chief-said-black-people-are-like-isis-and-hed-like-to-be-on-the-firing-squad-feds-say/?

“I wish that n*ggers would come back from Trenton and give me a reason to put my hands on him, I’m tired of ’em. These n*ggers are like ISIS, they have no value. They should line them all up and mow ’em down. I’d like to be on the firing squad, I could do it.”

— Former Chief of Bordentown Township PD Frank Nucera Jr.

 

[timschochet]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/01/n-j-police-chief-said-black-people-are-like-isis-and-hed-like-to-be-on-the-firing-squad-feds-say/?

“I wish that n*ggers would come back from Trenton and give me a reason to put my hands on him, I’m tired of ’em. These n*ggers are like ISIS, they have no value. They should line them all up and mow ’em down. I’d like to be on the firing squad, I could do it.”

— Former Chief of Bordentown Township PD Frank Nucera Jr.

This will no doubt be chalked up as one bad actor, and not at all representative of a broken system.

 

[urbanhack]

yes...just another one off

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

This will no doubt be chalked up as one bad actor, and not at all representative of a broken system.

They system is prosecuting him for his personal misuse of an institution.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This will no doubt be chalked up as one bad actor, and not at all representative of a broken system.

Didnt his own department record him and turn him in and now he is being prosecuted? You sure this is the one that you want to try and prove your point with? 

 

[Ilov80s]

Unequivocal proof of institutional racism 

http://wapo.st/2zItkVG

 

[urbanhack]

Black man shot for trying to get into his own truck and then handcuffed to his hospital bed.   Stand procedure...

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/14/man-suspected-breaking-into-pickup-shot/

 

[GROOT]

Unequivocal proof of institutional racism 

http://wapo.st/2zItkVG

or it's  unequivocal economics.

 

[urbanhack]

Fantastic work here by By EMILY BADGER, CLAIRE CAIN MILLER, ADAM PEARCE and KEVIN QUEALY and the NYT.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html?smid=tw-share

 

[The Commish]

It's sad and pathetic that people can't accept the reality that we don't all start at the same starting line in life nor do we face the same obstacles or same amount of obstacles in the race of life.

 

[ShamrockPride]

It's sad and pathetic that people can't accept the reality that we don't all start at the same starting line in life nor do we face the same obstacles or same amount of obstacles in the race of life.

I see what you did there.

 

[GROOT]

It's sad and pathetic that people can't accept the reality that we don't all start at the same starting line in life nor do we face the same obstacles or same amount of obstacles in the race of life.

I don't know anyone that doesn't acknowledge this

 

[parasaurolophus]

It's sad and pathetic that people can't accept the reality that we don't all start at the same starting line in life nor do we face the same obstacles or same amount of obstacles in the race of life.

Who ever says that? Everybody knows that the kid born into a family with a successful family business to inherit is better off than the middle class kid who is better off than the kid given up to the system at age 2. 

Would you really want a system where you had zero say in your kid's future? 

 

[Da Guru]

It's sad and pathetic that people can't accept the reality that we don't all start at the same starting line in life nor do we face the same obstacles or same amount of obstacles in the race of life.

I accepted that the hard way.  Just did not know it at the time.

 Grew up in Detroit in a low income but hard working family.  We all made it out because of our parents. I played every sport in HS and told my dad I could not work..he found me a job making pizzas on Sat and Sun.

My dad passed when I was 18,,when I got my first job out of college at Ford my mom said I made more in the first year than my dad made in his last five.   Broke my heart because he worked 12 hours a day.  Life is not fair...because my dad worked way harder than most but without education.

 

[The Commish]

I accepted that the hard way.  Just did not know it at the time.

 Grew up in Detroit in a low income but hard working family.  We all made it out because of our parents. I played every sport in HS and told my dad I could not work..he found me a job making pizzas on Sat and Sun.

My dad passed when I was 18,,when I got my first job out of college at Ford my mom said I made more in the first year than my dad made in his last five.   Broke my heart because he worked 12 hours a day.  Life is not fair...because my dad worked way harder than most but without education.

Empathy is certainly lacking, but I find it somewhat comforting to learn the sorts of things you outline above.  It helps to humanize the world around me in some weird way.  It's sometimes painful to go through the process, but it pays tremendous dividends in the end.

 

[The Commish]

Who ever says that?

I don't think I could count the number of times I've heard "if I can do it, you should be able to do it".  It's a terrible attitude to have because it's not always true and lacks an incredible amount of empathy.

 

[The Commish]

I don't know anyone that doesn't acknowledge this

You're lucky.  There are posters on this board who don't accept it  

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't think I could count the number of times I've heard "if I can do it, you should be able to do it".  It's a terrible attitude to have because it's not always true and lacks an incredible amount of empathy.

That isnt the same as what you said before. 

 

[The Commish]

That isnt the same as what you said before. 

Considering it's evidence of what I said, I thought we'd be able to connect dots around here.  There's really no way to make this statement you just quoted while accepting the fact that not everyone starts at the same place  

 

[urbanhack]

I accepted that the hard way.  Just did not know it at the time.

 Grew up in Detroit in a low income but hard working family.  We all made it out because of our parents. I played every sport in HS and told my dad I could not work..he found me a job making pizzas on Sat and Sun.

My dad passed when I was 18,,when I got my first job out of college at Ford my mom said I made more in the first year than my dad made in his last five.   Broke my heart because he worked 12 hours a day.  Life is not fair...because my dad worked way harder than most but without education.

You should probably take note of the thread subject and read the NYT article a few posts above to see what we are talking about in here.

 

[Da Guru]

You should probably take note of the thread subject and read the NYT article a few posts above to see what we are talking about in here.

Yup.....I just clicked on and read the post above mine....

 

[parasaurolophus]

Considering it's evidence of what I said, I thought we'd be able to connect dots around here.  There's really no way to make this statement you just quoted while accepting the fact that not everyone starts at the same place  

You can absolutely make that statement without having the same starting point.

"If I can work hard so can you"

"If I can go through life without needing to get a new iphone every 6 months so can you"

"If I can decide to stop going out to eat in order to save money so can you"

Feel free to move on to where this conversation always goes and point out that some people have disabilities limiting their ability to work hard, that some people need to have updated technology for their career in social media, or that some people dont have a car and have a disability and noodles and company is so much closer than the grocery store.

 

[The Commish]

You can absolutely make that statement without having the same starting point.

"If I can work hard so can you"

"If I can go through life without needing to get a new iphone every 6 months so can you"

"If I can decide to stop going out to eat in order to save money so can you"

Feel free to move on to where this conversation always goes and point out that some people have disabilities limiting their ability to work hard, that some people need to have updated technology for their career in social media, or that some people dont have a car and have a disability and noodles and company is so much closer than the grocery store.

These statements aren't what I said at all.  Can't have a conversation go anywhere if you're not going to actually read and process what's being said.  It's interesting that you've already decided where the conversation's going to go though....have a good day  

 

[parasaurolophus]

These statements aren't what I said at all.  Can't have a conversation go anywhere if you're not going to actually read and process what's being said.  It's interesting that you've already decided where the conversation's going to go though....have a good day  

You made a hyperbolic ridiculous statement to start. Then you backed it down to

"I don't think I could count the number of times I've heard "if I can do it, you should be able to do it".  It's a terrible attitude to have because it's not always true and lacks an incredible amount of empathy."

Then when I point out this is also a dumb statement by giving three examples of "If i can do it you should be able to do it" and then you yet again say it isnt what you are saying? Then have the nerve to criticize that somebody is stretching your words? 

Yeah. Run along. Happy you have decided to check out. You know squat about this topic. 

 

[The Commish]

  As I said, I thought the dots could be connected.  If I have to walk one through that process, it's probably best to stop here and cut losses.  There's nothing hyperbolic about the initial statement.  It's an uneducated, yet popular POV held by many many many people in this country.  It's right up there with "you can be anything you want to be".

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

You can absolutely make that statement without having the same starting point.

"If I can work hard so can you"

"If I can go through life without needing to get a new iphone every 6 months so can you"

"If I can decide to stop going out to eat in order to save money so can you"

Feel free to move on to where this conversation always goes and point out that some people have disabilities limiting their ability to work hard, that some people need to have updated technology for their career in social media, or that some people dont have a car and have a disability and noodles and company is so much closer than the grocery store.

I think the point is that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did."  Don't want to put words in someone else's mouth but I assume those are the dots Commish was connecting and if so, I think he's right.  I've frequently seen arguments against institutional racism that basically boil down to that kind of sentiment.  

 

[The Commish]

I think the point is that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did."  Don't want to put words in someone else's mouth but I assume those are the dots Commish was connecting and if so, I think he's right.  I've frequently seen arguments against institutional racism that basically boil down to that kind of sentiment.  

It doesn't matter.  He has a predetermined narrative he wants this to go.  What I typed is not even remotely controversial.  We have countless socioeconomic studies based on these sorts of claims and yet some believe the sentiments don't exist and/or they do what they can to minimize them.  The reality is if someone wants to be taken seriously, they won't make claims that require the assumption that we all start at the same place in life or face the same obstacles.  Claims like that include "If I can do it, I don't see why you can't" or "I don't know why you're having a problem with this, just do it like I did and you'll be fine" basically require an "all else equal" mindset otherwise it's just shooting off of the mouth and empty, mindless statements.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think the point is that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did."  Don't want to put words in someone else's mouth but I assume those are the dots Commish was connecting and if so, I think he's right.  I've frequently seen arguments against institutional racism that basically boil down to that kind of sentiment.  

I disagree. This goes right back to where the commish started. Nobody thinks that everything is the same and that everybody has equal footing and that everybody could easily have it "as good as"  

When people say things like "If I can work hard, so can you" that is actually what they mean. It doesn't boil down to "as good as". It boils down to good enough. Our goal as a society shouldn't be to give every kid equal footing. Anybody bringing that up is either using it for the exact purpose the commish was using it for, or they haven't thought it through. Our goal should be to make sure that the laws are fair and that certain programs are in place to provide education that will allow for an acceptable life. After that people need to be held accountable for their decisions. 

I think the laws are fair and I have mentioned in this thread already some of the programs that need to be put in place or changed. 

People are so far apart on this issue though it is going to be a very long time before any real change happens.

We can't blame cigarette companies for why so many poor people smoke. We can't blame the lottery for why poor people waste so much money on it. We can't blame payday loan places for "preying" on the poor. We can't blame the cable companies for not providing proper infrastructure so that is why poor people are constantly buying new phones. We can't blame student loans for why somebody didn't get a tax return after it got gobbled up to pay a past due balance. We can't blame Albertson's for closing their location that was constantly getting robbed for creating a food desert. We can't blame the police for issuing the ticket that led to the license being revoked that led to the next ticket and car being impounded that led to losing the job. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I disagree. 

If you don't believe that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did," then yeah, we're pretty far apart on this issue.  There's definitely no sense discussing that particular point if you don't acknowledge it exists.

 

[parasaurolophus]

If you don't believe that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did," then yeah, we're pretty far apart on this issue.  There's definitely no sense discussing that particular point if you don't acknowledge it exists.

Everything exists in some form. I mean jesus, Mark Ruffalo is a 9/11 truther. So do some people mean that? Of course. I believe that % to be very small and pointless to discuss.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Everything exists in some form. I mean jesus, Mark Ruffalo is a 9/11 truther. So do some people mean that? Of course. I believe that % to be very small and pointless to discuss.

If you don't think the attitude I described is prevalent in our society we can just agree to disagree but you're almost certainly way off in your assessment.  I mean jesus, depending on how you define "9/11 truther," polls have shown that an insanely high % of people believe in some version of a conspiracy theory about 9/11, so that comment does more to detract from your point than support it. 

 

[unckeyherb]

If you don't believe that sometimes when people say things like, "If I can work hard, so can you," what they are really saying is "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did," then yeah, we're pretty far apart on this issue.  There's definitely no sense discussing that particular point if you don't acknowledge it exists.

What is the percentage of people that say, "If I can work hard, so can you," but really mean, "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did,"?  You're making some pretty vague assumptions based on nothing and I don't think its nearly as consequential as you're making it sound.  Not even sure sure your point.  I mean, okay, lets agree that sometimes people say x and actually mean y.  Now what?

 

[parasaurolophus]

If you don't think the attitude I described is prevalent in our society we can just agree to disagree but you're almost certainly way off in your assessment.  I mean jesus, depending on how you define "9/11 truther," polls have shown that an insanely high % of people believe in some version of a conspiracy theory about 9/11, so that comment does more to detract from your point than support it. 

I can agree to disagree. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

What is the percentage of people that say, "If I can work hard, so can you," but really mean, "If your situation is not as good as mine, it's because you didn't work as hard as I did,"?  You're making some pretty vague assumptions based on nothing and I don't think its nearly as consequential as you're making it sound.  Not even sure sure your point.  I mean, okay, lets agree that sometimes people say x and actually mean y.  Now what?

You got me, I don't have the exact figures on that.  But here's a report indicating things like 52% of people think "poor people lacking motivation" is a "major cause" of poverty.  If I were so inclined I'm certain I could find a dozen more like it illustrating similar principles.  My point is that in order to adequately address certain issues in our society, we first have to collectively acknowledge that they exist; if a huge percentage of the population doesn't, then we won't ever make meaningful progress, and I believe that's certainly the case when it comes to things like institutional racism and classism.  Are we really trying to pretend that the whole absurd "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality isn't fairly widespread in our society?  It's engrained in the American dream.   A comment like "if I can work hard, so can you" seems pretty plainly dismissive of the systemic issues that keep poor people poor, for example. 

 

[unckeyherb]

You got me, I don't have the exact figures on that.  But here's a report indicating things like 52% of people think "poor people lacking motivation" is a "major cause" of poverty.  If I were so inclined I'm certain I could find a dozen more like it illustrating similar principles.  My point is that in order to adequately address certain issues in our society, we first have to collectively acknowledge that they exist; if a huge percentage of the population doesn't, then we won't ever make meaningful progress, and I believe that's certainly the case when it comes to things like institutional racism and classism.  Are we really trying to pretend that the whole absurd "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality isn't fairly widespread in our society?  It's engrained in the American dream.   A comment like "if I can work hard, so can you" seems pretty plainly dismissive of the systemic issues that keep poor people poor, for example. 

Okay, fair enough and I'm fine with agreeing that there are certainly systemic issues that affect poor people more-war on drugs being front and center.  I don't think, in some-maybe many-cases that "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is absurd. 

Regardless, forget about the "if I can work hard, so can you" mentality.  How about if I make good decisions, so can you?  There has to be some personal responsibility, right?  There is no system that is forcing high school aged kids to have unprotected sex and give birth to children out of wedlock.  No system forcing the fathers of these kids to NOT marry the mother.  No system forcing the mother to continue having children out of wedlock-often times with a different father.  No system forcing them to drop out of school and forgo any shot at higher education-the road out of poverty and into the middle class.  

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I don't think, in some-maybe many-cases that "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is absurd. 

I just mean it's an absurd saying that means the exact opposite of how it's used.  Go ahead and literally try to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, let me know how successful you are. 

How about if I make good decisions, so can you?  

What if I told you that's also not true?  And that people aren't in poverty because they make poor decisions, but rather people make poor decisions because they're in poverty?  This is exactly the point I'm making, millions of people don't (or aren't able to) acknowledge what it's actually like to be in poverty, and that prevents us from making progress on effective solutions.  We can't solve problems that millions of people don't admit exist. 

 

[unckeyherb]

I just mean it's an absurd saying that means the exact opposite of how it's used.  Go ahead and literally try to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, let me know how successful you are. 

I don't think its meant to be taken literally.  Its suggesting that you lift yourself up out of a situation of your own accord.  No matter how unrealistic you or others deem it to be.  

What if I told you that's also not true?  And that people aren't in poverty because they make poor decisions, but rather people make poor decisions because they're in poverty?  This is exactly the point I'm making, millions of people don't (or aren't able to) acknowledge what it's actually like to be in poverty, and that prevents us from making progress on effective solutions.  We can't solve problems that millions of people don't admit exist. 

That study indicates that less wealthy people under specific financial stress tend to make poor judgments when faced with a decision, such as regarding a car repair or a purchase at the mall.  Okay I believe that.  I've lived that, I'm sure most here have.  I'm not 100% clear on the point you are trying to make.  Are you saying that poverty trumps rational thought about decision making and the impacts it has on your future?  

Also, I'm unclear as to what you think millions of people don't admit exists.  Poverty?  Many millions of people live it.  I don't think anyone in the country would claim it does not exist.

 

[The Commish]

If you don't think the attitude I described is prevalent in our society

There is a very specific reason my words were altered almost immediately to convey something I didn't originally.  There is absolutely no disagreeing that there is a large group of people in this country who lack the patience to have the empathy necessary to understand we aren't all on an even playing field.  This is a fundamental and systemic problem.  IMO, acknowledging that is key to all the rest.  Understanding the individual's path in life instead of assuming that it's the same as (or very similar to mine) is key to the rest.  One of the big indicators in seeing this assumption is this notion that because A could do it, it means anyone can do it.  That was my only point.  We need to get away from that mindset and understand it's way more complicated than that and that every individual's situation is different.  It's hard.  It takes an incredible amount of work and one on one time to provide legitimate help.  Education is key to the foundation of success.  Then we need to learn responsibility once we have the tools in place.  I'm not an expert on this stuff but I have been working diligently with those less fortunate for about two decades and I firmly hold what I say here as the truth and key to success because I see how successful it is.  I also see how pervasive the ill-informed attitudes are towards those who are struggling.  The judgments of these people are almost always based in ignorance and laziness and are consistently incomplete if not flat out wrong.

Most of the posts after my initial post here are straw men of things I didn't say nor are they objectives that I think need to be attained, as you are seeing in subsequent posts.  There's not an ounce of me that believes the ultimate responsibility for the individual rests on anyone but the individual, but the majority of me believes (and continues to be proven correct daily) that empathy and understanding are the two key ingredients to helping individuals achieve their goals.  This requires us as mentors to open our eyes and see the world from that individual's perspective and understand that this "if I can do it, anyone can do it" attitude is pervasive in their lives.  It's not a minority of people in their lives telling them this.  They are hit over the head with it every day and it can be as big of an obstacle as anything else when one is trying to improve themselves.