Faust
MVP
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Dynasty: QB Connor Cook, Oakland Raiders (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Faust
MVP
MSU's Connor Cook gets grilled on ESPN's 'Gruden's QB Camp'
Connor Cook is one of the more polarizing draft prospects in the 2016 NFL Draft class. I am curious to hear the opinions on Cook from the Shark Pool.
Connor Cook is one of the more polarizing draft prospects in the 2016 NFL Draft class. I am curious to hear the opinions on Cook from the Shark Pool.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
He's this year's Tom Savage IMO. Think when BS season ends and the cards get turned over next week he'll have been drafted as a pure backup.
Faust
MVP
An NFL scout who spoke with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel doesn't believe Michigan State QB Connor Cook "can lead you to the promised land."
"It's a tell-tale sign when your teammates don't like you," the scout said, "and I know they don't. [Cook]'s good, but that position is more than physical attributes. It's also leadership. Is he going to lead your guys? I don't think so." With the draft now just a week away, it looks like Cook has failed to scrub himself free from character questions. Just last week, TFY Draft Insider's Tony Pauline relayed that the 6-foot-4, 217-pound gunslinger "[came] across as flippant and cavalier" during interviews. Another scout who spoke with the Journal-Sentinel absolutely savaged Cook -- for every aspect of his being. "He stinks," the scout said, adding, "Average arm, average mobility, average field vision. Not a leader. Not aware." That scout went so far as to say that if Cook is drafted in the first round, the offending GM should be fired "right after they pick him." We have issues with Cook as an NFL prospect, too, but wow.
Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Apr 21 - 3:35 PM
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
WTH?
They're both QBs? Both of them have names that start with C and have two words? No idea how you get to this one.
jtd13
Footballguy
I think Cook is a much better prospect than Savage was. That said, Cook rubs a lot of people the wrong way, I think he is an early 3rd rounder, likely to a team that will allow him a chance to start, but not necessarily be the favorite to start. Kind of like Mike Glennon was a few years ago. Could also see him as perhaps an "heir apparent" to an aging starter. Maybe Dallas in round 3?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Yeah, some of these pundits say some outrageous stuff this time of year knowing full well we will forget everything and move on the second the actual draft starts. I teally think Brooks is one of those guys.wdcrob said:
BoltBacker
Footballguy
The hate for this guy is out of control imo.
If you needed a college guy to win you an NFL game in week 1 I think the first guy on the list would be Goff, but Cook might be #2. He has won big games against the best defenses in the country and so many of these QB's seem like huge projects just to get on the field of an NFL game. In a QB desperate league I am not sure how patient some of these teams can afford to be.
If you needed a college guy to win you an NFL game in week 1 I think the first guy on the list would be Goff, but Cook might be #2. He has won big games against the best defenses in the country and so many of these QB's seem like huge projects just to get on the field of an NFL game. In a QB desperate league I am not sure how patient some of these teams can afford to be.
ZWK
Footballguy
Cook's 2014 was actually good, which puts him miles ahead of Savage. Hackenberg seems like a closer comp for Tom #2.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
This heavy criticism at this stage pretty clearly indicates a smokescreen, IMO.
Someone loves this guy.
Someone loves this guy.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Or he's old, undersized, inaccurate, and has a weak arm.
Brendon1215
Footballguy
I think Denver would be smart to snag him at the end of the 1st.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
How does some of this smokescreen stuff that "anonymous sources" say about prospects not count as slander/libel?
Doubledown1313
Footballguy
I think it falls into the category of opinion aka freedom of speech.
If it is anonymous, who would you charge?
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jtd13
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Instead of playing at 18/19/20/21 and entering the league at 21 (young) or 22 (normal) he played at 20/21/22 and is entering the league at 23. The extra year is a significant advantage in terms of NCAA production, on average -- especially since he didn't play at 18 or 19. His completion percentage is pretty bad to begin with, but when you age adjust it it's even worse.
76"/217 is very slender by NFL standards. It's been done, but it is still undersized. Combined with the weak arm it's troubling.
76"/217 is very slender by NFL standards. It's been done, but it is still undersized. Combined with the weak arm it's troubling.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Freedom of speech does not mean that you get to say whatever you want whenever you want.
jtd13
Footballguy
He's younger than Wentz and and is much thicker than Goff. Wentz has a bigger arm, but Cook has more then enough arm strength. I'm guessing you only wretched the Bama game where he had a bum shoulder, or didn't watch any games and are basing it on the radar from the combine. That's fine, but I think anything that saw him in 2014 and 2015 pre- injury knows he has a sufficient arm.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I appreciate the answer that actually addresses football reasons to ding him as a player, as opposed to these real GM/scouts that sound like palm readers that are sensing some sort of bad magic eminating from the guy. I don't agree with all your reasons but at least they are founded on something tangible.
- old, he may be a year older than the average rookie QB but imo he's a year closer to hitting the field as well. He's actually won big, pressure packed games against defensive players that will be playing on Sunday.
- undersized, maybe but haven't the same things been said about Goff and Mariota? It just seems like this is made to be a bigger deal for Cook than those other guys. Maybe it's due to a perma-scar from the Ryan Leaf days but I tend not to write off the Brees/Brady/Montana guys when they come out of college based on size alone.
- inaccurate, this is likely the biggest red flag to me. First, again the level of competition has to factor in a bit doesn't it? I mean if you are consistently winning against big programs doesn't completing just under 60% of your passes mean as much or more than completing under 65% of your passes beating something called Jacksonville State in your "championship"? Secondly, maybe this is a crutch argument but I have read that the offense Cook played in was more of a vertical passing game which often leads to lower completion %. I honestly don't know how true that is but it's something I have read. You would really need to watch an entire season rather than a few games to know for sure if that was the case I suppose.
- arm strength, almost every scout I have heard says that arm strenth is the single most over-rated attribute when rating a QB. Maybe he was hurt, but maybe he does have a weak arm. Based on the 2014 tape were there throws that it looked like he couldn't make? That 2014 tape leads me to believe the injury talk may be more than just an excuse.
I think you bring up valid concerns, but I just don't put as much weight on them as some people do. Perhaps most importantly I guess I don't see many other QB's that have any fewer concerns. I just feel like grabbing an award and the like rubs people the wrong way. Look, he does look like he belongs in Cobra Kai and sounds immature at times but are NFL teams so set at QB they can drop this guy 1-3 rounds based on that alone? We aren't talking about drug test immature..... we're talking about "he's grabby with post game awards". At one point does the fact he earned the award while the game was actually going on overcome that? There are people who would still never want Cam Newton on their team because he wore a towel on his head while sitting on the bench for crying out loud. This silly stuff makes for some great narratives but seems to be a poor way of evaluating how a guy plays the game. Again, I am not accusing YOU of making those arguments thankfully but every one of his critics in the media lean heavily on them. We shall see.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
This!wdcrob said:
I've looked at his 'accuracy issues' and I can't explain away some of his bad throws.
Accuracy is the issue with Cook that I can't overcome before I could factor in any personality quirks that some place before his primary issue and that is accuracy.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I'm a spartan fan and live in the area, and I never heard any of the talk of him being disliked by teammates or partying. I was really excited over the first two years because he got noticably better every game. He kind of plateaued his senior year, perhaps due to injury. His trophy grab was unfortunate, but the media coverage after that stopped there. He made a very sincere apology explaining he was caught up in te moment that didn't get any recognition, now he's labeled "flippant" or "arrogant". Look at the recent knocks on him- "something seems off, I can't really put a finger on it". Msu wr core hasn't had any game changers in quite a while either. Sure it's a homer/apologist take, but I can't just watch people tear this kid down. I think the "red flags" are being blown out of proportion.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Hey Snork,
Since you are an MSU fan and have seen this kid play, what do you think of the accuracy issues and I'm sure you know what I mean. Throws that come out of nowhere that stun you. His bottom line completion percentage was bad so I went back to look at some of his bad throws and I was left scratching my head. I just can't overcome his accuracy issues.
Do you think it is fair to question his accuracy?
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Yeah I think that's fair. 2013 he was managing games, occasionally sailing a pass or making a wrong read but progressed. 2014 I thought that he can make all the throws that are asked of in the nfl. Showed poise in te pocket and the ability to sense the rush and set up blockers. Showed poise under pressure late in games to put his team in a position to win. If I had to knock him on something it would be that he's not as accurate as you'd like, but not so much that he's out there chucking every ball over open wrs. 2015 he didn't take the step forward that I hoped, if he had we would be having a different discussion. I don't think he regressed, just didn't look better like he had week by week up to then. Perhaps it's the shoulder injury, maybe he wasn't putting in the time and was busy being big man on campus. Either way I think a little time can cure both. I see him being less of a project than some of this years qbs, what you have is what you get. Could start now if needed more than wentz/lynch/hack. Close to maxed potential.
As far as accuracy I've seen him make great throws in tight windows, drive the ball downfield, get it in the wrs hands at the right time on hitches and screens, make reads and use all his options, can sell play action well, and lead his wrs. Accuracy isn't his strength, but I wouldn't describe him as inaccurate or let that scare me off.
As far as accuracy I've seen him make great throws in tight windows, drive the ball downfield, get it in the wrs hands at the right time on hitches and screens, make reads and use all his options, can sell play action well, and lead his wrs. Accuracy isn't his strength, but I wouldn't describe him as inaccurate or let that scare me off.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
He has everything in terms of baseline size, etc. That is fine by me. I LOVE that he makes NFL throws and completely agree with all of your points pertaining to his strengths but I don't think accuracy can be taught. This is the deal breaker for me with Cook. The personality quirks might be more sensational to others but my bottom line with Cook is accuracy.
A few years ago, Pittsburgh's GM said he looks for a completion percentage of over 63% for any college QB and he would red flag anyone below 61%, that stuck with me. Jake Locker is a guy that immediately comes to mind. Big guy, great arm, tough, etc, poor accuracy and he never overcame that fault in the NFL. Other guys have accuracy issues with certain throws that they never overcame like a Brady Quinn who has the worst deep ball accuracy I've ever seen.
Cook is inconsistent with his accuracy and that is mind boggling because you see the tight window throws, you see the really impressive deep out NFL big time throws and then you see a ball that isn't anywhere near his target and you just scratch your head. I can't overlook this fault with Cook. I think this will stay with him throughout his NFL career.
The accuracy issues worry me as well. Have heard the same thing about Hackenberg.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
There are some warts, for sure. Time can cure his maturity and shoulder issues, not his accuracy. He tends to not set his feet when he throws late in his progressions, when he gets to 3rd-4th read or throwing to the rbs (of all things). The qbs around him have issues too. I think he makes sense for a team like Denver or Baltimore, a backup that fits the system. Could win a game for you. Could manage the right team with success. I don't expect a prolific career. If I'm Denver and I think Sanchez is too mistake prone I have to look at him at the end of rd 1 (or trade back into early rd 2 sounds better), over the qbs available. Unique situation tho, if they don't like him then he could free fall. With all the bad qb situations in the nfl it seems like there aren't a lot of jobs up for grabs.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Some good information in this video.
I snipped out some.
This video went over the top QB prospects comparing their stats from the 2015 season but there wasn't enough data from Carson Wentz since he got injured last year so I only grabbed the information from, Cook, Lynch, and Goff. Go to the link to see the video, good stuff here.
https://realfootballnetwork.com/2016/04/21/the-rest-of-the-qb-class/
Connor Cook completion percentage metrics
QBs under pressure comparative metrics
- Facing 3 or less pass rushers -
Connor Cook 52.4%
Jared Goff 56.9%
Paxton Lynch 70.9%
- Facing 4 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 60.4%
Jared Goff 67.3%
Paxton Lynch 65.7%
- Facing 5 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 58.7%
Jared Goff 62.6%
Paxton Lynch 69.6%
- Facing 6 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 35.4%
Jared Goff 60.6%
Paxton Lynch 50.0%
This shows that Jared Goff stands tall in the pocket and handles pressure well but it says the opposite for Connor Cook.
Where Cook stands out is with his deep ball accuracy, passes over 20 yards.
- QB completion on deep pass attempts 21+ yards -
Connor Cook 47.4%
Jared Goff 43.8%
Paxton Lynch 44.9%
Cook struggled with his accuracy on the more commonly attempted shorter routes
- QB completion on intermediate pass attempts 11-20 yards -
Connor Cook 54.0%
Jared Goff 58.8%
Paxton Lynch 54.6%
- QB completion on short pass attempts 0-10 yards -
Connor Cook 56.3%
Jared Goff 66.7%
Paxton Lynch 67.7%
- QB completion on pass attempts behind the line of scrimmage 0 to -10 yards -
Connor Cook 75.6%
Jared Goff 89.5%
Paxton Lynch 86.1%
--------
You can see a couple of glaring red flags on accuracy for Cook, especially when he's under pressure and with his short passing game. Derrick Anderson had terrible short yardage accuracy and he's never overcome that weakness in his game. Cook has two red flags, short game accuracy and he obviously struggles when he faces more than 5 pass rushers so you'd have to logically conclude he would struggle when faced with sophisticated blitz packages that he would be served in the NFL.
I snipped out some.
This video went over the top QB prospects comparing their stats from the 2015 season but there wasn't enough data from Carson Wentz since he got injured last year so I only grabbed the information from, Cook, Lynch, and Goff. Go to the link to see the video, good stuff here.
https://realfootballnetwork.com/2016/04/21/the-rest-of-the-qb-class/
Connor Cook completion percentage metrics
QBs under pressure comparative metrics
- Facing 3 or less pass rushers -
Connor Cook 52.4%
Jared Goff 56.9%
Paxton Lynch 70.9%
- Facing 4 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 60.4%
Jared Goff 67.3%
Paxton Lynch 65.7%
- Facing 5 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 58.7%
Jared Goff 62.6%
Paxton Lynch 69.6%
- Facing 6 pass rushers -
Connor Cook 35.4%
Jared Goff 60.6%
Paxton Lynch 50.0%
This shows that Jared Goff stands tall in the pocket and handles pressure well but it says the opposite for Connor Cook.
Where Cook stands out is with his deep ball accuracy, passes over 20 yards.
- QB completion on deep pass attempts 21+ yards -
Connor Cook 47.4%
Jared Goff 43.8%
Paxton Lynch 44.9%
Cook struggled with his accuracy on the more commonly attempted shorter routes
- QB completion on intermediate pass attempts 11-20 yards -
Connor Cook 54.0%
Jared Goff 58.8%
Paxton Lynch 54.6%
- QB completion on short pass attempts 0-10 yards -
Connor Cook 56.3%
Jared Goff 66.7%
Paxton Lynch 67.7%
- QB completion on pass attempts behind the line of scrimmage 0 to -10 yards -
Connor Cook 75.6%
Jared Goff 89.5%
Paxton Lynch 86.1%
--------
You can see a couple of glaring red flags on accuracy for Cook, especially when he's under pressure and with his short passing game. Derrick Anderson had terrible short yardage accuracy and he's never overcome that weakness in his game. Cook has two red flags, short game accuracy and he obviously struggles when he faces more than 5 pass rushers so you'd have to logically conclude he would struggle when faced with sophisticated blitz packages that he would be served in the NFL.
A team doesn't draft a backup at the end of rd 1 or beginning of round 2, no matter how desperate they are. If he ends up being drafted that high, they envision him as a starter.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Agree that you don't draft a backup then but Denver may need him to start, and I see him being more pro ready than most in this class with a lower ceiling career wise. He makes sense as a backup for a team like Baltimore, or a similar offense, later on if he starts to fall.
Nice post with the passing metrics, it really illustrates the issue. If that's for the 2015 season id be curious as to his splits for the 14 season.
Nice post with the passing metrics, it really illustrates the issue. If that's for the 2015 season id be curious as to his splits for the 14 season.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Cook might be a good fit with his deep ball accuracy in a vertical passing attack like with Norv Turner in Minnesota backing up Teddy.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
The only reason i bring up Denver is the situation and need. He seems like backup talent unless his shoulder is to blame and he has a stronger arm than demonstrated. For a team with ?? At qb and a Super Bowl window open now he could make sense if Denver reached. He also may be there in the 2nd or 3rd.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I don't know if he's the best fit for a Gary Kubiak offense that is predicated on quick/short passing attack with play-action and a roll-boot staple. Just doesn't feel like a good fit especially if they keep quick-hitting short gimme plays that Peyton used but I do know Kubiak's system has a moving pocket so the best fit is someone who can move and sell play-action.
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