Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Sammy flat dropped two passes also. One of them got on him quickly as he turned around, so it's hard to be too critical on that one.
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WR Sammy Watkins, BAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Carter_Can_Fly
- Start date
Milkman
Footballguy
Seems like Watkins started breaking out earlier in the season, teams took notice started rolling coverage over to him, and he's not a transcendent athlete that you can just throw the ball up to and let him go get it so he's struggling beating that extra attention. He's not always open like Gordon, Jeffery, and maybe even Evans.
He still has elite acceleration, good hands, and runs good routes. He's going to be a good WR on a low volume passing attack with no QB. If he played with Rodgers he'd be a top 10 WR in the league.
He still has elite acceleration, good hands, and runs good routes. He's going to be a good WR on a low volume passing attack with no QB. If he played with Rodgers he'd be a top 10 WR in the league.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Wow, playing against Watkins tonight and the other guy only needed like 9 points. I was shocked to see he didn't get it. Did he get hurt or was it game flow?
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Milkman nice do you see you back.
You don't watch many Bills games do you? Watkins is OPEN a lot and often times it looks effortless.
After week 8 when Evans was putting up modest numbers you were not in here spouting this.
Also, Gordon ended his rookie year with 50 receptions for 805 yards and 5 td's.
Jeffery ended his rookie year with 24 catches for 367 yards and 3 td's.
Watkins with 5 games left has 48 receptions for 584 yards and 5 td's. Watkins already has surpassed Jeffery's rookie year, and he will pass Gordon's as well. Nice bait though.
You don't watch many Bills games do you? Watkins is OPEN a lot and often times it looks effortless.
After week 8 when Evans was putting up modest numbers you were not in here spouting this.
Also, Gordon ended his rookie year with 50 receptions for 805 yards and 5 td's.
Jeffery ended his rookie year with 24 catches for 367 yards and 3 td's.
Watkins with 5 games left has 48 receptions for 584 yards and 5 td's. Watkins already has surpassed Jeffery's rookie year, and he will pass Gordon's as well. Nice bait though.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Unfortunately he doesn't have Vincent Jackson on the other side drawing the other teams #1 corner.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
It's true. Both great receivers. Right now Watkins is garnering a lot more attention
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
You are changing your argument to going with negative player overall from PFF stats. How was Evans overall PFF the first 8 weeks? Or Gordon's and Jeffery's PFF their rookie years?
I am going to guess you are not watching many Bills games. Watkins is open often for those that are watching the games.
Shutout
Footballguy
GreenBaySnackers
Footballguy
Bills are absolutely terrible at utilizing him. He made 57% of his catches behind the LOS in college. I've seen him targeted there a grand total of 0 times in the 5 Bills games I've watched this year.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
And he gets Haden this week.
Yay.
Yay.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
I said it when he was drafted and I'll repeat it now, Buffalo was maybe the worst possible place for Watkins to land. This is a team that wants to be the Seahawks or the Chiefs, feature the run game with a conservative pass offense that wins on the strength of it defense. TB and NYG and even Carolina have to force the ball to their talented young WRs because they have no other options.
Orton is never going to force the ball to Watkins because his main job is to not turn the ball over. Orton is going to take the open option and only has 3 ints on the year because of it.
Orton is never going to force the ball to Watkins because his main job is to not turn the ball over. Orton is going to take the open option and only has 3 ints on the year because of it.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
It's sad when a conservative offensive system stifles an elite talent. It's like the old joke, the only person who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points was Dean Smith.
mnmplayer
Footballguy
Not a fair comparison. Gordon was a supplemental pick and was not groomed to be the WR1 from day one like Sammy/Kelvin, etc. Little was the starter at the beginning of the season and not until well into the season did Gordon take over that role. It's like trying to compare Martavis Bryant to Sammy Watkins and bragging how Sammy has more total yards (he has less TDs). Yeah Sammy has more yards, but Bryant missed the first 6 games of the season.
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Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Maybe I should have said easier option, look at Evans and Beckham, their QBs are just putting it out there and hoping they win it. Cam is forcing the ball to Benjamin in double coverage.
Meanwhile Orton checks down to Fjax or finds Hogan or Woods rather than try to force a big play.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
First off Watkins has had a good rookie year thus far even though it has been frustrating watching Bills game and seeing missed opportunities. The coaching staff needs to utilize Watkins more consistently each week. There have been times that Watkins does not start seeing targets till into the second half.
Watkins is going to be a great one, and he will thrive in Buffalo. Even with Orton as a stop gap at QB, Watkins will be fine, but it would be nice to see the Bills think of a QB of the future.
Watkins is going to be a great one, and he will thrive in Buffalo. Even with Orton as a stop gap at QB, Watkins will be fine, but it would be nice to see the Bills think of a QB of the future.
slackjawedyokel
Footballguy
Sitting him for Benjamin today. Do or die, can't rely on him getting the opportunities needed to score points. :(
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Being shown up by Woods/Hogan again so far.
LargeMouthBass
Footballguy
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
My point wasn't that the Bills should force it to Watkins they are winning doing what they are doing.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Droppable in redraft.
Jack White
Footballguy
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
He's got a hip injury now, too. ABORT! ABORT!!!
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
True.
They should be doing a bit more of that. That is, designing plays for him. They had one swing/screen to him this past game. They need a few more of those per game...
He's got 10, 7, 5, and 9 targets in the last 4 games, 33 total.
For a whopping 13-105-0.
The Bills are 2-2 in those games (losing to KC/Miami and beating NYJ/Cle).
He was shadowed by Haden last game, and only caught 3 passes on 9 targets.
He's a rookie WR, all the talent in the world - but still a rookie.
Definitely games there where he underperformed, but he's had to face some tough passing defenses in KC, Miami (Grimes), and Cleveland (Haden).
To me it shows he can't beat 1 on 1 coverage by top DBs - because he got 10, 7 and 9 targets in the games mentioned above, respectively.
The 5 targets came against the Jets, who have the worst pass defense of the bunch - starting walk on CBs essentially.
Woods has really picked up the slack, and is the more reliable WR in reality and in fantasy.
Watkins reminds me a lot of Torrey Smith, he's going to have big games... but then he's going to disappear because he can't consistently beat the top corners/coverage.
Maybe he improves moving forward, but I'd temper expectations. The great/elite WRs find a way, and don't use their QB as an excuse.
# of targets in brackets
Josh Gordon (29 - 2 games), DeAndre Hopkins (90), Mike Evans(91), Kelvin Benjamin(110), and Anquan Boldin (100) have all had successful years with poor QB play.
While Watkins numbers aren't bad, he has received 98 targets - and its defintely arguable that his QB isn't any better or worse than the above wrs.
He averages >2ppg less (in ppr) than the above WRs.
His running mate, Robert Woods has 82 targets... 2 less catches (49)... 2 less TDs, and 140 less yards.
For a whopping 13-105-0.
The Bills are 2-2 in those games (losing to KC/Miami and beating NYJ/Cle).
He was shadowed by Haden last game, and only caught 3 passes on 9 targets.
He's a rookie WR, all the talent in the world - but still a rookie.
Definitely games there where he underperformed, but he's had to face some tough passing defenses in KC, Miami (Grimes), and Cleveland (Haden).
To me it shows he can't beat 1 on 1 coverage by top DBs - because he got 10, 7 and 9 targets in the games mentioned above, respectively.
The 5 targets came against the Jets, who have the worst pass defense of the bunch - starting walk on CBs essentially.
Woods has really picked up the slack, and is the more reliable WR in reality and in fantasy.
Watkins reminds me a lot of Torrey Smith, he's going to have big games... but then he's going to disappear because he can't consistently beat the top corners/coverage.
Maybe he improves moving forward, but I'd temper expectations. The great/elite WRs find a way, and don't use their QB as an excuse.
# of targets in brackets
Josh Gordon (29 - 2 games), DeAndre Hopkins (90), Mike Evans(91), Kelvin Benjamin(110), and Anquan Boldin (100) have all had successful years with poor QB play.
While Watkins numbers aren't bad, he has received 98 targets - and its defintely arguable that his QB isn't any better or worse than the above wrs.
He averages >2ppg less (in ppr) than the above WRs.
His running mate, Robert Woods has 82 targets... 2 less catches (49)... 2 less TDs, and 140 less yards.
LargeMouthBass
Footballguy
Last 4 weeks he's scored less than 15 points total. Uggghhh
Is this the week where the Bills are forced to throw though?
It's either him or Jordan Matthews.
Anyone starting him this week confidence? Thoughts?
Is this the week where the Bills are forced to throw though?
It's either him or Jordan Matthews.
Anyone starting him this week confidence? Thoughts?
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
This thread put the Footballguys curse on that one.
Team Smokin'
Footballguy
I cannot imagine anyone starting Sammy Watkins with any kind of confidence. It's hit or miss.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Statistically, no, it's not a thing. There's no reason to believe that rookies perform worse in the second half of the season than they do in the first.
It doesn't matter if they are forced to throw. Even when they are Orton then becomes Captain Checkdown.The last time they were forced to throw late was against the Dolphins and it seems like almost all the passes late went to Brown and Dixon.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Fred Jackson lead the team in receptions this week.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Can you elaborate on this playing small thing. Watkins was going off and playing so well was he playing small then? This fascination with WR's having to be big is just not true. The best WR in the league right now is 5'10 Antonio Brown. Emmanuel Sanders at 5'10 looks unrecoverable this year. ODB at 5'11 is doing ok. What about that TY Hilton guy at 5'9 man if only he was taller. Golden Tate at 5'10 is such a midget and is struggling. Edelman is 5'10 and is a pos.
I want you to look at that above list and then notice the trend. Those are all sub 6 feet guys, but look at the qb's: Big Ben, Manning, Luck, Stafford, Manning, Brady. Then I want you to look at the issue with Sammy Watkins who is also a rookie and tell me the problem.
Milkman
Footballguy
Being a small WR is/was not a common trait for elite WR but these new rules are making it easier to be successful as a smaller receiver. So it might not be as big of a deal now. There is little doubt average size for an elite WR was trending up. Always exceptions but that trend was there.Carter_Can_Fly said:
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Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
What do you see when you watch the others mentioned?
Also, how can you say small in presence? Multiple times defenses have shadowed him with their #1 CB. That doesn't exactly happen all the time.
matuski
Footballguy
Same thing you do, a bigger presence and impact on the field.
Completely confused on the last statement. #1 CBs tend to be on #1 WRs.. pretty much all the time (as often as they can)?
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