NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
My favorite thread in months.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
World War II (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
If Germany should prove to be victorious, she will leave the war too weakened to start a war with the USSR within a decade at least. She will have to supervise the occupation of France and England and to prevent their restoration/restore herself.
In addition, a victorious Germany will have vast colonies/territories; the exploitation of those and their adaptation to German methods will also absorb Germany during several decades.
Obviously, this Germany will be too busy elsewhere to turn against us. There is one additional thing that will strengthen our safety. In a conquered France, the French Communist Party will always be very strong. A Communist revolution will unavoidably break out, and we will be able to exploit the situation and to come to the aid of France and make her our ally. In addition, all the nations that fall under the "protection" of a victorious Germany will become our allies. This presents for us a broad field of action for the initiation of world revolution.
This last part of Stalin's speech is amazingly short sided. He was seriously deluding himself.
In addition, a victorious Germany will have vast colonies/territories; the exploitation of those and their adaptation to German methods will also absorb Germany during several decades.
Obviously, this Germany will be too busy elsewhere to turn against us. There is one additional thing that will strengthen our safety. In a conquered France, the French Communist Party will always be very strong. A Communist revolution will unavoidably break out, and we will be able to exploit the situation and to come to the aid of France and make her our ally. In addition, all the nations that fall under the "protection" of a victorious Germany will become our allies. This presents for us a broad field of action for the initiation of world revolution.
This last part of Stalin's speech is amazingly short sided. He was seriously deluding himself.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
True. However, on the other side, (not the short one
), Stalin used the two years to rebuild his officer corp, which had been devastated in the purges. He also improved his armaments immensely, perhaps most importantly in the development of the T-34 tank. This led to the strategic and tactical defeat of the Germans at Kursk, the greatest tank battle in history, after which the German Army was in almost constant retreat. As happens with all hypothetical situations, there are two sides to the story. I am not sure that the eventual defeat of Germany would have happened had it not been for the Nazi Soviet Pact.
timschochet
Footballguy
Tommorow we'll examine the military situation in August 1939 of the four nations which began World War II: Germany, Poland, England, and France.
My Father served on the USS New Mexico in the South Pacific.Something like from '41-'45.
Came home and married his girl in smalltown NJ,built a house and had 3 kids,myself the youngest.
He was 17 or 18 when he enlisted,and passed away in 1993.I never ever will be the man he was.
USSNew Mexico
He rarely talked about the war in front of us kids,but did a few times after quite a few beers.
One story I'll never forget,after a battle,maybe a kamakaze attack,he knew a friend of his was killed by the ring on severed hand/finger.
Another story was a Kamakaze pilot parachuted from his plane and ditched in the water away from the ship.He was picked up and many of the crew wanted to kill him,but were prevented from doing so.
I have been told by my father and others online with family that served on the NM that the Surrender honors were scheduled to take place on the NM,but Truman being from MO wanted it to happen on the Missouri.
Came home and married his girl in smalltown NJ,built a house and had 3 kids,myself the youngest.
He was 17 or 18 when he enlisted,and passed away in 1993.I never ever will be the man he was.
USSNew Mexico
He rarely talked about the war in front of us kids,but did a few times after quite a few beers.
One story I'll never forget,after a battle,maybe a kamakaze attack,he knew a friend of his was killed by the ring on severed hand/finger.
Another story was a Kamakaze pilot parachuted from his plane and ditched in the water away from the ship.He was picked up and many of the crew wanted to kill him,but were prevented from doing so.
I have been told by my father and others online with family that served on the NM that the Surrender honors were scheduled to take place on the NM,but Truman being from MO wanted it to happen on the Missouri.
SpecOpLoad
Footballguy
Col Hans-Ulrich Rudel (519 tank kills in the Ju-87) would beg to differ on this point. Yes the Stuka was used poorly as a light/medium bomber (cross channel) BUT it was extremely effective in tank-busting/ground support (eastern front) until the very end of the war. Obviously tactics had to change to support these low/slow flyers BUT it was still effective when thoughtfully employed despite its obsolescense.
Last edited by a moderator:
fissure man
Footballguy
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I agree it was shameful. However, there was a very strong "peace at any price" mentality in England, as there was in the US. Rapturous crowds greeted Chamberlain on his return. I don't think the world appreciated then the voracious appetite that Hitler had for more conquest, and they thought that appeasing him would satisfy the beast. Churchill, and others, saw it for what it was. An act of moral cowardice.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
This is one of those topics in which Timmay is a huge asset to the FFA. 
timschochet
Footballguy
The German military in August 1939
Heading into the war, the Germans were ill-prepared for it. In fact, most of the general staff of the Wehrmacht army wanted another 2-3 years to build up their numbers of tanks and artillery. Yet at the same time they were more prepared than all of the others.
Army
The Wehrmacht had over a million men at arms, fanatically loyal to the German state and with a high moral factor. They believed (and continued to believe throughout most of the war) that they would not lose under Hitler, which is always a key element to success in combat. As we shall see, they had some of the most brilliant military minds ever to live in charge of their affairs, including Heinz Guderian, who is of special note here. It was Guderian who conceived the idea of massing tanks together and using their speed to attack ahead of the main force. His book, Achtung, Panzer! in the early 1930's related this idea. Others came up with similar plans: J.C. Fuller in England, and Charles De Gaulle in France, but they were rejected by the military leaders of those states. Guderian's plan was accepted by Hitler. Combined with coordinated air attacks, the tank attacks would form the Blitzkrieg, "Lightning War" which would so dominate the first few years of the war.
Air Force
From 1933 onwards Hitler had spared no expense building up his air force. By 1935 he had achieved air parity with Britain and never looked back. Three planes dominated the Luftwaffe- the Stuka, already discussed, which was a nod to the American dive bomber but adapted to land battles, and the Messerschmidt fighters and bombers, which were much better made planes. There were four weaknesses to the Luftwaffe, which would eventually be revealed in the war:
1. The Messerschmidts, fine as they were, were not as maneveuerable as the airplanes they would eventually face in the Royal Aif Force (Spitfires and Hurricanes).
2. The Germans entered the war with too few pilots (about 1,500). By 1943 most of these were dead, and the level of air combat was severely lowered.
3. The British had radar, the Germans did not. The Germans entered the war unaware of this technology.
4. Worst of all, the commander of the Luftwaffe was Hermann Goering. Although he had been an air war hero himself in the FIrst World War, Goering had nothing in common with the brilliant professional minds of the German General Staff. He was a miltary idiot, a bombastic amateur, as he would demonstrate time and again. All of the other weaknesses I mentioned could have been overcome, but not this one.
Navy
The Germans entered the war with a vastly inferior navy to England and France. They did have a few pocket battleships (including the Graf Spee) and one major battleship (The Bismarck) under construction, but they could not hope to equal their enemies in ability or numbers. What they did have was U-Boats (submarines). In 1918 these nearly toppled the British Empire by destroying all shipping, and now they threatened to do the same. The U-Boats had some brilliant commanders under the overal command of Admiral Doenitz. Unfortunatly, there were too few: 54 operational in August of 1939. Doenitz pleaded with Hitler to wait a year to begin the war, at which point he might have over 80 operational U-Boats, but this was not to be. Throughout the war, Doenitz never felt he had enough U-Boats and always fought with the other armed services for the allocation of resources.
Heading into the war, the Germans were ill-prepared for it. In fact, most of the general staff of the Wehrmacht army wanted another 2-3 years to build up their numbers of tanks and artillery. Yet at the same time they were more prepared than all of the others.
Army
The Wehrmacht had over a million men at arms, fanatically loyal to the German state and with a high moral factor. They believed (and continued to believe throughout most of the war) that they would not lose under Hitler, which is always a key element to success in combat. As we shall see, they had some of the most brilliant military minds ever to live in charge of their affairs, including Heinz Guderian, who is of special note here. It was Guderian who conceived the idea of massing tanks together and using their speed to attack ahead of the main force. His book, Achtung, Panzer! in the early 1930's related this idea. Others came up with similar plans: J.C. Fuller in England, and Charles De Gaulle in France, but they were rejected by the military leaders of those states. Guderian's plan was accepted by Hitler. Combined with coordinated air attacks, the tank attacks would form the Blitzkrieg, "Lightning War" which would so dominate the first few years of the war.
Air Force
From 1933 onwards Hitler had spared no expense building up his air force. By 1935 he had achieved air parity with Britain and never looked back. Three planes dominated the Luftwaffe- the Stuka, already discussed, which was a nod to the American dive bomber but adapted to land battles, and the Messerschmidt fighters and bombers, which were much better made planes. There were four weaknesses to the Luftwaffe, which would eventually be revealed in the war:
1. The Messerschmidts, fine as they were, were not as maneveuerable as the airplanes they would eventually face in the Royal Aif Force (Spitfires and Hurricanes).
2. The Germans entered the war with too few pilots (about 1,500). By 1943 most of these were dead, and the level of air combat was severely lowered.
3. The British had radar, the Germans did not. The Germans entered the war unaware of this technology.
4. Worst of all, the commander of the Luftwaffe was Hermann Goering. Although he had been an air war hero himself in the FIrst World War, Goering had nothing in common with the brilliant professional minds of the German General Staff. He was a miltary idiot, a bombastic amateur, as he would demonstrate time and again. All of the other weaknesses I mentioned could have been overcome, but not this one.
Navy
The Germans entered the war with a vastly inferior navy to England and France. They did have a few pocket battleships (including the Graf Spee) and one major battleship (The Bismarck) under construction, but they could not hope to equal their enemies in ability or numbers. What they did have was U-Boats (submarines). In 1918 these nearly toppled the British Empire by destroying all shipping, and now they threatened to do the same. The U-Boats had some brilliant commanders under the overal command of Admiral Doenitz. Unfortunatly, there were too few: 54 operational in August of 1939. Doenitz pleaded with Hitler to wait a year to begin the war, at which point he might have over 80 operational U-Boats, but this was not to be. Throughout the war, Doenitz never felt he had enough U-Boats and always fought with the other armed services for the allocation of resources.
Twilight
Footballguy
Don't really have much in the way of stories, but my mom grew up in Germany, including the war years. She was the second oldest of 8 (born 1930) and spent the war years helping feed and take care of her family. The oldest brother was killed in Action somewhere in Africa. Her dad was a blacksmith, and died a few years after the war ended from health issues from working conditions in the factories.
Your whole premise is faulty. Stalin did understand that Germany was going to attack. It was just a matter of when. He did not trust the British or French to come to his aid precisely because they gave up so easily on the Sudetenland. He also knew that the British did not want to go to war and Hitler was attempting to strike a peace accord with them.The sole reason he signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact was to buy time. He also bought land in Poland. As you previously stated, Guderian thought that the land given up by Germany in Poland was the reason they did not reach Moscow.
Given these facts, it is quite possible that the Nazi-Soviet pact is what saved the Soviet Union and won the war for the Allies.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Not entirely true as the Russian Army was not prepared to fight Hitler and they knew it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Redwes25
Footballguy
This is all very true. I would suggest anyone interested in WWII read this book - When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (Modern War Studies) http://www.amazon.com/When-Titans-Clashed-...7306&sr=1-9Gives a view of the war that most people in the West know nothing about and what the war on eastern front was like. The western front is really a side show compared to the fighting in the east.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Polish Military in 1939
After being divided up throughout it's history between Germany, Russia, and the Ukraine, Poland became an independent state in 1916, for the first time in 300 years, at the whim of the League of Nations. The Polish leaders demanded access to the sea, so they were given the port of Gdansk (Danzig in German) which effectively cut the main part of Germany off from east Prussia. This made the Germans furious and in fact was the impetus for the outbreak of the war.
Poland was an idiotic state. Their first action upon becoming independent was to attack Russia, even though they didn't have anywhere near the military manpower. After a bloody three year conflict in which nothing was accomplished, a truce (never a peace) was established. The Polish state was formed as a Republic, but very soon its first president, Pilsudski, ended all elections and formed a dictatorship. Upon his death in 1935, a group of military colonels took over. They did nothing to improve the terrible conditions of the country: 5% Paris, 95% Ukraine. No middle class to speak of, except perhaps the three and half million Jews, who were roundly hated by most of the rest of the population and under severe restriction and taxation. Because of their military, the Polish colonels considered themselves a world power and haughtily made treaties and alliances as if they were.
The military was 2 million strong, one of the largest on Earth. In the elite position were the gallant Ulany, at that time the greatest calvary men in existence. They would have been an asset to any any army that fought, say, in the Civil War. They were brave to the extreme. Unfortunately technology and industrialized warfare had moved past them, but they did not realize it. They did not believe it. Their commanders told these men in August of 1939 that the German tanks were made of paper mache.
Military experts advised the Poles in August of 1939 to pull back behind the Vistula River and defend central Poland. This would allow the French time to invade from the west. (These experts did not concieve the French might not attack; neither did the Poles.) The Poles refused to consider giving up any part of Poland to the enemy. Instead, they arrayed their troops all along the borders with Germany. If the Germans attacked (which they doubted), the plan was they would immediately counter-attack, and Polish troops would be in Berlin before German troops reached Warsaw. After all, this is what Napoleon would have done!
Next month we shall see how effective this plan turned out...
After being divided up throughout it's history between Germany, Russia, and the Ukraine, Poland became an independent state in 1916, for the first time in 300 years, at the whim of the League of Nations. The Polish leaders demanded access to the sea, so they were given the port of Gdansk (Danzig in German) which effectively cut the main part of Germany off from east Prussia. This made the Germans furious and in fact was the impetus for the outbreak of the war.
Poland was an idiotic state. Their first action upon becoming independent was to attack Russia, even though they didn't have anywhere near the military manpower. After a bloody three year conflict in which nothing was accomplished, a truce (never a peace) was established. The Polish state was formed as a Republic, but very soon its first president, Pilsudski, ended all elections and formed a dictatorship. Upon his death in 1935, a group of military colonels took over. They did nothing to improve the terrible conditions of the country: 5% Paris, 95% Ukraine. No middle class to speak of, except perhaps the three and half million Jews, who were roundly hated by most of the rest of the population and under severe restriction and taxation. Because of their military, the Polish colonels considered themselves a world power and haughtily made treaties and alliances as if they were.
The military was 2 million strong, one of the largest on Earth. In the elite position were the gallant Ulany, at that time the greatest calvary men in existence. They would have been an asset to any any army that fought, say, in the Civil War. They were brave to the extreme. Unfortunately technology and industrialized warfare had moved past them, but they did not realize it. They did not believe it. Their commanders told these men in August of 1939 that the German tanks were made of paper mache.
Military experts advised the Poles in August of 1939 to pull back behind the Vistula River and defend central Poland. This would allow the French time to invade from the west. (These experts did not concieve the French might not attack; neither did the Poles.) The Poles refused to consider giving up any part of Poland to the enemy. Instead, they arrayed their troops all along the borders with Germany. If the Germans attacked (which they doubted), the plan was they would immediately counter-attack, and Polish troops would be in Berlin before German troops reached Warsaw. After all, this is what Napoleon would have done!
Next month we shall see how effective this plan turned out...
timschochet
Footballguy
Obviously, Christo and I disagree about whether or not the Nazi-Soviet Pact was a good decision for Stalin. I have stated my reasons. There are many books that disagree with my position, and there are many books that agree with my position as well. This issue is one of the most hotly debated regarding World War II. I would say that a small majority of military experts would tend to side with Christo's viewpoint on this, though my viewpoint has no lack of defenders, including William L. Shirer, Allan Bullock, and Martin Gilbert, all famed historians of the era.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Please! Do we have to wait that long?
Redwes25
Footballguy
I think it is hard to know if it is a bad decision, good decision or one that doesn't change anything. So what if he doesn't sign the pact. Hitler probably still invades Poland and what does Russia do - join the West to stop him or let the all of Poland fall to Germany. Do you think Hitler goes to War to protect Poland? I personally don't think so since England can't raise a large Army at this point and France is sitting behind the Maginot line. So Poland falls quickly and then France and much of the West and then Russia is invaded about the sametime.In the end I don't think it really changes anything.timschochet said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Chadstroma
Footballguy
It was still effective when there was no Allied airpower or ground units had no anti-aircraft batteries but it took heavy losses in the later half of the war due to it being basically too slow. The same elements that made it a great dive bomber early was what made it obsolete later in the war. The high drag of its wings, which allowed for more control at lower speeds, made it a hopeless case against enemy fighter planes or AAA.I am not talking about its ill use in the Battle of Britain (although the Stuka would have been the perfect weapon of choice if the Luftwaffe had decided to first focus on the radar installations of the British instead of ignoring them) but rather the later part of the war. They were still used and could be effective against armor and other vehicles but it is a documented fact that they increasingly took heavier losses. Units were switched to Fw 190 and even Me 109's. Stuka's served to the end of the war but they had long ago seen their zenith.SpecOpLoad said:
Chadstroma
Footballguy
The command structure mess was more of a later war phenom than it was in 1939. Up to and including the invasion of Poland, the SS units counted as a few regiments that were largely within the overall Wehrmacht command. It was later in the war that you had a command structure that was insane. Not only did the Wehrmacht, SS, Luftwaffe all have separate command structures but the Panzer divisions in western Europe were directly under the Fuhrer. That lead to the famous moment on D-Day that Hitler was not to be woken up and the Panzer units sat and waited as the Allies gained a beach head in Normandy.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
And if it hadn't been for you, they probably would have.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Obviously Stalin did not take into account that the French Army was.... well.... French. (sorry, could not resist)
Except for the Einsatzgruppen which were always under SS command. In May 1939, Adolf Hitler decided upon an invasion of Poland planned for August 25 of that year (later moved back to September 1). In response, Heydrich again re-formed the Einsatzgruppen to travel in the wake of the German armies. Unlike the earlier operations, Heydrich gave the Einsatzgruppen commanders carte blanche to kill anyone belonging to groups that the Germans considered hostile. After the occupation of Poland in 1939, the Einsatzgruppen killed Poles belonging to the upper class and intelligentsia, such as priests and teachers.[6] The mission of the Einsatzgruppen was therefore the forceful depoliticisation of the Polish people and the elimination of the groups most clearly identified with the Polish national identity. As stated by Hitler in his Armenian quote, units were sent: "...with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need."[7] "Whatever we find in the shape of an upper class in Poland will be liquidated," Hitler had declared.[8]
guderian
Footballguy
I'm glad that this thread is discussing the Soviet side of events. I think that too many people don't understand the true scope of combat on the Eastern Front. 58% of Germany's manpower losses (KIAs and POWs) occurred on the Eastern Front with another 23% occurring in Germany and the vast majority of those were caused by the Russian army. There were 2.7 million Germans killed on the Eastern Front with another 1.2 million killed in Germany. In comparison only 244,000 Germans were killed on the Western Front in 1944. The remainder of the Western Front casualties occurred in Germany in 1945 and that data isn't broken out by eastern/western front.
Here is a great resource for information on the Axis:
http://www.axishistory.com/
Germany casualty data by theater.
Here is an interesting map showing losses by geography.
Russian Army as of D-Day
Link to stuff about the war on the Eastern Front.
Here is a great resource for information on the Axis:
http://www.axishistory.com/
Germany casualty data by theater.
Here is an interesting map showing losses by geography.
Russian Army as of D-Day
Link to stuff about the war on the Eastern Front.
Last edited by a moderator:
ODoyleRules
Footballguy
Good stuff. I was just at the Cabinet War Rooms in London yesterday.
Harry Manback
Footballguy
I still have trouble fathoming the true extent of these losses.
Not to take away from the Vietnam, Iraq or Afghan conflicts, but their total body counts combined would likely equal 1 bad day in this conflict.
Not to take away from the Vietnam, Iraq or Afghan conflicts, but their total body counts combined would likely equal 1 bad day in this conflict.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Einsatzgruppen (Special Actions Groups) role in Poland and western Europe was somewhat minor. Their really infamous activities came with the invasion of Russia in June, 1941.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
For any non-WWII experts like myself, FWIW Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast is in the middle of a 4 part segment entirely devoted to the Russia/Germany WWII front. Three of the four parts are already out so you could get them immediately, not sure when the 4th is due. Good stuff.
We haven't really gone in depth on what was happening between the Soviets, French, British and Poles. The Poles flat-out refused to allow Soviet troops into Poland. Stalin asked the British how many troops it would commit to the defense of Poland and was told they could send TWO divisions.Plus, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg had refused to allow the French to go through their countries to attack Germany from the west. So even if the French had the balls to do it, they would have had to have attacked the Seigfried line. It should be noted that the French didn't attack Germany even after war was declared.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Einsatzgruppen were not combat units so I would not consider them part of the command structure for the German Army in as much as it meant to the war effort. Hitler loved to pit his Generals against each other and had multiple levels of agencies or groups within the military, SS and Gestapo that would do the same or similar missions. It was a SOP of Hitler that continued and lead to the insane command structure of the German military effort against the Normandy invasion that contributed to the success of the Allies creating a western front.
Copeman
Footballguy
Some basic WWII info for the non-experts. Might help with the overall picture:
Timeline
September 1, 1939 - Germany invades Poland. This invasion begins what would be World War II.
June 10, 1940 - Italy joins the war on the side of Germany. Fighting spreads to Greece and northern Africa.
June 14, 1940 - German troops move into Paris.
July 1940 - May, 1941 - Germany and the United Kingdom fight an air war, with each side overestimating how many enemy planes it shoots down.
June 1941 - Germany invades the Soviet Union.
1941 - Already occupying Laos and Vietnam, Japan takes over the whole of Indochina.
December 7, 1941 - Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, hoping to destroy the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Japan also attacks the Clark and Iba airfields in the Philippines, destroying over half of the U.S. Army's aircraft there. On the same day, Japan invades Hong Kong, Guam, the Wake Islands, Singapore and British Malaya.
December 8, 1941 - U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt asks for, and Congress approves, a declaration of war against Japan.
December 11, 1941 - Germany and Italy declare war on the U.S. Germany, Japan and Italy form a coalition called the Axis. Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Croatia and Slovakia eventually join the Axis. The U.S., Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union form a coalition called the Allies -- the group fighting the Axis. Eventually, 50 nations join the Allies. By Christmas 1941, Japan has captured Thailand, Guam, Hong Kong and Wake Island.
1942 - The Allies stop the Axis advance in northern Africa and the Soviet Union.
February 1942 - Japan invades the Malay Peninsula. Singapore surrenders within a week.
June 4, 1942 - Battle of Midway. Japan's plan to invade the Hawaiian Islands, starting at Midway, is foiled when the U.S. cracks Japan's naval code. Japan attacks Midway, but the U.S. fights back with torpedoes and dive-bombers. Japan loses four aircraft carriers and more than 200 planes and pilots in what becomes the first clear victory for the U.S. over Japan.
August 1942 - Battle for Stalingrad begins as Germany pushes to take over the southern Russian city.
October 1942 - In the Battle of El Alamein, British troops force Axis troops to retreat to Tunisia.
July 10, 1943 - Allied forces arrive in Italy.
July 25, 1943 - The king of Italy fires Benito Mussolini, the Italian prime minister, who signed a treaty of friendship with Germany in 1936. Mussolini is arrested once he leaves the meeting.
February 2, 1943 - The last German troops in Stalingrad surrender, defeated in large part by the unusually cold Soviet winter. The defeat marks the halt of Germany's eastbound advance.
June 6, 1944 - D-Day. Allied forces land on the beaches of Normandy, gaining a place from which to funnel supplies and troops into Europe. Operation Overlord becomes the largest air, land and sea operation ever undertaken. The landing includes more than 5,000 ships, 11,000 airplanes, and more than 150,000 troops.
August 25, 1944 - American and Free French forces liberate Paris.
April 25, 1945 - Soviet troops surround Berlin.
April 30, 1945 - German leader Adolf Hitler commits suicide.
May 7, 1945 - Germany surrenders.
July 1945 - After President Truman learns of the first successful atomic bomb test, he tells the other Allied leaders about the test. The Allies then warn the Japanese that Japan will be destroyed if it does not surrender unconditionally. Japan continues fighting.
August 6, 1945 - The first atomic bomb used in warfare is dropped on the Japanese city of Hiroshima, killing between 70,000 and 100,000 people.
August 9, 1945 - After getting no response from the Japanese government following the Hiroshima bombing, a second atomic bomb is dropped on Nagasaki; 40,000 people are killed.
August 14-15, 1945 - Japan agrees to end the war.
September 2, 1945 - Japan officially surrenders.
Some of the causes of World War II
The Peace of Paris - The treaties worked out in Paris at the end of World War I satisfied few. Germany, Austria and the other countries on the losing side of the war were especially unhappy with the Paris agreement, which required them to give up arms and make reparations, or payments for compensation. Germany agreed to sign the Treaty of Versailles only after the victorious countries threatened to invade if Germany did not sign.
Economic Issues - World War I left many economies in shambles, in both victorious and non-victorious countries. Although the European economy stabilized by the 1920s, the Great Depression in the U.S. contributed to economic downfall in Europe. Communism and fascism gained strength in the wake of economic problems.
Nationalism - An extreme form of patriotism that grew in Europe became even stronger after World War I, especially for countries defeated in World War I.
Dictatorships - Political unrest and unfavorable economic conditions lead to the rise of dictatorships in countries such as Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union.
Failure of Appeasement - Czechoslovakia had become an independent nation after World War I, but by 1938, the country was surrounded by German territory. Hitler wanted to annex the Sudetenland, an area in western Czechoslovakia where many Germans lived. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain wanted to appease Hitler and agreed to the German leader's demands for the Sudetenland after Hitler promised he would not demand more territory. Hitler seized the rest of Czechoslovakia in March of 1939.
Fast Facts
The Lend-Lease Act was created to allow the U.S. to lend or lease weapons, equipment or raw materials to any nation fighting the Axis. Eventually, 38 nations received about $50 billion in aid. Most went to the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union.
The number of civilian casualties in World War II may never be known. Bombing raids, massacres, starvation and other war-related causes caused untold deaths.
Approximately 70 million people fought in the armed forces of the Axis and Allied nations.
The Soviet Union lost the most soldiers, more than seven million.
In 1948, the U.S. created the Marshall Plan to help rebuild war-torn Europe. Eventually, 18 nations received $13 billion in food, machinery and other goods.
U.S. Troop Statistics
16,112,566 - Number of U.S. troops that served in the conflict
671,846 - Number of U.S. wounded
U.S. Deaths: Battle: 291,557; Non-Battle: 113,842; Total In-Theatre: 405,399
link
Timeline
September 1, 1939 - Germany invades Poland. This invasion begins what would be World War II.
June 10, 1940 - Italy joins the war on the side of Germany. Fighting spreads to Greece and northern Africa.
June 14, 1940 - German troops move into Paris.
July 1940 - May, 1941 - Germany and the United Kingdom fight an air war, with each side overestimating how many enemy planes it shoots down.
June 1941 - Germany invades the Soviet Union.
1941 - Already occupying Laos and Vietnam, Japan takes over the whole of Indochina.
December 7, 1941 - Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, hoping to destroy the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Japan also attacks the Clark and Iba airfields in the Philippines, destroying over half of the U.S. Army's aircraft there. On the same day, Japan invades Hong Kong, Guam, the Wake Islands, Singapore and British Malaya.
December 8, 1941 - U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt asks for, and Congress approves, a declaration of war against Japan.
December 11, 1941 - Germany and Italy declare war on the U.S. Germany, Japan and Italy form a coalition called the Axis. Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Croatia and Slovakia eventually join the Axis. The U.S., Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union form a coalition called the Allies -- the group fighting the Axis. Eventually, 50 nations join the Allies. By Christmas 1941, Japan has captured Thailand, Guam, Hong Kong and Wake Island.
1942 - The Allies stop the Axis advance in northern Africa and the Soviet Union.
February 1942 - Japan invades the Malay Peninsula. Singapore surrenders within a week.
June 4, 1942 - Battle of Midway. Japan's plan to invade the Hawaiian Islands, starting at Midway, is foiled when the U.S. cracks Japan's naval code. Japan attacks Midway, but the U.S. fights back with torpedoes and dive-bombers. Japan loses four aircraft carriers and more than 200 planes and pilots in what becomes the first clear victory for the U.S. over Japan.
August 1942 - Battle for Stalingrad begins as Germany pushes to take over the southern Russian city.
October 1942 - In the Battle of El Alamein, British troops force Axis troops to retreat to Tunisia.
July 10, 1943 - Allied forces arrive in Italy.
July 25, 1943 - The king of Italy fires Benito Mussolini, the Italian prime minister, who signed a treaty of friendship with Germany in 1936. Mussolini is arrested once he leaves the meeting.
February 2, 1943 - The last German troops in Stalingrad surrender, defeated in large part by the unusually cold Soviet winter. The defeat marks the halt of Germany's eastbound advance.
June 6, 1944 - D-Day. Allied forces land on the beaches of Normandy, gaining a place from which to funnel supplies and troops into Europe. Operation Overlord becomes the largest air, land and sea operation ever undertaken. The landing includes more than 5,000 ships, 11,000 airplanes, and more than 150,000 troops.
August 25, 1944 - American and Free French forces liberate Paris.
April 25, 1945 - Soviet troops surround Berlin.
April 30, 1945 - German leader Adolf Hitler commits suicide.
May 7, 1945 - Germany surrenders.
July 1945 - After President Truman learns of the first successful atomic bomb test, he tells the other Allied leaders about the test. The Allies then warn the Japanese that Japan will be destroyed if it does not surrender unconditionally. Japan continues fighting.
August 6, 1945 - The first atomic bomb used in warfare is dropped on the Japanese city of Hiroshima, killing between 70,000 and 100,000 people.
August 9, 1945 - After getting no response from the Japanese government following the Hiroshima bombing, a second atomic bomb is dropped on Nagasaki; 40,000 people are killed.
August 14-15, 1945 - Japan agrees to end the war.
September 2, 1945 - Japan officially surrenders.
Some of the causes of World War II
The Peace of Paris - The treaties worked out in Paris at the end of World War I satisfied few. Germany, Austria and the other countries on the losing side of the war were especially unhappy with the Paris agreement, which required them to give up arms and make reparations, or payments for compensation. Germany agreed to sign the Treaty of Versailles only after the victorious countries threatened to invade if Germany did not sign.
Economic Issues - World War I left many economies in shambles, in both victorious and non-victorious countries. Although the European economy stabilized by the 1920s, the Great Depression in the U.S. contributed to economic downfall in Europe. Communism and fascism gained strength in the wake of economic problems.
Nationalism - An extreme form of patriotism that grew in Europe became even stronger after World War I, especially for countries defeated in World War I.
Dictatorships - Political unrest and unfavorable economic conditions lead to the rise of dictatorships in countries such as Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union.
Failure of Appeasement - Czechoslovakia had become an independent nation after World War I, but by 1938, the country was surrounded by German territory. Hitler wanted to annex the Sudetenland, an area in western Czechoslovakia where many Germans lived. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain wanted to appease Hitler and agreed to the German leader's demands for the Sudetenland after Hitler promised he would not demand more territory. Hitler seized the rest of Czechoslovakia in March of 1939.
Fast Facts
The Lend-Lease Act was created to allow the U.S. to lend or lease weapons, equipment or raw materials to any nation fighting the Axis. Eventually, 38 nations received about $50 billion in aid. Most went to the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union.
The number of civilian casualties in World War II may never be known. Bombing raids, massacres, starvation and other war-related causes caused untold deaths.
Approximately 70 million people fought in the armed forces of the Axis and Allied nations.
The Soviet Union lost the most soldiers, more than seven million.
In 1948, the U.S. created the Marshall Plan to help rebuild war-torn Europe. Eventually, 18 nations received $13 billion in food, machinery and other goods.
U.S. Troop Statistics
16,112,566 - Number of U.S. troops that served in the conflict
671,846 - Number of U.S. wounded
U.S. Deaths: Battle: 291,557; Non-Battle: 113,842; Total In-Theatre: 405,399
link
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Hence the "Phony War" period.We haven't really gone in depth on what was happening between the Soviets, French, British and Poles. The Poles flat-out refused to allow Soviet troops into Poland. Stalin asked the British how many troops it would commit to the defense of Poland and was told they could send TWO divisions.Plus, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg had refused to allow the French to go through their countries to attack Germany from the west. So even if the French had the balls to do it, they would have had to have attacked the Seigfried line. It should be noted that the French didn't attack Germany even after war was declared.
timschochet
Footballguy
The French Military in 1939
During the summer of 1939 the French celebrated the largest Bastille Day in their history. Thousands of well-trained, beautifully dressed soldiers marched through the streets of Paris. It was an awesome spectacle. According to popular opinion, the French had the finest army in all of Europe. How this came to be popular opinion is a great mystery, since the French had not won a single military victory since the time of Napoleon Bonaparte. Even their "triumphs" in World War I, such as the Marne and Verdun, were more a result of the failures of their opponents coupled with the bravery of the British and later the American doughboys.
The "brilliant" commander of the French army was General Maurice Gamelin, who wrote a book in 1936 in which he proclaimed himself "The World's Foremost Military Soldier". This despite the fact that he had never led a battle, and had risen to his current rank in peacetime through a mixture of groveling before Marshall Petain and blackmailing opponents in his way. Vain and cowardly, he was a hater of modern technology. He refused to have a telephone or telegraph at his headquarters, preferring messages hand carried ("If I installed a telephone", he said, "Somebody might call!" You can't argue with this logic.) He wrote that the soldier who is isolated from events has more time to think and consider what steps to be taken, and does not rush to judgment. He also wrote that tanks should be divided up among infantry for support purposes, and were useless on their own. Planes should stay in the back of combat situations and should only be used "once the battle is already decided." When France was invaded in May, 1940, Gamelin proceeded to carry out these ideas, to great success- for Germany, that is.
The French had lost a million men in the horrors of World War I. Their lands had been ravaged, and they had never fully recovered. The Third Republic was a constant battle between Left and Right. Government Cabinets might last a week or even a few hours before falling. There was no political stability between the wars. In this environment, the French military thinking became increasingly defensive. Andre Maginot, the Minister of Defense in the early 1930's, proposed a wall which would protect France from attack. Called the Maginot line, it was a series of forts along the eastern border which were connected by underground tunnels. It was a technological feat but it was too short. The French cabinets that followed Maginot did not want to spend the extra money to build it further north. It stopped at the Ardennes forest, which the French believed to be "inpenetrable." Also, it did not stretch to the border with Belgium. France was committed to the defense of Belgium in case of attack, so they thought it would be insulting to the Belgians to have the line extend that far.
(Regarding the Ardennes- if you choose to mock the French for believing it was inpenetrable, realize that 4 years AFTER the Germans invaded through the Ardennes, the American army command also believed it to be inpenatrable, at which point the Germans invaded again, which led to the Battle of the Bulge.)
And what of the French soldier? Our modern day stereotype is that he was often drunk, untidy, greatly demoralized and defeatist, eager to surrender. In fact, the French were generally brave and stalwart, as they would prove in the few instances when they were given the chance to fight. But their commanders were cowards. Neither Daladier nor Gamelin nor Bonnet, the foreign minister, really wanted to defend Poland. Reynaud did, but he was out of power at the time. The French were terrified that their cities would be bombed and destroyed; this was a reaction to some comments by a former British prime minister and a famous American pilot which I will get to shortly.
During the summer of 1939 the French celebrated the largest Bastille Day in their history. Thousands of well-trained, beautifully dressed soldiers marched through the streets of Paris. It was an awesome spectacle. According to popular opinion, the French had the finest army in all of Europe. How this came to be popular opinion is a great mystery, since the French had not won a single military victory since the time of Napoleon Bonaparte. Even their "triumphs" in World War I, such as the Marne and Verdun, were more a result of the failures of their opponents coupled with the bravery of the British and later the American doughboys.
The "brilliant" commander of the French army was General Maurice Gamelin, who wrote a book in 1936 in which he proclaimed himself "The World's Foremost Military Soldier". This despite the fact that he had never led a battle, and had risen to his current rank in peacetime through a mixture of groveling before Marshall Petain and blackmailing opponents in his way. Vain and cowardly, he was a hater of modern technology. He refused to have a telephone or telegraph at his headquarters, preferring messages hand carried ("If I installed a telephone", he said, "Somebody might call!" You can't argue with this logic.) He wrote that the soldier who is isolated from events has more time to think and consider what steps to be taken, and does not rush to judgment. He also wrote that tanks should be divided up among infantry for support purposes, and were useless on their own. Planes should stay in the back of combat situations and should only be used "once the battle is already decided." When France was invaded in May, 1940, Gamelin proceeded to carry out these ideas, to great success- for Germany, that is.
The French had lost a million men in the horrors of World War I. Their lands had been ravaged, and they had never fully recovered. The Third Republic was a constant battle between Left and Right. Government Cabinets might last a week or even a few hours before falling. There was no political stability between the wars. In this environment, the French military thinking became increasingly defensive. Andre Maginot, the Minister of Defense in the early 1930's, proposed a wall which would protect France from attack. Called the Maginot line, it was a series of forts along the eastern border which were connected by underground tunnels. It was a technological feat but it was too short. The French cabinets that followed Maginot did not want to spend the extra money to build it further north. It stopped at the Ardennes forest, which the French believed to be "inpenetrable." Also, it did not stretch to the border with Belgium. France was committed to the defense of Belgium in case of attack, so they thought it would be insulting to the Belgians to have the line extend that far.
(Regarding the Ardennes- if you choose to mock the French for believing it was inpenetrable, realize that 4 years AFTER the Germans invaded through the Ardennes, the American army command also believed it to be inpenatrable, at which point the Germans invaded again, which led to the Battle of the Bulge.)
And what of the French soldier? Our modern day stereotype is that he was often drunk, untidy, greatly demoralized and defeatist, eager to surrender. In fact, the French were generally brave and stalwart, as they would prove in the few instances when they were given the chance to fight. But their commanders were cowards. Neither Daladier nor Gamelin nor Bonnet, the foreign minister, really wanted to defend Poland. Reynaud did, but he was out of power at the time. The French were terrified that their cities would be bombed and destroyed; this was a reaction to some comments by a former British prime minister and a famous American pilot which I will get to shortly.
Even Churchill admitted that what Stalin did was pragmatic given the way France and Britain acted.Hence the "Phony War" period.We haven't really gone in depth on what was happening between the Soviets, French, British and Poles. The Poles flat-out refused to allow Soviet troops into Poland. Stalin asked the British how many troops it would commit to the defense of Poland and was told they could send TWO divisions.Plus, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg had refused to allow the French to go through their countries to attack Germany from the west. So even if the French had the balls to do it, they would have had to have attacked the Seigfried line. It should be noted that the French didn't attack Germany even after war was declared.
Redwes25
Footballguy
The biggest reason for the success of the Western front is the fact that Germany had over 200 hundred divisions committed to the Eastern front and only 50 in france and 20 in Italy. Just double the number of troops in France and Normandy invasion could have easily gone a different way.
timschochet
Footballguy
"The Bomber Will Always Get Through"
Before I get to the British, it's very important to realize this military thinking, which was so popular in the 1930's and influenced foreign policy. In 1935, Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin made a speech to the House of Commons where he stated that "The Bomber Will Always Get Through"- meaning, that once war started, there was no way to prevent the complete and utter destruction of cities. This viewpoint was strongly reinforced by American defeatist Charles Lindbergh, who wrote several articles asserting that there was no way to stop bombers, and that the Luftwaffe was "invincible".
It becomes much easier to understand British and French appeasement and actions in the first several months of the war if we consider that they believed the alternative was the equivalent of a nuclear holocaust.
One person who strongly disagreed was British Minister for Air Sir Hugh Dowding. Dowding believed that bombers were nowhere near as efficient as were represented. The later German failure to achieve a surrender by Warsaw through a continual bombardment from the air only confirmed Dowding's suspicions. He was a proponent of radar, and thought that the British Royal Air Force was more than a match for the Luftwaffe. But in August of 1939, no one in the British or French governments agreed with him.
Before I get to the British, it's very important to realize this military thinking, which was so popular in the 1930's and influenced foreign policy. In 1935, Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin made a speech to the House of Commons where he stated that "The Bomber Will Always Get Through"- meaning, that once war started, there was no way to prevent the complete and utter destruction of cities. This viewpoint was strongly reinforced by American defeatist Charles Lindbergh, who wrote several articles asserting that there was no way to stop bombers, and that the Luftwaffe was "invincible".
It becomes much easier to understand British and French appeasement and actions in the first several months of the war if we consider that they believed the alternative was the equivalent of a nuclear holocaust.
One person who strongly disagreed was British Minister for Air Sir Hugh Dowding. Dowding believed that bombers were nowhere near as efficient as were represented. The later German failure to achieve a surrender by Warsaw through a continual bombardment from the air only confirmed Dowding's suspicions. He was a proponent of radar, and thought that the British Royal Air Force was more than a match for the Luftwaffe. But in August of 1939, no one in the British or French governments agreed with him.
Poland was sort of a warm-up period for them while they got their policies and procedures worked out. However, their role wasn't "minor" if you were a Polish parish priest or a Polish army officer in September 1939. IIRC, Karol Józef Wojtyła, barely escaped during this time.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorry Christo, this is not true. In The Gathering Storm, Churchill is sharply critical of Stalin over the Nazi-Soviet Pact. He calls it over and over a terrible mistake, which led to the invasion of Russia two years later. You can disagree with this view all you want, but Churchill is definitely on my side in this one.
timschochet
Footballguy
You're right; I shouldn't have used that word.
Leviathan
Footballguy
Great thread!Ok, on my mother's side, I have two uncles who served during the war. One was a dentist in the Navy. He was the dentist aboard the U.S.S. Arizona. Wound up shipping out just a few months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. He survived the war and passed away at a ripe old age.timschochet said:
Another uncle on my mother's side was in the USMC and participated in the invasions of Tarawa and Saipan. He rarely spoke about what he witnessed, but when he did, the stories were truly horrifying. He survived the war and just recently passed away.
On my father's side, my grandfather served in the Red Army. He was captured during Operation Barbarossa and wound up in a POW camp for the remainder of the war. That in itself is a miracle as the Germans weren't too kind to the Russians. Before he was captured, he was a tank driver and also served in the campaign against Finland.
Through marriage, my grandmother had a cousin who was in the Waffen SS. We don't know what happened to him.
Strange mix, eh?
If Hitler had just released the divisions at Calais things might have been different.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Even with the resources given to the western front, the Germans could have potentially have been able to repel the Normandy invasion. Even as is, the Normandy invasion was very fragile in its success. A number of things contributed to the success of Normandy. Such things as Operation Fortitude were vital to the success of the invasion of Normandy. Another, as I pointed out earlier, was the inefficient and ineffective command structure of German forces on the Western front which lead to the crucial withholding of the Panzer division reserves to counter attack. These are only a small example of the numerous things that added up to the history we know but you can not discount the impact that the German dysfunctional command structure contributed to the success of the Normandy invasion and thus the Western Front.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Every war is filled with "what ifs".Why did Hitler stop the encirclement at Dunkirk, allowing about 300,000 troops to escape back to Britain?
Similar threads
