What is the NFL rule here? (1 Viewer)

[bryhamm]

Wanting to get people's thoughts on the NFL rules here.

 

[Giants4Life]

Umm, question one is clearly incomplete. Its not even a debate.

Question two is down by contact.

These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

 

[dgreen]

These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

 

[Max Power]

Where are you going with this?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Where are you going with this?

to the appeals committee

 

[Giants4Life]

It's like asking: If its first and 10, and the offense gains 11 yards, and there are no penalties on the play. What down is it next?

 

[greenline]

Thank God I got it right!

 

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

It's like asking: If its first and 10, and the offense gains 11 yards, and there are no penalties on the play. What down is it next?

It depends upon who is doing the chains. If it is the crew from the SD/IND game then it is 2nd and short.

 

[johnny_q]

Where are you going with this?

Refer to the Cleveland/Arizona game thread. The Braylon Edwards TD is the source of this poll.

 

[Max Power]

Where are you going with this?

Refer to the Cleveland/Arizona game thread. The Braylon Edwards TD is the source of this poll.

id rather just get a quick summary

 

[Statler & Waldorf]

I'm the smartest man alive!

 

[greenline]

If the moon was made of cheese...

Would you eat it?

 

[Mario Kart]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

 

[dgreen]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

The scenario presented happens all the time and every time the receiver is considered down.

 

[DVDA]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

Is that the NFL's official explanation? If this is true then the refs didn't blow the call on Edward's TD. They still blew the Winslow TD at the end of the game though.

 

[Mario Kart]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

The scenario presented happens all the time and every time the receiver is considered down.

The given scenario does not happen all the time.

 

[Mario Kart]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

Is that the NFL's official explanation? If this is true then the refs didn't blow the call on Edward's TD. They still blew the Winslow TD at the end of the game though.

Don't know if this would be the official word. Just my interpretation of the NFL rules that I know and the given scenario.Simply put, a player has not made a catch until he brings the ball into possession and makes a football move. Any contact before "making a football move" does not contribute to any kind of tackle. Therefore, once a receiver makes a football move, thus completing the catch, contact after that then contributes to a tackle. It seems simple to me but this poll was setup to bash the referees, or so it seems, but the refs made the right call.

 

[Bossman]

I've got one.

Team A scores more points than Team B. Who is the winner.

 

[moondawg]

Jumps in air.

Catches ball.

Hit by defender while in the air while in possesion of the ball.

Hits the ground.

Down by contact..

 

[bryhamm]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

Is that the NFL's official explanation? If this is true then the refs didn't blow the call on Edward's TD. They still blew the Winslow TD at the end of the game though.

Don't know if this would be the official word. Just my interpretation of the NFL rules that I know and the given scenario.Simply put, a player has not made a catch until he brings the ball into possession and makes a football move. Any contact before "making a football move" does not contribute to any kind of tackle. Therefore, once a receiver makes a football move, thus completing the catch, contact after that then contributes to a tackle. It seems simple to me but this poll was setup to bash the referees, or so it seems, but the refs made the right call.

I honestly do not know the ruling here. I always assumed down by contact, but the discussion on the AZ game thread has me rethinking and I thought I would post it here to get people's opinion.

 

[dgreen]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

Is that the NFL's official explanation? If this is true then the refs didn't blow the call on Edward's TD. They still blew the Winslow TD at the end of the game though.

Don't know if this would be the official word. Just my interpretation of the NFL rules that I know and the given scenario.Simply put, a player has not made a catch until he brings the ball into possession and makes a football move. Any contact before "making a football move" does not contribute to any kind of tackle. Therefore, once a receiver makes a football move, thus completing the catch, contact after that then contributes to a tackle. It seems simple to me but this poll was setup to bash the referees, or so it seems, but the refs made the right call.

You don't have to make a football move anymore.

 

[encaitar]

If the moon was made of cheese...Would you eat it?

(Harry Carey voice)We all know the moon isn't made of cheese, but what if it were made of BBQ spareribs? Would you eat it then? I know I would, heck I'd have seconds. Then polish it off with a tall, cool, Budweiser....

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

Is that the NFL's official explanation? If this is true then the refs didn't blow the call on Edward's TD. They still blew the Winslow TD at the end of the game though.

Don't know if this would be the official word. Just my interpretation of the NFL rules that I know and the given scenario.Simply put, a player has not made a catch until he brings the ball into possession and makes a football move. Any contact before "making a football move" does not contribute to any kind of tackle. Therefore, once a receiver makes a football move, thus completing the catch, contact after that then contributes to a tackle. It seems simple to me but this poll was setup to bash the referees, or so it seems, but the refs made the right call.

are you saying it's because they are in the air?

 

[Koya]

Does this just again come down to the question of WHEN a player has possession, and the fact that before there is no possession, you can not force someone "down by contact" because there is nothing to put down by that contact?

Blown call on Edwards unless the above is correct... though Ill gladly take the TD and points.

 

[bryhamm]

A follow up to question 2 -- if the receiver bobbles the ball, but maintains control upon landing, can he then get up and run?

 

[dgreen]

Okay, I just watched the play.

Here's the issue, IMO. The contact by the defender is not what caused Edwards to go to the ground. (The word "hit" in the poll choice had me thinking the player was, well, hit as "hit" is usually used in football.)

Did the refs announce a reason for their call?

 

[wadegarrett]

Umm, question one is clearly incomplete. Its not even a debate. Question two is down by contact.These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

 

[bryhamm]

Okay, I just watched the play.Here's the issue, IMO. The contact by the defender is not what caused Edwards to go to the ground. (The word "hit" in the poll choice had me thinking the player was, well, hit as "hit" is usually used in football.)Did the refs announce a reason for their call?

I am not specifically asking about the play on BE. That was simply what inspired this thread. My questions are if there is clear contact by the defender when the receiver goes into the air to make a catch.

 

[bryhamm]

Umm, question one is clearly incomplete. Its not even a debate. Question two is down by contact.These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

Yet you took the time to reply and this has been debated.

 

[bryhamm]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, drops the ball before he lands. What is your call?

Catch and a fumble [ 1 ] ** [0.95%]

Incomplete pass [ 104 ] ** [99.05%]

Interested in hearing from the 1 as this question was thrown in to try and help determine when possession is established. Seems like most here are not debating this question but are questioning/debating the 2nd question.

 

[dgreen]

Okay, I just watched the play.Here's the issue, IMO. The contact by the defender is not what caused Edwards to go to the ground. (The word "hit" in the poll choice had me thinking the player was, well, hit as "hit" is usually used in football.)Did the refs announce a reason for their call?

I am not specifically asking about the play on BE. That was simply what inspired this thread. My questions are if there is clear contact by the defender when the receiver goes into the air to make a catch.

I answered that in my interpretation of the BE play.I believe the contact has to be a reason the player went to the ground. If a RB runs through a hole and a DE touches the top of the RB's helmet then a step later he trips over his own feet, I don't think he'd be ruled down because the tap on the helmet didn't cause the fall.I think if the DB had made stronger contact with BE, he'd be called down. As I mentioned, plays matching your scenario happen all the time. In almost every game, a receiver is hit hard while in the air and that hit sends him to the ground. He's down by contact 100 times out of 100 on plays like that.There's a difference between being hit and being touched prior to the knee hitting the ground.

 

[bryhamm]

Okay, I just watched the play.

Here's the issue, IMO. The contact by the defender is not what caused Edwards to go to the ground. (The word "hit" in the poll choice had me thinking the player was, well, hit as "hit" is usually used in football.)

Did the refs announce a reason for their call?

I am not specifically asking about the play on BE. That was simply what inspired this thread. My questions are if there is clear contact by the defender when the receiver goes into the air to make a catch.

I answered that in my interpretation of the BE play.I believe the contact has to be a reason the player went to the ground. If a RB runs through a hole and a DE touches the top of the RB's helmet then a step later he trips over his own feet, I don't think he'd be ruled down because the tap on the helmet didn't cause the fall.

I think if the DB had made stronger contact with BE, he'd be called down. As I mentioned, plays matching your scenario happen all the time. In almost every game, a receiver is hit hard while in the air and that hit sends him to the ground. He's down by contact 100 times out of 100 on plays like that.

There's a difference between being hit and being touched prior to the knee hitting the ground.

Does this really happen that often? Let's be clear about what I am asking ... specifically when a receiver gets hit in the air and then is not touched again after he hits the ground. Yes receivers get hit in the air all the time, but usually they are touched again on the ground.

 

[dgreen]

Okay, I just watched the play.

Here's the issue, IMO. The contact by the defender is not what caused Edwards to go to the ground. (The word "hit" in the poll choice had me thinking the player was, well, hit as "hit" is usually used in football.)

Did the refs announce a reason for their call?

I am not specifically asking about the play on BE. That was simply what inspired this thread. My questions are if there is clear contact by the defender when the receiver goes into the air to make a catch.

I answered that in my interpretation of the BE play.I believe the contact has to be a reason the player went to the ground. If a RB runs through a hole and a DE touches the top of the RB's helmet then a step later he trips over his own feet, I don't think he'd be ruled down because the tap on the helmet didn't cause the fall.

I think if the DB had made stronger contact with BE, he'd be called down. As I mentioned, plays matching your scenario happen all the time. In almost every game, a receiver is hit hard while in the air and that hit sends him to the ground. He's down by contact 100 times out of 100 on plays like that.

There's a difference between being hit and being touched prior to the knee hitting the ground.

Does this really happen that often? Let's be clear about what I am asking ... specifically when a receiver gets hit in the air and then is not touched again after he hits the ground. Yes receivers get hit in the air all the time, but usually they are touched again on the ground.

I'm pretty sure receivers get hit in the air all the time and they are down when they hit the ground. I could easily be wrong though.

 

[daveR]

The refs blew a lot of calls that game. The players were no better. Edwards was down. Winslow was forced out, but they lacked the balls to call it. Not reviewable BTW (the force out ruling).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

[W]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1), i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any direction.

On number two, he's down. He's a "runner" when he catches the ball in the air even though the pass isn't complete yet (because he hasn't yet hit the ground while maintaining possession). Since the runner is contacted by a defensive player and then hits the ground, he's down.

 

[bryhamm]

[W]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1), i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any direction.

On number two, he's down. He's a "runner" when he catches the ball in the air even though the pass isn't complete yet (because he hasn't yet hit the ground while maintaining possession). Since the runner is contacted by a defensive player and then hits the ground, he's down.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but couldn't someone use the argument that he is not a "runner" since possession has not been established yet?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

[W]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1), i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any direction.

On number two, he's down. He's a "runner" when he catches the ball in the air even though the pass isn't complete yet (because he hasn't yet hit the ground while maintaining possession). Since the runner is contacted by a defensive player and then hits the ground, he's down.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but couldn't someone use the argument that he is not a "runner" since possession has not been established yet?

"Possession" isn't in the definition section. But I believe "possession" includes "holding the ball" based on the above. Also, when a player catches the ball but then juggles it while hitting the ground, the explanation is that he didn't maintain possession long enough -- which implies that he did have possession when the catch was made. (You can't maintain something that you didn't have to begin with.)So I think someone who catches the ball has possession of it, even if he hasn't hit the ground yet (and thus made a reception).

 

[Magnus_CA]

Umm, question one is clearly incomplete. Its not even a debate. Question two is down by contact.These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Also . . . I used to wonder where this "football move" stuff came from that the TV announcers would talk about. The first time I heard the phrase it was from Theisman, but then other people started saying it as well.

I had the 2002 version of the NFL Rules, and the phrase never appeared anywhere in there. I was told that it was a new addition to the rules within the last few years.

But I have the 2007 rules now in PDF form, so I can do a text search. The phrase "football move" does not appear anywhere in the rules.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

I didn't think that the video evidence was "conclusive" that the defender actually touched Edwards before he sprung up and took off. Admittedly, I just saw the highlights and didn't view multiple anlged replays.

 

[bryhamm]

[W]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1), i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any direction.

On number two, he's down. He's a "runner" when he catches the ball in the air even though the pass isn't complete yet (because he hasn't yet hit the ground while maintaining possession). Since the runner is contacted by a defensive player and then hits the ground, he's down.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but couldn't someone use the argument that he is not a "runner" since possession has not been established yet?

"Possession" isn't in the definition section. But I believe "possession" includes "holding the ball" based on the above. Also, when a player catches the ball but then juggles it while hitting the ground, the explanation is that he didn't maintain possession long enough -- which implies that he did have possession when the catch was made. (You can't maintain something that you didn't have to begin with.)So I think someone who catches the ball has possession of it, even if he hasn't hit the ground yet (and thus made a reception).

Does make some sense then. If you jump in the air and catch a ball, you have established "possession". But in order to complete a catch you must come down with control (and make a football move?) and maintain that control if you go to the ground untouched. Thus, if you drop it due to a defender hitting you while you are in the air, you have not fumbled because even though you had possession, it was never a completion, right?

 

[Sopranos]

It's like asking: If its first and 10, and the offense gains 11 yards, and there are no penalties on the play. What down is it next?

It depends upon who is doing the chains. If it is the crew from the SD/IND game then it is 2nd and short.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

[W]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet' date=' ball shall be declared dead immediately.[/quote']

The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1)' date=' i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any direction.[/quote']On number two, he's down. He's a "runner" when he catches the ball in the air even though the pass isn't complete yet (because he hasn't yet hit the ground while maintaining possession). Since the runner is contacted by a defensive player and then hits the ground, he's down.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but couldn't someone use the argument that he is not a "runner" since possession has not been established yet?

"Possession" isn't in the definition section. But I believe "possession" includes "holding the ball" based on the above. Also, when a player catches the ball but then juggles it while hitting the ground, the explanation is that he didn't maintain possession long enough -- which implies that he did have possession when the catch was made. (You can't maintain something that you didn't have to begin with.)

So I think someone who catches the ball has possession of it, even if he hasn't hit the ground yet (and thus made a reception).

Does make some sense then. If you jump in the air and catch a ball, you have established "possession". But in order to complete a catch you must come down with control (and make a football move?) and maintain that control if you go to the ground untouched. Thus, if you drop it due to a defender hitting you while you are in the air, you have not fumbled because even though you had possession, it was never a completion, right?

That is my understanding.

 

[3nOut]

My take is that this is an issue of control. If a player "seemingly" catches a ball in the air and loses it before he hits the ground, control has not been established. If he catches it and is hit but maintains control of the ball, he should be down by contact. The hit made him hit the ground, ending the play and confirming posession an control. The order of events is irrelevant.

 

[DropKick]

Umm, question one is clearly incomplete. Its not even a debate. Question two is down by contact.These were the two worst questions I have ever read.

Other than question 8 on the Wonderlic, I agree.

 

[daveR]

Also . . . I used to wonder where this "football move" stuff came from that the TV announcers would talk about. The first time I heard the phrase it was from Theisman, but then other people started saying it as well.

I had the 2002 version of the NFL Rules, and the phrase never appeared anywhere in there. I was told that it was a new addition to the rules within the last few years.

But I have the 2007 rules now in PDF form, so I can do a text search. The phrase "football move" does not appear anywhere in the rules.

Maurile, the "football move" portion of the rules used to apply to the question of whether the play was an incompletion or a fumble. It has been removed. You might find it in an old rules book under "fumbles". At any rate, what it essentailly said was that you had to do something after touching two feet. If you were separated from the ball beforehand, it was an incompletion.

In the Browns game, Edwards went up for the ball, caught it, was brushed on the left leg by a defender, fell to the ground, got up, was touched by another defender, continued to the endzone.

 

[Two Deep]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

What kind of football move does he have to make if he is in the endzone? I can garauntee if a player catches a ball in the air falls to his back maintains possession and never moves again it will be called a touchdown. The football move thing is BS. A receiver just has to maintain possession.

 

[yellowdog]

Player X jumps in the air, clearly catches a pass, is hit by a defender, then lands on the ground laying down (with the ball). What is your call?

With the given facts, player X has not caught the ball until he lands and makes a football move. If he lands on his back but was touched by the defender while in the air Player X cannot be considered "down by contact" until he lands and makes a football move. If Player X lands, makes a football move by rolling over or something else while in possession of the ball then he will be down by contact if/when he is touched while on the ground. But, in the painted scenario, the player can get up and run after landing without being considered down by contact as the contact happened before complete completion of the ball.

This is no longer considered. Two feet down is a catch.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I've got one.Team A scores more points than Team B. Who is the winner.

Team B on Draft Day?

 

[Mungo Burrows]

If the moon was made of cheese...Would you eat it?

Is it Wensleydale???