War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[SoBeDad]

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Social media is also exposing atrocities committed by Hamas. There will still be some deniers, but I think social media is a net benefit in this situation.

 

[Todem]

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Social media is also exposing atrocities committed by Hamas. There will still be some deniers, but I think social media is a net benefit in this situation.

It definitely has it’s uses for good. But we definitely have a “Social Dilemma” and it’s getting worse and worse and worse.

I liked life a lot more before the smart phones came along.

 

[Blick]

A link was posted that 50% polled in Gaza wanted to end violence and accept the two state solution so at a minimum it seems like half do not support what was done last weekend.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to speculate that others would not support killing and kidnapping of civilians.

What that number could be who knows but hopefully these are the people that will somehow get out with the chance they are being given.

For real resolution to happen the people would need to come together and take down the extremist groups......but how? It's similar to Mexico where the cartels control everything. They are very motivated to maintain power, and will use whatever means necessary. The fear of dying is powerful to the average, normal person. I really feel for the the innocent, good folks over there. And I'm grateful I was not born into it

The only real option they have is to migrate south just as Israel has asked knowing full well what kind of awful, danagerous conditions they will find there.

Once Hamas has been eliminated, and I fully believe they will be, they can restart without them. I know, easy for me to say.

 

[parasaurolophus]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

 

[FairWarning]

A link was posted that 50% polled in Gaza wanted to end violence and accept the two state solution so at a minimum it seems like half do not support what was done last weekend.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to speculate that others would not support killing and kidnapping of civilians.

What that number could be who knows but hopefully these are the people that will somehow get out with the chance they are being given.

For real resolution to happen the people would need to come together and take down the extremist groups......but how? It's similar to Mexico where the cartels control everything. They are very motivated to maintain power, and will use whatever means necessary. The fear of dying is powerful to the average, normal person. I really feel for the the innocent, good folks over there. And I'm grateful I was not born into it

The only real option they have is to migrate south just as Israel has asked knowing full well what kind of awful, danagerous conditions they will find there.

Once Hamas has been eliminated, and I fully believe they will be, they can restart with them. I know, easy for me to say.

kind of like street gangs, another terrorist group will step in.

 

[unckeyherb]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

As it was when the Palestinian people voted Hamas into the majority. Again, there are obviously innocent people that want no violence to come to anyone, but the idea that Hamas is some rogue element within Gaza that represents a minority opinion is nuts. Its should also be noted that within their parliament are also minority political groups like Palestinian Liberation Front and the PFLP which are both designated terrorist organizations.

 

[parasaurolophus]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

As it was when the Palestinian people voted Hamas into the majority. Again, there are obviously innocent people that want no violence to come to anyone, but the idea that Hamas is some rogue element within Gaza that represents a minority opinion is nuts. Its should also be noted that within their parliament are also minority political groups like Palestinian Liberation Front and the PFLP which are both designated terrorist organizations.

All you need to do is watch the videos where they drive through towns parading the victims from the music festival. People running after the trucks like it is Patrick mahomes, Taylor Swift, and Santa claus in there.

 

[Psychopav]

This might go over like a lead balloon, and I'm not trying to be proactive, but the OT reading in today's Roman Catholic masses throughout the world is sobering, and chilling. These things are set way in advance in case anyone was wondering (that's actually an understatement):

Reading 1 Jl 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of ****tim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not le[/quote[ave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.

 

[dgreen]

This might go over like a lead balloon, and I'm not trying to be proactive, but the OT reading in today's Roman Catholic masses throughout the world is sobering, and chilling. These things are set way in advance in case anyone was wondering (that's actually an understatement):

Reading 1 Jl 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of ****tim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not le[/quote[ave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.

What’s 1 Jl?

 

[Sand]

A link was posted that 50% polled in Gaza wanted to end violence and accept the two state solution so at a minimum it seems like half do not support what was done last weekend.

A two state solution was offered. It was rejected by the Palestinians. Given how asymmetric warfare can be now I doubt that will ever be back on the table. Too easy to get and use rockets that will reach Tel Aviv.

 

[Psychopav]

This might go over like a lead balloon, and I'm not trying to be proactive, but the OT reading in today's Roman Catholic masses throughout the world is sobering, and chilling. These things are set way in advance in case anyone was wondering (that's actually an understatement):

Reading 1 Jl 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of ****tim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not le[/quote[ave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.

What’s 1 Jl?

Reading 1, from the book of the prophet Joel.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

I'm an israel supporter, but that is ridiculous.

where are they supposed to go? where will they get food/water/shelter at said location?

sounds like they backed off

Their countrymen in Egypt should be taking in women and children at a minimum and allowing access to Red Cross and Humanitarian workers to help aid the hungry and wounded.

But they have a nice shiny wall up and at this point refuse to allow refuge for them to Sinai…which BTW was donated to Egypt by Israel in the name of peace.

It’s a farce.

i don't blame Egypt for closing the border considering hamas and muslim brotherhood connections.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

There is a reason Egypt wants no part of mass immigration.
President Sisi of Egypt has no interest in having hundreds of thousands of Gazans on Egyptian soil. They are a security problem, an economic challenge, and Egypt is reeling economically right now.

it's not just that. hamas is tied to muslim brotherhood.

 

[dgreen]

This might go over like a lead balloon, and I'm not trying to be proactive, but the OT reading in today's Roman Catholic masses throughout the world is sobering, and chilling. These things are set way in advance in case anyone was wondering (that's actually an understatement):

Reading 1 Jl 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of ****tim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not le[/quote[ave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.

What’s 1 Jl?

Reading 1, from the book of the prophet Joel.

Thanks. Then what’s 4:12-21? Joel has 3 chapters.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

They are imploring them (via the UN) to go to south Palestine, not Egypt. I don't know that that is much better, but I would take it to mean the military operations will be focused on northern Palestine (see link I posted upthread). That seems to be, according to the "maps" available online where the majority of the known secret tunnels are, so one could surmise that is where the military operations might be more heavily based.

I'm aware.

the reality is that israel is going to go where hamas is. they have to. this changed the narrative and they will not allow it to survive. hamas is going to use the Palestinians as a shield. this is going to be long, bloody, and a lot of civilians are going to die.

israel won't care. i expect US and Europe to side for a bit, but how long???

question is if iran/Hezbollah attack

 

[kutta]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

They are imploring them (via the UN) to go to south Palestine, not Egypt. I don't know that that is much better, but I would take it to mean the military operations will be focused on northern Palestine (see link I posted upthread). That seems to be, according to the "maps" available online where the majority of the known secret tunnels are, so one could surmise that is where the military operations might be more heavily based.

These tunnels that Israeli forces are about to go down into in Gaza City, I did see some reports on what they are in for, this is going to be painstakingly slowwwwwwwww

Think of the tunnels in Vietnam and these are much more elaborate and it will be likely loaded with all kinds of booby traps and the like.
I think some folks are misinformed that Israel is just going to line the tanks up and mow over the area, that's not at all what the Ground Operation is and that's what i prefer they call, a ground operation vs an Attack on Gaza which to me sounds like whoever is saying it doesn't feel Israel should be entering Gaza City

Even the term retaliation bothers me when i see it pop on US news feeds. This is a very dangerous and much needed operation to funnel them out and it's going to take a long time.
There will be Israeli soldiers that will be taken hostage, you can be sure of it.

Hamas is really good with propaganda and look no further than all these demonstrations happening right here in the United States with folks waving Palestinian flags
I hope they get all these protestors on video, I've heard CEOs of American companies already say they will not tolerate their employees engaging in these activities
Some of these folks might want to consider future employment in America

Back to these Hamas tunnels, you can't just toss a grenade them, you might even have to use knives and the like down there to take some of them out because you don't want to give away your location by blasting bullets everywhere, think about it.

The IDF uses our underground radios in those tunnels for comms.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

I'd like to actually agree with Tim on some of this and he's right that the majority of Palestinians do not have jobs or work because they are given the basics by Hamas
Where does Hamas get all these resources to feed 2 Million people?

All roads lead to Iran, there is just no getting around it. They give somewhere in the neighborhood of $700m-$1B to Hamas every year and that's just what the US can track, there's likely more in other gifts and weapons.

Quatar gives $millions of humanitarian aid to the people in the Gaza strip.

us, Germany, and others gave money to hamas. israel knew this and actually encouraged it with the hope it would help stabilize things. obviously that was incorrect

 

[Orange&Blue]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

there hasn't been an election since 2006.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Social media is also exposing atrocities committed by Hamas. There will still be some deniers, but I think social media is a net benefit in this situation.

***i don't understand the love of hamas specifically BLM and DSA or apparently by some of our universities.*** edited

they stand against so many things that they consider foundational truths

women's rights
religious freedom
free speech
fair elections
etc

yet you have these "intellectuals" at these universities throwing their full support at them and condemning Israel.

Look, i get it. Israel has done a lot of things i disagree with (settlers for example), but i also haven't been in any situation like them living in constant threat. There were over 500 attempted suicide attacks during the second intifadah. Of course israel built a wall and closed off access. Hell, we are trying to build a wall with Mexico and I'm not aware of any suicide attacks there.

But that doesn't justify let alone blame israel for these hamas attacks. this won't be liked, but the statement "well, the girl was raped because of her clothes" is akin to this.

You can be sympathetic when Israel starts responding and Palestinians start dying. But to not IMMEDIATELY come out and condemn is cowardice and evil.

And if you, or your representative, supported DSR and were not shocked and horrified by their response then you are supporting murder/evil.

sorry for the rant. not directed at you SobeDad.

 

[thecatch]

So it’s war with Iran then?

 

[Orange&Blue]

So it’s war with Iran then?

oof

guess this is how ww3 starts

 

[unckeyherb]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

there hasn't been an election since 2006.

Sure, but when there was, they voted for the party whose charter’s stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That wasn’t some added policy goal they snuck in later.

 

[Orange&Blue]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

there hasn't been an election since 2006.

Sure, but when there was, they voted for the party whose charter’s stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That wasn’t some added policy goal they snuck in later.

i don't disagree

 

[Psychopav]

This might go over like a lead balloon, and I'm not trying to be proactive, but the OT reading in today's Roman Catholic masses throughout the world is sobering, and chilling. These things are set way in advance in case anyone was wondering (that's actually an understatement):

Reading 1 Jl 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of ****tim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not le[/quote[ave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.

What’s 1 Jl?

Reading 1, from the book of the prophet Joel.

Thanks. Then what’s 4:12-21? Joel has 3 chapters.

Appears to be different divisions based on the version of the Bible used. Some have 3 others 4.

The Catholic bible (NAB) uses the Hebrew division it seems.

Link

The Book of Joel's division into chapters and verses differs widely between editions of the Bible; some editions have three chapters, others four.[13] Translations with four chapters include the Jewish Publication Society's version of the Hebrew Bible (1917),[14] the Jerusalem Bible (1966), New American Bible (Revised Edition, 1970), Complete Jewish Bible (1998), and Tree of Life Version (2015).[15]

In the 1611 King James Bible, the Book of Joel is formed by three chapters: the second one has 32 verses, and it is equivalent to the union of the chapter 2 (with 26 verses) and chapter 3 (with 5 verses) of other editions of the Bible.[16]

The differences of the divisions are as follows:[17]

English/GreekHebrew
Joel 1Joel 1
Joel 2:1–27Joel 2
Joel 2:28–32Joel 3
Joel 3Joel 4

 

[Chemical X]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

there hasn't been an election since 2006.

Sure, but when there was, they voted for the party whose charter’s stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That wasn’t some added policy goal they snuck in later.

i am no eggspurt here and i hate to get involved, but gaza and west bank had the vote and chose by 46% a terrorist organization to lead. this was after israel bailed out back in like 2006. sometimes you make your bed, you lie in it. unlike the U.S., i think their vote was popular based, not like this idiotic electoral college here that negates individual votes. so, they can’t blame that. i am fascinated that no one cares that egypt won’t let these people in and hasn’t cared for 65 years. i’m sure most would go to there. like i said, sometimes it isn’t fair, but you get stuck with your government after voting, including consequences of actions.

 

[Orange&Blue]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

there hasn't been an election since 2006.

Sure, but when there was, they voted for the party whose charter’s stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That wasn’t some added policy goal they snuck in later.

i am no eggspurt here and i hate to get involved, but gaza and west bank had the vote and chose by 46% a terrorist organization to lead. this was after israel bailed out back in like 2006. sometimes you make your bed, you lie in it. unlike the U.S., i think their vote was popular based, not like this idiotic electoral college here that negates individual votes. so, they can’t blame that. i am fascinated that no one cares that egypt won’t let these people in and hasn’t cared for 65 years. i’m sure most would go to there. like i said, sometimes it isn’t fair, but you get stuck with your government after voting, including consequences of actions.

because nobody knows the history of hamas/muslim brotherhood and Egypt.

 

[The Duff Man]

Here is what Wiki says about the election.

Wiki Page

“Another exit poll, conducted by Birzeit University, largely viewed as the most authoritative estimation, had Fatah with 46.4% of the vote and Hamas with 39.5%”

“Leaders from both Hamas and Fatah, however, announced on Thursday morning that Hamas was expected to win a majority.”

“An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%”

“Hamas has come under increasing pressure to renounce its goal of eliminating Israel, but Hamas leaders have refused.”

“Post-election polls indicated that Hamas' victory was due largely to Palestinians' desire to end corruption in government rather than support for the organization's political platform.”

 

[Orange&Blue]

Here is what Wiki says about the election.

Wiki Page

“Another exit poll, conducted by Birzeit University, largely viewed as the most authoritative estimation, had Fatah with 46.4% of the vote and Hamas with 39.5%”

“Leaders from both Hamas and Fatah, however, announced on Thursday morning that Hamas was expected to win a majority.”

“An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%”

“Hamas has come under increasing pressure to renounce its goal of eliminating Israel, but Hamas leaders have refused.”

“Post-election polls indicated that Hamas' victory was due largely to Palestinians' desire to end corruption in government rather than support for the organization's political platform.”

and then no elections since. no corruption at all.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

I would have no problem pointing you to actual flesh and blood people in my personal professional orbit who are openly pro-Hamas. Gaslighting doesn't work when people can see this with their own two eyes.

 

[Orange&Blue]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

i guess a bit.

But some of their strongest supporters are clearly pro-hamas. Examples being the previously mentioned DSA and BLM. So, i may be generalizing a bit but when you collaborate with certain factions...

 

[Courtjester]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

i guess a bit.

But some of their strongest supporters are clearly pro-hamas. Examples being the previously mentioned DSA and BLM. So, i may be generalizing a bit but when you collaborate with certain factions...

interesting editorial on CNN: link

Sort of flies in the face of their huge headline lamenting the Gaza's humanitarian crisis.

 

[Da Guru]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

There is a reason Egypt wants no part of mass immigration.
President Sisi of Egypt has no interest in having hundreds of thousands of Gazans on Egyptian soil. They are a security problem, an economic challenge, and Egypt is reeling economically right now.

it's not just that. hamas is tied to muslim brotherhood.

That is another issue. Things have been calm for years in my area and now I am hearing a lot of "Anti-Muslim" talk again.

The "rage day" "Aku-abur" chants while killing people does not help matters. Going to be a mess for a long time.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

There is a reason Egypt wants no part of mass immigration.
President Sisi of Egypt has no interest in having hundreds of thousands of Gazans on Egyptian soil. They are a security problem, an economic challenge, and Egypt is reeling economically right now.

it's not just that. hamas is tied to muslim brotherhood.

That is another issue. Things have been calm for years in my area and now I am hearing a lot of "Anti-Muslim" talk again.

The "rage day" "Aku-abur" chants while killing people does not help matters. Going to be a mess for a long time.

Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

hamas roots are muslim brotherhood which caused a civil war, pseudo coup, and lots of issues in Egypt about a decade ago.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

You know, I almost didn't post this earlier this week, because I was worried that it was too inflammatory. And I have no interest in cataloging every example of this sort of thing. But I thought "It's probably a good idea to record this for the record just in case, a few months down the road, people try to deny that this ever happened." I never expected that the denial and gaslighting would start literally a week after the attacks themselves.

My goodness.

Edit: They deleted their post because they're cowards, and you'll pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about, so here you go.

 

[the moops]

i never understood the lefts love of hamas.

they stand against so many things that they consider foundational truths

women's rights
religious freedom
free speech
fair elections
etc

I am unaware of any sizeable support of Hamas from the left. The left sympathizes with the plight of people stuck in Gaza. There is a difference

 

[the moops]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

You know, I almost didn't post this earlier this week, because I was worried that it was too inflammatory. And I have no interest in cataloging every example of this sort of thing. But I thought "It's probably a good idea to record this for the record just in case, a few months down the road, people try to deny that this ever happened." I never expected that the denial and gaslighting would start literally a week after the attacks themselves.

My goodness.

Edit: They deleted their post because they're cowards, and you'll pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about, so here you go.

There are for sure people on the left that support Hamas. There are people all over the political spectrum that support some ridiculous ****. BLM Chicago does in no way represent the left

 

[IvanKaramazov]

There are for sure people on the left that support Hamas. There are people all over the political spectrum that support some ridiculous ****. BLM Chicago does in no way represent the left

I don't want to go too far down this avenue, but yes you are right that "not all leftists." Please consider that point fully conceded.

 

[TheAristocrat]

Lots of good information (some I knew and some I didn't) and discussion in here. Glad this thread didn't go the way I thought it would.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

some news bullets:

El-Sisi (Egyptian leader) says they will send aid but won't open the border, even though there were reports of an agreement between Qatar, Egypt, US and Israel to let Americans thru (as of earlier today). (WSJ)


Iran warns Israel through UN against ground offensive in Gaza


BREAKING: President Biden spoke to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. This was their 1st call since the Gaza war started (and I think the 1st since May 2021). Abbas told Biden that humanitarian corridors must be urgently opened in Gaza to provide fuel, medicine and food


2 of our ships, USS Ford and Eisenhower are heading to the Mediterranean (https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live...r-10-14-23/h_1ac1e61771840b82926afbd4d4571138) it seems mainly to help deter Iran from doing anything stupid.


NBC reporting 29 US citizens confirmed dead and at least 15 un accounted for (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...it-shelling-israel-defends-evacuat-rcna120419)

 

[Snotbubbles]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

Yeah and let’s not be naive. The entire adult population of Gaza is well aware of what Hamas is doing and what their goals were.

So let’s stop with the semantics of most are civilians that are innocent.

It’s the same semantics that @IvanKaramazov alluded to several pages back about German civilians.

Were we concerned with them during the war when Germany was being bombarded unmercifully?

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

War sucks…..no other way to put it….but make no mistake…this won’t be over until Gaza is completely wiped of any traces of Hamas.

And our country (USA) has given Israel it’s full fledged support to complete it’s
mission; that was brought about by the savage cold blooded murder of 1200 and counting innocent lives.

Gaza is in Israel. Let me make that also clear. The West Bank is also…..in Israel.

She is surrounded by enemies and the daily life in Israel is one of never knowing if you will have a missile fired at your home or a bus bombing or a club bombing or a school bombing…..Israel has shown great restraint for decades.

Gloves are now off and rightfully so.

Gonna step out of the thread for a bit because this is close to home for me and I don’t want to explode soon.

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Anyway…..peace will come in due time but it will be a ways off as this war won’t be over anytime soon.

Use our war on terrorists after 9/11 as an example. This will take some time.

Just praying for my family to stay safe, and that no more innocent Israeli civilians suffer the same fates of those 1200 plus souls.

This attack on Israel has shaken my soul. Much like 911 did. Things really get put into perspective when an event like this happens.

If history has taught us anything, peace will not come. The eventual reality is that a country like Iran will become nuclear capable then all bets are off.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

I would have no problem pointing you to actual flesh and blood people in my personal professional orbit who are openly pro-Hamas. Gaslighting doesn't work when people can see this with their own two eyes.

It was a topic on Bill Maher's Friday show on HBO
-It sure seems like there is quite a lot of open anti-Israel(I won't use the other common term) coming from the Left.
That said, you cannot pin it on one party or one type of people.

There is a lot of hatred towards the oldest organized religion that spawned the Old Testament...5,000 years ago, do i have that right?
Let's use our heads. Joe has been amazing allowing for open dialogue and open communication, let's not try and do a quick hot take based on TV/media which wants us all up in arms one way or the other so you'll keep watching these news outlets.

And I'm not aiming that at you specifically IK, I love your posts. You are great at landing the plane and making sure the focus stays on the bastards who did this.

 

[quick-hands]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

they basically act as a distributor. for which they decide how big their cut is. don't make them out as some noble anything they are a gang.

at some point the populous has to decide they had enough. lots of weapons around.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

i never understood the lefts love of hamas.

they stand against so many things that they consider foundational truths

women's rights
religious freedom
free speech
fair elections
etc

I am unaware of any sizeable support of Hamas from the left. The left sympathizes with the plight of people stuck in Gaza. There is a difference

But it's hard to understand why 95% of them vote Left when there is a loud drum beat for Gaza.Palestine
3 of the 12 I had on the tennis courts this morning are of Jewish faith
I asked them all point blank why they vote that way when we went to the clubhouse and one of them actually said he's thinking of switching or going independent
I'm just sharing, I live in South Florida and we have a pretty large Jewish population.

I was just curious, these are all people I've known for years, i wasn't trying to get an argument going with them, I wanted to genuinely understand and hear them.
I agree Moops, I think the people who are expressing compassion for people in Gaza, they're not necessarily anti-Israel
Not everyone is up on all the news or takes the time like we are to hear each other out and try to get a better understanding.
We've had people raising their hands admitting they don't understand the dynamics over there but would like to if someone would calmly discuss it with them.

-All that said, it is disturbing to see people that don't seem to condemn the people who carried out this heinous act and I think that's where some folks raise their eyebrows

You and IK are doing a great job in here, I'm glad you're posting and sharing.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Can you be a little more specific as to the “left’s love for Hamas”? Virtually every Democratic member of the US Congress has condemned Hamas’ attack. It’s a gross generalization to suggest that a few idiots at a protest who say disgusting things somehow represent the left while ignoring the unanimity amongst liberal politicians condemning Hamas.

Folks who are anti-war crimes (myself included) are getting conflated with supporting Hamas. I don’t want 300 Israeli children killed, and I don’t want 50,000 Palestinian children killed. Cutting off food and water to 2 million people is a war crime.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you know what specific group was polled?

Because ~half of the population is under 18, 40% under 14. Although they may grow up to support Hamas (given desparate circumstances and the power of propaganda, that’s fairly likely), I don’t think those kids are voting.

It’s probably 60% of adults, so like a third of the overall Gaza population. That hardly reflects the majority will of all Palestinians.

ETA I see it’s been covered, and expounded upon by @The Duff Man above. Carry on.

I certainly never said it represents ALL Palestinians. But look, pick a widely-accepted-as-abhorrent viewpoint that is still lingering throughout the US. The viewpoint that blacks are not equal to whites or that being gay can be programmed out of you. If it was approaching 5% of the population of the US that openly supported those views I'd be surprised. This is 6 out of 10 adults that support not just a viewpoint, but a group that actually carries out these murderous campaigns. To waive it off as "only a third of the population" is really weird.

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the “colonialism think” happening at universities and how it eventually filters into the mainstream. This is out of a university in Toronto, I know there was something similar at Harvard. It is just disgusting and appalling.

——————-
Concerns surfaced after a joint statement was published Thursday night by three unions — the York Federation of Students, York University Graduate Student Association, and the Glendon College Student Union — eliciting swift condemnation from administrators and politicians.

“Recently, in a strong act of resistance, the Palestinian people tore down and crossed the illegitimate border fence erected by the settler-colonial apartheid state of so-called Israel. These resistance efforts are a direct response to the ongoing and violent occupation of Palestine,” they wrote in the letter.

“...these events serve as a reminder that resistance against colonial violence is justified and necessary. This is ‘decolonization’ and ‘land-back’ actualized as we continue to see the Palestinian people stand firm in their resistance against their oppressors.”

Although I’m far from a history buff, seems like Jews were there well before the Palestinians. But weren’t Canaanites the actual indigenous people in modern-day Israel/Palestine?

For people arguing Israel is colonizing Palestine, how do they explain the occupants of the land before the Ottoman empire and spread of Islam?

Is anyone advocating returning the land to the descendants of the Canaanites? Looks like Lebanese are the heirs apparent, genetically.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you know what specific group was polled?

Because ~half of the population is under 18, 40% under 14. Although they may grow up to support Hamas (given desparate circumstances and the power of propaganda, that’s fairly likely), I don’t think those kids are voting.

It’s probably 60% of adults, so like a third of the overall Gaza population. That hardly reflects the majority will of all Palestinians.

ETA I see it’s been covered, and expounded upon by @The Duff Man above. Carry on.

I certainly never said it represents ALL Palestinians. But look, pick a widely-accepted-as-abhorrent viewpoint that is still lingering throughout the US. The viewpoint that blacks are not equal to whites or that being gay can be programmed out of you. If it was approaching 5% of the population of the US that openly supported those views I'd be surprised. This is 6 out of 10 adults that support not just a viewpoint, but a group that actually carries out these murderous campaigns. To waive it off as "only a third of the population" is really weird.

I‘m sure many Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and that is deplorable. But for all the reasons discussed above, I’m not sure

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the “colonialism think” happening at universities and how it eventually filters into the mainstream. This is out of a university in Toronto, I know there was something similar at Harvard. It is just disgusting and appalling.

——————-
Concerns surfaced after a joint statement was published Thursday night by three unions — the York Federation of Students, York University Graduate Student Association, and the Glendon College Student Union — eliciting swift condemnation from administrators and politicians.

“Recently, in a strong act of resistance, the Palestinian people tore down and crossed the illegitimate border fence erected by the settler-colonial apartheid state of so-called Israel. These resistance efforts are a direct response to the ongoing and violent occupation of Palestine,” they wrote in the letter.

“...these events serve as a reminder that resistance against colonial violence is justified and necessary. This is ‘decolonization’ and ‘land-back’ actualized as we continue to see the Palestinian people stand firm in their resistance against their oppressors.”

Although I’m far from a history buff, seems like Jews were there well before the Palestinians. But weren’t Canaanites the actual indigenous people in modern-day Israel/Palestine?

For people arguing Israel is colonizing Palestine, how do they explain the occupants of the land before the Ottoman empire and spread of Islam?

Is anyone advocating returning the land to the descendants of the Canaanites? Looks like Lebanese are the heirs apparent, genetically.

Someone's claim to land is only as powerful as their ability to take it and hold it. By rights, the Native Americans have a claim to the United States over all other groups but nobody believes that they have any ability to actually enforce their right.

 

[Terminalxylem]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

As it was when the Palestinian people voted Hamas into the majority. Again, there are obviously innocent people that want no violence to come to anyone, but the idea that Hamas is some rogue element within Gaza that represents a minority opinion is nuts. Its should also be noted that within their parliament are also minority political groups like Palestinian Liberation Front and the PFLP which are both designated terrorist organizations.

Some of Hamas’ actions/policies are accepted by most Gazans, I’m sure, in part because the alternative(s) don’t seem any better. On top of that, the average citizen probably feels pretty powerless to effect real change.

But I have a hard time believing most Palestinians, even in Gaza, approve of slaughtering women, children and other “innocent” Israeli civilians.

 

[Jayrod]

Yeah, saying "we were here first, so it is our land" is comical at best.

I made a more extensive post on it early on in here.

 

[Terminalxylem]

the lefts love of hamas

Going to need a link on this one.

Or are you saying Palestinians = Hamas?

I would have no problem pointing you to actual flesh and blood people in my personal professional orbit who are openly pro-Hamas. Gaslighting doesn't work when people can see this with their own two eyes.

Who are these people, and how do they show their support?