War in Israel (2 Viewers)

[parasaurolophus]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Certainly some do. Over a million kids in there, they didn't elect anyone.

Of course they deserve compassion. That is why our leaders should be spending their time figuring out what a post Hamas Gaza looks like. How to get them support. How to rebuild.

That would be compassion.

I would argue that the absolute meanest thing that could be done right now is to convince Israel to stop destroying Hamas. We know 100% for certain with Hamas in charge the Palestinians are doomed to a miserable life.

If they could clear out Hamas and even just return it to what it was before them, that would mean 90% of Palestinians would be economically self sufficient. Digging illegal tunnels would no longer be the best job that kids have to look forward to.

So for me, when people start arguing against what Israel is doing right now, I think that their logic is seriously flawed and I don't feel they have anything close to a moral high ground. I think they don't understand just how bad Hamas has been BEFORE the most recent events. They never offer a plan to get rid of Hamas and are just looking at the current single events.

When the enemy has an endless supply of human shields and you know the enemy is evil enough to continuously use them you can't just stand by and watch them and say oh darn, I guess Hamas gets to stick around and keep depriving these people of freedom and any kind of life.

 

[Todem]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Certainly some do. Over a million kids in there, they didn't elect anyone.

Of course they deserve compassion. That is why our leaders should be spending their time figuring out what a post Hamas Gaza looks like. How to get them support. How to rebuild.

That would be compassion.

I would argue that the absolute meanest thing that could be done right now is to convince Israel to stop destroying Hamas. We know 100% for certain with Hamas in charge the Palestinians are doomed to a miserable life.

If they could clear out Hamas and even just return it to what it was before them, that would mean 90% of Palestinians would be economically self sufficient. Digging illegal tunnels would no longer be the best job that kids have to look forward to.

So for me, when people start arguing against what Israel is doing right now, I think that their logic is seriously flawed and I don't feel they have anything close to a moral high ground. I think they don't understand just how bad Hamas has been BEFORE the most recent events. They never offer a plan to get rid of Hamas and are just looking at the current single events.

When the enemy has an endless supply of human shields and you know the enemy is evil enough to continuously use them you can't just stand by and watch them and say oh darn, I guess Hamas gets to stick around and keep depriving these people of freedom and any kind of life.

That would be the hope right?

 

[unckeyherb]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you have a source for this poll?

This site claims most wanted the seizefire to hold and half wanted to accept the two state solution.

EDIT TO ADD: NO IDEA IF THIS IS CREDIBLE!

Poll Data and article

“According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.”

I've seen https://www.pcpsr.org/ referenced in articles I've read previously. They do a number of public opinion polls of Palestinians. I can't speak to the recency of the poll.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Shoutout and thanks to the folks helping keep this thread discussion good. Thank you.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Unless you think I'm arguing that we should have intentionally killed more German civilians, I have no idea why you would think that.

I don't think you believe that. I guess maybe it is just the flippant sort of tone? I don't know, but it just comes across that way to me. Carry on

I should just post less in this thread. I'm not mad at all or anything, but looking back at the last couple of pages I think the volume is just a little much. Today was a sit-at-my-desk-and-read stuff day which leads to too much social media and too much posting.

No worries regardless. I sincerely think the "German civilian" thing is just a good mental model for how to think about situations like this. None of us feel any personal ill will toward those folks, but you know.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you know what specific group was polled?

Because ~half of the population is under 18, 40% under 14. Although they may grow up to support Hamas (given desparate circumstances and the power of propaganda, that’s fairly likely), I don’t think those kids are voting.

It’s probably 60% of adults, so like a third of the overall Gaza population. That hardly reflects the majority will of all Palestinians.

ETA I see it’s been covered, and expounded upon by @The Duff Man above. Carry on.

 

[quick-hands]

hamas needs to unconditionally surrender

 

[Todem]

hamas needs to unconditionally surrender

These maniacs do not surrender. Ever.

 

[quick-hands]

Unless you think I'm arguing that we should have intentionally killed more German civilians, I have no idea why you would think that.

I don't think you believe that. I guess maybe it is just the flippant sort of tone? I don't know, but it just comes across that way to me. Carry on

I should just post less in this thread. I'm not mad at all or anything, but looking back at the last couple of pages I think the volume is just a little much. Today was a sit-at-my-desk-and-read stuff day which leads to too much social media and too much posting.

No worries regardless. I sincerely think the "German civilian" thing is just a good mental model for how to think about situations like this. None of us feel any personal ill will toward those folks, but you know.

cuz real fbg's long for the psf

 

[unckeyherb]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you know what specific group was polled?

Because ~half of the population is under 18, 40% under 14. Although they may grow up to support Hamas (given desparate circumstances and the power of propaganda, that’s fairly likely), I don’t think those kids are voting.

It’s probably 60% of adults, so like a third of the overall Gaza population. That hardly reflects the majority will of all Palestinians.

ETA I see it’s been covered, and expounded upon by @The Duff Man above. Carry on.

I certainly never said it represents ALL Palestinians. But look, pick a widely-accepted-as-abhorrent viewpoint that is still lingering throughout the US. The viewpoint that blacks are not equal to whites or that being gay can be programmed out of you. If it was approaching 5% of the population of the US that openly supported those views I'd be surprised. This is 6 out of 10 adults that support not just a viewpoint, but a group that actually carries out these murderous campaigns. To waive it off as "only a third of the population" is really weird.

 

[unckeyherb]

Was listening to a few pods and interviews from various folks in the know and in Israel. More than one person saying that this is a different situation than ever before, Israel is really going to go scorched earth and projecting that in a couple of weeks we'll be reading tallies of 20,000+ dead Palestinians. I hope that is not the case.

 

[timschochet]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

I'm an israel supporter, but that is ridiculous.

where are they supposed to go? where will they get food/water/shelter at said location?

sounds like they backed off

 

[Sand]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

The other 40% were kids in school at the time.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

 

[Orange&Blue]

Not endorsing any of these ridiculous news networks but I admire Trey Yingst and his work on the ground, he's in GAZA and actually communicating with Hamas somehow, that seems incredibly dangerous to me, i would not want to be anywhere near the ME right now, you couldn't pay me enough money to do what he does.

And I'm sure there other even more Amazing journalists but this guy seems to go deep into the conflict, unfortunately you gotta tune into the network he reports for, that can be unsettling when he isn't center stage. I would try and maybe find his reports by other means thru social media, I think he's excellent.

His Twitter account

https://twitter.com/TreyYingst/status/1712822636839878919?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

-If you keep scrolling you can see the music festival where this unfolded and an arrest of a Palestinian there, stripped and blindfolded as he is arrested, you would never see that here.

they strip them because of the suicide bomb threat which isn't a problem here

 

[Da Guru]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

There is a reason Egypt wants no part of mass immigration.
President Sisi of Egypt has no interest in having hundreds of thousands of Gazans on Egyptian soil. They are a security problem, an economic challenge, and Egypt is reeling economically right now.

 

[parasaurolophus]

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

This is where you need to look at it from the lens of living in Gaza, not in your FBG mansion.

They already don't have food and water. Their shelter is about to disappear and was complete squalor anyway.

It is an easy choice. Head south if they say get out of the north.

Hamas takes all the money and keeps the pleebs fighting for crumbs.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

Boats to Cyprus? Yes I know it would take a lot of boats for a million people over 24 hours. There is immigration happening in many areas of the world. It is an awful situation.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

They are imploring them (via the UN) to go to south Palestine, not Egypt. I don't know that that is much better, but I would take it to mean the military operations will be focused on northern Palestine (see link I posted upthread). That seems to be, according to the "maps" available online where the majority of the known secret tunnels are, so one could surmise that is where the military operations might be more heavily based.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

Boats to Cyprus? Yes I know it would take a lot of boats for a million people over 24 hours. There is immigration happening in many areas of the world. It is an awful situation.

I did see (on the Twitter machine) an (alleged) UN delegate talking about how they had rehearsed (in the past) rescue-by-sea evacuation efforts and that that, in theory at least, was feasible. Maybe not the full 1.1MM, but def hundreds of thousands able to be removed from imminent danger. Let's face it. At this point, that would be considered a huge victory.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

I'd like to actually agree with Tim on some of this and he's right that the majority of Palestinians do not have jobs or work because they are given the basics by Hamas
Where does Hamas get all these resources to feed 2 Million people?

All roads lead to Iran, there is just no getting around it. They give somewhere in the neighborhood of $700m-$1B to Hamas every year and that's just what the US can track, there's likely more in other gifts and weapons.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

How the hell do you relocate a million people in a day?

How hard is it to travel a few miles?

This isn't a relocation where you go talk to Sally in HR and movers come and pack your stuff up.

This is a get out of the area, now.

There is no HR because the vast majority of people don't work. They live on charity. Because their government puts all available money toward killing Israelis.

The people that do work or run businesses and used to pay 15-20% in taxes now have the privilege of paying 60-70% thanks to Hamas.

I think the primary employer is tunnel construction whereas prior to Hamas rule most areas were economically self sufficient micro economies.

Now after all of this...surely Palestinians would hate Hamas, right????

Nope. Because it turns out the government putting all their effort into killing Jews is actually more important to many of these people than their rapidly increasing child population having things like running water and food.

so you leave... to go where? gaza is surrounded by israel, who is bombing them, and Egypt who has closed their borders.

they go further south to a place that has no food, water, or shelter?

They are imploring them (via the UN) to go to south Palestine, not Egypt. I don't know that that is much better, but I would take it to mean the military operations will be focused on northern Palestine (see link I posted upthread). That seems to be, according to the "maps" available online where the majority of the known secret tunnels are, so one could surmise that is where the military operations might be more heavily based.

These tunnels that Israeli forces are about to go down into in Gaza City, I did see some reports on what they are in for, this is going to be painstakingly slowwwwwwwww

Think of the tunnels in Vietnam and these are much more elaborate and it will be likely loaded with all kinds of booby traps and the like.
I think some folks are misinformed that Israel is just going to line the tanks up and mow over the area, that's not at all what the Ground Operation is and that's what i prefer they call, a ground operation vs an Attack on Gaza which to me sounds like whoever is saying it doesn't feel Israel should be entering Gaza City

Even the term retaliation bothers me when i see it pop on US news feeds. This is a very dangerous and much needed operation to funnel them out and it's going to take a long time.
There will be Israeli soldiers that will be taken hostage, you can be sure of it.

Hamas is really good with propaganda and look no further than all these demonstrations happening right here in the United States with folks waving Palestinian flags
I hope they get all these protestors on video, I've heard CEOs of American companies already say they will not tolerate their employees engaging in these activities
Some of these folks might want to consider future employment in America

Back to these Hamas tunnels, you can't just toss a grenade them, you might even have to use knives and the like down there to take some of them out because you don't want to give away your location by blasting bullets everywhere, think about it.

 

[Jayrod]

Was listening to a few pods and interviews from various folks in the know and in Israel. More than one person saying that this is a different situation than ever before, Israel is really going to go scorched earth and projecting that in a couple of weeks we'll be reading tallies of 20,000+ dead Palestinians. I hope that is not the case.

I'm nowhere near an expert, but in the last 10 years or so I've been following Israeli/Palestinian conflicts pretty closely.

Nothing in that time frame compares to this and from what I've read, it has been 50 years since anything close to this happened to Israel.

They are always on fairly high alert, but declaring war and calling up 300,000 reservists is no half measure. They intend to do the job completely this time and possibly for good. Gaza will be under full Israeli control for the foreseeable future.

 

[[icon]]

I agree with that characterization, but it's worth asking, with the benefit of 20 years' hindsight, did any of our responses to 9/11 make things better?

To be fair this entire exercise is folly as it's impossible to know what would trajectory the world would have taken had we not responded.

Not to say I back our past 20 years in the ME.... but I you're operating under the assumption that 9/11 would have been an isolated attack and not responding would have meant business as usual... I think most people would disagree with you.

 

[[icon]]

IMO no idea if possible.. but would be interesting to set up massive pumps and flood the tunnels under the hospital.

 

[N Zone]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

I'd like to actually agree with Tim on some of this and he's right that the majority of Palestinians do not have jobs or work because they are given the basics by Hamas
Where does Hamas get all these resources to feed 2 Million people?

All roads lead to Iran, there is just no getting around it. They give somewhere in the neighborhood of $700m-$1B to Hamas every year and that's just what the US can track, there's likely more in other gifts and weapons.

Quatar gives $millions of humanitarian aid to the people in the Gaza strip.

 

[Yo Mama]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

There’s a couple problems with this poll, it seems to me. The first is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hamas handles all welfare and charitable organizations within Gaza and for Muslim societies that is a big deal. So their popularity may not have to do so much with their attitude towards Israel.

The second problem is that Hamas are a bunch of armed murderous savages. If such people are running the place where I live, you can be damn sure I’m telling anyone who asks that I love them. Particularly some outside pollster whose every word is watched carefully. You think I want my family shot? of COURSE I love Hamas! I’m amazed that 40% said no.

I'd like to actually agree with Tim on some of this and he's right that the majority of Palestinians do not have jobs or work because they are given the basics by Hamas
Where does Hamas get all these resources to feed 2 Million people?

All roads lead to Iran, there is just no getting around it. They give somewhere in the neighborhood of $700m-$1B to Hamas every year and that's just what the US can track, there's likely more in other gifts and weapons.

There’s a ton of international/UN aid that goes to Palestine to help feed the people. It’s not all coming from Hamas/Iran.

 

[N Zone]

Also, many, for instance 20,000 living in Gaza every day (prior to Oct. 7th) passed into Israel to work to earn money to take back to Gaza
6:40 point in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXgOlnhoxo

 

[Todem]

Israel has warned the people in northern Gaza to relocate to south Gaza in the next 24 hours. That is kinder than I would be at this point.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

I'm an israel supporter, but that is ridiculous.

where are they supposed to go? where will they get food/water/shelter at said location?

sounds like they backed off

Their countrymen in Egypt should be taking in women and children at a minimum and allowing access to Red Cross and Humanitarian workers to help aid the hungry and wounded.

But they have a nice shiny wall up and at this point refuse to allow refuge for them to Sinai…which BTW was donated to Egypt by Israel in the name of peace.

It’s a farce.

 

[The Duff Man]

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the “colonialism think” happening at universities and how it eventually filters into the mainstream. This is out of a university in Toronto, I know there was something similar at Harvard. It is just disgusting and appalling.

——————-
Concerns surfaced after a joint statement was published Thursday night by three unions — the York Federation of Students, York University Graduate Student Association, and the Glendon College Student Union — eliciting swift condemnation from administrators and politicians.

“Recently, in a strong act of resistance, the Palestinian people tore down and crossed the illegitimate border fence erected by the settler-colonial apartheid state of so-called Israel. These resistance efforts are a direct response to the ongoing and violent occupation of Palestine,” they wrote in the letter.

“...these events serve as a reminder that resistance against colonial violence is justified and necessary. This is ‘decolonization’ and ‘land-back’ actualized as we continue to see the Palestinian people stand firm in their resistance against their oppressors.”

 

[Todem]

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the “colonialism think” happening at universities and how it eventually filters into the mainstream. This is out of a university in Toronto, I know there was something similar at Harvard. It is just disgusting and appalling.

——————-
Concerns surfaced after a joint statement was published Thursday night by three unions — the York Federation of Students, York University Graduate Student Association, and the Glendon College Student Union — eliciting swift condemnation from administrators and politicians.

“Recently, in a strong act of resistance, the Palestinian people tore down and crossed the illegitimate border fence erected by the settler-colonial apartheid state of so-called Israel. These resistance efforts are a direct response to the ongoing and violent occupation of Palestine,” they wrote in the letter.

“...these events serve as a reminder that resistance against colonial violence is justified and necessary. This is ‘decolonization’ and ‘land-back’ actualized as we continue to see the Palestinian people stand firm in their resistance against their oppressors.”

Insane……

 

[Todem]

Egypt not allowing US Nationals to cross the border from Gaza

Yet.

They need to wake up and work with Israel and the US to help innocent people find safety. That includes innocent families from Gaza.

Israel is waiting….but soon the wait will be over.

 

[Todem]

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. What we cannot forgive is them for forcing us to kill theirs. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”.

Golda Meir

 

[tri-man 47]

I expect that as Palestinians flee south, members of Hamas blend in with them ...certainly many of those fleeing are filled with hate and, as pointed out before in this thread, will form the next generation of potential terrorists. It seems to me that Israel's intent might include making the situation SO bad that someone else steps in to remove the Palestinians and give them a new home. I just don't see how Israel can accept the risk of allowing the Palestinians to somehow rebuild their lives in Gaza. That just starts the clock for the next conflict.

 

[SoBeDad]

I didn't think it would happen in Florida but they are having Pro Palestinian demonstration in Port Richey, Florida
I really try to steer clear of large groups of people that show up at these rallies, I don't see how they have all that free time on their hands.

There was a pro-Palestinian rally in downtown Miami yesterday, about 200 people, and a couple dozen pro-Israel protesters. It was mostly peaceful as the police kept the groups separated, of course there were heated exchanges. No one was supporting Hamas.

>>Ahmad Ratib, a Palestinian who lives in Miami, held up a sign that read: “It’s not clashes, conflict, two sides. It’s apartheid, colonialism, genocide, state-sanctioned violence!!!”

“I’m here to protest against injustices that have been going on for 75 years — it’s been 75 years of occupation,” he said.

He said his parents live in a village called Yabrud in the West Bank, and he’s visited them every year for the past three years. Each year, he’s had to fly into Jordan and then drive about five hours to the village because even though he’s an American citizen, he can’t fly into Tel Aviv — which is 30 minutes away from the village — because he holds a Palestinian passport. A recent change to Israeli law in July now allows him to fly into Tel Aviv. Similarly, Israeli forces control the highways, commerce, construction, land in many parts of the West Bank, he said. Ratib said “occupied people have a right to resist” but he felt “numb” when he saw the news of Hamas’ attack. “You want to be happy that there’s resistance, he said, “but you’re not happy there’s violence.”<<

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article280448629.html#storylink=cpy

 

[parasaurolophus]

I expect that as Palestinians flee south, members of Hamas blend in with them ...certainly many of those fleeing are filled with hate and, as pointed out before in this thread, will form the next generation of potential terrorists. It seems to me that Israel's intent might include making the situation SO bad that someone else steps in to remove the Palestinians and give them a new home. I just don't see how Israel can accept the risk of allowing the Palestinians to somehow rebuild their lives in Gaza. That just starts the clock for the next conflict.

There is not much cost for Israel to destroy Hamas once they get past caring about public opinion. They can then destroy the tunnels. Destroy all the bases. Destroy all the weaponry.

This drastically weakens their enemy for many years.

For them, that's a pretty big win.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sorry but a dumb question.

As far as a political force in Gaza, how is Hamas seen by the people there?

They were elected, right? https://www.npr.org/2023/10/10/1204826544/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestinian

I want to believe they are seen by the people of Gaza as some crazy abhorrent out there on the fringe terrorist group like the US would see the KKK or something. But it seems they have tons more support than that, right?

Is that accurate?

Aside from ideology, is there another political group that would be comparable to Hamas with regard to power and influence within an area?

 

[BassNBrew]

Sorry but a dumb question.

As far as a political force in Gaza, how is Hamas seen by the people there?

They were elected, right? https://www.npr.org/2023/10/10/1204826544/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestinian

I want to believe they are seen by the people of Gaza as some crazy abhorrent out there on the fringe terrorist group like the US would see the KKK or something. But it seems they have tons more support than that, right?

Is that accurate?

Aside from ideology, is there another political group that would be comparable to Hamas with regard to power and influence within an area?

Russia elected Putin.

Basically picture Russians but add in a helping of thinking you believe in the wrong God.

 

[SWC]

the amount of bloodlust and hard posturing in this thread is well its almost hamas like take that to the bank brohans

 

[SoBeDad]

From a thorough PBS account: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding

>>

How do Palestinians view Hamas?​

The political bifurcation of the West Bank and Gaza is widely unpopular: a June 2023 poll [PDF] by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) showed that one-third of Palestinians consider it the most damaging development for their people since the state of Israel's 1948 creation.

The same poll found that more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas's Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election, while just one-third of Palestinians would choose Abbas.

Additionally, Abbas has indefinitely postponed national elections scheduled for 2021, citing Israel's alleged refusal to let Palestinians in East Jerusalem vote, though observers suspect that Abbas aims to prevent a likely Hamas victory.<<

 

[unckeyherb]

Sorry but a dumb question.

As far as a political force in Gaza, how is Hamas seen by the people there?

They were elected, right? https://www.npr.org/2023/10/10/1204826544/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestinian

I want to believe they are seen by the people of Gaza as some crazy abhorrent out there on the fringe terrorist group like the US would see the KKK or something. But it seems they have tons more support than that, right?

Is that accurate?

Aside from ideology, is there another political group that would be comparable to Hamas with regard to power and influence within an area?

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Fatah party is the “opposition” party to Hamas. Hamas won control against them after winning the election in 2007. I believe they are associated with the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Todem]

the amount of bloodlust and hard posturing in this thread is well its almost hamas like take that to the bank brohans

My people, my mothers homeland….are at war.

This is not posturing. This is about survival.

 

[Spartans Rule]

As far as a political force in Gaza, how is Hamas seen by the people there?

I've been trying to answer this too. Something interesting I found was exit polling from the 2006 election.

The vast majority of voters (75-80%) said they were in favor of peace with Israel and wanted Hamas to change its stance, but they named government corruption and security as the biggest issues in the election and thought Hamas would improve those areas.

Lots of Americans complain that both options in our 2-party system are terrible, so I guess it shouldn't be too shocking that in a place like Palestine they have even worse choices.

 

[SoBeDad]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

 

[unckeyherb]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

 

[massraider]

it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are

What do you think 'Not supporting' Hamas might look like for the average Palestinian family, because 'how can you support Hamas?' becomes trickier when it's more than just a sign in the yard.

Not everyone is cut out to be a revolutionary, most people want to quietly go with the flow.

Any of the ways someone might list that Hamas treats the people badly, I get it. They suck. I am talking about human nature.

 

[Todem]

I posted earlier some polling data suggesting that nearly 60% of Palestinians support hamas. According to Tim it’s not a reliable number due to fear of reprisal which is a fair point I guess. I would still guess the number is high enough to be shocking.

Hamas provides social services to people in Gaza so 60% support is believable. But it's lack of delivering political results and the displacement and death of so many citizens may reduce support long-term. Is there an alternative or fair election on the horizon?

That’s true, but needs context. They do so with all the aid money that comes in from lots of different countries, UN, etc. When given the opportunity to maintain infrastructure for their people, they blow it all up and spend money on arms. When your best possible career as a young Palestinian man is tunnel builder, it seems insane that you’d support the party making that a reality, but here we are.

Yeah and let’s not be naive. The entire adult population of Gaza is well aware of what Hamas is doing and what their goals were.

So let’s stop with the semantics of most are civilians that are innocent.

It’s the same semantics that @IvanKaramazov alluded to several pages back about German civilians.

Were we concerned with them during the war when Germany was being bombarded unmercifully?

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

War sucks…..no other way to put it….but make no mistake…this won’t be over until Gaza is completely wiped of any traces of Hamas.

And our country (USA) has given Israel it’s full fledged support to complete it’s
mission; that was brought about by the savage cold blooded murder of 1200 and counting innocent lives.

Gaza is in Israel. Let me make that also clear. The West Bank is also…..in Israel.

She is surrounded by enemies and the daily life in Israel is one of never knowing if you will have a missile fired at your home or a bus bombing or a club bombing or a school bombing…..Israel has shown great restraint for decades.

Gloves are now off and rightfully so.

Gonna step out of the thread for a bit because this is close to home for me and I don’t want to explode soon.

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Anyway…..peace will come in due time but it will be a ways off as this war won’t be over anytime soon.

Use our war on terrorists after 9/11 as an example. This will take some time.

Just praying for my family to stay safe, and that no more innocent Israeli civilians suffer the same fates of those 1200 plus souls.

This attack on Israel has shaken my soul. Much like 911 did. Things really get put into perspective when an event like this happens.

 

[The Duff Man]

A link was posted that 50% polled in Gaza wanted to end violence and accept the two state solution so at a minimum it seems like half do not support what was done last weekend.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to speculate that others would not support killing and kidnapping of civilians.

What that number could be who knows but hopefully these are the people that will somehow get out with the chance they are being given.

 

[Manster]

A link was posted that 50% polled in Gaza wanted to end violence and accept the two state solution so at a minimum it seems like half do not support what was done last weekend.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to speculate that others would not support killing and kidnapping of civilians.

What that number could be who knows but hopefully these are the people that will somehow get out with the chance they are being given.

For real resolution to happen the people would need to come together and take down the extremist groups......but how? It's similar to Mexico where the cartels control everything. They are very motivated to maintain power, and will use whatever means necessary. The fear of dying is powerful to the average, normal person. I really feel for the the innocent, good folks over there. And I'm grateful I was not born into it