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US Men's National Team (2 Viewers)

El Floppo said:
put it next to your video of him scoring that goal... anybody who can't figure it out really doesn't pay attention to sports. he's been all over ESPN and Fox sports for years. it's kind of the equivalent of trying to pretend you didn't know who Pele was back in the 70s. I had never seen a single soccer game, but I sure as hell knew who and what Pele was (lady-chaser extra-ordinaire).

now- I spend my time in two places that are international and multicultural- NYC and SF area... but I also see more kids wearing Messi shirts than any other shared item of clothing, let alone sports shirts. I know I can't translate what I see in these two metropolitan areas across the country- but neither should you (in the reverse).
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Exactly.  Plus, what does it matter?  The % population who know who guys like Crosby or Mike Trout or Steph Curry or even JJ Watt is going to be a minority of the population despite being stars of their sport because there are large swaths of people who don't follow those sports.  The fact that Messi, who doesn't even play in this country, is ranked as high as he is on those lists shows that even soccer players can breakthrough in this country.

Either way, it simply doesn't matter.  Soccer is clearly gaining momentum in this country and I don't see that changing soon. 

 
mr. furley said:
maybe late to the discussion but isn't a lot of the US struggle related to time?

meaning, i can't go anywhere and see kids just kicking a ball around in the park. @The Gator made, i thought, a good point about skill being developed over time vs. just throwing athletes out there.

for other countries soccer is life. kids play all the time. everywhere. they are learning the skill of dribbling, passing, awareness, etc. through years of drills (whether conscious or subconsciously aware). in the US kids play 11 sports. if you're athletic you play baseball in summer, football in fall, then basketball, maybe tennis or hockey or track, etc.  most kids don't focus on one thing and not just play it year round with coaching and instruction but play it casually with friends... excepting probably basketball.

soccer requires repeated touches of the ball. positional awareness. field vision. 

as a more casual fan of the game without a real rooting interest..... whenever i watch the US vs. a top world team the difference in quality is stark. class teams move the ball so precisely, with a coordinated plan of attack, long passes are spot on, players move with purpose.  when watching the US it looks like "well, i'll just boot this thing as hard as i can and hope it gets close to someone so that they can run after it."

that feels like lack of awareness, lack of time.  like watching someone learning a sport on the fly who has a general idea of what to do but is missing the nuance that comes with experience. think someone that played 1 year of low level college ball, blows away scouts at the NFL combine with his measurables, can run like a deer but has a 5 cent head, can't run a pattern or get open. you can see those guys mechanically moving about the field, thinking way too much and just looking awkward.

that's how US soccer looks a lot to me :shrug:  there are periodic bursts, flashes of potential but largely it looks like unpolished play. guys with 1 skill or 1 above average ability but without the total understanding.
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good stuff, furls. I like the combine comparison.

I was having dinner with one of my best friends from HS last night (instead of watching the game) who I hadn't seen in almost 20 years because he moved to Germany. he wasn't a soccer player, but his 13 yo kid sure as hell is. he made the comment that soccer in Germany is liking taking Football, Baseball, Basketball and Hockey and then wrapping them up into one sport. it IS sport there.

agree with you (and my Romanian youth coach- who was also a record breaking, national champion Div 1 college coach) that US kids are presented with so many choices that their abilities can often get diluted, especially early on when the fundamentals are being laid down. I think those of us who have been around this a long time have been watching the pro acadamies with a sharp attention, hoping that some of the acute focus will be put on the soccer field earlier.

we always have to keep in mind that we've only had a legitimate pro league for just 20 years, and access to the sport around the world for even less. that's only one generation who has grown up getting to see the sport live or maybe on tv and look at it as a day-dream for work just as we all looked theNFL or MLB. as a result, the culture for soccer just hasn't germinated enough to blossom yet. there are a bunch of us soccer nerds who have been tilling the soil quietly for years but it's going to take this generation that's grown up surrounded by the sport to run things, have kids, and the put all of that "culture" into their kids before the US will really and consistently compete with the world leaders.

 
I like you soccer :nerd:  btw, I usually stalk your thread looking for nuggets (not a lot of Serie A chat though). This has been fun. :thumbup:  

 
They have this game on the TVs in my office. While I'm far from someone who enjoys soccer, this game has been entertaining. 

Nice goal by Ronaldo right thur.

 
shader said:
Gator, know anything about the Liverpool youth academies here?  They seem to have 1 in California, 1 in Florida, 1 in South Carolina, 1 in Michigan and 3 in Texas..

Ironically, 3 of those states are recruiting hotbeds (in college football).

Are other EPL teams doing this?  I think it's a brilliant idea and if I owned an EPL or La Liga team, I'd build academies all across America.  

The key, of course, is to make soccer "cool" to the best athletes in school.  That's easier said than done, but the concussion stuff in American football has to a a positive as we move forward.
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Same as every other pay for play academy.  My son's team plays them in Austin.  They aren't very good.  It's just advertising, nothing more.

 
Buzzbait said:
Agreed. I thought The Z Machine had a very nice analysis with the exception of the Jones comment. I think he still adds a lot of value to the team and has something left in the tank. Two years is still a long way away and he'd be 36 for the WC but right now I think he's still a strong option.
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You're right.  If we need a win, the Jones should be on the field.  If we can handle seeing some others develop, Jones shouldn't, and neither should Deuce.  the 3rd place game is perfect for that experiment.

 
Battles said:
shader said:
Gator, know anything about the Liverpool youth academies here?  They seem to have 1 in California, 1 in Florida, 1 in South Carolina, 1 in Michigan and 3 in Texas..

Ironically, 3 of those states are recruiting hotbeds (in college football).

Are other EPL teams doing this?  I think it's a brilliant idea and if I owned an EPL or La Liga team, I'd build academies all across America.  

The key, of course, is to make soccer "cool" to the best athletes in school.  That's easier said than done, but the concussion stuff in American football has to a a positive as we move forward.
Click to expand...
Same as every other pay for play academy.  My son's team plays them in Austin.  They aren't very good.  It's just advertising, nothing more.
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interesting... and too bad.

I'd think the key isn't the "cool" factor- but the $$ factor. if kids look up and see MLS players making more than $60k as a min salary, and instead are making money similar to the other sports- that's when they'll want to push forward into soccer. 

 
The Z Machine said:
You're right.  If we need a win, the Jones should be on the field.  If we can handle seeing some others develop, Jones shouldn't, and neither should Deuce.  the 3rd place game is perfect for that experiment.
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I totally agree with you about that.

I might be in the minority, but I actually want to "win" third place here- this game isn't about an experiment for me... I want some freaking hardware.

 
and btw- speaking of hairdos- the long on top, shaved on the sides thing needs a break. but... I am completely behind the quasi-jerri curl rebirth. we need more rick jameses out there, IMO.

 
shader said:
http://usatodayhss.com/2016/a-european-power-play-elite-soccer-clubs-develop-roots-with-american-youth-academies
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These are just for publicity.  Basically to get teams possession of a emerging market of youth viewers and spenders.  Not players.

In Austin, my son's team is affiliated with Athletico Madrid, there are Liverpool teams, and the powerhouse of the area, Lonestar, have a connection with Roma.  Coaches get a paid vacation overseas to "learn from the best."  Wondo will win the ballon d'or before a US player is funneled through a pay for play academy directly to their affiliate.

 
Battles said:
These are just for publicity.  Basically to get teams possession of a emerging market of youth viewers and spenders.  Not players.

In Austin, my son's team is affiliated with Athletico Madrid, there are Liverpool teams, and the powerhouse of the area, Lonestar, have a connection with Roma.  Coaches get a paid vacation overseas to "learn from the best."  Wondo will win the ballon d'or before a US player is funneled through a pay for play academy directly to their affiliate.
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That's a shame.  Golden opportunity being forfeited.  One day one of the European teams will see the gold mine of development possibilities and do something other than just advertise for their brand.  Whichever club does that could reap huge dividends.

 
shader said:
That's a shame.  Golden opportunity being forfeited.  One day one of the European teams will see the gold mine of development possibilities and do something other than just advertise for their brand.  Whichever club does that could reap huge dividends.
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I'm pretty sure Liga MX is doing a good job plundering US youth for talent.

 
I think we could make an argument that Mexico, the 11th largest country in the world by population, is also a footy underachiever. Maybe even more so, considering the larger importance the sport has had there for a longer time. The Soccernomics guys would probably make the argument that international opportunities, infrastructure and the nation's economy have been generally responsible for this shortcoming but I like to think it's just because they're Mexico.

 
Ned said:
@Battles - how was the game??
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We had a good time.  Definitely a special moment to share with my son.  We sat on the 7th row just behind the corner Messi kicked the free kick into.  Can't beat that for a "I was there" moment.  I'll see if I can put the video of it up somewhere and share it here.

I have to compare it to the Gold Cup game that we went to versus Honduras.  Gold Cup was a lot better experience.  Most of that comes from the crowd.  The Gold Cup had educated fans that wanted to be there for the soccer.  There was friendly banter back and forth between fans on both sides.  It really provided a great environment.  The Copa had a very mixed crowd.  Lots of people were there because it was the event to be at in Houston.  That's okay, but it took away from the experience.  Booing back passes and not being able to deal with correct foul calls was a bit annoying.  So, go see the USMNT in a smaller MLS stadium if you want a better experience.

As far as the game... I was super deflated seeing the starting lineup after getting a ticket for a 3 week expired inspection and battling Houston traffic.  JK pretty much came in the stands and kicked me in the nuts after I was already down.  

We played very narrow and often gave them anything in the outside 1/4 of the field.  That gave them plenty of time to work their way up the middle to find space.  We of course tried to counter attack with a non counter attacking lineup.  There were plenty of times we could have taken touches and worked the ball through, but instead chose to play one touch hail marys to no one.  I'm looking at you Bradley.  Bradley had space to control and switch the ball through midfield and never chose to do that.  Dempsey was working into some spaces and couldn't even get a look.  

Being able to control the ball under pressure is a huge liability for us.  Pulisic, Dempsey and Zardes seem to be the only players we have the ability to simply dribble and then create space to make a simple pass.  Everyone for Argentina can do that.  Calm on the ball and then make simple touches to create 1 yard of space.  We dribble forward into pressure.  Drives me nuts.  

Anyways, I could go on, but those were my in person impressions.  Hoping to see a younger lineup in our loss in the consulation game.  Maybe we all expect too much, but I know we all deserve more than what was shown last night.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
shader said:
That's a shame.  Golden opportunity being forfeited.  One day one of the European teams will see the gold mine of development possibilities and do something other than just advertise for their brand.  Whichever club does that could reap huge dividends.
Click to expand...
Way too early for them to heavily invest at this point.  

Like others have said, the MLS academy system is a good start.  Europe will wait till the money and time invested by the US starts to bear fruit.  At that point they will leverage their connection.

 
Battles said:
Way too early for them to heavily invest at this point.  

Like others have said, the MLS academy system is a good start.  Europe will wait till the money and time invested by the US starts to bear fruit.  At that point they will leverage their connection.
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Yeah, it's a copycat sport.  If there's a pipeline and an advantage to be had, the big clubs will jump in.

 
roadkill1292 said:
I think we could make an argument that Mexico, the 11th largest country in the world by population, is also a footy underachiever. Maybe even more so, considering the larger importance the sport has had there for a longer time. The Soccernomics guys would probably make the argument that international opportunities, infrastructure and the nation's economy have been generally responsible for this shortcoming but I like to think it's just because they're Mexico.
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I don't think population alone is that big a factor.  Of the 20 most populous countries, only Brazil and Germany have had more recent success.  Nigeria has produced some great individual talents and continental success but their system is a disaster.

 
El Floppo said:
good stuff, furls. I like the combine comparison.

I was having dinner with one of my best friends from HS last night (instead of watching the game) who I hadn't seen in almost 20 years because he moved to Germany. he wasn't a soccer player, but his 13 yo kid sure as hell is. he made the comment that soccer in Germany is liking taking Football, Baseball, Basketball and Hockey and then wrapping them up into one sport. it IS sport there.

agree with you (and my Romanian youth coach- who was also a record breaking, national champion Div 1 college coach) that US kids are presented with so many choices that their abilities can often get diluted, especially early on when the fundamentals are being laid down. I think those of us who have been around this a long time have been watching the pro acadamies with a sharp attention, hoping that some of the acute focus will be put on the soccer field earlier.

we always have to keep in mind that we've only had a legitimate pro league for just 20 years, and access to the sport around the world for even less. that's only one generation who has grown up getting to see the sport live or maybe on tv and look at it as a day-dream for work just as we all looked theNFL or MLB. as a result, the culture for soccer just hasn't germinated enough to blossom yet. there are a bunch of us soccer nerds who have been tilling the soil quietly for years but it's going to take this generation that's grown up surrounded by the sport to run things, have kids, and the put all of that "culture" into their kids before the US will really and consistently compete with the world leaders.
Click to expand...
Not until our best athletes choose soccer as their sport will we ever really compete on a national level.  Right now, soccer doesn't even come close to syphoning off young elite athletes.  And frankly, I don't see that changing any time soon with the competition of the big 3 plus lacrosse, track, etc requiring basically year round commitment.  

 
The athletes for american football and basketball are very different than the athletes for soccer.  Just look at the diversity of body shapes that make up the pro ranks in Europe.  hell, just look at the 2 best players in the world right now for a dichotomy of body shapes.  Both are excellent athletes, but very different bodies.  Football has some diversity, but if you can't put on 230+ lbs. and still be able to be the fastest guy on the field, you're not playing pro football.  Basketball you need to be over 6' 6" really.  Under that you better be something really really special (Iverson, Curry, etc.)

My point is that those two sports have much tighter body type filtering than soccer, and that the athletes are very different.  Stamina is more important in soccer than any other sport.  Being able to sprint 70 yards after 90+ minutes aint for everyone.

 
crap, I can't remember now if I kept the game or deleted it off of my dvr, I need to make sure to get a pic of the Argentina fan they kept showing at the start of the match, she had ummm spectacular soccer boobs.

 
did Iceland need the win to advance? or were they already through with the tie, and the win only counting as bonus points and/or determine exactly who they played next?

 
Me (teasing my 5 yr old):  you want me to put the soccer on up here instead of Word World?

Kid:  No, I don't like watching soccer.

Me:  I thought you loved soccer?

Kid:  I only like it when Liverpool is playing.

 
roadkill1292 said:
I think we could make an argument that Mexico, the 11th largest country in the world by population, is also a footy underachiever. Maybe even more so, considering the larger importance the sport has had there for a longer time. The Soccernomics guys would probably make the argument that international opportunities, infrastructure and the nation's economy have been generally responsible for this shortcoming but I like to think it's just because they're Mexico.
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funny- I was thinking before that cataclysmically awesome loss v chile- that Mexico deserves to be considered a world power based on their continued  performance in the WC and other competitions. they routinely get out of group stages, putting them right into consistent top 20-10 status. yeah- maybe flirting top 10. not many teams have been as consistent as them, even though they've never won it all (and not many have). most euro and conmebol teams come and go, with higher ceilings- but they've been right there for as long as I've been alive. oly gold and youth wcs add some umph to that.

 
El Floppo said:
funny- I was thinking before that cataclysmically awesome loss v chile- that Mexico deserves to be considered a world power based on their continued  performance in the WC and other competitions. they routinely get out of group stages, putting them right into consistent top 20-10 status. yeah- maybe flirting top 10. not many teams have been as consistent as them, even though they've never won it all (and not many have). most euro and conmebol teams come and go, with higher ceilings- but they've been right there for as long as I've been alive. oly gold and youth wcs add some umph to that.
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but really- #### them.

 
wdcrob said:
Me (teasing my 5 yr old):  you want me to put the soccer on up here instead of Word World?

Kid:  No, I don't like watching soccer.

Me:  I thought you loved soccer?

Kid:  I only like it when Liverpool is playing.
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At least he already knows that's not soccer....

 
As Eephus correctly notes above, population alone is not the only important factor in international success but it is a big one, especially in the case of Mexico where the sport has long been important. In most of the other countries larger than Mexico, the game just isn't that big a deal or else the population has been held back by economic and cultural reasons. There really hasn't been a futbol infrastructure in Nigeria, India, China or the U.S. that would take advantage of the talent pool.

I just don't see any logistical reasons why Mexico could not have been producing consistent talent and occasional challengers for best in the world like some of the other powers in their numerical weight class.

 
roadkill1292 said:
As Eephus correctly notes above, population alone is not the only important factor in international success but it is a big one, especially in the case of Mexico where the sport has long been important. In most of the other countries larger than Mexico, the game just isn't that big a deal or else the population has been held back by economic and cultural reasons. There really hasn't been a futbol infrastructure in Nigeria, India, China or the U.S. that would take advantage of the talent pool.

I just don't see any logistical reasons why Mexico could not have been producing consistent talent and occasional challengers for best in the world like some of the other powers in their numerical weight class.
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I've heard some eugenics based theories on this but I don't think that discussion would end well.

 
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