Shooting at Texas school - Kids among victims (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

My dad on text message was complaining about what a mess this whole situation is, and about how we may need more heavily armed guards at schools to protect the kids.

The fact that this would even occur to someone as something to consider should be far more alarming to the people of our country than it is.  Then again, I see who they vote off American Idol and who wins every year now, it's become pretty clear what we're dealing with here.

Canada looking better by the minute. 

 

[jobarules]

My biggest question is :  are they really?    From my reading, training on firearms themselves is pretty limited for the average cop, let alone a shootout situation like this.   

Maybe now, but I am also not in agreement that a 20year vet (throwing it out there, I have 0 clue how old the cops were in this case) knew that shootouts at schools would be what they are signing up for, especially in smaller towns.  

Im 99.9% sure all cops go through some sort of active shooter drills.

 

[KarmaPolice]

HERE was an article I bookmarked awhile ago that I thought was interesting during the defund the police debates.  

So average training is way down vs. other examples in a country where every person could be possibly armed?   I think we way overestimate what the average police officer is trained for and can handle.  

 

[Navin Johnson]

People see "To Protect and to Serve" on cop cars and think it's real. It's not. The police are not for protection, they're for law enforcement.

Calling them cowards here goes too far, IMO. They were likely armed only with handguns versus a guy with an automatic rifle. To expect them to rush headlong into the line of fire to be some sort of bullet sponges is not really reasonable. It was a no-win situation. 

Why it seems to have taken so long to respond with appropriate (SWAT or what have you) force does seem like a good question.

Shouldn't have taken the job then.  I'll bet dollars to donuts that they are storming that place if it is one of their own in danger.

 

[fred_1_15301]

I don't know how anyone can actually defend the actions of those cops.  It's pretty simplistic to me:

1. They had their own guns

2. They're trained to use those guns.

3. They far outnumbered the shooter

4.  It's their job

I guess it's hard to say what anyone would do in the heat of the moment but a complete lack of action by any one of those cops just seems absurd.  

ETA - well I guess they were "controlling" the mob of desperate parents outside so not a complete lack of action.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Im 99.9% sure all cops go through some sort of active shooter drills.

Enough to have a high level of proficiency in the event something happens, or a couple times they go through some drills?   

I am not trying to belittle cops or what they go through, I am trying to point out how little training they have.  These shootings, while scary and traumatic, are 1 in a 1,000,000 events and I don't imagine or expect the average police officer to have proper training to handle an shootout while being outgunned effectively.   I could be wrong and there are more and more classes and training out there about this, I am just basing this on looking at hours of training total, how much weapons training they have, and how much time can realistically be dedicated in training for events like this.  

 

[jobarules]

Enough to have a high level of proficiency in the event something happens, or a couple times they go through some drills?   

I am not trying to belittle cops or what they go through, I am trying to point out how little training they have.  These shootings, while scary and traumatic, are 1 in a 1,000,000 events and I don't imagine or expect the average police officer to have proper training to handle an shootout while being outgunned effectively.   I could be wrong and there are more and more classes and training out there about this, I am just basing this on looking at hours of training total, how much weapons training they have, and how much time can realistically be dedicated in training for events like this.  

Who cares about high level? Who had more experience and training, the cops or 18 year old loser who bought his guns two weeks ago?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

People see "To Protect and to Serve" on cop cars and think it's real. It's not. The police are not for protection, they're for law enforcement.

Calling them cowards here goes too far, IMO. They were likely armed only with handguns versus a guy with an automatic rifle. To expect them to rush headlong into the line of fire to be some sort of bullet sponges is not really reasonable. It was a no-win situation. 

Why it seems to have taken so long to respond with appropriate (SWAT or what have you) force does seem like a good question.

No, if these reports are true they are the very worst form of cowards possible.  

 

[Max Power]

southpaw

@nycsouthpaw

According to officials:

- the shooter went in a classroom and locked the door

- police on scene left him in there - when border patrol showed up they couldn’t break down the door

- after 40-60m they got a member of the school staff to unlock it with a key

https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683

I'm confused now.  Did the police/BP engage this kid before he entered the school?  

Or he crashed and walked into the school before anyone responded? 

 

[fred_1_15301]

I'm confused now.  Did the police/BP engage this kid before he entered the school?  

Or he crashed and walked into the school before anyone responded? 

It was reported earlier that he fired at and injured 2 cops before entering the building.  So he definitely was engaged with by someone.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

You know who did protect the students?  The same people who selflessly and courageously protect the students every single time we have a school shooting: the teachers. Unarmed, barely trained in crisis response, and paid a lot less than cops, but they are there for our kids almost without exception.

Think about that next time you cast a vote for the public officials who allocate taxpayer funds.

 

[The Football Freak]

Those police that stayed outside for 40 minutes should be fired and/or charged with something. What an embarrassment.

####### ####### cowards

If this is all true, which it seems to be from video evidence, there’s a special place in hell for cowards like this. And, yes, it is cowardice. Also, to tase and torture parents while their babies are dying and heavily armed officers stand around? What the ####? I am absolutely incensed, and don’t feel like censoring myself right now. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Enough to have a high level of proficiency in the event something happens, or a couple times they go through some drills?   

I am not trying to belittle cops or what they go through, I am trying to point out how little training they have.  These shootings, while scary and traumatic, are 1 in a 1,000,000 events and I don't imagine or expect the average police officer to have proper training to handle an shootout while being outgunned effectively.   I could be wrong and there are more and more classes and training out there about this, I am just basing this on looking at hours of training total, how much weapons training they have, and how much time can realistically be dedicated in training for events like this.  

I mean if we are going to make excuses for the police possibly* not doing their job with an active shooter in a school then what the hell are we doing? 

*I still want more details on exactly what happened - still seems unknown (to us) how things played out

 

[The Football Freak]

No, if these reports are true they are the very worst form of cowards possible.  

Nothing lower. I hope they are all charged, if this is as it seems. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Very sad that if the teacher had just had some forewarning she'd have been able to lock the door and that loser wouldn't have been able to get in.

 

[The Football Freak]

You know who did protect the students?  The same people who selflessly and courageously protect the students every single time we have a school shooting: the teachers. Unarmed, barely trained in crisis response, and paid a lot less than cops, but they are there for our kids almost without exception.

Think about that next time you cast a vote for the public officials who allocate taxpayer funds.

Thank you for this. 

 

[Uwe Blab]

You know who did protect the students?  The same people who selflessly and courageously protect the students every single time we have a school shooting: the teachers. Unarmed, barely trained in crisis response, and paid a lot less than cops, but they are there for our kids almost without exception.

Think about that next time you cast a vote for the public officials who allocate taxpayer funds.

Yep and again, in my community, school levies are the Devil incarnate whilst police levies are a blank check. They just bought a hover craft! We have a few ponds around.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Thank you for this. 

if you're a teacher, no thanks necessary. We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude for doing what you do in America in 2022.

 

[Max Power]

I mean if we are going to make excuses for the police possibly* not doing their job with an active shooter in a school then what the hell are we doing? 

*I still want more details on exactly what happened - still seems unknown (to us) how things played out

southpaw

@nycsouthpaw

·

10hReplying to

@nycsouthpaw

That’s what “barricaded” means to them. He locked the door. And apparently all the lawmen in Texas can’t operate a key by themselves, so a staffer had to do it eventually.

 

[The Football Freak]

if you're a teacher, no thanks necessary. We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude for doing what you do in America in 2022.

I am not, but my mom and stepfather were. I will pass it along to them. This is just hitting very close to home. I live across the street from an elementary school, and my daughter had her last day of high school today. I’m just so mad at what’s happened here, and sick of this world I’m being forced to pass along to my kid. This is not how life should be.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I am not, but my mom and stepfather were. I will pass it along to them. This is just hitting very close to home. I live across the street from an elementary school, and my daughter had her last day of high school today. I’m just so mad at what’s happened here, and sick of this world I’m being forced to pass along to my kid. This is not how life should be.

I hear you.

I live directly across the street from an elementary school too. Two years ago, a car accident spilled out of the street and into the front yard of the school. The cars broke the railing of the stairs leading up to the entrance.  Two years later it remains broken, and no other measures have been taken to protect the students from nearby traffic (it's a very busy four lane avenue). It would probably cost the city less than the salary and benefits of a single cop to address it, but that broken rail just sits there every day as a reminder of how broken we are.

We're so far away from doing the right thing these days that we can't even see it from here.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Who cares about high level? Who had more experience and training, the cops or 18 year old loser who bought his guns two weeks ago?

I don't know their level of training.  My guess is the police, barely, but you are also leaving out facts like they already saw 3 get injured, knew they were outmatched, and knew they were probably busting into a room with a one entrance that would be easily guarded by this loser.  

You guys are free to your opinions, just IMO saying they are cowards, they signed up for this, and that the outcome would have been different if average FBG was there is a bit too far.   Something went wrong, and I am interested in more details.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

I mean if we are going to make excuses for the police possibly* not doing their job with an active shooter in a school then what the hell are we doing? 

*I still want more details on exactly what happened - still seems unknown (to us) how things played out

I am not discounting that possibility.    I have 0 clue what SOP is in this situation, what they were being told by their superiors.   I am advocating for a deep breath and waiting for more details before we decide what happened.   

My opinion is that overall police are probably not overly focused in their training for something of this magnitude and something in the course of their lifetime is a miniscule chance of happening.  

 

[mcintyre1]

Very sad that if the teacher had just had some forewarning she'd have been able to lock the door and that loser wouldn't have been able to get in.

Not for sure, but I've seen reports that the shooter entered the classroom through an internal sliding glass door that connected an empty classroom that the shooter initially entered to their classroom. Given what I know of school active shooter drills I wouldn't be surprised if the teachers did lock the classroom door, but not much you can do about that sliding glass door.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Not for sure, but I've seen reports that the shooter entered the classroom through an internal sliding glass door that connected an empty classroom that the shooter initially entered to their classroom. Given what I know of school active shooter drills I wouldn't be surprised if the teachers did lock the classroom door, but not much you can do about that sliding glass door.

That makes the locks seem purposeless then. 

 

[Max Power]

A barricaded shooter is one of the most difficult situations address.  Add the unknown of innocent people and it really complicates things.  Rushing the situation with pure force isn't recommended.

There are still a lot of details missing from this situation.  Some claims about the police activity at the school are really head-scratching though. 

 

[Max Power]

Not for sure, but I've seen reports that the shooter entered the classroom through an internal sliding glass door that connected an empty classroom that the shooter initially entered to their classroom. Given what I know of school active shooter drills I wouldn't be surprised if the teachers did lock the classroom door, but not much you can do about that sliding glass door.

Where did you see this?  AP reported police couldn't breech the door.  It doesn't make sense if it was a sliding glass door.  

 

[fred_1_15301]

Apparently one of the victim’s dad was a deputy and one of the responders on the scene.  I can’t imagine what was going through his mind.  

 

[FairWarning]

I'd take my chances if my child was inside waiting to be executed but that's just me.

Where would a 2nd grade teacher keep a gun at?  People don’t want guns at home, and now there is a risk in the classroom with a kid getting their hands on one.

 

[menobrown]

before entering the building. 

Other then the police inaction this was my second big question.  How did he just walk in the building? I've been to over 40 schools in Texas, ranging from Elementary to High School and I have never not encountered a locked door during normal school hours.

The only times I've been able to enter a school when students are present is for a special event, like elementary school graduation, so in a case like this this gym/auditorium would be left open but also packed with people. Just have never understood how he just walked into the school in the middle of the day.

 

[Maggot Brain]

https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/1529710536169910272?s=20&t=o39LjBvSGi8FD7iiNV0BiQ

what the #### is going on with the police scanner archive and the missing 18 minutes of audio? has anyone figured out what the hell is happening there?

 

[Max Power]

https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/1529710536169910272?s=20&t=o39LjBvSGi8FD7iiNV0BiQ

what the #### is going on with the police scanner archive and the missing 18 minutes of audio? has anyone figured out what the hell is happening there?

I'd imagine the PD has the missing chunk.  Probably worth releasing, but who knows if they will. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Enough to have a high level of proficiency in the event something happens, or a couple times they go through some drills?   

It's a town of 16k, but it has its own SWAT team. Really no reason to have one if they aren't trained and sat outside the building for 40 minutes while the shooter was butchering kids.

 

[mcintyre1]

Where did you see this?  AP reported police couldn't breech the door.  It doesn't make sense if it was a sliding glass door.  

Sorry, I'll see if I can track it down but I've read dozens of articles so I may not be able to find it. It certainly hasn't been widely claimed, so there's a very good chance it was wrong (especially with how much the reporting changes as more info comes out in these situations). Probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It's a town of 16k, but it has its own SWAT team. Really no reason to have one if they aren't trained and sat outside the building for 40 minutes while the shooter was butchering kids.

Doesn't this point to more the fact that the SWAT team is probably the ones trained for this, and not the local police?   Maybe the outrage should be a little more to the response time or what they were being told to do than them specifically.   

Again, I don't know the exact timeline - do we have this info yet?   The way you phrase it, he was shooting kids for 40mins straight.   My understanding is more that he engaged with a couple cops, got into a classroom, killed everybody in there, and barricaded himself in said room, so they chose to wait for the SWAT team.  
 

My level of anger will be different.  If they thought he was was done and barricaded, that's one thing.  If he was shooting for 40mins and they didn't do anything, that's another thing completely.  

ETA:  yes there are many reasons to still have a police force, even if they aren't trained to effectively handle shooters with multiple rifles. 

 

[the moops]

A barricaded shooter is one of the most difficult situations address.  Add the unknown of innocent people and it really complicates things.  Rushing the situation with pure force isn't recommended.

I have no doubt that this is an incredibly difficult and dangerous situations. But if there is ever a circumstance where you need to rush into a situation it is this exact scenario. A scenario where a ####### loser maniac is slaughtering 7 year olds and their teachers. 

 

[mcintyre1]

Doesn't this point to more the fact that the SWAT team is probably the ones trained for this, and not the local police?   Maybe the outrage should be a little more to the response time or what they were being told to do than them specifically.   

Again, I don't know the exact timeline - do we have this info yet?   The way you phrase it, he was shooting kids for 40mins straight.   My understanding is more that he engaged with a couple cops, got into a classroom, killed everybody in there, and barricaded himself in said room, so they chose to wait for the SWAT team.  
 

My level of anger will be different.  If they thought he was was done and barricaded, that's one thing.  If he was shooting for 40mins and they didn't do anything, that's another thing completely.  

ETA:  yes there are many reasons to still have a police force, even if they aren't trained to effectively handle shooters with multiple rifles. 

One thing I would point out is that, even if he wasn't shooting that entire time, those minutes directly correlate to more lives lost. We know some of the children survived despite being shot. Who knows how many more could have survived without the delay in receiving medical care?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

A barricaded shooter is one of the most difficult situations address.  Add the unknown of innocent people and it really complicates things.  Rushing the situation with pure force isn't recommended.

There are still a lot of details missing from this situation.  Some claims about the police activity at the school are really head-scratching though. 

Very true.

If only there was some sort of group or organization that had a lot more information about what happened, and could convey that to the media and public. 

 

[Max Power]

I have no doubt that this is an incredibly difficult and dangerous situations. But if there is ever a circumstance where you need to rush into a situation it is this exact scenario. A scenario where a ####### loser maniac is slaughtering 7 year olds and their teachers. 

There is a video circulating of police holding down a parent who tried to rush the door.  If that is actually the case, it's pretty inexcusable. 

Pure speculation on my part, I think the delay to rush was due to the police knowing that everyone in the room had already been killed. Horrible thought, but thats what makes the most sense from a tactical standpoint. 

 

[Max Power]

Very true.

If only there was some sort of group or organization that had a lot more information about what happened, and could convey that to the media and public. 

Who do you think is missing the mark right now? I think the story is getting straightened out behind the scenes at the moment. 

 

[mcintyre1]

Where did you see this?  AP reported police couldn't breech the door.  It doesn't make sense if it was a sliding glass door.  

Sorry, I'll see if I can track it down but I've read dozens of articles so I may not be able to find it. It certainly hasn't been widely claimed, so there's a very good chance it was wrong (especially with how much the reporting changes as more info comes out in these situations). Probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

This isn't the article I originally read, but it mentions the shooter entering the classroom through "a door in the middle" with a quote from a little boy who survived in the room by hiding under a table with a tablecloth.

UVALDE, Texas — A fourth grader who survived the mass shooting at Robb Elementary has shared gut-wrenching details about what he witnessed inside that classroom.

"He shot the next person’s door. We have a door in the middle. He opened it. He came in and he crouched a little bit and he said, he said, 'It's time to die,'" the boy recalled.

Authorities say the suspect barricaded himself inside a classroom and opened fire on the people inside, killing 19 children and two teachers before he was killed by law enforcement.

"When I heard the shooting through the door, I told my friend to hide under something so he won't find us," he said. “I was hiding hard. And I was telling my friend to not talk because he is going to hear us.” 

The boy and four others hid under a table that had a tablecloth over it, which may have shielded them from the shooter's view and saved their lives. The boy shared heartbreaking details about what happened in that room.

“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”

He said that once the shooting stopped, he came out from under the table.

“I just opened the curtain. And I just put my hand out,” he said. "I got out with my friend. I knew it was police. I saw the armor and the shield.”
...

 

[Max Power]

We know some of the children survived despite being shot. 

I hadn't heard this.  I thought the shooting was confined to a single classroom and everyone in there was killed. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Who do you think is missing the mark right now? I think the story is getting straightened out behind the scenes at the moment. 

I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm obviously talking about the police, who could provide more information at any time and it would be immediately disseminated to millions of Americans. Instead they've lied. 

The great thing about the truth is that you don't need to straighten out a story behind the scenes before you share it.

 

[belljr]

So imagine you are in college. You are studying to be a teacher.  (Something I did)...so now one of the curriculum classes is gun training....

That's what many think is a solution

 

[belljr]

I read one report that a student said a cop accidentally shot a student.... I have no clue on the validity but that's extra said

 

[HellToupee]

I can’t imagine the anguish of the parents outside wanting the police to move in

 

[Max Power]

This isn't the article I originally read, but it mentions the shooter entering the classroom through "a door in the middle" with a quote from a little boy who survived in the room by hiding under a table with a tablecloth.

Thanks for the link to the article.  Every story is just different enough that these events/timelines don't seem to line up easily. 

 

[Max Power]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm obviously talking about the police, who could provide more information at any time and it would be immediately disseminated to millions of Americans. Instead they've lied. 

The great thing about the truth is that you don't need to straighten out a story behind the scenes before you share it.

It was a dynamic situation with many different agencies.  I think they are trying to get the details cleaned up, but who knows.  What are they lying about? 

 

[Max Power]

So imagine you are in college. You are studying to be a teacher.  (Something I did)...so now I e of the curriculum classes is gun training....

That's what many think is a solution

I'm in the camp of giving teachers gun is about the worst thing schools could do.  They can not be trained adequately for the situation.  Training vs real world is so different, you can't compare the two.  

 

[jobarules]

There is a video circulating of police holding down a parent who tried to rush the door.  If that is actually the case, it's pretty inexcusable. 

Pure speculation on my part, I think the delay to rush was due to the police knowing that everyone in the room had already been killed. Horrible thought, but thats what makes the most sense from a tactical standpoint. 

Everyone in the classroom wasnt killed. One of the surviving kids said he hid under a table cloth and the police asked them if they needed help and a little girl yelled out HELP and the loser shot and killed the little girl.