RIP - Ron Santo (1 Viewer)

[Utter Chaos]

Ron Santo passed away on Thursday at the age of 70.

Is this the year the Veteran's committee finally elects him to the Hall of Fame?

edit: I guess he's not on the Veteran's committee ballot so I'll reword the question.

Does Santo belong in the HOF?

--Ron Santo: 15 years, 2254 H, 342 HR, 1331 RBI, .277 BA, .464 SLG

--Brooks Robinson: 23 years, 2848 H, 268 HR, 1357 RBI, .267 BA, .401 SLG

The biggest knock on Santo is that he took advantage of the friendly confines of Wrigley field.

Santo

--Home: 4075 AB, 1208 H, 216 HR, 743 RBI, .296 BA, .522 SLG

--Away: 4069 AB, 1046 H, 126 HR, 588 RBI, .257 BA, .406 SLG

Robinson

--Home: 5127 AB, 1397 H, 137 HR, 701 RBI, .272 BA, .410 SLG

--Away: 5527 AB, 1451 H, 131 HR, 657 RBI, .263 BA, .392 SLG

 

[EasyMorningRebel]

Named my favorite dog after Santo. Sad day indeed. Maybe now those bastards will let him in the Hall like he deserves.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Can we please just stop with the HOF conversation? He's not in for a reason and his death doesn't change that.

 

[Utter Chaos]

Can we please just stop with the HOF conversation? He's not in for a reason and his death doesn't change that.

Would you care to share the reason why he's not in?

 

[Wrigley]

Can we please just stop with the HOF conversation? He's not in for a reason and his death doesn't change that.

He should have been the 11th third-baseman in It's a shame they didn't put him in before his death.

His number compare pretty favorably to others all ready in

link

either way, it's a sad day in Cubbie land.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Can we please just stop with the HOF conversation? He's not in for a reason and his death doesn't change that.

Would you care to share the reason why he's not in?

Because his numbers don't = HOFerIt's really pretty easy. You want to comapre him to Brooks and Brooks is probably the ideal benchmark to argue Santo's inclusion. Santo's numbers are simply better, but......Brooks played on winning teams which is a big difference maker among voters (4 AL Pennants, 2 WS Pennants to Santo's 0 post season appearances)Brooks was arguably the greatest defensive 3B in the history of baseball when he retired. (16 Gold Gloves to Santo's 5) Ron Santo was guilty of being the 4th fiddle on a team that never won anything. Banks, Williams, Jenkins milked all the HOF votes that were available to a team that was a perennial also-ran.Similar players according to Baseball Reference 1. Dale Murphy (875) 2. Ken Boyer (874) 3. Gary Gaetti (873) 4. Ruben Sierra (865) 5. Chili Davis (865) 6. Bobby Bonilla (863) 7. Brian Downing (861) 8. Graig Nettles (860) 9. Ron Cey (853) 10. Robin Ventura (852)There are no HOFers there. Hell, I'd argue that Dale Murphy has a better argument to be in the HOF. At least that guy won 2 MVPs. Santo never was voted higher than 4th and only finished in the top 5 twice. Speaking of MVPs, back to the Brooks Robinson comparison, Brooks won 1, and was top 5 five times)

 

[Wrigley]

Hall of Fame qualifications(Wikipedia)

When Santo first became eligible for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1980, he was named on less than 4% of all ballots cast, resulting in his removal from the ballot in subsequent years; he was one of several players re-added to the ballot in 1985 following widespread complaints about overlooked candidates, with the remainder of their 15 years of eligibility restored even if this extended beyond the usual limit of 20 years after their last season. After receiving 13% of the vote in the 1985 election, his vote totals increased in 10 of the next 13 years until he received 43% of the vote in his final year on the 1998 ballot, finishing third in the voting behind electee Don Sutton and 2000 inductee Tony Perez. Following revamped voting procedures for the Veterans Committee, which elects players retired for over 20 years, Santo finished third in 2003, tied for first in 2005, and again finished first in voting for the 2007 and 2009 inductions, but fell short of the required number of votes each year. Following further major changes to the Veterans Committee voting process announced in 2010, Santo's next opportunity for admission will come in voting for the induction class of 2012.

Although Santo has become a widely supported candidate for selection, his initial poor showing in balloting has been attributed to various factors, including a longtime tendency of Hall voters to overlook third basemen; at the time Santo retired, only three of the over 120 players elected were third basemen.[citation needed] Also, the fact that Santo's best years occurred in the 1960s, when offensive statistics were relatively lower than in many other eras (due to an enlarged strike zone and raised pitcher's mounds, among other things), has been cited as a factor that has led voters to perhaps overlook him.[15][16] Another possible reason that has been suggested is that voters have not focused sufficiently on Santo's high walk totals and defense. These aspects of play are perhaps more valued by sabermetrics--newer methods of evaluating a baseball player's productivity—than they have been by Hall of Fame voters in the past. For example, Santo's career adjusted on-base plus slugging (OPS+)—the sum of a player's on-base percentage and slugging percentage, adjusted for the park and league in which he played, and expressed as a percentage of the league average—would rank him exactly in the middle of the ten major league third basemen currently in the Hall of Fame.[16][17]

One argument that has been raised against Santo’s Hall of Fame candidacy is that his batting statistics, over the course of his career, were significantly better at home than on the road. He hit 216 of his 342 home runs at home, and only 126 on the road.[18] His career batting average at home was .296, versus .257 on the road.[18] However, several players elected to the Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers Association of America, such as Carl Yastrzemski, Wade Boggs, Jim Rice, and Kirby Puckett, batted significantly better in their home parks than they did on the road.[19][20][21][22] Hall of Famers with a significant differential between their home numbers and road numbers in terms of home runs include Mel Ott (323 homers at home and 188 on the road), Frank Robinson (321 at home, 265 on the road), Jimmie Foxx (299 at home, 235 on the road) and Hank Greenberg (205 at home, 126 on the road).[23][24][25][26] Others have also commented that two Cubs who were in their prime during Santo’s prime years have already been honored by the Hall of Fame (Ferguson Jenkins and Billy Williams), and the team also featured a third Hall of Famer, Ernie Banks, who was arguably past his prime, yet the team never won a pennant. However, the late 1960s Cubs were far from the only team in baseball history with multiple Hall of Famers that did not win a pennant or a World Series.

Santo also fell short of such traditional standards of Hall election as 3,000 hits and 500 home runs; however, by the time his career ended, only two third basemen (Brooks Robinson and Lave Cross) had even collected 2,500 hits, and only one (Eddie Mathews) had reached the 500-home run plateau.[27][28][29][30] Bill James, a notable statistical guru who has ranked Santo among the 100 greatest players of all time (sixth among third basemen), believes his election to the Hall of Fame is long overdue.

Although disappointed at being bypassed, on the day his jersey number was retired by the Cubs, the ever-optimistic and emotional "old Cub" told the cheering Wrigley Field crowd, "This is my Hall of Fame!"[7][31] During Ryne Sandberg's Hall of Fame acceptance speech in 2005, he echoed his support for Santo's selection, saying, "...for what it’s worth, Ron Santo just gained one more vote from the Veterans Committee."[32] On April 19, 2007, the Illinois House of Representatives adopted HB 109 (Cross), urging the Veterans Committee of the Baseball Hall of Fame to elect Ron Santo to the Baseball Hall of Fame. [33]

Thought I'd pass this along.

 

[Utter Chaos]

Can we please just stop with the HOF conversation? He's not in for a reason and his death doesn't change that.

Would you care to share the reason why he's not in?

Because his numbers don't = HOFerIt's really pretty easy. You want to comapre him to Brooks and Brooks is probably the ideal benchmark to argue Santo's inclusion. Santo's numbers are simply better, but......Brooks played on winning teams which is a big difference maker among voters (4 AL Pennants, 2 WS Pennants to Santo's 0 post season appearances)Brooks was arguably the greatest defensive 3B in the history of baseball when he retired. (16 Gold Gloves to Santo's 5) Ron Santo was guilty of being the 4th fiddle on a team that never won anything. Banks, Williams, Jenkins milked all the HOF votes that were available to a team that was a perennial also-ran.Similar players according to Baseball Reference 1. Dale Murphy (875) 2. Ken Boyer (874) 3. Gary Gaetti (873) 4. Ruben Sierra (865) 5. Chili Davis (865) 6. Bobby Bonilla (863) 7. Brian Downing (861) 8. Graig Nettles (860) 9. Ron Cey (853) 10. Robin Ventura (852)There are no HOFers there. Hell, I'd argue that Dale Murphy has a better argument to be in the HOF. At least that guy won 2 MVPs. Santo never was voted higher than 4th and only finished in the top 5 twice. Speaking of MVPs, back to the Brooks Robinson comparison, Brooks won 1, and was top 5 five times)

Nice argument. I'm not saying whether Santo does or doesn't belong and could care less either way. I agree that Santo's offensive numbers are slightly better than Brooks and that Brooks got in mainly on his defense (just like Maz and Ozzie). His performance in the 1970 World Series certainley helped.I do think Santo has some positives that his "similar players" don't have, A) his contribution to the game (20 years as an announcer, B) his popularity (especially in Chicago), and C) his medical conditions. I'm not saying any of these should be enough to put him in the HOF but A and B helped Phil Rizzuto get in. I guess it just goes to show how much emphasis people put on titles.Maybe if the Cubs didn't choke in 1969 it would have been different. The one thing that doesn't make sense is that in 1980, Santo's first year on the ballot, he only got 15 out of 385 votes (3.9%). In Brooks' first year in 1983 he got 344 out of 374 (92.0%). I don't think the difference between the two players was that much.

 

[Balco]

RIP



Everything I have read about him is that he was a great ambassador for the game.

 

[Koya]

RIP Santos.

 

[oso diablo]

Santo = HOF worthy. Best 3B of the 1960s

Ranks 75th all-time in Wins Above Replacement among position players. This ranks him ahead of HOFers like Willie McCovey, Ozzie Smith, Ernie Banks, and Home Run Baker.

I'd put him at about the 30th percentile among HOFers. So it's not a travesty that he's not in, but he belongs in Cooperstown.

p.s. didn't realize before today that Santo had both legs amputated below the knee

 

[Eephus]

Santo was a great player during a tough era for hitter. His love of the game and his accomplishments in spite of diabetes were inspirational. His broadcasting? not so much.

The HoF debate can rage on after his death. While I'm sure Santo would have relished the personal honor, he probably would have gladly traded it in for a Cubs championship during his life.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Bill James has some choice thoughts on the matter of Santo's HOF worthiness.

My favorite part is his digs on Home Run Baker and Rabbit Maranville. Sorry, Bogart.